Need a good dress shirt

DadaKopf

I'm on the lookout for a nice shirt to go with my suit. Interviews and all.

It has to be light blue (most aren't light blue, only the high-end shirts are the right shade). Thing is, I'm very particular. I like the more continental style of shirt with a spread collar, but not a British-style Windsor collar. I also like good quality fabric which lasts, but not patterns. What I do like are interesting, but subtle weaves in the fabric. I want the shirt to be slim fitting and the cuffs must be button cuffs and must rest no more than half an inch below the cuff of my jacket.

I've read good things about www.tailorstore.com, and the online services on the M&S website, though the fabrics available in the latter are dismal.

And here's another annoying thing: I'm a 15" neck and 35.5" arm, but e.g. M&S off the peg shirts are 15" and 34.5" arms.

I don't have a huge amount of experience with all this, so any help about where to go is more than welcome.

harveydent

You sound like Patrick Bateman!!!! You sound like you've plenty of experience tho.... go to Louis Copeland, he'll cut you a fine shirt!!

DadaKopf

Whoever that is. I also am poor, so I don't want it too pricey! Suggestions?

chillywilly

www.burton.co.uk

nice clothes and good prices. Check out there sale section some nice stuff!

fonpokno

Just regarding M&S shirts, there are some shirts available in a longer length with a longer arm. Came across them about two months ago.

Edit: here. the sleeve and body are both 2in longer. Just in case that's of any use to you at all!

OldGoat

T.M. Lewins in Sth. Anne Street (Dublin) have a good range on sale at the moment. Plenty of 15" collars and their shirts are cut very generously. €30-60.

A little OT but has anyone bought a shirt from the M&S tailoring service? What price and how did it turn out?

eviltimeban

Lewin / Henry Jermyn / Pink all are generally the same, good quality, high(er) end prices, lots of styles and colours to choose from. Guys in the place generally very helpful, especially Pink, and they often have good deals in the sale. Be warned though, you will end up paying up to 90 euro for your shirt. They do have some disadvantages though, see below.

I would recommend a plain light blue double cuff shirt, with semi cutaway collar. It'll work with any colour suit, whether plain or pinstripe, and will also allow you to match it with any kind of tie. For interview purposes etc you want to be subtle but important looking; therefore a dark navy tie with perhaps a very slight design running through (stripes, dots, flowers, doesn't matter). Tie in a half windsor knot will do the business. DON'T tie your tie too big and too short. The knot should be framed nicely by the collar but not overpower it. Get some nice cufflinks (Paul Smith perhaps) and you're away.

If you are on a budget, I would like to suggest Zara for men's shirts. Surprised? I started buying them a few years ago, cos i used to go through shirts so quickly, and the Pink ones were getting worn out too easily. The thing I like most about the Zara shirt is that it is slightly fitted; good on the arms and doesn't have that "bagging" effect around the waist. That can be the problem with the Pink shirts (unless its a slim fit - the most expensive in the shop), they ride up and overflow over your belt and just end up looking sloppy. Because there is less material in the Zara shirts, it doesn't happen. Plus the collars are good, nicely cut.

Zara often has ridiculous colours and style; avoid the very bold stripes and checks, you'll only have trouble with them in the matching department. Stick to a plain light blue like I said, and you can't go wrong. The Zara ones are generally about €40. Don't get your tie there though, splash out on the tie as it'll make a difference. Brown Thomas have designer ones in the sale now; I would suggest Canali as they are great, long lasting, stylish, and hold their shape very well. Roll up your ties when you are not wearing them..

Patrick Bateman is the fashion and image obessesed, and serial killing, character from American Psycho (book and movie).

jdivision

TM Lewin's shirts are either E30 or E38 at the moment (some are at one price, some at the other). They also do different length arms which should suit you OP. If you don't like the shirt, you can return it at any time, even if you've worn it a few times. They also do a variety of collars

noby

Some good advice there.

eviltimeban wrote: »

Roll up your ties when you are not wearing them..

You can also hang your ties. Hang them in the bathroom while showering to sort out any creases.

partyguinness

I have been buying all my shirts from TM Lewin for the past 2 years via the internet. £20 each for good shirts..single or double cuff. I have no complaints. I often get ties etc as well from them. In fact I just spent £200 on new work shirts last Monday.

Another factor is I feel like I am getting real value for money. I always feels like I am being ripped off in Ireland.

I know its unpatriotic but its costing me £20 per shirt online (roughly €25) and very quick delivery.

partyguinness

OP- why must your shirt be single cuff (buttons)?

Surely for interviews you want to look as smart as possible? with buttons you look like a student or a farmer..then again it depends on what line of work you are going for...

DadaKopf

partyguinness wrote:

OP- why must your shirt be single cuff (buttons)?

I just find double-cuffs/French cuffs over the top and pretentious. Mutton dressed as lamb, etc. I've also read that they're not appropriate for job interviews. Since I'm working in the political side of the not-for-profit sector, I'm also not going for a 'businessy' look, which these cuffs give off. For the NFP sector, I feel classic, plain and understated but refined is the way to go.

eviltimeban, I agree with a lot of your advice. Since the sale is on, I'll probably go to Lewin in any case, I may also order from the M&S online service and/or www.tailorstore.com. I know what you mean about tie knots; the amount of people I see with knots too big, too small, length too long, too short. I suppose I wear suits irregularly enough to still care, and getting the knot size and length just right (just touching the buckle of the belt) is crucial. Also, I prefer more slender ties.

Out of interest, would you think that, e.g. a blue shirt with a very slight woven pattern with a blue tie with micro-dots would be overpowering? I wanted a plain dark-navy in Lewin but it was sold out.

Oh, my suit is an Italian cut, hand-stitched, super-110s, dark grey. Just for context!

Those Zara shirts, though... there was one I did like (a blue one with a patterned weave [possibly two-ply thread]) and while the style was right, and fabric quite nice, the stitching looked very bad. And for that, it cost €55.00. Right now, anyway, all other shirts just are not appropriate.

There should be more sartorial discussion on this forum!

partyguinness

Well thats fair enough...as I said it depended on what your area of work is. As its a "not for profit" sector the you dont want to be flashy in an area that isnt flashy/pretentious if you like.

The 2 best suits I bought were from Louis Copeland. They were hand made but the person they were made for didnt buy them...so I got 2 for €800.00 and tailored.

Its only when I wore another 'off the peg' suit I really appreciated the difference. I would only buy tailored from now on but cant afford it...:(

Have owned suits from Hugo Boss, Strelson, Gieves & Hawkes etc and they came nowhere near the tailored suit...in fact I am crying inside when I have to wear 'off the peg'..:(

You are best sticking to plain ties and plain shirt for interviews...

DadaKopf

Oh, if only we could all afford bespoke suits! I wish I could. A friend bought a Boss suit in the Dundrum Shopping centre. Nice fabric, but they looked boxy and not sure if it was completely hand-stitched. Probably not. I looked at Strelson suits in Arnotts - awful. Bad fabric, bad cut, bad stitching and finishing, and lapels etc. were fused, not stitched. G&H I don't know about but they strike me as a conservative English tailors now trading on a brand and not good tailoring. Not worth the money. I got mine in Maurice Abraham off Grafton St. Great service, and when I tried the thing on, I knew it was right. It comes across as being a little more fitted than most rubbish-y off-the-pegs, but sure, I'd love one that was absolutely tailormade for me. Abrahams do suits from scratch, but I've known people to be unhappy with the overall cut.

OldGoat

French cuffs - Pretentious! Pftt! French cuffs are the epitime of elegance. AND you get to wear cufflinks too.
You mentioned in the first post that you want your sleeve to be at a specific length beneath your jacket sleeve. The best way to get this is to use sleeve garters/suspenders...you know the things, the metal & elastic bands that you wear on your arms (you'll find them in Lewins for €12.00).

I'm not sure if I like the colour combination you are using for the interview. True that blue is the power and confidence colour but to have a blue shirt & a blue tie? Is that not overkill and it would have to be a very good colour/hue match. I think that a grey tie to match the suit and a blue shirt...or...a grey shirt to match the suit and a blue tie. But thats just me and obviously you know what will suit you better.

partyguinness

Strellson and Hugo Boss are literally made in the same place..same company.

I was very disappointed with Hugo Boss..lost shape after a few wears, bad fit, cheap feeling material.

The Gieves & Hawkes (actually wearing it today)...again not a great fit, material is good though but a bit baggy...personally I am into conservative business suits..I work in law so that look suits me..boom boom

To be honest they are all crap compared to the tailored one but just have to get over it..not sure what I'll try next..

There is a suit shop on Duke Street..off Graton Street..bought there a few years back and they were very helpful upstairs..michael barrie I think

White shirt...plain navy tie..plain conservative suit..all the way mate.

eviltimeban

The simplest (and cheapest) thing to do is buy an off the peg suit, doesn't have to be expensive, and bring it to a tailors to get it altered. I wouldn't even think of wearing a jacket before altering it. You can get them to take it right in to your spec, take up or down the cuffs, adjust the trousers, etc. I have long legs but I still dislike having a gathering effect on the trousers, so I always need them taken up! A friend of mine also gets his shirts tailored the same way, I don't bother but its an option.

The point about the cufflinks doesn't really stand up for me; nowadays you can buy shirts for like 15 quid that have double cuffs, and cheapo cufflinks. So it doesn't exactly scream "money!". To me a double cuff is just a business shirt; the only time you shouldn't wear one is in the summer when its warmer, and a single cuff may be cooler on your wrist (half the material going around). Its the cufflinks that make it flashy, and if you go for something plain (not gold or silver or sparkly) like maybe mother of pearl then you're away. Cufflinks can also add a splash of personality to your ensemble.

As for the tie / shirt question; I think if the shirt is plain (i.e. it has a weave but no stripes of checks) then of course you can wear a LIGHT BLUE shirt with a NAVY tie with a design or pattern. Good if there's red or pink in the tie to make it stand out. Its when you start clashing patterns that you get a problem.

By the way, responding to Old Goat, a grey shirt??? Get out of here right now! :-) Never ever should a work shirt be anything other than the basic colours (white based, blue based, or pink, or with red as in checks etc). If you wear a grey shirt, or a black shirt, or a shirt that is the same colour as the tie, you end up liking like a) the IT guy downstairs or b) some kid just working for the summer. Might as well untuck your shirt and wear shoes with big buckles while you're at it!

Finally, the amount of shirt cuff showing is really more to do with the length of the suit jacket sleeve; if you find a shirt brand you can trust and get your jackets tailored you'll never have to worry about it.

OldGoat

eviltimeban wrote: »

By the way, responding to Old Goat, a grey shirt??? Get out of here right now! :-) Never ever should a work shirt be anything other than the basic colours (white based, blue based, or pink, or with red as in checks etc). If you wear a grey shirt, or a black shirt, or a shirt that is the same colour as the tie, you end up liking like a) the IT guy downstairs or b) some kid just working for the summer. Might as well untuck your shirt and wear shoes with big buckles while you're at it!

Damn it how did you see the buckles on my shoes from way over there?
OK, point taken on the grey shirt but it's still preferable to the blue on blue combination.

eviltimeban

But I'm saying navy on blue... as in navy on a light blue. Like the image on the bottom right of this picture:

partyguinness

Personally I would stay away from checked or patterned shirts for an interview at any rate...remember the interview is about you and not your suit..keep it plain and simple..

Grey or black shirt...big NO NO...you look like an Eastenders gangster or a scumbag in Court on a Monday morning.

DadaKopf

Yeah, see, I really dig those continentals. Their use of blue shirts with blue ties (in the summer months, even the same colour as the shirts!), or even blue shirts with orange ties! This latter combination can seem to work better with blue suits.

Anyway, I have to laugh at myself here. Basically, I'm an eternal student type who works in the charity sector, which is very informal. Ideologically informal, really. At the same time, when the time came for me to buy a suit (and right now I do some work in the Oireachtas, too), I said to myself, "No point buying crap to look crap". I sort of take all this seriously, so much to learn, and it makes a difference to your confidence in work/interview environments.

The other thing I've realised is that, while, sure, the whole world of suits/shirts/ties/shoes/belts are essentially a uniform, they're also differentiators that really do symbolise different professions. In other words, there are so many styles, and those styles have content.

I'm not sure I'd share my taste with eviltimeban. Why? Maybe double-cuffs and a bit of bling (even the odd waistcoat) is part of the legal profession's uniform - it makes legal eagles come across to clients as authoritative and successful, and presumably clients are reassured by that. Civil servants (from what I've seen in the Oireachtas) usually wear slightly ill-fitting grey suits with M&S shirts and gaudy ties. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael TDs are mad for the double-cuffs, maybe reflecting their professions and desire to impress voters. Depending on their mood, they'll wear suits with stripes. Like businessmen, management and stock-broking types, these highly patterned options (including the shirts and ties) look designed to intimidate and blind people.

Personally, I'm not into that. Maybe it reflects my other profession as a graphic designer, but I feel that more attention to fabric, colour and texture are more important than pattern. It's more, uh, sensual. Something the southern Europeans do very well, perhaps reflecting their way of being in a world that is sun-basked, vibrant, relaxed. They have different design cultures, they seem to appreciate simplicity and innovations in detailing rather than smash-you-in-the-face bling. For some reason, though I detest the guy, Nicolas Sarkozy seems fairly archetypical of your average continental workstyle.

Anyway, thing about suits etc. is: you really have a lot of choice about what messages you give out, genuine or not. And while there is this variety, there are rules. But naturally, rules can be broken, if they work!

partyguinness

I personally think that so many 'off the peg suits' are ****e that there is really little point getting too bogged down.

Its like having an argument over which is better Skoda v. Lada v. Fiesta v Micra.

It doesnt matter whether you buy in M&S or Zara or Next or Hugo Boss store. You can tell (well I can anyway) an 'off the peg' suit a mile off so if you are going to get into some much detail researching it..you will never be happy.

Of course there is no point spending €1000 on a suit in Louis Copeland if you then walk into Clarkes for a pair of shoes.

You must also factor in:-

Shoes- a cheap pair will kill you and the suit.
Socks
Cufflinks
Belt
Tie
Collar Stiffers

DadaKopf

I think there's still a difference between a badly-made and a well-made off-the-peg. Those cheaper makes use poorer fabrics, unflattering cuts, and often fuse seams instead of sew them. In general, bad OTP's are not worth the money in relation to better OTPs. Those fused seams are the worst - case in point, if you dry clean your suit, they'll rumple because the glue shrinks.

The suit I got cost €460. I'd consider it a good OTP, and I can have it tailored if I wish. It's good fabric, is wearing well and is hand-sewn. It most of the trimmings, but is missing out on the gaudier stuff like brightly-coloured jacket lining (totally wrong).

So maybe it's more: Lada vs. Skoda vs. Micra at one level, and Passat vs. Mondeo vs. Alfa Romeo 159 at the next level.

eviltimeban

DadaKopf wrote: »

I'm not sure I'd share my taste with eviltimeban. Why? Maybe double-cuffs and a bit of bling (even the odd waistcoat) is part of the legal profession's uniform

I think you've got me mixed up with another poster - I ain't no lawyer. I totally agree with you on the continental European thing though - I would love our weather to be better so I could wear really light coloured suits with brown shoes and blue shirts and orange ties (GOOD call).

As for the cufflinks debate, I would just assume that all business shirts should be double cuff (although ironically right now I'm wearing a single cuff as I'm in the office all day and cufflinks sometimes get in the way of typing when you rest your wrists on the desk...). But my point was you can avoid blinging cufflinks - keep them very plain and simple. Functional but not flashy. I wouldn't wear a waistcoat, although they do look good on the likes of David Beckham. If you wore a waistcoat or braces in the average Irish office they'd laugh you out of the place.

You make it sound like I'm promoting loud patterns etc - the very point I was making was to avoid all that with simple yet effective patterns and prints (if any). Think traditional. Could you have worn it 40 years ago? Could it still be worn in 40 years time? That's the way to think. The established men's classics - well fitted suit, crisp shirt, silk tie, polished English brogues or Italian loafers - the rest is just detail; variations on a theme.

partyguinness

DadaKopf wrote: »

I think there's still a difference between a badly-made and a well-made off-the-peg. Those cheaper makes use poorer fabrics, unflattering cuts, and often fuse seams instead of sew them. In general, bad OTP's are not worth the money in relation to better OTPs. Those fused seams are the worst - case in point, if you dry clean your suit, they'll rumple because the glue shrinks.

The suit I got cost €460. I'd consider it a good OTP, and I can have it tailored if I wish. It's good fabric, is wearing well and is hand-sewn. It most of the trimmings, but is missing out on the gaudier stuff like brightly-coloured jacket lining (totally wrong).

So maybe it's more: Lada vs. Skoda vs. Micra at one level, and Passat vs. Mondeo vs. Alfa Romeo 159 at the next level.

Well thats true and if you want absolute perfection then buy a S class Merc. To be honest I have never bought such a cheap suit that the glue shrinks....:eek: I am a 'legal eagle' so the standard in suits/attire when I am around other 'legal eagles' is very very high and..well I dont want to let the side down..or God forbide the client says.."Yeah thats my solicitor..the one in the cheap ass suit from Next with the shiny pants..."

Am afraid €460 is well below the quality I now look for..

DadaKopf

Am afraid €460 is well below the quality I now look for.

Lucky you, if you can afford more. What & where do you buy?