Pass Irish

ooPabsoo

I honestly have no motivation any more to actually study for this exam.....im not good at irish and actually just dont like learning a language which i will NEVER use again. Its only a matter of time before this language is totally dead with the methods of teaching in todays education system. Why have i got too study poems and storys when i actually cant write a decent half page essay.....im not bad at talking irish as im good at bull****ting through a question but this lack of motivation is worrying!! i do need to pass irish as im looking to do a degree in computer science in NUIM but im also putting DIT down in which i need to pass english OR irish. any1 else think irish shouldnt be a compulsary subject for the leaving cert? a mixed range of opinions would be good

dlofnep

Sorry the current method of teaching is getting you down. I was the same - The Irish educational system for Gaeilge is really off-putting. I started learning Gaeilge on my own accord last year, and I've been having a great craic learning the language (I'm 26 now).

We have a Gaeilge channel (chat-room) on IRC (quakenet, #gaeilge), so if you need any help with anything, we're always there to help. If you need any help using IRC, just drop me a line.

Try not get down about the language. It's fun and rewarding when the stress is gone. It's far from dead and making a very good comeback over the past few years.

Best of luck with your exams.

K4t

I've said (nearly word for word) what you have just typed on numerous occasions. I don't necessarily think the language is dead (just look at the amount of money the government spend on the bleedin' thing!) but I definitely am of the opinion that the Irish secondary school cirriculum is killing it.
It is indeed ridiculous that ordinary level students (who can hardly say their name in Irish) are learning off notes on Irish poems and stories! It's laughable when you think about it.
If the Irish government really wanted to revive Irish they would have introduced an oral exam years ago (for the inter cert, now are JC) and the oral would be worth at least 70% of the final grade.

I do ordinary Irish and I hate it with a passion but I do respect our cultural identity as a nation and that Irish men died for this language.
All I need is a pass and if I don't get that I don't deserve to go to college.

ironictoaster

I feel the same way. I know it won't count towards to my Leaving Cert points.

Show_me_Safety

i was the same as yourself and did pass level.
i didnt enjoy it at the time, but know i feel like i tried harder and i would love to be able to speak it now.
i understand the pressure of exams, and its easy to discuss one subject without putting it in the context that you have a further 6. don't let your other exams suffer, so if you feel that dropping will be a benefit to your LC and overall points then i would recommend it.

Fad

ooPabsoo wrote: »

any1 else think irish shouldnt be a compulsary subject for the leaving cert? a mixed range of opinions would be good

I quite like Irish, and as strange as it sounds I don't really mind the syllabus anymore, I mean (at HL especially) is quite long, but lately I'm kinda halfway enjoying the poetry course (more than I am in English by far) and we're reading the Toriacht (well notes on it) at the moment, and it is easily the most ridiculous story ever comitted to memory, which I really enjoy for whatever reason.

I think it should be kept compulsory, why? I'm not entirely sure.......something about it being our constitutional first language...........something about national identity.

The oral will be worth 40% in a few years (it has been confirmed, I just dont know what year) but if it goes any higher than that we'll have a situation where loads of people can speak it, but no one is in anyway decent with grammar and spelling (Much like English:pac:)

ooPabsoo

its not that i dont like irish....i can understand the concept of keeping the national language alive but im never going to use a word of it again in my life so i dont see the point in having it as an exam...the teacher is trying her best to get most of the class to pass the exam.some of the class have no hope..and funny enough im not really one of the "no hopers" i prob will pass the exam but i am bad at irish!

Fad

ooPabsoo wrote: »

its not that i dont like irish....i can understand the concept of keeping the national language alive but im never going to use a word of it again in my life so i dont see the point in having it as an exam...the teacher is trying her best to get most of the class to pass the exam.some of the class have no hope..and funny enough im not really one of the "no hopers" i prob will pass the exam but i am bad at irish!

Thing is though, I will, I mean at times I've gone out of my way to put effort into a subject I have to do anyway.

Problem is, that alot of people use the excuse "I don't get Irish", because they they just couldn't be arsed.

samhail

same with me - i only got interested in irish after the leaving cert. though i agree those poems and stories and crap you need to memorise in a language you dont know is totally off putting !
i think i nearly did the foundation irish for the leaving but went for the pass ni 6th and got an ok mark in it.

Its better to get it under your belt in case you need it (for a government type job in the future)

Casok

Irish should most definetely remain complusory but the curriculum should be changed... when it gets to the stage that people can speak more french than their native language u know somethings wrong... people shouldn't be made to study poems or stories until they can speak the language at a moderate level as it is now just a "suck it in, spit it out" test which a language test should never be! Hope u get ur mojo i mean motivation back soon sweeno lol

ooPabsoo

Fad wrote: »

Problem is, that alot of people use the excuse "I don't get Irish", because they they just couldn't be arsed.

your right with that statement...but why arent people arsed to work their socks off at the language? because at ordinary level you get 5 points for a d3...whats the point?studying the language for donkeys years and getting 30 points or whatever...which would require work....and that excessive work for 30 points would disrupt my other results in subjects that i would do well in.All for a language that i will personally never use again in my life....

Fad

ooPabsoo wrote: »

your right with that statement...but why arent people arsed to work their socks off at the language? because at ordinary level you get 5 points for a d3...whats the point?studying the language for donkeys years and getting 30 points or whatever...which would require work....and that excessive work for 30 points would disrupt my other results in subjects that i would do well in.All for a language that i will personally never use again in my life....

As a HL student I would turn around and say the OL paper is easy, and that wouldn't really be fair. But! it isnt a difficult paper for OL especially, you just need to know the gist of the stories not much else, be able to say I liked it etc, not that much else. Its not hugely productive but its not difficult either.

And if people put any sort of effort before the Junior Cert, Leaving Cert shouldn't be too much of a problem

ooPabsoo

Fad wrote: »

Its not hugely productive but its not difficult either.

i dont think thats a very fair opinion at all. your in HL because your good at irish and can speak the language very well. The leaving cert is set with a moto to challenge even the most gifted students so to say the OL paper isn't difficult is wrong. its not difficult for YOU but is difficult with differant irish abilitys. Id say the geography OL paper is easy enough for ME but is challenging for other students who sit the paper

Fad

ooPabsoo wrote: »

i dont think thats a very fair opinion at all. your in HL because your good at irish and can speak the language very well. The leaving cert is set with a moto to challenge even the most gifted students so to say the OL paper isn't difficult is wrong. its not difficult for YOU but is difficult with differant irish abilitys. Id say the geography OL paper is easy enough for ME but is challenging for other students who sit the paper

If you're going to quote me on something read the entire paragraph at least!

I said its not exactly fair for me to say it, but I do think its a relatively easy subject, even for people who've been doing OL the entire time, there really isnt that much required of you, so I dont get the complaints.....

Unregistered.

Fad wrote: »

If you're going to quote me on something read the entire paragraph at least!

I said its not exactly fair for me to say it, but I do think its a relatively easy subject, even for people who've been doing OL the entire time, there really isnt that much required of you, so I dont get the complaints.....

I know what you mean, as I did HL right up til Xmas in 6th year coz I didn't want to have to study for Irish, I was struggling to get above 40% in exams.
So I went in to O.L. and I was laughing, got on not a bother, came out with a B1 in the end.
However not for one second could I ignore the work others were putting in. There were guys in that O.L. class studying their brains out to pass the exams. It does matter to a lot of people in OL. But just because they "don't get it", doesn't mean they're not trying.

G'd luck.

blue-army

Fad wrote: »

it isnt a difficult paper for OL especially, you just need to know the gist of the stories not much else, be able to say I liked it etc, not that much else. Its not hugely productive but its not difficult either.

I agree with that, but Paper 2 is only worth 20%! Still, teachers spend most time on the poetry and stories...

I went in to look at my paper in August after the LC. I actually got 100% in Paper 2 but only got a B1 overall...

Toto Wolfcastle

Speaking as an Irish teacher, I can understand why the motivation is not there. The curriculum is far too hard. A lot of people (not all) are entering secondary school with little Irish and are expected to do stuff that is too hard. At Ordinary Level for the Leaving Cert. there is far to much poetry/prose involved. I don't believe that the curriculum should be dumbed down, but certainly a different approach is needed. My main focus is to get my students to do well by whatever means possible. I'm working in a flawed system and I know that us Irish teachers are doing the best we can. (Well, most of us!)

All I can say to you, OP, is that it will be over soon. It's unfortunate that you don't enjoy it, but the fact is that you have to do it. Put the head down and keep at it at a steady pace and you will get through it.

Best of luck!

dlofnep

Poetry is worthless.

Teach people conversational Irish. When people actually have a grasp on speaking the language, then you can worry about poetry. And that Janeybabe is the problem with the current Gaeilge curriculum.

here.from.day.1

I always hated Irish up to the JC, couldnt understand anything about it. Went to the Gaeltacht that summer and again the year after and it changed the way I felt about it, did the world of good for my Irish. Only did pass in the LC but got an A2 which for me was great.

ooPabsoo

here.from.day.1 wrote: »

Went to the Gaeltacht that summer

i've tried the gaeltacht aswel but kinda got through it without speaking irish!hehe was a laugh though.......

Toto Wolfcastle

dlofnep wrote: »

Poetry is worthless.

Teach people conversational Irish. When people actually have a grasp on speaking the language, then you can worry about poetry. And that Janeybabe is the problem with the current Gaeilge curriculum.

Keep a couple of poems. But I agree with the rest.

dlofnep

janeybabe wrote: »

Keep a couple of poems. But I agree with the rest.

I don't see why? They don't really assist in learning the language. All they do is make you spend time on memorizing. A language isn't something you memorize, it's something you need to immerse yourself it. Use it, practice it.

All these classes spent on the likes of poems could be used for students to practice using the language, and asking questions on how to structure a sentence, or ask a question a certain way and so forth.

Poems and the likes are grand for Gaeltacht areas where people can actually speak the language, but outside of na Gaeltachtaí - I think the primary focus should be on language immersion.

Toto Wolfcastle

A couple of poems just to foster an appreciation for Irish literature.

dlofnep

janeybabe wrote: »

A couple of poems just to foster an appreciation for Irish literature.

What's the point if they can't understand the language itself, or speak it? What they are doing is translating the poem back into English, and then appreciating it in English. They aren't appreciating Irish literature.

It's a waste of time when a student doesn't even have a grasp for very basic conversational level Irish. It wastes valuable time which could be spent on teaching how to speak the language.

They would appreciate the language more if they could actually speak it.

Toto Wolfcastle

dlofnep wrote: »

What's the point if they can't understand the language itself, or speak it? What they are doing is translating the poem back into English, and then appreciating it in English. They aren't appreciating Irish literature.

It's a waste of time when a student doesn't even have a grasp for very basic conversational level Irish. It wastes valuable time which could be spent on teaching how to speak the language.

They would appreciate the language more if they could actually speak it.

*sigh*

If the majority of time is spent on the language itself from 1st year onwards, then students will be able to actually speak it, and therefore it would be easier to do a couple of poems.

There will always be those who are against it, and there will always be lazy students though.

dlofnep

You're not getting my point. My point is that - As it currently stands, the majority of students haven't one IOTA of conversational Irish (which is the only aspect that actually counts).

Until we can correct the curriculum to where they can speak it, we should severely limit the time on areas that will not give them functional conversational Irish.

It's not that I'm against poems persay, but rather the time they they take up which could be otherwise used for production study of conversational Irish. As a person who has picked up the language over the past year by just speaking it - I can confirm firsthand that conversational Irish is really the most functional way of learning it.

Toto Wolfcastle

No, you're not getting my point. My idea involves a drastic change to the entire curriculum.

We agree with each other! Mostly!

dlofnep

What proposals do you have for the curriculum? As you can see, mine revolves heavily around conversational Irish.

PS: Did you fill out the Plean2028 form a few months back?

Fad

dlofnep wrote: »

What proposals do you have for the curriculum? As you can see, mine revolves heavily around conversational Irish.

But that would have to problem of having students not being able to adequately write the language which is essential too!

dlofnep

Fad wrote: »

But that would have to problem of having students not being able to adequately write the language which is essential too!

I'm not advocating the removal of grammar classes for Irish at all. Keep them. But I think the classes should be divided in school - 2 days for grammar, 2 for conversational.. Both will compliment each other. As it stands, far too much focus is put on written Irish, but I find that speaking the language is a quicker learning curve, and you can work alongside that quick learning curve with your grammar - which will enable you to learn that at a much quicker rate also.

It's very simple. When you are a child, you learn basic English before you reach school, without ever having looked at a book or being taught grammar. And how? By listening to people speak English, and by speaking it yourself. It's this kind of foundation that children need, so when the time comes for intensive grammar - they actually understand what is going on.

If Irish is going to remain a subject in the Irish curriculum then children should get their bang for the buck. It's pointless learning Irish if you cannot speak it after 13 years of education. And the only way a child will get their bang for their buck is giving them an opportunity to use the language.. Let people have classes to discuss things as Gaeilge.. Last nights football match, nintendo games, some girl who lives across the street, a movie that's in the cinema.. Whatever.. Just normal everyday, conversational stuff. That's what people need to learn..

Fad

dlofnep wrote: »

If Irish is going to remain a subject in the Irish curriculum then children should get their bang for the buck. It's pointless learning Irish if you cannot speak it after 13 years of education. And the only way a child will get their bang for their buck is giving them an opportunity to use the language.. Let people have classes to discuss things as Gaeilge.. Last nights football match, nintendo games, some girl who lives across the street, a movie that's in the cinema.. Whatever.. Just normal everyday, conversational stuff. That's what people need to learn..

But how can the same educations system end up with me, who can have a chat about last nights football etc. I dont go out of my way with Irish, and I'm a pretty average student resultswise.

Also everyday stuff would kinda just stop being interesting after a while.

dlofnep

Fad wrote: »

But how can the same educations system end up with me, who can have a chat about last nights football etc. I dont go out of my way with Irish, and I'm a pretty average student resultswise.

The vast majority of students cannot speak the language with any reasonable level of fluency. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that you enjoy the language with a name like Fad. If you enjoy something, you'll progress more at it. Some people find languages easy to grasp - But it doesn't change the fact that after 13 years, the overwhelming majority of students can not have a realistic conversation in Irish.

Fad wrote: »

Also everyday stuff would kinda just stop being interesting after a while.

The idea is to build up your conversational grasp of the language to the level where you can discuss whatever you want once you hit leaving cert level. What you discuss isn't important as being able to discuss it.

People cannot speak the language. If you think that there is an argument for not putting serious time into the conversational aspect of the language, I'd like to hear it - Other than you being bored by it.

Dubs

i think speaking irish conversationally should start in primary school. I really wish i had gone to an all irish speaking school when i was younger because i know it would have helped a lot. In a way i kind of think they should make all schools irishp speaking, but that might be a bit unfair to foreign students.

i still think there should be some poetry on the course though because it gives the people who arent the best speakers a chance at showing their skills in another way.

Fad

dlofnep wrote: »

The vast majority of students cannot speak the language with any reasonable level of fluency. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that you enjoy the language with a name like Fad. If you enjoy something, you'll progress more at it. Some people find languages easy to grasp - But it doesn't change the fact that after 13 years, the overwhelming majority of students can not have a realistic conversation in Irish.

I have no clue what you're talking about when it comes the the username thing:o
I do enjoy Irish, but I enjoy most of my subjects. I have a few reasons that I have intention of broadcasting on what motivates me with Irish, but at the same time, I dont have any better teachers, or an easier syllabus, I think its grand the way it is. At HL anyway.

In all seriousness, if someone has a problem with the poem Gealt, they should most likely be looking for a dispensation when it comes to languages, it doesnt any simpler!

Dante

Fad wrote: »

In all seriousness, if someone has a problem with the poem Gealt, they should most likely be looking for a dispensation when it comes to languages, it doesnt any simpler!

Its all down to the way the subject was taught beforehand. I can see it with a lot of people in my school....they don't understand the poems and stories etc. because they've never been taught the basics of the language....just cramming in stories and poems won't help them grasp the language and enjoy it. Had i been taught properly, I'd still be in higher level getting reasonable grades instead of being stuck in ordinary level hating the subject more and more everyday. I don't think my class has spoken Irish for more than 5 minutes since I dropped to ordinary in 5th year. Something is obviously wrong with the teachers and the way its taught.

Fad

DaaaaaaaaaaN wrote: »

Something is obviously wrong with the teachers and the way its taught.

Its easy to blame the teacher, more than likely they're not a fault.......

What is being taught isnt ideal, but it will have to do

I think that its more, there is something wrong with the student, and the was it is(nt) being learned.

PurpleFistMixer

Fad wrote: »

I have no clue what you're talking about when it comes the the username thing:o

dlofnep possibly does what I do and reads Fad as an Irish word meaning "length", etc. : p

dlofnep

PFM is correct

Unregistered.

Fad wrote: »

But that would have to problem of having students not being able to adequately write the language which is essential too!

If you were to choose one or the other though....

doggone

My children all went to an Irish speaking school and it was never easy because somewhere the present Irish is not what should be in the dna of real Irish people. Amazed though that people find it so hard when they have not got a psycho beating it into them.:eek:

Fad

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

dlofnep possibly does what I do and reads Fad as an Irish word meaning "length", etc. : p

I had a suspicion of that but the tale of my username not quite so graceful (I shall take that tale now though) the real tale is best left as a mystery to all but myself............