Reasonable Mic for Upright Piano

jimi_t

Looking for a usable (as in sub 200) for upright piano. SM57 just doesn't cut it; met someone in Whelans who recommended me a ribbon mic but I was in rough shape.. :rolleyes: Think it was a Naiant or something. Any suggestions?

(Also, some tips on proper mic placement and such would be much appreciated)

PaulBrewer

jimi_t wrote: »

Looking for a usable (as in sub 200) for upright piano. SM57 just doesn't cut it; met someone in Whelans who recommended me a ribbon mic but I was in rough shape.. :rolleyes: Think it was a Naiant or something. Any suggestions?

(Also, some tips on proper mic placement and such would be much appreciated)

At the risk of repeating repeating repeating myself - the mic is only part of the chain.

In fact a 57 should do a good job on an upright going through a good pre and A2D.

However often the same mics used on vocals are used on piano i.e. large diaphragm condensers - sE is the range we supply. The 2200A being the big seller under Euro 200.

Nady make a reasonable ribbon, none for under 200 as I recall.

A ribbon is, in my opinion, a specialist mic and I believe there's a substantial argument to be made for buying multi purpose tools - especially if you're only starting.

Lastly, Whelans probably isn't the best recording school in town!;)

i57dwun4yb1pt8

again, alot of people get nice results on piano with the oktava mk12

and from what i hear the SE ranges are in the same league - high qual low cost mics.

do a search

studiorat

Octava, SE and CAD are all good makes and reliable. If you are looking for a cheap ribbon mic I's go for Cascade. Cascade but Chinese mics and upgrade and tune them and re-sell.

Keithaburke

jimi_t wrote: »

Looking for a usable (as in sub 200) for upright piano. SM57 just doesn't cut it; met someone in Whelans who recommended me a ribbon mic but I was in rough shape.. :rolleyes: Think it was a Naiant or something. Any suggestions?

(Also, some tips on proper mic placement and such would be much appreciated)

I did my thesis on mics...

What is in your mix? Are there other instruments? Or is it piano on it's own?

A lot of books recommend those contact mics... what are they called again? PZM (pressure zone microphones). You get quite an even response over the enitre frequency range... seemingly. I wonder if you'd pick up one of those on ebay, as not too many people really know what they are.

If you're recording as part of a band... the 57, or a coincident pair of them, is possibly a good bet, because you'll be aiming to cut out a good bit of the bottom frequencies anyway. (pianos make mixes very saggy-bummed down in the low frequencies if there's a bass and a kick drum already there... and acoustic guitars also compete for bassiness at around 180 hz).

You'll want a kind of honkier sound in a band mix.

I wouldn't really go for a ribbon myself. Their polar pattern is figure of 8... so that won't really help you. They're also very delicate.

Keith

PaulBrewer

Keithaburke wrote: »

I did my thesis on mics...

Tell us more about this thesis then ? -

PZM's aren't normally referred to as contact mics but boundary mics.

They became very popular for a while in the mid 80s when Radio Shack's Tandy brand made one that was easily converted to be phantom powered.
£23 Sterling I seem to remember them costing!

Crown, Shure and AKG still make them. As I recall Crown made the first popular 'pro' one.

'Contact mics' had their time, also in the 80s, mostly under the C-ducer brand. (there may have been others)
They were a stick- on plastic tape of various lengths that attached directly onto the instrument (hence the 'contact' moniker) I'm not sure how they worked, perhaps piezo technology ?

They were popular for a while on 'real' pianos for live work and sometimes drums. Their advantage was isolation - their disadvantage was they sounded shyte ... or at least much EQ was needed.

An example of C-ducers was The Cure's '17 seconds' album. The drums were recorded with contact mics to be 'ambientless' .

Unlike PZMs they must be stuck onto the instrument they're picking up, hence the 'Contact Mic' name.

PZMs were often stuck to the lids of pianos (there are still Gaffer Tape Glue marks on Westland Studios piano!) and on walls and ceilings for drums, but don't need to be in 'contact' with the instrument.
I also recall 1 metre square pieces of perspex being mounted on mic stands as PZM mounting surfaces.

If I remember correctly the low end frequency response extended the bigger the surface the PZM was mounted on.

Whilst a grand pianos lid is an ideal surface for PZM mounting, due to an upright's build, I think they would be less than ideal.

Eric Cartman

Rode NT1A , its a really good large condensor microphone, get a decent shock mount for it, the only thing it needs is phantom power , but a phantom power unit or even just a pre-amp (if your connecting to a PC is good enough)

to mount get a decent boom arm stand and have the microphone effectively floating on top of the piano

http://www.thomann.de/ie/prod_cbundle_74.html?gk=migr&cbcid=454&art=43678 215 euro for all you need

PaulBrewer

Feck .... they're still going ...

http://www.c-ducer.com/

and it's a 'capacitive transducer'

Keithaburke

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Tell us more about this thesis then ? -

PZM's aren't normally referred to as contact mics but boundary mics.

They became very popular for a while in the mid 80s when Radio Shack's Tandy brand made one that was easily converted to be phantom powered.
£23 Sterling I seem to remember them costing!

Crown, Shure and AKG still make them. As I recall Crown made the first popular 'pro' one.

There you go then. Yes it was boundry mics I was thinking of... not contact ones. I've never actually used them myself. I read about them though. Maybe it was bob katz... or maybe someone else. I remember a few books swearing they were great for pianos.

If you manage to get one on ebay for 23 quid... jeepers, there's nothing to loose in trying them.

The only thing I've used resebling a contact mic is the clip on guitar tuner I used to have. I did sound at a gig once where guys used those clip on mics (from guitar tuners) on all sort of things. Sounded very eclectic.

My thesis was about mics and their uses. It covered polar patterns & maths behind it, condensor/ dynamic/ ribbon/ piezo, physics & electronics and standing waves, dbs etc. and then went into stereo recording techniques. I really enjoyed it.

Keith

jimi_t

Cheers for all the detailed replies.

Basically I'm lucky enough to have one of the highest end Yamaha models at home and I'm looking to record it on its own, but without too much ambience so that it will play nice in a mix with synths and such. I've tried SM57 with the lid up, lid down, front off etc.. but wasn't terribly pleased with my results. I'll probably stay away from piezo/pzm/contact mics for the time being, just in terms of me needing the best bang for the buck from my money these days.

So out of:
Oktava mk12
sE 2200a
Rode NT1A

Which would suit me best?

Another issue is that my interface is complete crap, USB1.1 and no phantom power (Tascam US-428) - most of my stuff is done in-DAW. Whats the cheapest possible preamp I could get away with if I'm going down that route?

fitz

Mac or PC?

PaulBrewer

Keithaburke wrote: »

If you manage to get one on ebay for 23 quid... jeepers, there's nothing to loose in trying them.

They were £23 New in the 80s!

Jimbo808

Keithaburke wrote: »

I did my thesis on mics...



A lot of books recommend those contact mics... what are they called again? PZM (pressure zone microphones). You get quite an even response over the enitre frequency range... seemingly.

???