Rescue Plan for Jobless Graduates

MikeCork2009

So the government in the UK is planning to help out the 300K+ recent graduates who have not been able to get jobs because of recruitment freezes and the cutting of graduate recruitment by companies.

Read article here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/educ ... 821629.stm

Meanwhile the Irish government seems blind to the plight of its forgotten graduates, happy to allow them to swell the ranks of the unemployed masses or allow them to emmigrate abroad looking for non-existant jobs (its a global crisis duh!!). The loss of 1900 jobs at DELL is terrible and the government promises to mobilise teams etc to try and get new investment into the mid-west, however, there are thousands of undergrad and postgrad students now on the dole or still out of work from 2008 with more to follow in 2009 and nobody has said a word. Anyway with the economy not expected to be back on an even keel here till 2013 at the earliest what the heck are the current and future graduates supposed to do? At the moment we are staring at an educational conveyor belt with graduates simply falling off at the end into an unemployment abyss. Something needs to be done!!

Serafijn

IBEC have been running a similar scheme for six month placements in Ireland. I know my company has been involved and a good few others too. Ours were advertised on irishjobs and we took several grads on this way. I expect there will be more next year so keep your eyes peeled.

RoseBlossom

I think it's a good idea...and if the money is there it should seriously be considered. However, I think, to be fair, graduates are in a better situation than many in the current climate - they will probably get first pick for most positions, even when a degree isn't required, and in the worst case scenario, emigration is more feasible for them than someone with only a LC and no trade.

If there is to be a scheme like this put in place, there should be a corresponding scheme put in place for non-grads, maybe something like employer tax-breaks.

michael_23

I agree, something really needs to be done for grads and the 18 -25 non-grad sector, especially considering the recent CSO statistics for that group! I finished college in Aug 08 with a bachelors and a masters and I still havnt found anything. I know dozens of recent graduates in a similar situation.!! Some sort of initiative like this should be implemented before the next batch of graduates enter the already overcrowded market. Supply and Demand ehh...

MikeCork2009

I have a BSc in Finance and an MSc in Financial Economics (these qualifications are gr8, would have walked into any finance job 2 years ago or so I am told but given the state of the financial sector globally there are no jobs for these qualifications) Its very frustrating to hear the government saying we need to get people re-skilled, think about doing a FAS course or something. The fact of the matter is that graduates are already skilled and trained up to the eyeballs, you dont go to college for 5 years and study a discipline for the fun of it. The government must take a 2 pronged approach. Firstly, resources should be directed at training and helping those out of work who have not had the benefit of getting a college qualification and enticing employers to take on those ppl out of work. These people have been contributing to the success of this country for years and now need a helping hand when times are tough. Secondly, resources and structures must be put in place to help graduates. These are the future of this country and must not be allowed to simply end up on the scrap heap or worse still emmigrate away - when things pick up we will need these graduates to attract investment to our economy.

AARRRGH

You can't compare the Dell situation with the graduate situation - completely different demographics.

Also, the Government does a huge amount of work to help graduates - aren't they continuously trying to attract foreign investment?

Regarding the UK - a three month internship is better than nothing - but if companies aren't hiring, they're not hiring. A better tact would be to make your country more competitive, for example, graduates should start on beginner wages, not the fantasy land 30 - 40k a lot of them expect. Graduates should also realise it is normal to not immediately find work within their field, especially if you studied something semi-irrelevant like Arts. Also, people need to accept that what happened in Ireland over the past 10 years is utterly abnormal - in nearly every country, graduates have always had problems finding work. An education does not in any way guarantee you a job, especially within the field you studied!

I'm a graduate btw and have spent a number of years working in unrelated jobs. I don't have a problem with this as I know it's normal and I tend to just get on with things.

Anyway, enough of that rant, my advice to you is to get your foot in the door and then apply for internal vacanies within the company (e.g. start in the call centre and then apply for system admin jobs if/when they become available.) Also, use your time in the company to get friendly with management/people who can help you - networking/politics will get you a job quicker than a masters degree.

MikeCork2009

Of course you can compare the Dell and graduate situations. What I am comparing is the differing responses, 1900 people in Dell lose their jobs and its all over the news, thousands of graduates come out of college and onto the dole and not a word.

"A better tact would be to make your country more competitive, for example, graduates should start on beginner wages, not the fantasy land 30 - 40k a lot of them expect." Are you serious, how is 30-40k fantasy, have you looked recently at the costs of living in this country? Add to this the economic cost of going to college and wages foregone by studying for a degree and expecting to start on 30-40k is nothing.

I have no problem with starting at the bottom and working my way up but you obviously have no experience of the financial services/banking industry. If you start in the call centre or anywhere in the back office for that matter thats it basically. You learn none of the skills or develop none of what is needed to move up to front office roles. Statistics show that only 1 out of every 100 people who start off in support/back office roles eventually make it to front office. As for networking, having worked in a front office role on an internship during my degree, those people on the trading floor or those "running the show" have very little time or respect for those doing the back office/support roles and working your way up this way is impossible.

AARRRGH

MikeCork2009 wrote: »

Of course you can compare the Dell and graduate situations. What I am comparing is the differing responses, 1900 people in Dell lose their jobs and its all over the news, thousands of graduates come out of college and onto the dole and not a word.

The typical student has no responsibilities and is young. Can you say that about the typical Dell employee? No. They are very different situations.

Also, the Dell problem is localised in one area.

The Dell problem is a lot more serious than the graduate "problem".

MikeCork2009 wrote: »

I have no problem with starting at the bottom and working my way up but you obviously have no experience of the financial services/banking industry. If you start in the call centre or anywhere in the back office for that matter thats it basically. You learn none of the skills or develop none of what is needed to move up to front office roles.

Not true.

I was unemployed a few years ago so I got a job in bank's call centre. I moved into their IT department a few months later.

MikeCork2009 wrote: »

Statistics show that only 1 out of every 100 people who start off in support/back office roles eventually make it to front office. As for networking, having worked in a front office role on an internship during my degree, those people on the trading floor or those "running the show" have very little time or respect for those doing the back office/support roles and working your way up this way is impossible.

Such a defeatest attitude. The recession has only been around a few months and it sounds like you've already given up!

Working your way up anywhere is not impossible. An ex-girlfriend of mine, her father started in the mail room and is now one of the head's of AIB.

You can do it if you want to. It just takes hard work instead of waiting for a hand out...

MikeCork2009

"The typical student has no responsibilities and is young. Can you say that about the typical Dell employee? No."

I agree with that, we are not burdened with mortgages etc but what I am saying is that it is just as much of a problem. You have now got thousands of young people leaving college, many with debts, unable to find employment, and with companies leaving/cutting jobs in Ireland every day. These people are at serious risk of becoming long term unemployed if something is not done.

The impossibility of moving from back to front office in the banking industry IS true. Moving from the call centre to the IT department is just moving from one support area to another. What opportunity would you have to move onto a dealing desk or to do something where you are managing the banks money.

Also the statistic about 1 in 100 moving from back office to front is nothing to do with recessions, that has always been the case. I have spoken to people with substantial experience in the industry and they warned me to be very careful with your first job because thats what the rest of your career will be built from, I was told "go into back office and forget any ideas of being near the money"

Finally the ex-girlfriend's father was in banking in another time. Things have changed dramatically in the industry even in the last 10 years. While moves like that were possible then they are not now due to increased specialisation, the increased complexities of financial products etc.

Also nobody here is wanting a handout. Thats why we don't want to be on the dole. We just want some constructive help from the government. One of the roles of government is to create/sustain employment through fiscal policy. Looking at the rate of unemployment jump by 71% in 2008 shows that something serious needs to be done, both for those who have lost their jobs and those graduates who cannot get jobs.

Tigger

AARRRGH wrote: »

Working your way up anywhere is not impossible. An ex-girlfriend of mine, her father started in the mail room and is now one of the head's of AIB.

that explains that :P

everybody i hear stories like that about tur outto have worked in the mail room for a summer job cos their dad / uncle ran the place

AARRRGH

It is possible to move departments. People do it all the time, such as the example I gave. I did not move from one support role to another support role - I moved to a development role - a completely different job.

The reality is it is abnormal for graduates to walk into a job which matches their qualification. This may have happened somewhat in Ireland during the past 10 years, but that was an exceptional situation.

We have now returned to normal. This means you won't get the job of your dreams (not immediately, at least), and you won't start on 30 - 40k.

You need to get your foot in the door and use office politics and hard work to get where you want to be. Waiting for someone to hand you an opportunity or refusing to accept an imperfect job will just result in the dole.

Seriously, what's happening now is normal - what happened before was abnormal. I agree the government should always be doing whatever they can to improve things for us, but I wouldn't hold your breath!

Remember, Ireland is a small, insignificant country with a tiny economy. We should not expect to walk into our dream job, or the job we "deserve".

Abstar

Agree with you MickCork2009.

AARRGH - like Mike said - graduates aren't asking for a handout. But it's fairly ridiculous to have the state paying huge amounts of money each year to fund third level education and for those graduates to leave university to languish on the dole. And contrary to your claims concerning "fantasy land 30 - 40k", I assure you that any graduate I know of, who's trying to get a foot on the career ladder, is willing to work for pittance.

I'm aware of a law graduate (with an undergraduate law degree and masters in law) who worked throughout his time at college. Accordingly, he's entitled to €204 unemployment benefit each week - a sum that is not subject to means testing because of his prsi contributions. Surely offering him a few hours work in some under-resourced govt dept would be more efficient use of this money? And this btw, is what he says himself. He finds it demoralising claiming the benefit but he simply cannot get any type of job.

That said, of course the Dell saga is massive and certainly, everything should be done to help those affected. But a 2-pronged approach is certainly called for.

AARRRGH

Abstar wrote: »

AARRGH - like Mike said - graduates aren't asking for a handout. But it's fairly ridiculous to have the state paying huge amounts of money each year to fund third level education and for those graduates to leave university to languish on the dole. And contrary to your claims concerning "fantasy land 30 - 40k", I assure you that any graduate I know of, who's trying to get a foot on the career ladder, is willing to work for pittance.

But the government aren't doing nothing - they are constantly trying to attract foreign investment. The Irish government have been very successful at doing this in the past.

The UK plan is mostly a PR exercise - they have to be seen to do something.

Abstar wrote: »

Surely offering him a few hours work in some under-resourced govt dept would be more efficient use of this money? And this btw, is what he says himself. He finds it demoralising claiming the benefit but he simply cannot get any type of job.

If you are talking about a work-for-the-dole system, then I would agree with you - people should not be allowed claim the dole when there are tons of menial jobs they could be doing (such as cleaning the street.) If it is possible to match the jobseeker with something which is more suitable to their skills and experience, all the better.

But I think it is lazy to dismiss the traditional "foot in the door" way of getting the job you want.

MikeCork2009

Abstar wrote: »

Agree with you MickCork2009.

I'm aware of a law graduate (with an undergraduate law degree and masters in law) who worked throughout his time at college. Accordingly, he's entitled to €204 unemployment benefit each week - a sum that is not subject to means testing because of his prsi contributions. Surely offering him a few hours work in some under-resourced govt dept would be more efficient use of this money? And this btw, is what he says himself. He finds it demoralising claiming the benefit but he simply cannot get any type of job.

Exactly. Why don't the government set up organisations (similar to the Youth Reach ones for unskilled youth) for graduates where they can use/develop the skills which they learned at college e.g. get economics graduates doing economic research or developing financial models etc, get science graduates to work on scientific/research works which have been put on hold due to funding cuts. Arts students and those within languages, humanities etc could be utilised in our education system which too is having funding cut. Alternatively deploy graduates into public sector departments, they want to cut costs in this sector already so employing graduates at grad wages would serve this goal. Taking these ppl out of the dole system would be beneficial on many levels. It would keep graduates in training and give them experience making getting a job when things pick up easier, also it would give those in the economy without college education a better chance at securing the jobs out there cos they would not be competing with graduates (who prob would apply for jobs they normally wouldnt apply for just to get off the dole)

MikeCork2009

AARRRGH wrote: »

If you are talking about a work-for-the-dole system, then I would agree with you - people should not be allowed claim the dole when there are tons of menial jobs they could be doing (such as cleaning the street.) If it is possible to match the jobseeker with something which is more suitable to their skills and experience, all the better.

Oh you mean like the job scheme!!!! Get real. I remember the last time the economy was in a state, you had loads of people put out building pointless walls, then they were knocked down and rebuilt. Holes were dug by one group and then filled in by another. Mindless, skillless, meaningless jobs like that do nothing for the economy or those doing them. They are simply PR by the government to make the unemployment figure look smaller. Also if you are suggesting that someone who trained as a doctor or an engineer etc would be as well off sweeping the streets for €204 a week then you need a reality check. We pay taxes for a reason, graduates will be paying taxes for decades to come when they do get jobs. These taxes are partly to support those who cannot get "suitable employment" when things go bad. While nobody likes being on the dole its even more degrading to find yourself doing pointless jobs for your dole money while the government harp on that "we have managed to get unemployment down"

AARRRGH

MikeCork2009 wrote: »

Oh you mean like the job scheme!!!! Get real. I remember the last time the economy was in a state, you had loads of people put out building pointless walls, then they were knocked down and rebuilt. Holes were dug by one group and then filled in by another. Mindless, skillless, meaningless jobs like that do nothing for the economy or those doing them. They are simply PR by the government to make the unemployment figure look smaller. Also if you are suggesting that someone who trained as a doctor or an engineer etc would be as well off sweeping the streets for €204 a week then you need a reality check. We pay taxes for a reason, graduates will be paying taxes for decades to come when they do get jobs. These taxes are partly to support those who cannot get "suitable employment" when things go bad. While nobody likes being on the dole its even more degrading to find yourself doing pointless jobs for your dole money while the government harp on that "we have managed to get unemployment down"

If I understand correctly, you don't want to work in an unrelated job (because it's "impossible" to move departments in a company, and because you shouldn't have to), and the government should assist you to get the exact job you want. In the meantime, you are going to sit on the dole...?

I'm not the one who needs a reality check. Welcome to the real world. You get what you fight for.

MikeCork2009

You don't understand so!!! No I do not want to work in an unrelated job. I did not spend the past 23 years of my life at school and then specialising at college to go off and do a job I could have left school and done. If I was interested in the money side of things I would have left school at 16 and would have been working for 7 years now and prob made a good bit of money. I decided to go to college and train at a discipline to get a job in that area and to use the skills I have learned. I am not asking for the government to get me a job I am asking for them to work to create an environment where I can get a job and in the meantime to assist graduates so they will be better able to get a relevant job when things pick up.

You come across to me as someone who has lacked ambition or focus in their career, happy to go around from unrelated job to job. Well some of us have a plan and have focus in our careers. Many people who spend years at college do so at great expense both in time and money to get a qualification in an area they are interested in. If I am wrong for wanting a job in the area that I enjoy, am interested in and have studied towards for so long then Im not going to apologise for that.

As for sitting on the dole. Its called jobseekers allowance for a reason, you use it to live and to help you while searching for a job (and in my opinion its not half enough to do either) I spend everyday sending off e-mails, meeting with recruiters, attending interviews "fighting" for a job. It just makes me mad to see other governments like the UK lending a helping hand to their graduates while my government lets me to fend for myself. Straight up now when things pick up Irish graduates will be at a big disadvantage compared to their UK counterparts. While they are on government sorted internships gaining experience, we are on the dole or doing jobs not related to our skills. Who are companies going to hire, a computer science grad from Ireland who spent the year working in McDonalds or a UK computer science grad who spent a 6 months internship working with Microsoft!!!

michael_23

I dont think MikeCork 2009 has a defeatist attitude at all, frustrated maybe. Given his background he is clearly looking to move into a specific sector ie a front office trading environment. Having experience as a trader i can tell you that it's notoriously difficult to get a start in the front office environment. Also, I dont believe his career will benefit from taking a position in say telesales, or some totally unrelated roll, how would it?

AARRRGH I take this point, but speaking specifically about MikeCork2009 situation this is nonsense - "You need to get your foot in the door and use office politics and hard work to get where you want to be. Waiting for someone to hand you an opportunity or refusing to accept an imperfect job will just result in the dole." In my experience you need more than networking skills and arse licking to establish a career trading the markets.

Graduates are not looking for handouts or to walk into some high flying job just because they went to college and as a result are suffering from delusions of grandeur!!! The main point is that graduates are the future of this country and to leave them on the sidelines now will be a big mistake. Graduates will emigrate if they cant find work. What was the point in even going to college if when we graduate we enter non related positions that do not require a college education?

I have several good friends who are graduates and they have moved to London to get work. A handful of my classmates have done the same. When this country comes good it will no doubt require graduates and there is no guarantee they will still be hanging around Ireland waiting to fill the void when that time comes!

AARRRGH

MikeCork2009 wrote: »

I do not want to work in an unrelated job.

I'm sorry to hear that, but you probably won't have much of a choice.

MikeCork2009 wrote: »

I did not spend the past 23 years of my life at school and then specialising at college to go off and do a job I could have left school and done. If I was interested in the money side of things I would have left school at 16 and would have been working for 7 years now and prob made a good bit of money. I decided to go to college and train at a discipline to get a job in that area and to use the skills I have learned.

A college education entitles - and guarantees - you to nothing. All it does is give you an education and increase your chance of getting a good job. That's it.

Btw, I have a masters degree and have won awards for academic achievement. I am very much pro-education.

MikeCork2009 wrote: »

I am not asking for the government to get me a job I am asking for them to work to create an environment where I can get a job and in the meantime to assist graduates so they will be better able to get a relevant job when things pick up.

They are already doing this. We have very low corporation tax, and we offer huge tax breaks for companies willing to open offices in Ireland.

MikeCork2009 wrote: »

You come across to me as someone who has lacked ambition or focus in their career, happy to go around from unrelated job to job.

You couldn't be more wrong. I am painfully ambitious and very hard working. I just don't want to sit at home on the dole. I want to work, and I don't have an ego which makes me think I am too good for anything, and I don't feel entitled to anything.

AARRRGH

michael_23 wrote: »

I dont believe his career will benefit from taking a position in say telesales, or some totally unrelated roll, how would it?

It's how you get your foot in the door. People do this all the time. As stated, I have done this myself.

The reality is Ireland will never again have the good times we got used to over the past 10 years. Only the lucky few will walk into the specific job they want.

michael_23

AARRRGH wrote: »

It's how you get your foot in the door. People do this all the time. As stated, I have done this myself.

The reality is Ireland will never again have the good times we got used to over the past 10 years. Only the lucky few will walk into the specific job they want.

As I said previously, i take that point as it has relevance and should be considered for more general roles ie starting as a bank teller and progressing to management. However speaking specifically about MikeCork2009, it does not make sense given the trading profession is a meritocracy. In my experience your ability, numeracy, discipline and intelligence are much more important than who you know. He would be better off offering his services for free in order to gain experience in a trading environment.

Otherwise what was his time spent in college, a very expensive social club?

AARRRGH

michael_23 wrote: »

He would be better off offering his services for free in order to gain experience in a trading environment.

I agree with this, but getting a work-for-free job is difficult too.

michael_23 wrote: »

Otherwise what was his time spent in college, a very expensive social club?

Lots of people don't get a job directly related to their qualification (e.g. nearly every Arts graduate) but their college time was hardly an expensive social club - they got an education.

MikeCork2009

Thank you michael_23, its good to see someone gets my point.AARRRGH - "The reality is Ireland will never again have the good times we got used to over the past 10 years." Now thats a defeatist attitude and the kind of sentiment that inefficient fiscal policy is built upon. Low corporation tax and tax cuts only attracted investment but was not able to sustain it e.g. Dell while other firms, mostly financial, simply loacated their headquarters in Ireland for those very tax purposes, most of the work done here was not at the front office level but simply support, these firms had no interest in our graduates. They have to do something more to ensure our graduates can get good jobs in Ireland rather than emmigrating.I think you said you work in IT for a bank. You, whether you like to admit it or not, have benefited from gov assistance in the recession. Banking staff (and a lot more industries indirectly) in Ireland had their jobs saved when the government stepped in to back the banks. Now a little bit of that for our graduates is all Im asking for.

michael_23

AARRRGH wrote: »

I agree with this, but getting a work-for-free job is difficult too.

Did you say MickCork2009 had a defeatist attitude!?! How does that one go about the kettle and the pot again?

AARRRGH wrote: »

Lots of people don't get a job directly related to their qualification (e.g. nearly every Arts graduate) but their college time was hardly an expensive social club - they got an education.

I would agree and even say all Arts grads move into a position unrelated. Yes of course they got a good education and college was not a waste of time for them. However i was speaking SPECIFICALLY about MikeCork2009 when i said -
"Otherwise what was his time spent in college, a very expensive social club?"

AARRRGH

MikeCork2009 wrote: »

AARRRGH - "The reality is Ireland will never again have the good times we got used to over the past 10 years." Now thats a defeatist attitude

No, it's reality. We have many years of trouble ahead of us, and we're only at the beginning. Our economy is in serious trouble.

MikeCork2009 wrote: »

Low corporation tax and tax cuts only attracted investment but was not able to sustain it e.g. Dell while other firms, mostly financial, simply loacated their headquarters in Ireland for those very tax purposes, most of the work done here was not at the front office level but simply support, these firms had no interest in our graduates. They have to do something more to ensure our graduates can get good jobs in Ireland rather than emmigrating.

You are saying low corporation tax and tax cuts are unsustainable, and we need an alternative way (i.e. not foreign investment) to create and give jobs to Irish people?

I am sure the government would love to hear your suggestions.

You do know Ireland is a tiny, insignificant economy, right? Without foreign investment we would still be poor. You may not like it, but we rely unbelievably on foreign companies opening offices here.

MikeCork2009 wrote: »

I think you said you work in IT for a bank. You, whether you like to admit it or not, have benefited from gov assistance in the recession. Banking staff (and a lot more industries indirectly) in Ireland had their jobs saved when the government stepped in to back the banks. Now a little bit of that for our graduates is all Im asking for.

No, I don't work for a bank.

Btw, I think the government should always be doing everything it can to make this country as great as possible, but it is unreasonable to expect to work in the exact job you want, especially straight out of college! Currently you are fairly worthless to an employer.

AARRRGH

AARRRGH wrote: »

I agree with this, but getting a work-for-free job is difficult too.

michael_23 wrote: »

Did you say MickCork2009 had a defeatist attitude!?! How does that one go about the kettle and the pot again?

I said I agree with you, but I know most companies don't like hiring people for free. It's worth a try though, of course.

AARRRGH wrote: »

However i was speaking SPECIFICALLY about MikeCork2009 when i said -
"Otherwise what was his time spent in college, a very expensive social club?"

I am not saying MikeCork2009 wasted his time in college, I am saying as a recent graduate he cannot afford to be picky.

MikeCork2009

Originally Posted by AARRRGH
it is unreasonable to expect to work in the exact job you want, especially straight out of college! Currently you are fairly worthless to an employer.

Are you being serious??? Why do companies have graduate recruitment so? Why does the government put so much funding into 3rd level education. What about all the training and skills you learn in college, which is often at a level higher/more up to date than those already in industry. Cheap insults are childish!!

Originally Posted by AARRRGH
You are saying low corporation tax and tax cuts are unsustainable, and we need an alternative way (i.e. not foreign investment) to create and give jobs to Irish people?

I am sure the government would love to hear your suggestions.

Well they obviously are are they not? Why were they not enough to keep Dell here and the pahrmaceutical industry in cork? The government has built its policy far too much on attracting investment with low taxes rather than on better infrastructure (road, rail, communications, public transport) and a greater link up between the public, private and 3rd level institutions to create highly skilled and high end work areas.

Originally Posted by AARRRGH
No, I don't work for a bank.

Well firstly so how are you so knowledgeable about the recruiting processes and job advancement in financial institutions and secondly the fact that you were helped by government assistance to the banking sector is still valid as many more people, perhaps even the whole economy, were saved from ruin by this.

AARRRGH

MikeCork2009 wrote: »

Are you being serious??? Why do companies have graduate recruitment so? Why does the government put so much funding into 3rd level education. What about all the training and skills you learn in college, which is often at a level higher/more up to date than those already in industry. Cheap insults are childish!!

Yes, I'm being serious. And no, I'm not insulting you.

Graduates are fairly useless - experience is what counts. Any employer will tell you this.

Yes, you can train up a graduate, but it's a risk. That's why a lot of employers only hire people with experience - they have a reference which proves whether or not they can do the job.

I'm not trying to be harsh, I'm just telling it as it is.

MikeCork2009 wrote: »

Well they obviously are are they not? Why were they not enough to keep Dell here and the pahrmaceutical industry in cork? The government has built its policy far too much on attracting investment with low taxes rather than on better infrastructure (road, rail, communications, public transport) and a greater link up between the public, private and 3rd level institutions to create highly skilled and high end work areas.

In an ideal world all or most of our employers would be home grown, but we don't live in an ideal world... we are already punching above our weight.

I agree with you though that the government could be doing more to help businesses start in Ireland. I have first hand experience of being unable to get any funding to help build my company.

MikeCork2009 wrote: »

Well firstly so how are you so knowledgeable about the recruiting processes and job advancement in financial institutions and secondly the fact that you were helped by government assistance to the banking sector is still valid as many more people, perhaps even the whole economy, were saved from ruin by this.

I know the recruitment industry pretty well as I used to work for Ireland's largest recruitment website (as their financial controller) and I have run a number of jobsites for many years (see my signature.)

I don't work for the bank, so I don't know why you think I gained from government assistance to the banking sector, unless of course, you mean the way we all benefited, i.e. the banks haven't collapsed.

I know on some level we have all benefited from some sort of assitance, for example, free college fees, but I think, as a recent graduate, in an economy which is in trouble and will be in trouble for many years, you are not in a position to pick and choose what you work as.

Do whatever you want, but I think you'll be waiting a while for that dream job!

badabinbadaboom

Maybe if those people currently studying for degrees right now didnt have fanciful ideas about starting wages and benefits they would be finding it easier. People I know currently studying wouldnt even accept a summer job if the pay was less then a tenner an hour.
I think the blame rests on the colleges the way they advertise their courses by making a major point of starting salry expectations is a joke!!
Also many students go into college without ever even having to sit an interview for a job as they either never worked before or had jobs handed to them by relations etc. This has got to be a major disadvantage already even without the economic problems, these people or not skilled in looking for work or work place practice.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

RoseBlossom wrote: »

I think it's a good idea...and if the money is there it should seriously be considered. However, I think, to be fair, graduates are in a better situation than many in the current climate - they will probably get first pick for most positions, even when a degree isn't required, and in the worst case scenario, emigration is more feasible for them than someone with only a LC and no trade.

If there is to be a scheme like this put in place, there should be a corresponding scheme put in place for non-grads, maybe something like employer tax-breaks.

Are you living in a hole or something? Is your region free to live in? College is not free, although it is cheaper than the states and other places, it is by no means cheap... It is bloody expensive, how does someone with a 20K student loan leave the country and search for work? When you need money in the first place to leave?

What is the situation with students with ordinary passes, I don't have a merit or distinction. It's annoying to come out of college and have no job at all. Then being bombarded from banks and others for money. I is sincerely fccuked.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

MikeCork2009 wrote: »

You don't understand so!!! No I do not want to work in an unrelated job. I did not spend the past 23 years of my life at school and then specialising at college to go off and do a job I could have left school and done. If I was interested in the money side of things I would have left school at 16 and would have been working for 7 years now and prob made a good bit of money. I decided to go to college and train at a discipline to get a job in that area and to use the skills I have learned. I am not asking for the government to get me a job I am asking for them to work to create an environment where I can get a job and in the meantime to assist graduates so they will be better able to get a relevant job when things pick up.

You come across to me as someone who has lacked ambition or focus in their career, happy to go around from unrelated job to job. Well some of us have a plan and have focus in our careers. Many people who spend years at college do so at great expense both in time and money to get a qualification in an area they are interested in. If I am wrong for wanting a job in the area that I enjoy, am interested in and have studied towards for so long then Im not going to apologise for that.

As for sitting on the dole. Its called jobseekers allowance for a reason, you use it to live and to help you while searching for a job (and in my opinion its not half enough to do either) I spend everyday sending off e-mails, meeting with recruiters, attending interviews "fighting" for a job. It just makes me mad to see other governments like the UK lending a helping hand to their graduates while my government lets me to fend for myself. Straight up now when things pick up Irish graduates will be at a big disadvantage compared to their UK counterparts. While they are on government sorted internships gaining experience, we are on the dole or doing jobs not related to our skills. Who are companies going to hire, a computer science grad from Ireland who spent the year working in McDonalds or a UK computer science grad who spent a 6 months internship working with Microsoft!!!

No offence mate, but you are not a specialist in anything. College trains you, opens the door, but you need to work and gain experience to become a specialist in anything.

You should also take any job that comes your way, within reason. You cannot afford to be picky. My only limit is location, I won't move to galway or cork for a job but I would commute up to 90 minutes away. Times are tough, take what you can.

The_Conductor

Carmen Crooked Mound wrote: »

No offence mate, but you are not a specialist in anything. College trains you, opens the door, but you need to work and gain experience to become a specialist in anything.

You should also take any job that comes your way, within reason. You cannot afford to be picky. My only limit is location, I won't move to galway or cork for a job but I would commute up to 90 minutes away. Times are tough, take what you can.

I agree. I graduated with a science degree and a postgraduate dip long before the good times rolled in, in Ireland (this was also long before free fees were introduced in Irish universities too). I discovered the only interest any employers had in me was in the fact that I spoke good German and passable French. I accepted that I would have to take a job in a callcentre to pay my bills.

I started out at the very bottom- registering software, selling upgrades to customers, doing phone surveys etc. From there I moved into technical support. Eventually, largely through self training- I got off the floor and was able to focus on specific technical areas of interest to me (4 years later). When my job was eventually outsourced to India- the economic prospects had improved, but so too had my skillset and I had several years experience, both in technical support, but also of managing small teams of people, along with some technical training experience I was able to draw on.

I eventually (7 years later) managed to get into an area where I could make some use of my original undergrad degree- which I supplemented with a second undergrad degree (which I completed through evening classes and lectures while working fulltime) in an area likely to be of assistance in my new role.

You are being totally unrealistic if you expect to be able to walk into a job in the area of your degree/masters. Your university education is training, however- it has to supplemented with experience on the ground before you are of interest to prospective employers.

Given two candidates at interview- one better qualified than the other- but the latter with experience- the latter candidate will almost always be chosen ahead of the person who has only proven they are capable of swotting up and sitting an exam......

Its normal to come in at the bottom and work your way up. It also gives you perspective on the different roles in the company- and a feeling for issues which might arise with your staff- as you may very well have encountered those situations or scenarios yourself.

It was only a very recent development that people could expect to do their the degree and their masters and be recruited into the graduate programmes of the banks or consultancy firms. It never was that way in the past.

Re: the suggestion of taking on graduates for placements in the civil service- this already happens- largely through temporary 3-4 month placements over the summer months. Even this has been massively cutback though- and most graduates see it as below themselves to take a short term placement at civil service wages. It used to be that the AO grade was exclusively graduate recruitment- and indeed fast-tracked for promotion purposes, as very few graduates could be enticed to join the civil service. Times have changed. Even a clerical role with a starting salary barely above minimum wage attracts hundreds of applicants, most of them graduates.

You need to accept that first and foremost a job is a job. You are not going to get your ideal job immediately- but use whatever position you get as a stepping stone towards that job which you aspire to hold. Every post you hold, no matter how menial, does give you insights and experience which are valuable to any employer. Things may be bad, and they may be bad for several years- but those who show themselves to good reliable employees, inevitably do rise to where they aspire to be, though it may take time.

dudara

I have some observations to make on this topic - not being objectionable, just some comments.

1. In Britain, many university students obtain loans to undertake 3rd level education. If these graduates are unemployed, then there are defaults on these loans. It is not in the government's best interest to let this happen.

2. Just because you have university degrees and postgrads does not mean that you are qualified for a job. Very few people walk into a job that exactly matches what they learned in college. It is a misunderstanding that just because you have a college degree, that you are qualified.

3. Young Irish graduates have very different job expectations to previous generations. Deloitte published a report on Generation Y (from a HR point of view). It makes for interesting reading. Due to the recent good times, a whole generation of Irish people have grown up expecting to walk into jobs, and expecting a good salary for doing so. This was an effect of the boom times and is clearly no longer sustainable.

newestUser

Completely agree with Dudara and AAAAAAAAA(?)RGH (although AAA...whatever... is being a tad too antagonistic).

I was a victim of the dot-com crash. Graduated from an IT course in 2000, went travelling for a year, signed on the dole in 2001. By golly, did that experience open my eyes to how naive I had been, and how presumptious I was, assuming that all I had to do to get a good job, with good money, great prospects, etc. was pass a few exams.

I saw the same naivete in many people since, and I'm getting it off several posters in this thread. The labour market at the moment is what it is. Deal with it, and don't waste energy on high falutin' polemics on what a fair world looks like.

<edit> cheers for the link Dudara...but "igeneration"?... <cringe>

Mikel

A few things........
An Msc in Financial Economics? Big deal. Not particularly useful for a trading position, if you think you would have walked into any finance job you liked you are deluded.

Can't move from back office to front office? Nonsense, I know plenty who have, myself included.

You're put out because nothing is being done to allow you pursue our chosen career? Boo hoo!

The Gov will do shag all about Limerick. They'll put together a 'Task Force' and issue reports and blah blah... but it won't come to anything.
The reason being they can't do anything.
Short of finding another multinational needing 2000 semi skilled employees looking for a location there's not much anyone can do.
Maybe it got a lot of media coverage but that's all they'll get.

There's enough problems with the people who are in employment to focus on graduates who are still in or just recently out of the education system.
In general graduates won't have families or mortgages.

The sector you want to work in has had billions of taxpayer funds pumped in to prop it up, a bank nationalised at a cost which could go up to 20bn.
The credit rating of the country as a whole has fallen to such an extent that we will be paying an extra 2% on the billions we will be be borrowing this year.

People are being thrown out of work, others are having their pay slashed, and what exactly is your problem?
You can't get a job related to the area you would LIKE to work in.
Get Real.
How are we supposed to pay for any support schemes? There's no fcuking money!

Here's some free career advice, don't bother trying to become a trader, you don't have what it takes.

MikeCork2009

Mikel. I have done plenty of relevant work at college for a trading position, I have been told so by people who are traders themselves, many of whom have the same degree as myself.

Maybe its cos ppl came up from back office to front that we are in the situation that we are in now. If some of the ppl working in the front office/trading sections of our banks had had any cop on about the intricacies of securitised products and done any research into the messed up products they were trading into then maybe we wouldnt be in this mess that we are now in.

Tony Broke

MikeCork2009 wrote: »

Who are companies going to hire, a computer science grad from Ireland who spent the year working in McDonalds or a UK computer science grad who spent a 6 months internship working with Microsoft!!!

Your not getting ****ed.Those ****tier jobs are going to become common, there is a big club out there and your not in it :pac:

The goverment dont give a **** about you, they have got you by the balls, so stop complaining and go out and take any job you can.You have got your education for free thanks to the workers in McDonalds, so stop looking down on them.If you want to work in trading or whatever you might have to leave, are you prepared to?

Mikel

MikeCork2009 wrote: »

Mikel. I have done plenty of relevant work at college for a trading position, I have been told so by people who are traders themselves, many of whom have the same degree as myself.

Have you really......... what do they trade?
Or are they just corporate dealers?

Maybe its cos ppl came up from back office to front that we are in the situation that we are in now. If some of the ppl working in the front office/trading sections of our banks had had any cop on about the intricacies of securitised products and done any research into the messed up products they were trading into then maybe we wouldnt be in this mess that we are now in.

Who in Ireland was trading these products?

Now you think there's two many people moving from BO into trading?
Previously you thought there was none.

MikeCork2009

They are not corp dealers, I know two who trade energy futures and equities and one who is an FX trader.

I never said there were too many ppl moving from BO, I was just saying that maybe there are ppl in jobs that maybe they aint able for.

professore

MikeCork2009 wrote: »

They are not corp dealers, I know two who trade energy futures and equities and one who is an FX trader.

I never said there were too many ppl moving from BO, I was just saying that maybe there are ppl in jobs that maybe they aint able for.

If you have so many contacts already, then why don't you use them? That's your best chance. How long are you going to stay on the dole? You will have to set a cutoff date otherwise you will become an unemployment statistic. Welcome to the environment I graduated in the early 90's. You need to aim for your ideal career but also be realistic.

Mikel

MikeCork2009 wrote: »

They are not corp dealers, I know two who trade energy futures and equities and one who is an FX trader

Energy futures? In a bank?
Most FX is corporate business, and a monkey could trade FX.
But nobody trading these complex securitised products that they can't understand?

I never said there were too many ppl moving from BO, I was just saying that maybe there are ppl in jobs that maybe they aint able for.

As opposed to you? Why because you would be?
Well lets see...............

Your analysis of the economic situation is poor, your understanding of how banks recruit is plain wrong, and you demonstrate none of the attributes required to work in a trading room.

You know all those things that graduates put on their applications but usually mean f all, initiative, drive, determination. The things they think will impress people?
Well you have a chance to prove them.
When you get an interview be it 3 6 or 12 months down the line what are you going to say you did with your time?

Actually worked on skills which would be useful, not the stuff you learn in college to pass exams?
Maybe learned to code, improved your Excel skills, learned some practical pricing models?
Learned C++, Vba or Matlab?
Bought some pricing books and worked your way through them?
Started trading on your own account?
Maybe got a job which shows that you're willing to do things you don't like to get somewhere and continued studying in the evening?

No, you got a masters degree in finance, considered yourself 'trained up to the eyeballs', (which you're not), and whined that the Gov won't bail you out.

As if the Gov could
1. Create more trading room jobs
2. Would be inclined to do so considering the mess the financial markets
have got us all in

Like I said.
Not. Cut. Out.

Abstar

Why don't the government set up organisations (similar to the Youth Reach ones for unskilled youth) for graduates where they can use/develop the skills which they learned at college e.g. get economics graduates doing economic research or developing financial models etc, get science graduates to work on scientific/research works which have been put on hold due to funding cuts. Arts students and those within languages, humanities etc could be utilised in our education system which too is having funding cut. Alternatively deploy graduates into public sector departments, they want to cut costs in this sector already so employing graduates at grad wages would serve this goal. Taking these ppl out of the dole system would be beneficial on many levels. It would keep graduates in training and give them experience making getting a job when things pick up easier, also it would give those in the economy without college education a better chance at securing the jobs out there cos they would not be competing with graduates (who prob would apply for jobs they normally wouldnt apply for just to get off the dole)

I think some of ye are being a little harsh on MikeCork2009: he's not asking that the government approach every graduate and "bail them out". Read the above quotation from one of his posts and explain why exactly it would be unworkable? No doubt some will mention "training costs" as a barrier: I'm fairly sure anyone finding it difficult to get work, will train for "free" (as in, while still receiving jobseeker's). Give only temporary contracts to these graduates - 3 months or whatever - even if they're out on their ear after 3 months, it's still time well spent (benefiting both the graduate and the state) and valuable experience. Minimum wage is 8.65 an hour, jobseekers is 204: give them only 23 hours work and the state is no less off than it is now.

Of course there are some just waiting for the "perfect" opportunity to fall into their laps but the reality for many graduates at the moment, is that for a lot of positions, they are "over-qualifed"/employers know that they'll be gone as soon as a better opportunity comes along and so they're not bothered hiring them.

Some posters here seem more interested in taking MikeCork down, rather than discussing the topic of the thread.

MikeCork2009

I have used and know how to use Excel to a high level. I know pricing and valuation models, FCFF,FCFE,DCF,Pricing Options, Advanced Derivatives. I know Matlab and Gauss. And I have had rigourous experience it trading, albeit simulated trading on a large scale, and on a smaller scale on my own account.

How do you figure that my understanding of the economic situation is poor? And how do you reckon that I dont get how banks recruit?

And I don't want the government to bail me out.

Look I know what I have done and what I am capable of. I appreciate that i do not have the experience but thats what Im looking for, the chance to put into practice and to use what I have outlined above in a work environment. Now where will I get the opportunity to use pricing models to gain relevant experience for a trading position?

AARRRGH

Look, the reality is it's unlikely you're going to get the job you want for quite some time (possibly years or never, unless you emigrate), so unless you want to stay on the dole indefinitely you need to set aside your ego and go get a job which you feel is "beneath" you.

I'm not sure if you've been keeping up to date with the news, but Ireland is utterly screwed at the moment, and so is our banking system.

dan_d

MikeCork2009, I see your point but you've got to realise that there are very few jobs out there. And you're definitely not going to do yourself any favours in any area of work if you go around with the opinion that some people aren't cut out to do their jobs because they have no educational background in the field they are working in.
Unfortunately, at this point in time the priority is to sort out the economy, and try and stop job losses.Following this, the work for graduates will open up. You are unfortunately in an extremely frustrating position at the moment, but you are not the first person and you won't be the last. You should also realise that graduates are completely useless to the company they are hired by for the first 6-8 months, until they are trained in....and it takes that long, regardless of qualifications.
What it comes down to is this.You can sit here feeling sorry for yourself, trying to get a job in your chosen field every day and getting angrier and angrier.Or....you can look at other options.Emigration is one of those.Given that you are entirely focused on the banking sector, I can't even recommend where you go, because most banks are not in a position to be hiring right now.Failing that, you've got to start looking around at other jobs. The one major piece of advice that's being given right now is to be flexible. What else can you do with the qualifications you have?Start thinking about it, long and hard.You have a fairly versatile degree, if you're willing to use it; you're actually a bit luckier than most.
There's no point complaining that you did what you did because it's what you wanted, and why should you have to leave the country or work in another sector.Life bites, to be quite honest.You do what you have to do to pay the bills, and it sounds to me like you might aswell get over your ego and forget the economic stuff.I'm not that long out of college myself, and not one thing that I did in college am I using today.
You get out of life what you put into it.It doesn't come along and drop presents into your lap.You create your own opportunities.Yes I do actually feel sorry for you; but don't wallow in your own self-pity, go out there, try to help yourself and take what comes along.It could be the best thing that ever happened to you.
As to the British government, they do have to be seen doing something about their situation. I seriously doubt that its going to have much of an effect.