Stretching and Nutrition .......How important are they ?

Sosa

I thought that i would put both these questions together.

Stretching

When i started running,i stretched for at least 10-15 minutes after every run....now i stretch only every now and then.

I think i need to get back into it ...but having said that,i played basketball for about 15 years and only stretched when the coach was watching ...and it never did me any harm then either.

Should you stretch pre and post running ?

Nutrition

I dont really watch what i eat to be honest,now i dont do the dog either,just have a very sweet tooth.
When im doing the shopping i do read the back of most things i buy.
I get crackers,granola,risotto,ravioli,cous cous for example because i know they are loaded with carbs ..
With lent coming up,i give up all sweets,desserts and chocolates for the whole 40 days and nights,so i dont want to be losing to much weight over that period.
I used to do it to lose a bit of weight now i dont need to but want to keep it going anyway
Im around 12st ( i was over 13st this time last year )...but dont want to be going under that and with no sh*t food over lent im a bit concerned.....

Any suggestions on high carb tasty food would be appreciated

Running Bing

Sosa wrote: »

Im around 12st ( i was over 13st this time last year )...but dont want to be going under that and with no sh*t food over lent im a bit concerned.....

What height are you and how much of that is body fat (as opposed to muscle)?


If you can afford to lose weight it makes a big difference to running performance.

cfitz

Why don't you want to go under 12 stone? Are you 20ft tall?

Supercell

Stretching seems to be so 70's these days , at least before exercise, afterwards still seems to be recommended.
That said i still feel better doing a little stretching of parts that get sore before running and start gently to warm the muscles up.
Thats my unprofessional tuppance on it.

Racing Flat

How important are stretching and nutrition?

IMHO:

Stretching - not at all

Nutrition - very

Sosa

Babybing wrote: »

What height are you and how much of that is body fat (as opposed to muscle )

Im around 5ft 9"...no idea about body fat

Sosa

Racing Flat wrote: »

How important are stretching and nutrition?

IMHO:

Stretching - not at all

Nutrition - very

What would you recommend eating,Racing Flat ?

Racing Flat

Sosa wrote: »

Im around 12st ( i was over 13st this time last year )...but dont want to be going under that and with no sh*t food over lent im a bit concerned.....

Any suggestions on high carb tasty food would be appreciated

If you keep running regularly you will more than likely continue to lose weight, depending on what height you are. Even fellows 6 foot probably wouldn't want to be any more than 11.5stone if they wanted peak performances. Steve Cram was only about 10.5 stone and he was over 6 foot. And I don't think he looked unwell or weedy or anything - sure didn't Kellogs Start use him as the picture of health in those ads where he was jogging in Colorado and finished up with a bowl of Start. (I bet he really had porridge though:P).

Tasty 'high carb food' - the carb bit probably won't be too tasty e.g. rice or pasta, but what you add to them in terms of sauces, curries etc. (preferably preservative free, i.e. not out of a jar) will make a tasty mean. Not to mention a bit of steak or fish...Shels4ever will be the man for the recipies. BTW probably better off with brown rice and wholemeal pasta as they are a more slow release form of energy, but I'm not too up on this, tunney and Hunnymonster might advise better.

Racing Flat

Sosa wrote: »

Im around 5ft 9"...no idea about body fat

Then if you were my athlete, I'd be advising you that around 10'10" would be a good race weight, give or take a few pounds either way depending on yourself. So plenty more weight to come off and with that the times will come down.

Sosa wrote: »

What would you recommend eating,Racing Flat ?

You'll get better advice from others, but here is what I would eat in a typical week.

Mon & Wed
Breakfast
large porridge and orange juice

Mid-morning
Banana & apple

Lunch
soup and sandwich, fruit

Dinner
spaghetti bolognese/chilli con carne/chicken curry/vegetable chilli with fish/pasta with fish/steak veg and potatoes

Big portions - 2 plate fulls, spaghetti, rice, pasta will be wholewheat

Late night snack
fruit or chocolate or both

Tues & Thurs (do hard running training sessions those nights so fill up at lunchtime)
as above except
Lunch
fish/meat potatoes and veg or curry and rice, ie canteen dinner, with emphasis on lots of carbs and protein

Fri
as Mon/Wed, but Chinese takeaway for dinner

Sat/Sun
small porridge
training
big breakfast e.g. 2 eggs, 4 toast
light lunch
big dinner, homemade as above, eat out or takeaway

NB this is the minimum, you could add in the odd scone, fry up, crisps here and there. I'll also go to the cinema once a week or so and have large popcorn, coke and bag of chocolates.

I'm not saying this is healthy or should be copied but eating like this I maintain a BF% of 10%. I should probably not eat portions as big, and also cutting out the unhealthy snacks might lead to a more optimal weight, but as I love my food, I am happy with it as it is. Coming up to a big race I might cut out all bad food for a few weeks or maybe longer, but I couldn't do this for more than 2 or 3 months and definitely not more than once or twice a year. Basically I would say complex carbs with protein and lots of fruit and veg are the most important things. I have fresh food and would only rarely use jars etc.

Doodee

Sosa wrote: »

Any suggestions on high carb tasty food would be appreciated

Creamed Rice?

MCOS

Racing Flat wrote: »

T
big breakfast e.g. 2 eggs, 4 toast

Is that what you call a big breakfast at the weekend

+1 on a big bowl of porridge for brekkie, can't beat it Throw in a chopped banana, sultanas, strawberries. whatever. I usually add honey too, delicious and a slow energy release.

++1 on the fresh food. Avoid tins, jars and packets as much as possible

My diet is actually quite similar to RF above. If you balance out the diet with enough fresh food, fruit and veg there is no need for supplements.

@Doodee Yep, creamed rice is a good option. Warm it up and throw a big spoon of jam into it yum!

Racing Flat

MCOS wrote: »

Is that what you call a big breakfast at the weekend

Yes when I've had porridge beforehand and lunch after!!!

MCOS

I'd have to go with a seasoned poached egg per slice of toast!

shels4ever

Well i dont think i should be talking about diet really untill about November i was eating anything i wanted...wrong foods at the wrong times of day etc ....But since December , and Jan i've really improved..

Losts more nice salad... Green mango makes a nice salad with fish, Mango actuall has a hig carb content so wouldnt be bad at all for training.

This week i've cut back a bit as i'm not training ..But first thing i'm the morning i've bene having a spicy noodle soup... with egg, fish balls or prawn..
Tuna wrap for lunch..
Then chicken and rice for dinner..
A couple of apples in there somewhere too...

Will see how this diet goes but would love to drop about 10% body fat before the marathon, which should be very possible.

cfitz

Sosa wrote: »

Im around 5ft 9"...no idea about body fat

I seem to be naturally very light and I have a very narrow frame... but at 5ft 7, I weigh under eight and a half stone.

Running Bing

Sosa wrote: »

Im around 5ft 9"...no idea about body fat

If your 5'9 and 12 stone and your eating right and training right it will be very very difficult to stay at 12 stone..........and unless your actively trying to carry a lot of muscle mass and have a BF% of less than 10 now (which I assume you dont going by the fact your not sure of bodyweight) that should be welcomed.

TheRoadRunner

cfitz wrote: »

I seem to be naturally very light and I have a very narrow frame... but at 5ft 7, I weigh under eight and a half stone.

In my opinion weight is my one big obstacle to running fast times.

I'm just about 6'1 and currently weigh around 12 stone 10. During the Summer I was around 12 stone 4 and looked like death warmed up. My BF was well below 10% also.

Still at 12 stone 4 I bet I was heavier than most guys I would be in direct competition with.

The flip side of this is that I was actually lighter during the Summer compared to my weight when I was 17 !!!! I wouldn't be very muscular either so I reckon I've got a set of massive lungs (or maybe another organ:D)

I went to a sports nutritionist a while back and didn't get a whole lot out of it. If anybody can recommend me a qualified sports nutritionist I'd love to hear it as I would like to look into this again. I don't think I could go on some of the specialised diet some other Boards members have written about in the past though

TheRoadRunner

Oh by the way I think stretching is important if you want to stay injury free. A little dynamic stretching (even running on the spot !) before training and long slow stretches after training even for a couple of minutes will only help you

Sosa

Racing Flat wrote: »

Then if you were my athlete, I'd be advising you that around 10'10" would be a good race weight, give or take a few pounds either way depending on yourself. So plenty more weight to come off and with that the times will come down.



You'll get better advice from others, but here is what I would eat in a typical week.

Mon & Wed
Breakfast
large porridge and orange juice

Mid-morning
Banana & apple

Lunch
soup and sandwich, fruit

Dinner
spaghetti bolognese/chilli con carne/chicken curry/vegetable chilli with fish/pasta with fish/steak veg and potatoes

Big portions - 2 plate fulls, spaghetti, rice, pasta will be wholewheat

Late night snack
fruit or chocolate or both

Tues & Thurs (do hard running training sessions those nights so fill up at lunchtime)
as above except
Lunch
fish/meat potatoes and veg or curry and rice, ie canteen dinner, with emphasis on lots of carbs and protein

Fri
as Mon/Wed, but Chinese takeaway for dinner

Sat/Sun
small porridge
training
big breakfast e.g. 2 eggs, 4 toast
light lunch
big dinner, homemade as above, eat out or takeaway

NB this is the minimum, you could add in the odd scone, fry up, crisps here and there. I'll also go to the cinema once a week or so and have large popcorn, coke and bag of chocolates.

My typical day would be :

Breakfast : 2 slices of mccambridge brown bread with blueberry jam or bowl of porridge/cereal / sometines both + tea
Lunch : Wholemeal bread/roll - meat,salad,salsa - few biscuits ( half a pack ) + tea
Dinner : Steak,Lamb chops,Pasta ( wholemeal ),Chicken
Mash,Chips,Roast or boiled potatoes ...veg - brocolli,peas,carrots
We do have alot of jarred / packet sauces though

I have a wicked sweet tooth and eat desserts most days,sometimes 2 in a day.

After 9pm - Tea and biscuits/bar of chocolate

So,all in all,my main meals are fine ( i think ) but its the desserts and biscuits/chocolate not so good

shels4ever

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

In my opinion weight is my one big obstacle to running fast times.

I'm just about 6'1 and currently weigh around 12 stone 10. During the Summer I was around 12 stone 4 and looked like death warmed up. My BF was well below 10% also.

Yep defo when i competed I think my weight would have been about 12'7 i'm about 6'2 and I looked sick at that weight but ran like the wind(or a medium breeze) never knew what my body fat was.. Well last April i had it checked and it was 33% . Will check that again before belfast and see how it compares.

Bambaata

how are ye going about checking your BF? I'm 6'2 and i was 12'9 the sunday before Xmas, ate all around me, drank plenty (didnt go out though) but also cycled loads and to my surprise i was 12'2 2 1/2 weeks later!! havent a notion on my BF% though and trying to gte under 12 stone.

Racing Flat

cfitz wrote: »

I seem to be naturally very light and I have a very narrow frame... but at 5ft 7, I weigh under eight and a half stone.

I was thinking about this after I posted 10'10" might be okay for 5'9" but then remembered that a fair few fellows I run with are taller than that, yet lighter. Damn my big legs!!!

Racing Flat

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

In my opinion weight is my one big obstacle to running fast times.

I'm just about 6'1 and currently weigh around 12 stone 10. During the Summer I was around 12 stone 4 and looked like death warmed up. My BF was well below 10% also.

Still at 12 stone 4 I bet I was heavier than most guys I would be in direct competition with.

If your BF is well below 10%, I don't think you'll be able to shift any more weight - or if you did it would be counter-productive. Considering the low BF%, your weight is just down to your frame, which you won't be able to change. So maybe you do not have as natural a body for running as others, but you seem to have made the most of it. A fellow I run with is 6foot and just about 10stone, good runner, whereas I'm 5'9/5'10 and closer to 11. We were in the back of a car on the way to a race one day and someone pointed out how my legs were twice as wide as his, (cue all the jokes that I should have been a sprinter if only I had any speed etc.). So even though we'd similar BF%, I must just have more leg muscle fibres, or perhaps more type 2B fibres compared to him or something - ie different body compositions that probably won't ever change.

What I'm saying is, if I was you, I wouldn't be bothered with trying to lose any weight with such a low BF%.

Seres

Racing Flat wrote: »

How important are stretching and nutrition?

IMHO:

Stretching - not at all

Nutrition - very

i have to say i am in shock , stretching not at all important , really ?, is this not crucial to prevent injury ?, if not , what are the things that prevent injury?
i actual would have thought stretching was nearly on a par with nutrition ?

racso1975

Went on a coching and fitness course last year, not claiming to be any kind of expert or authority before ya's attack me just telling what i was taught, and the normal run of the mill stretching where you just extend your leg in various positions and hold for 10-15 secs has been proven to reduce performance by up to 25% and should only be used as a warm/stretch down method

Warm up stretching should be of a dynamic nature that also causes the heart level to increase i.e. shuttle runs, 50m lunges etc etc. and imo stretching ahould always always be used.

MarieC

I love to eat healthy I must say but as I dont have a car, study long hours and have little money (Im doing PhD) my diet doesnt get to be what it should. For example I was v.stressed this week so had porridge for dinner 3 out of 4 evenings (couldnt stomach anything more). Otherwise, my dinner could be the same 5 out of 7 evenings of the week. Beans mixed with rice and tuna. Lunch then is usually the same evey day, soup and salad the weeks Iv ran out of fruit and the other week then is soya yogurt, fruit, soup and crackers.

My idea of a treat is cappacino during the day, and in the evenings - jaffa cakes or granola with natural yogurt

How does this rank?

TheRoadRunner

Racing Flat wrote: »

What I'm saying is, if I was you, I wouldn't be bothered with trying to lose any weight with such a low BF%.

I think you are right. To be honest I couldn't give two $hites what my weight or BF composition are as long as I'm running well.

Cerlan

Christ lads, reading this thread has made me feel like a right fat bastard! Only running about 6 months but I'm 12st 2 at just shy of 5'8". No more salad dodging for me I reckon...

hunnymonster

There is a nutrition and diet forum for people who want more information but some of the basics include

1. Energy needs
know how many calories you need by following the steps below (taken from the complete guide to sports nutrition and summarised by g'em)
step A
Figure out your resting metabolic rate (RMR) or the calories your body requires just to exist if you were lying down for 24 hours:
Age Men
10-18 (body weight (kg) * 17.5) + 651
19-30 (bw (kg) * 15.3) + 679
31-60 (bw (kg) * 11.6) + 879
Age Women
10-18 (bw (kg) * 12.2) + 746
19-30 (bw (kg) * 14.7) + 496
31-60 (bw (kg) * 8.7) + 829

Step B:
Then calculate your lifestyle daily energy needs (LDEN):
Activity level
mostly seated or standing RMR * 1.4
regular walking or equivalent RMR * 1.7
generally physically active RMR * 2.0

Step C:
Then estimate your daily exercise expenditure (DEE). I never quite trust the tables of calorie experditures but they get you in the right ball park. One example is
http://www.nutribase.com/exercala.htm
The common approach is to calculate a week's exercise and divide by 7 but personally, I prefer to have people eat the extra calories around about when they exercise not averaged out. This helps fuel the exersise better and aids recovery.

The calories you need to eat are
LDEN + DEE
For weight loss: reduce calories by about 15% a day:
For weight gain: Increase your calorie intake by 20%:


2. When to eat
divide your LDEN calories throughout the day (ideally 5-6 small meals). See point 4 for when you should eat your DEE calories


3. eat clean - The easiest way to explain this is that food should not need 20 processes to be eaten, yes some foods need to be cooked, yes some foods need processing (e.g. pasteurisation of milk) but you don't need 20 chemicals! The more food you can obtain in it's raw state and cook yourself the better (and cheaper) your diet will be. I don't ever accept the excuse that I don't have time or I don't have money. Fresh food is cheaper and faster to prepare but it does involve some thinking and forward planning.

4. composition of your food: runners tend to think they need endless carbohydrates. not true! Yes you will need more carbs than a sedentary person, running does not give you carte blanche to eat endless starch and sugar.
Your food is made up of macronutrients: carbohydrates, protein and fat.
Carbohydrates are classified acording to the the complexity of the sugar units and how rapidly they are digested. Carbs are useful for a range of functions (energy storage, structure, immunity, fertility etc) but most of us eat too much carbohydrate material. Protein is used for growth and repair. Fat can be used for energy and is important for fat soluble vitamins. Fats are divided into saturated and unsaturated. Most of us eat too much saturated fat. Roughly speaking you want your food to be 50% carb. 30 % fat and 20 % protein. These figures will vary a little depending on your exact goals.
Apart from these macronutrients food contains micronutrients such as vitamins and minerals (that's a whole other post on it's own). These play many vital roles in keeping us healthy.
Don'tforget water and fibre in your diet.

There are loads of food composition tables out there (e.g. http://www.brianmac.co.uk/food.htm)

Very important is that you need most of the carbohydrate just before, during and just after prolonged exercise. Little point having a hash brown roll at 9m when you ran at 7am.

5. Don't become a slave to your diet. eat according to the above rules 90 % of the time. Allow yourself a treat sometimes. Despite what Mr Wilde said, moderation is not fatal!

Peckham

racso1975 wrote: »

Went on a coching and fitness course last year, not claiming to be any kind of expert or authority before ya's attack me just telling what i was taught, and the normal run of the mill stretching where you just extend your leg in various positions and hold for 10-15 secs has been proven to reduce performance by up to 25% and should only be used as a warm/stretch down method

Warm up stretching should be of a dynamic nature that also causes the heart level to increase i.e. shuttle runs, 50m lunges etc etc. and imo stretching ahould always always be used.

+1 to this....and I have the same advice from a certain physio I know!

"Static" stretching (i.e. where you lean against a wall, stretch the calves etc.) before running is a waste of time and can be counter-productive as outlined above. The exception to this is when you're doing it as part of rehabilitation on any muscle injury.

On standard training runs there should be no need for stretching. You should be starting at a comfortable pace where there is no risk of straining a muscle. Before races, you're better off doing warm-up jogs and strides rather than any stretching.

Seres

thanks peckham rasco1975 ,will forget the stretching form now on , great , really hated them anyway

Racing Flat

Seres wrote: »

i have to say i am in shock , stretching not at all important , really ?

Yes

Seres wrote: »

is this not crucial to prevent injury ?

No.

Sorry, not time to elaborate, but will hopefully do later. Core stability not all it's cracked out to be either...

We stretch a bit like the way (many of us) used to go to mass for years, without questioning, but not really wanting to be there, but feeling peer pressure to do so and feeling guilty if we didn't. Not too many of us go to mass now, but we still stretch:eek:.

Cerlan wrote: »

Christ lads, reading this thread has made me feel like a right fat bastard! Only running about 6 months but I'm 12st 2 at just shy of 5'8". No more salad dodging for me I reckon...

14st when I started, you skinny thing.

Peckham

Racing Flat wrote: »

Core stability not all it's cracked out to be either...

Would be interested to hear you elaborate on that.....core strength training is the new big thing in my training!

louthandproud

Racing Flat wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seres View Post
i have to say i am in shock , stretching not at all important , really ?


Yes

This is somewhat subjective to say stretching is not at all important, might generally be the case but not true for everyone, me included on physio's instruction.

billyhead

OP,

If you are going to start running regularly you will lose wieght.Its hard to balance the calories in verses the calories you burned. I went through a phase of running training for a Marathon which I undertook a year ago and I was competing in many races representing my club in XC and road events. I was posting fairly fast times for a club runner to. I was about 11.8 stone and after a year of running was 10.5 stone at 6ft one inch and a bodyfat of about 6%. I looked like death but the thing was that the lighter I was the faster I got (natural I suppose). I was still eating like a horse. It was just that from a ll the cardio training I was burning it all off.

TheRoadRunner

louthandproud wrote: »

This is somewhat subjective to say stretching is not at all important, might generally be the case but not true for everyone, me included on physio's instruction.

This is going to be a hot topic of debate I reckon. Personally I'm not great with stretching. If I'm doing a race or something quite quick I always make sure I stretch. Pre-race I still do some of the "old" stretches but don't hold them as long as I use to. I pay more attention to dynamic stretching such as bounds strides etc now. For my slower runs I don't generally do much stretching a couple of minutes at most

For the last 6 months I do have to stretch certain muscle groups especially those in my arse to help keep a back injury at bay

Stupid_Private

Wahey.. another topic where everyone is different.

Stretching is a must for me. I'll feel it if I don't. Advice from my physio, who's very well respected in athletics circles, is to stretch before and after training. As RoadRunner said there, just not for as long as used to be considered the norm - max 10 seconds, or a fast count to 10.

The only time I'll go without stretching before a run is if I'm pushed for time and its an easy day. Stretching wouldn't really replace a warm up. If I'm doing a fast day or race it'll be stretch followed by warm up jog then strides/sprints at the end.

If you can get away without doing stretches fair play, I wouldn't be advising someone to do away with them just because you can though.

MCOS

I never stretch. Usually shoes on and out the door. I'll stretch sometimes after a run though. Always stretch after resistance training.

+1 for dynamic stretches over old style. Just dont see the point in trying to stretch cold muscles.. a way to injure yourself IMO

Stupid_Private

MCOS wrote: »

Just dont see the point in trying to stretch cold muscles.. a way to injure yourself IMO

That's something I was also told not to do. No stretches first thing after waking up. Any other time and the muscles shouldn't be cold.

Bally8

MCOS wrote: »

Just dont see the point in trying to stretch cold muscles.. a way to injure yourself IMO

My physio has advised me to do a few different types of stretches 3 times a day. I know its different as I cant even run due to my ITB at the moment but are you saying it will do more harm than good for me to stretch first thing in the morning?

Its amazing how hard it is to find the time to do a few stretchs 3 times a day and how easy it is to find time to go for a run:)

Abhainn

Whether its a 6 mile or 22 mile run I spend usually 1-2 min stretching before I start and after I finish. Definately no more. Touch wood no injuries because of not doing more.

Before a race yes I would do proper warm up and stretching as it pretty much hell for leather when the gun goes.

I started off 13st 4lb Jan 2007 now 12st 1 lb and at 5ft 9 still techically overweight! People say I'm getting rawny now though me reckons 11 st 7lb is ideal for racing for me anyway. There is still an inch around my waist I could get rid off.

A common food type by most in this thread is choclate and sweet stuff. It seems moost of us are guilty of that.
Do many people here sip many pints or wine?

MarieC

Im 5ft1.8inches and as of half an hour ago Im tipping the scales at 10st1lb!
I know I have a decent amount of muscle from kickboxing days but still would love to knock the bones of another stone off. Eat pretty healthy but I guess a certain amount is down to genes also?

Just back from 3m run and didnt stretch because of this thread! :rolleyes:

Clum

Abhainn wrote: »

A common food type by most in this thread is choclate and sweet stuff. It seems moost of us are guilty of that.
Do many people here sip many pints or wine?

Sometimes I think I run just to justify all the fatty foods I eat and the booze I drink.

I'll eat my Mother Nature's five-a-day and take on the required amount of carbs from pastas for the long runs but I balance it all out with an unhealthy amount of crisps, chocolate, pizza, burgers, chips, biscuits, chinkers and curries. Mmmm. Most weekends drink is had too, a few beers on Fridays and wine on a Sunday (cos it's totally justified for not drinking on the Saturday). Don't (or try not to) drink Saturdays cos I do my long runs on a Sunday.

Fairly sure if I could control my diet I'd have knocked those 2 minutes off the marathon last autumn and gone sub 3! I have the discipline to run 50 miles a week but not to control what I eat...

Racing Flat

Clum wrote: »

Sometimes I think I run just to justify all the fatty foods I eat and the booze I drink.

Bill Rodgers (Boston marathon winner a few times I think) used to say that. But then he was fairly extreme - he'd get up in the middle of the night and eat a jar of mayonaise...

MarieC wrote: »

Just back from 3m run and didnt stretch because of this thread! :rolleyes:

Don't believe anything you read on the internet :P - check the research, do a PubMed search or something.

Stupid_Private wrote: »

That's something I was also told not to do. No stretches first thing after waking up. Any other time and the muscles shouldn't be cold.

MCOS wrote: »

Just dont see the point in trying to stretch cold muscles.. a way to injure yourself IMO

old wives tale anyone? I think doing your typical hamstring stretching is unlikely to lead to injury first thing in the morning or any other time tbh. All you're doing is leaning over at the end of the day...fair enough you might want to be warmed up for vigorous ballistic stretching, but people don't really seem to do that anymore.

More important, and not an old wives tale, is that if your muscles are warm, you will get further into the stretch, so you'll get more out of it if warm.

Stupid_Private wrote: »

Stretching is a must for me. I'll feel it if I don't.

If you can get away without doing stretches fair play, I wouldn't be advising someone to do away with them just because you can though.

That's sound advice - if something works for you stick with it. For me, I can't recall missing training due to an injury and I never stretch - other than at the start line of races, that's maybe more of a nervous thing. I bet if I hurt my knee in a football tackle and I went to see someone they would probably say, you have tight hamstrings, so you should stretch them. That doesn't make sense to me. If they've always been tight what's the problem? (from an injury prevention point of view, not talking about performance in that context).

Stupid_Private wrote: »

not for as long as used to be considered the norm - max 10 seconds, or a fast count to 10.

Wonder what has brought this change about. The stretching research would point to 30 sec hold, 4 reps to be the optimal way to stretch. Fair enough, that research is generally not of great quality. I'd say it might be the rise in poularity of dynamic stretching getting mingled with people moving away from static stretching and it's meeting somewhere in the middle.

louthandproud wrote: »

This is somewhat subjective to say stretching is not at all important, might generally be the case but not true for everyone, me included on physio's instruction.

Do you mean general as opposed to subjective? Because it might be just as subjective to say stretching is important:).

The problem is that stretching is a bit too simplistic - it infers that a muscle is tight and so it needs to be stretched, or that by stretching you will prevent it from getting tight. But the body isn't as simple as that - muscles don't work in isolation. Muscles may well get tight, but more importantly they can get overactive - so they work too much, e.g. gluts and one of the calf muscles should work predominantly when standing, but when doing power movements, like fast running maybe, hamstrings and the other calf muscle would be more active. But people often due to familial or habitual postures might tend to stand in such a way that their hamstrings are doing a lot of the work - so they are working more than they should be, they are overactive. This often goes hand in hand with gluts being less active than they should be - 'muscle imbalance' is a somewhat abused term that gets bandied about to describe this. So a lot of people focus on stretching what they assume to be tight hamstrings, but dilligent as they may be, they never get anywhere. Because the problem isn't a simple localised tightness, rather an overactivity with underactivity elsewhere. In this, extremely common, case, I would much prefer to see the person working to improve the recruitment of their gluts (kind of like strengthening, but more to do with timing and activation levels). Once the gluts are working as they should be once the person is standing, the hams won't have to work and so they will relax and will probably not be/appear as tight. Not sure if that makes sense? Yoga stretches typically incorporate such strengthening - anytime you are doing a hamstring type stretch, you will be working your gluts at the same time - don't tend to get this with static stretching, you might do with certain types of dynamic stretching.

Peckham wrote: »

Would be interested to hear you elaborate on that.....core strength training is the new big thing in my training!

The problem with core strengthening is it has become a fad and as such has been overused and abused. The plank is seen as a miracle ecercise. But is the plank not just doing press-ups without the hard bit (ie using your arms to push up and down)?! All you are doiong is holding your back in a good position - but if you did that while doing your other exercises anyway, you'd be doing the same thing.

A problem is that everyone and his dog knows a little bit about core stability. It's resurgence (after all Joseph Pilates started it first in the 30s although yoga people could probably claim it long before then) is due to research in the 80s showing that the trunk muscles play a role in supporting the spine, particularly the ones closest to the spine, the core muscles. Then a link was established between activation of these muscles and low back pain. It was found that in normal people when asked to lift their arm in the air, some of these core muscles activated prior to the shoulder muscles. But in people with back pain, these muscles were delayed in their activation - is the persons shoulder muscles worked first then the core muscles.

This lead people to believe that these weak core muscles led to a lack of support around the back with subsequent excess movement of the bones, leading to cumulative microtrauma and ultimately pain. (However, it's a bit of a chicken and egg - maybe the pain lead to the muscle inhibition, rather than the other way round?). The next logical conclusion appeared to be that exercising these muscles would lead to improved support around the spine and therefore less pain. Hence people started prescribing core muscle exercises.

Unfortunately, most of the world has stopped following the researach at this point, so everyone with pain, looking for better performance etc. is advised to do core exercises. What was later discovered were 2 very important things, which lead me to say core stability (as it is almost always prescribede and practised) is not all it's cracked out to be.

1 Different people have different 'core muscle' problems. Some could have a problem involving weak or underactive transversus abdominus muscle, some could have a weak lumbar multifidus muscle (simplistic I know, but trying to illustrate a point). So different exercises may need to be prescribed for these 2 people, but as far as I'm aware people generally get given the same set of exercises, so they may be pointless for some people and good for others.

2 More importantly, it's increasingly being found that doing core exercises on the floor, or a gym ball, or Pilates machine or whatever, does not transfer to functional, weight bearing activities. So you might become the world champion at doing a 'navel to spine' type core exercise, or brdge on a gymball, but that does not mean your core muscles will work any differently than before when running.

This has led to the people responsible for the resurgence running a mile from such exercises. They advocate incorportaing good posture into functional activities (bit like Chi running!!!) rather than isolated/ isometric (static)/floor/non weight-bearing type exercises.

But as I said before, don't believe anything you read on the internet:P.

Woddle

I think I'll choose to believe this post though as I hate doing core exercises
Probably why I still have a bit of a gut

louthandproud

Racing Flat wrote: »

Do you mean general as opposed to subjective? Because it might be just as subjective to say stretching is important:).

No I meant subjective, and you are right it would also be subjective probably to say the opposite, if you were basing it on your own experience particularly.

In general it depends on the individual.

Zuppy

If it is ok not to stretch? Why is light dynamic stretching nearly a universal distance running warm up? Since range of motion is very important for sport, would the logic not lead to stretching being important? As stretching increases flexibility and ROM by default?

cfitz

Racing Flat wrote: »

How important are stretching and nutrition?

IMHO:

Stretching - not at all

I think of stretching as being very important. So since you've said this, I've been trying to come up with personal experiences that back up my belief that stretching is important. I've got one in particular that I'm going to ask you about:

From the ages of 18 - 25 (probably even longer), I could not stand with my legs straight and touch my toes with my hands. My osteopath got me to try it a few months ago and when he saw that my fingers were about 8cm from my toes he was disgusted. So he gave me 3 stretches to do, one after the other. The first was like a back extension, the second I was in a foetal position, and the third one I was up on my feet. With each of these stretches I would take 5 deep breaths and with the first and third ones I would try push a bit further on each breath. I started doing these stretches every day and after about a month I could touch my toes.

So my question is, do you believe that my increased range there will not help improve my performance and/or prevent injury?

Racing Flat

ZuppyLurk wrote: »

If it is ok not to stretch? Why is light dynamic stretching nearly a universal distance running warm up? Since range of motion is very important for sport, would the logic not lead to stretching being important? As stretching increases flexibility and ROM by default?

You don't need a great deal of ROM for running though - not compared to gymnastics, for example. I think stretching alone will only increase flexibility on a (very) short term basis, and unless if you keep stretching regularly, the ROM will be lost again as soon as you stop, if you don't address the underlying reason for the lack of flexibility (e.g. posture, reduced activity, weakness elsewhere...).

The one thing we know from experience is that stretching helps for cramp/muscle spasm. If you play a match and you get cramp, stretching is probably the only way to relieve it. So if I was doing a speed session and my calf felt a bit tight after one of the reps, I'd stretch my calf (statically) while recovering before the next rep and that usually makes the calf feel better. So stretching is good from that point of view (cramp/spasm/exercise induced tightness), but I think that's a different scenario than stretching to increase flexibility (long term/postural/disuse tightness).

Racing Flat

cfitz wrote: »

From the ages of 18 - 25 (probably even longer), I could not stand with my legs straight and touch my toes with my hands. My osteopath got me to try it a few months ago and when he saw that my fingers were about 8cm from my toes he was disgusted. So he gave me 3 stretches to do, one after the other. The first was like a back extension, the second I was in a foetal position, and the third one I was up on my feet. With each of these stretches I would take 5 deep breaths and with the first and third ones I would try push a bit further on each breath. I started doing these stretches every day and after about a month I could touch my toes.

So my question is, do you believe that my increased range there will not help improve my performance and/or prevent injury?

I think probably not, but it probably depends on what has happened. To increase the ability to touch your toes, one (or a combination of) 3 things are likely to have happened - you have increased the flexibility of your back, hips, or hamstrings. If the tightness in your back, hip or hamstrings was a factor in you getting injuries, or impeding your running style in anyway, then the increase in flexibility may be beneficial. But I don't really see it. I think you will have reduced your chances of injury and improved your performance at bending over to lift boxes from the floor or something like that, but probably not running. Perhaps if your hips or hamstrings had prevented you from making a full stride, then if they are now more flexible you will run better, but considering your hips and hamstrings don't really have to go through a massive ROM for long distance running, I'd doubt if this is the case.

Another thing I'd bet on, is if you stop doing the exercises, I imagine after a few weeks you would be back to 8cm from your toes (that's quite impressive actually from a male in 20's, don't know why he was disgusted!).

As an example of how posture and how we move is so important, look at the pictures attached (sorry, don't know how to put them straight in). In the first 2, 2 people bending forward, but look at how differently they do it, even though they have similar range. The man has a very flexible spine (but very tight hamstrings), while the girl has a very stiff spine. So if you were to get both of them to do this as an exercise, as the body tends to follow the path of least resistance, he'd end up flexing his back more (which he doesn't need), while she'd end up not moving her back (and moving from elsewhere, probably hips or hamstrings). So generic stretching or core stability exercises are not always ideal. The persons individual posture type and movement pattern should be identified, and faults could then be worked on, individually. Then if you look at the third one (picture 1) an apparently extremely flexible person, but although her hips and hamstrings are incredilbly flexible, her back doen't really flex at all - so she has a stiff back which most people would probably find hard to believe.

Stupid_Private

Was at my physio last night so asked him about the stretching I do before and after training. This stretching is known as Active Isolated Stretching and not static stretching. He says he doesn't see any benefit in Static stretching but says Active Isolated should be done. From what I can gather static stretching is holding groups of muscles in one position for long periods (ie 30 seconds plus). I'm no authority on this by any means - I just go with what I'm told and when it comes to my legs he knows them better than me.