400m training

GoneRunning

I am currently helping to coach a young 400m runner but am looking for some reference websites or books for expertise on designing a training program. I have some experience of 400m running, many years ago but I'm sure training methods have improved since then.

The guy is 16-17, currently just under 50 sec for 400m and about 22.5 for 200m. Prossibly he will move up to 800m in few years but not yet. He currently trains with a similar age group who are all middle distance so there is very little focus on sprint training. Most training is on grass but there is limited access to tartan track.

Any general inputs or directions appreciated.

Running Bing

GoneRunning wrote: »

I am currently helping to coach a young 400m runner but am looking for some reference websites or books for expertise on designing a training program. I have some experience of 400m running, many years ago but I'm sure training methods have improved since then.

The guy is 16-17, currently just under 50 sec for 400m and about 22.5 for 200m. Prossibly he will move up to 800m in few years but not yet. He currently trains with a similar age group who are all middle distance so there is very little focus on sprint training. Most training is on grass but there is limited access to tartan track.

Any general inputs or directions appreciated.

Jack Daniels book "Daniels Running Formula" has an excellent chapter on how to design a training plan and plan a season. He gives sample training plans too but only for distances of 800m and up so not sure how useful that would be.

He goes into depth into all the different types of training too like interval training, threshold training and repetition training which I imagine would be very useful to you. Again it is more geared towards middle/long distance but Im sure there would be some useful stuff in there for you.

ps Noakes Lore of Running has a section as well on designing a training programme but again nothing specific on short distance stuff.

GoneRunning

Babybing wrote: »

Jack Daniels book "Daniels Running Formula" has an excellent chapter on how to design a training plan and plan a season. He gives sample training plans too but only for distances of 800m and up so not sure how useful that would be.

He goes into depth into all the different types of training too like interval training, threshold training and repetition training which I imagine would be very useful to you. Again it is more geared towards middle/long distance but Im sure there would be some useful stuff in there for you.

ps Noakes Lore of Running has a section as well on designing a training programme but again nothing specific on short distance stuff.

I know generally how to design a training plan for middle distance, the problem is getting it right for a young sprinter. What's the right balance between speed and speed endurance training during the off/early season, what pace to train at, what recovery between sets, etc.

A google search throws up some good stuff including an article by Clyde Hart and I've used brianmac.co.uk - any other's to recommend?

thirtyfoot

First off at 16/17 and running 22.5 with I'm presuming a middle distance based training setup then he will be closer to 49.0 than 50.0 using the 200m time plus 2 by 2 formula (22.5+2=24.5*2=49.0). Thats great running and he is a real talent at that age.

www.elitetrack.com is good. Lots of good articles and a good forum. Here is an article from Peter Warden on planning training - http://www.elitetrack.com/articles/read/2310/

As with everything you can't adopt literally but it may give an understanding.

As regards timing etc, our group of sub 50 400m runners do something like this at the moment:

1 session of pure speed/acceleration - 30-50-80m full recs
1 tempo endurance session - say 3k in total on track at 75-80% of race pace
, so for 50 sec guy thats 45-47 secs for 300m. Very short recs of 1-3mins.
1 special endurance session of sorts - say 2 sets of 250/200/150 at 26-28secs pace and 3-4 mins recovery
1 circuit runs - runs on grass of 60-90secs with plyos during recs
1 conditioning day of core/drills/walkovers etc.

All bar acceleration could be done on grass.

Weights x 3 times a week.

Is he doing weights? If not get him started on building up his overall strength through core and body weight exercises over the next 6 months so he can hammer into the weights next winter.

We use a fairly low intensity/high volume program with quality where needed (acceleration runs or speed endurance in spring time). Others will disagree with this.

Failing all this, if you are not confident to take the kid forward or are not sure, talk to somebody, he seems really talented with those times (guys just under 50 went to world juniors this year on the 4 x4!!).

GoneRunning

Tingle wrote: »

First off at 16/17 and running 22.5 with I'm presuming a middle distance based training setup then he will be closer to 49.0 than 50.0 using the 200m time plus 2 by 2 formula (22.5+2=24.5*2=49.0). Thats great running and he is a real talent at that age.

www.elitetrack.com is good. Lots of good articles and a good forum. Here is an article from Peter Warden on planning training - http://www.elitetrack.com/articles/read/2310/

As with everything you can't adopt literally but it may give an understanding.

As regards timing etc, our group of sub 50 400m runners do something like this at the moment:

1 session of pure speed/acceleration - 30-50-80m full recs
1 tempo endurance session - say 3k in total on track at 75-80% of race pace
, so for 50 sec guy thats 45-47 secs for 300m. Very short recs of 1-3mins.
1 special endurance session of sorts - say 2 sets of 250/200/150 at 26-28secs pace and 3-4 mins recovery
1 circuit runs - runs on grass of 60-90secs with plyos during recs
1 conditioning day of core/drills/walkovers etc.

All bar acceleration could be done on grass.

Weights x 3 times a week.

Is he doing weights? If not get him started on building up his overall strength through core and body weight exercises over the next 6 months so he can hammer into the weights next winter.

We use a fairly low intensity/high volume program with quality where needed (acceleration runs or speed endurance in spring time). Others will disagree with this.

Failing all this, if you are not confident to take the kid forward or are not sure, talk to somebody, he seems really talented with those times (guys just under 50 went to world juniors this year on the 4 x4!!).

Ok, good input. I'll spend a bit of time on elitetrack.

He is currently training 3-4 times a week and has recently started weights/circuits once a week.
The tempo endurance session above is similar to current, the quality of the speeed session could be improved.
The special endurance would be new and drills have been neglected. Is that pace (26-28 secs) a 200m pace?
Would you see that 22.5 for 200m indicates good base speed or does this need more work?

Thanks for the input, I'll come back with more questions when I get a chance to digest better.

thirtyfoot

GoneRunning wrote: »

. Is that pace (26-28 secs) a 200m pace?
Would you see that 22.5 for 200m indicates good base speed or does this need more work?

.

Yes that would be 200m pace.

22.5 for is very good base speed for a 50.0 400 runner and would lead you to believe he should be faster over 400.

If doing a speed or acceleration session try get to a track. The actual running session is quick so you could do much of the drills before the running session.

Squirrel

http://www.nacactfca.org/articles/Hart-eng.htm

This is a Clyde Hart program (I did a google search and this was the first hit so it might just have his name and not be his program, but have a look around for one in case this isn't). But if you want to model a training program might as well model it on the best.

Obviouslyfor someone 16/17 he wouldn't be doing as high intensity of training, but at least if you can take some of his basic ideas theycould be put tosome use. 50 seconds for that age is some running, I do that at 19 and am happy with it. Get him to try some 800s, even just to do a few before he competes at them properly if that's the route you go with him.

Kine

My advise is to try get him training with other people doing the same event. Training on your own i never fun no matter what the distance, so depending on where your based, try get him involved with others of similar age/speed.

thirtyfoot

Squirrel wrote: »

http://www.nacactfca.org/articles/Hart-eng.htm

This is a Clyde Hart program (I did a google search and this was the first hit so it might just have his name and not be his program, but have a look around for one in case this isn't). But if you want to model a training program might as well model it on the best.

Obviouslyfor someone 16/17 he wouldn't be doing as high intensity of training, but at least if you can take some of his basic ideas theycould be put tosome use. 50 seconds for that age is some running, I do that at 19 and am happy with it. Get him to try some 800s, even just to do a few before he competes at them properly if that's the route you go with him.

Thats a good link. I think using an elite womans programme could be usefull as they are in the 49-51 range and there is a difference in the energy systems of a 44 and 50 sec 400.

We did the Hart continous relay last night and do it maybe once a month. Great fun and good to break up training every so often. 5 of us and we had to do 8k between us (which is 8 x 200 for each person). 1 guy got sick after 6 reps so we were down to 4 for last 2 km meaning an extra rep for all (he wasn't popular for that last 2k!). It is hard, harder than it looks on paper but brings a team element even though you are running solo for your each of your reps.

thirtyfoot

Kine wrote: »

My advise is to try get him training with other people doing the same event. Training on your own i never fun no matter what the distance, so depending on where your based, try get him involved with others of similar age/speed.

Unfortunately and its something the city folk might forget is that some athletes train in the ar*e hole of nowhere and finding a partner of similar age and standard would probably require re-locating to Mary Peters in the North for this guy! I did it for years when younger, training on grass on my own for most sessions with the quality session on a track at the weekend. Depends on the kid but if the head is right (and others are around like the middle distance guys) you can do a lot of sessions on your own. The Olympic Champion LaShawn Merritt trains in some smalltown track practically on his own.