legs have lost size and definition on 5X5 system?

maradona10

I have been using a 5x5 system but cannot get a pump using squats and deadlifts anymore. While strength has improved (but not by as much as I would like) my muscle size and definition/tone seems to be non existent.

Ive since tried all from 5 to 20reps on squats and still no improvement.

On deadlifts the max reps I use are 5 cos my form deteriorates above that.

can anyone suggest a solution/routine that could help.

my upper body responds better to 5X5 but my legs have really deteriorated in size and definition

thanks

dave80

maradona10 wrote: »

I have been using a 5x5 system but cannot get a pump using squats and deadlifts anymore. While strength has improved (but not by as much as I would like) my muscle size and definition/tone seems to be non existent.

Ive since tried all from 5 to 20reps on squats and still no improvement.

On deadlifts the max reps I use are 5 cos my form deteriorates above that.

can anyone suggest a solution/routine that could help.

my upper body responds better to 5X5 but my legs have really deteriorated in size and definition

thanks

most peoples legs respond better to higher reps, how tall are you? reason i ask is that i find being 6'2" back squats dont hit the quads that much espically on the lower reps, ive had great sucess with front squats for reps of 8

maradona10

im 5ft 10in and i use deep squats recommended by rippetoe. since i stopped doing half squats ive noticed that my strength levels and bodyweight have diminished. i just dont feel as strong anymore

BossArky

maradona10 wrote: »

since i stopped doing half squats ive noticed that my strength levels and bodyweight have diminished. i just dont feel as strong anymore

Maybe full squats are causing you to burn more calories (if your diet is the same) so your bodyweight is decreasing?

You won't be able to squat as much when attempting a full squat vs a half squat... so maybe that is why you feel weaker?

maradona10

i know that you cant use as much weight on full squats but i thought with full range of motion with the full squat the muscle size and weight wouldnt diminish.

also when i said my strength had increased, i meant in the full squat since i started it. its still nowhere near my half squat.

i just dont feel strong in my legs at all anymore and my running has been affected also

peterako

maradona10 wrote: »

i know that you cant use as much weight on full squats but i thought with full range of motion with the full squat the muscle size and weight wouldnt diminish.

also when i said my strength had increased, i meant in the full squat since i started it. its still nowhere near my half squat.

i just dont feel strong in my legs at all anymore and my running has been affected also

Just to give you an idea of Half squats vs Full....

During periods of 2007 and 2008 I was doing HALF squats:

230kg x 10
186kg x 20

I went back to proper full squats late in 2008.

I'm now at 135kg for 5x5.....

I feel in some ways like you....where's the strength gone....

But in reality it's probably still there but there is just such a BIG difference between 1/2 and full....

Also, your Glutes, hams and erectors are brought into the movement more. These are not as involved in the 1/2 squat.

As a result when you go to Full squats these may limit your weights and thus while your body is adapting your Quads may not be over stresed.

I counter this with Sissey Squats directly after my Full Squat sets. OW!

Ultimately I plan to get at least back up to the weights and reps I had before with 1/2 squats....bujt doing FULL ones!

The best leg size increase rep range I have used is 20. But everyone is different. Even better than 5x5 with 1 minute timed rest.

SquatRx on Youtube is a MUST for squatters.

Best of luck,
Peter

maradona10

does anyone know if 1 legged half squats(no weight) or step ups using a low step and heavy weight would be beneficial to complement the full squat.

would they cause the same imbalances that the half squat does

Roper

maradona10 wrote: »

I have been using a 5x5 system but cannot get a pump using squats and deadlifts anymore. While strength has improved (but not by as much as I would like) my muscle size and definition/tone seems to be non existent.

Ive since tried all from 5 to 20reps on squats and still no improvement.

On deadlifts the max reps I use are 5 cos my form deteriorates above that.

can anyone suggest a solution/routine that could help.

my upper body responds better to 5X5 but my legs have really deteriorated in size and definition

thanks

You're not getting a "pump" because you're not training for a "pump" you're now training to be strong like bull!

That being said, you shouldn't have lost much mass from your legs. It may just be that from doing high rep half squats you were getting a pump directly afterward in the dressing room mirror, you won't get the same with 5 reps. But if you're not getting stronger on 5x5 you must be doing something wrong.

kevpants

Some things need clearing up here:

• A pump does not mean muscle gain. It mean your muscle is full of blood. You could do 50 reps with a tiny weight and get a massive pump but you'd be wasting your time
• Half squats are not an exercise. There is no justification for half squats. None.
• Train optimally not maximally. You don't have to burst blood vessels in your eyes or have your legs pumped up to the last to make size and strength gains. That's not how it works.
• Don't be worrying about size and definition and comparing how your legs may have looked to their present state. Just get stronger. If you add 30kg to your squat you are gonna be bigger and stronger than you were.

TKD SC

dave80 wrote: »

most peoples legs respond better to higher reps,

Anyone have more info on this? Is this going back to the 20 rep squat type idea versus say 5x5 or SS 3x5?

Thanks

Simon

kevpants

maradona10 wrote: »

does anyone know if 1 legged half squats(no weight) or step ups using a low step and heavy weight would be beneficial to complement the full squat.

would they cause the same imbalances that the half squat does

Sounds like a bulgarian squat. Sure they help build the quads which will be very active in your squat but to be honest nothing builds a squat like squatting. Everything else is just to try and rectify little weak points. What other exercises are you doing?

peterako

kevpants wrote: »

Some things need clearing up here:

• A pump does not mean muscle gain. It mean your muscle is full of blood. You could do 50 reps with a tiny weight and get a massive pump but you'd be wasting your time
• Half squats are not an exercise. There is no justification for half squats. None.
• Train optimally not maximally. You don't have to burst blood vessels in your eyes or have your legs pumped up to the last to make size and strength gains. That's not how it works.
• Don't be worrying about size and definition and comparing how your legs may have looked to their present state. Just get stronger. If you add 30kg to your squat you are gonna be bigger and stronger than you were.

I agree with 1, 3, 4 (100%).

Partly agree with 2.

Depends on your definition of Half Squat , and on what you are trying to achieve.

To me Half means Parallel or a little above.
Full means below Parallel.

Also, have found in the past that doing 1/4 squats with VERY heavy weights have helped me (mentally) get through sticking points on fuller depth squats. (Though I haven't done 1/4s in 15 years....eeek....)

I said it above, but will say it again.

ANYONE who squats should look at the SquatRx series on YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=C03D688F10C4DE1F

Squat!
Squat big!

Peter

maradona10

kevpants wrote: »

Some things need clearing up here:

• A pump does not mean muscle gain. It mean your muscle is full of blood. You could do 50 reps with a tiny weight and get a massive pump but you'd be wasting your time
• Half squats are not an exercise. There is no justification for half squats. None.
• Train optimally not maximally. You don't have to burst blood vessels in your eyes or have your legs pumped up to the last to make size and strength gains. That's not how it works.
• Don't be worrying about size and definition and comparing how your legs may have looked to their present state. Just get stronger. If you add 30kg to your squat you are gonna be bigger and stronger than you were.

by pump i really meant stimulation. they just dont feel like they have been exercised on 5X5 eventhough overall the exercise is hard work. the legs just dont feel like they have been hit by the exercise. i hope ive explained that clearly

im doing shoulder press, deadlift, chins or bent arm pullovers on different days

kevpants

maradona10 wrote: »

by pump i really meant stimulation. they just dont feel like they have been exercised on 5X5 eventhough overall the exercise is hard work. the legs just dont feel like they have been hit by the exercise. i hope ive explained that clearly

That's because half squats would work your quads and that's about it. It's basically just a squat lockout, the easy part of a squat. Squats aren't just about quads. If you're following Starting Stength your technique should be pretty ok, you're building your quads, hams and glutes as well as your abs and lower back and that's just what gets hit directly. This is why squats will build overall mass.

I'm sure you're examininng the pump or stimulation in your quads and making a comparison there but it's not a fair one. Half squats would isolate the quads whereas squats do what I outlined above.

peterako

kevpants wrote: »

......Squats aren't just about quads. If you're following Starting Stength your technique should be pretty ok, you're building your quads, hams and glutes as well as your abs and lower back and that's just what gets hit directly. This is why squats will build overall mass.

Never a truer word said.

Colm_OReilly

What weight did you start off on with the 5x5?

What weight did you end up with?

Over how long?

Did you eat enough healthy stuff?

madmik

if u do full squatts properly they are extreamly effective

u will have difficultly getting off the toilet for about 4-5 days

stairs will be tough as well

if ur fine after ur squats ur doing sometyhing wrong

everybody wants everything to be easy but

u gotta push urself beyond the realms of comfort if u want serious results

hardtrainer

To be honest, I've never really seen the benefits of 5x5 work. It just doesn't seem to get me anywhere. I know for sure that 20 rep squats are really effective for me. More recently though, I have been doing lots and lots of low rep sets (like 12 sets of 5 reps) for compound lifts. Check out Russian Bear type programs. I've found them extremely effective.

Also full versus half squats. Anything at or below parallel is a full squat. The aim is to get as low as possible while maintaining tension on the glutes, hams and quads. Going completely ATG and you can lose that tension at the very bottom which isn't ideal, but again people have their own prefs. Half squats to me are anything above parallel and they're useless if you are doing them for your ego and for maximal weight on the bar at the expense of doing actual reps with full ROM.

For anyone who had been doing half squats etc and are now doing proper squats but with with reduced weight, you can pre-tire your quads with leg extensions and then do your squats. You'll get the benefits of the squats and you'll also spur on development of all the important ancillary muscles as your quads are already tired.

Adelante

Hi Maradona10,
Its just a mad suggestion and a bit fun for your lunchtime, but have you thought about using a compound machine firstly, for instance the Leg Press, then moving onto isolation machines- the Leg Curl and Leg Extension, Glute machine, then do your squats - back/front, lunges to your heart's content.

I don't know what others may think about using spinning classes to bulid leg muscle, but I find when I do it I put the resistance right up there, until you feel the pain -I mean PAIN, using HIIT can help too, I visualise myself going up Alpe d'hauz with the likes of Contador, or il Pirate by your side, you have to have a set legs, lungs on ya to get up there, sans les drogues!!!:rolleyes:

If your not feeling the burn, mix it up a bit,
is your technique down, how soon do you loose it,
whats your warm-up like general and specific,
are your supplementing -whey,creatine

your body adapts very quickly -adapability.
They have some really good stuff here these guys and gals know there stuff.