Shops refusing EBS laser card

podge3 · 10-01-2009 3:44pm #1

My wife and I both have EBS Laser "swipe" cards i.e. not chip and PIN.

Lately a lot of shops have refused to accept our cards as they are not "chip and PIN". My wife went to our local EBS to complain and she was told by a gimp who worked there to withdraw her money from an ATM before she went shopping!!

Anyhoo, is there a legal requirement on shops to accept Laser cards whether they be swipe or "chip and PIN".

Tipsy Mac · 10-01-2009 3:57pm

podge3 wrote: »

Anyhoo, is there a legal requirement on shops to accept Laser cards whether they be swipe or "chip and PIN".

Without chip and pin the shop is 100% liable for any fruadulant transaction on your card, with chip and pin you are liable. This is why the shop is not accepting it, they will be liable should your card be stolen.

Oryx · 10-01-2009 4:03pm

The shops are within their rights. Your issue is with EBS who should have got their finger out and made the cards they issue chip and pin.

Lollipops23 · 10-01-2009 4:08pm

where i work,if there's a chip in the card we HAVE TO request a pin...however if there's no chip,we take signature. I remember a member of staff who refused an american man's American Express chip-free card got the head eaten off them by the manager!!!!

dudara · 10-01-2009 5:55pm

Moved to Banking & Insurance & Pensions

dudara

eth0_ · 10-01-2009 8:15pm

podge3 wrote: »

My wife and I both have EBS Laser "swipe" cards i.e. not chip and PIN..

Swipe cards haven't been allowed for over a year now. Chip and pin ONLY.

eth0_ · 10-01-2009 8:16pm

Lollipops23 wrote: »

where i work,if there's a chip in the card we HAVE TO request a pin...however if there's no chip,we take signature. I remember a member of staff who refused an american man's American Express chip-free card got the head eaten off them by the manager!!!!

True enough if it's a foreign card, but AFAIK in Ireland if it's an Irish card and there's no chip then it won't be accepted.

podge3 · 10-01-2009 11:14pm

eth0_ wrote: »

Swipe cards haven't been allowed for over a year now. Chip and pin ONLY.

Can you point me to some legislation/directives about this?

I would like something concrete to show the gobdaws at the EBS.

BuffyBot · 11-01-2009 5:26am

No laws. Try chipandpin.ie, and the Irish Payment Services Organisation who were behind the roll out of Chip and Pin. See what they have to say...

Slice · 11-01-2009 11:25am

I didn't think EBS offer debit cards anymore...

podge3 · 11-01-2009 2:43pm

BuffyBot wrote: »

No laws. Try chipandpin.ie, and the Irish Payment Services Organisation who were behind the roll out of Chip and Pin. See what they have to say...

Thanks for that.

Unfortunately the info on the site seems to back uo the EBS' stance i.e

chipandpin.ie wrote:

Your existing card will remain acceptable at retail outlets even if the retailer uses a Chip and PIN terminal. You can continue to use your old card as you always have done by signing a paper receipt to validate the transaction.

axer · 12-01-2009 12:28am

There is no legal requirement for any shop to take any card (unless they are under some contractual agreement with a credit card provider). Shops can just say no for whatever reason they want (as long as it is not discrimination).

podge3 · 12-01-2009 10:57am

axer wrote: »

There is no legal requirement for any shop to take any card

Thats what i thought myself TBH.

The only legal tender in this country is "proper" money and AFAIK shops cannot refuse this unless its counterfeit. If you arrive in tescos with a wheelbarrow of 1 cent coins then they have to accept it as it is legal currency.

Cards and cheques ar not legal tender and can probably be refused.

daithijjj · 12-01-2009 11:30am

actually, i believe shops do have an obligation to accept any card that is advertised 'in store', you know the type........"we accept solo, switch, visa, mastercard" etc. At point of sale you can only refuse payment type if you believe a fraudulent transaction is occuring or the card is damaged in some way. Many large companies do not accept AMEX ,surprisingly.

axer · 12-01-2009 12:27pm

podge3 wrote: »

The only legal tender in this country is "proper" money and AFAIK shops cannot refuse this unless its counterfeit. If you arrive in tescos with a wheelbarrow of 1 cent coins then they have to accept it as it is legal currency.

The only time legal tender has to be accepted is to cover an existing debt. There is also a restriction limiting the transaction to 50 coins maximum. (Economic and Monetary Union Act 1998)

A shop can refuse legal tender for purchases since a debt does not already exist (that is why they can legally refuse to accept a 100 or 500 euro note as some places do) since no contract exists (they are basically choosing to not enter into a contract of sale with you). A restaurant on the other hand cannot if you have already eaten before paying since a debt exists (the contract has already been entered into since the product has been consumed).

daithijjj wrote: »

actually, i believe shops do have an obligation to accept any card that is advertised 'in store', you know the type........"we accept solo, switch, visa, mastercard" etc. At point of sale you can only refuse payment type if you believe a fraudulent transaction is occuring or the card is damaged in some way. Many large companies do not accept AMEX ,surprisingly.

As above a shop does not have to accept you offer to purchase an item thus can refuse to accept any card or cash. Some stores may have contractual obligations with the credit card machine/merchant account providers to accept certain cards, i don't know, but there is no statutory requirement.

daithijjj · 12-01-2009 12:44pm

axer wrote: »

The only time legal tender has to be accepted is to cover an existing debt. There is also a restriction limiting the transaction to 50 coins maximum. (Economic and Monetary Union Act 1998)

A shop can refuse legal tender for purchases since a debt does not already exist (that is why they can legally refuse to accept a 100 or 500 euro note as some places do) since no contract exists (they are basically choosing to not enter into a contract of sale with you). A restaurant on the other hand cannot if you have already eaten before paying since a debt exists (the contract has already been entered into since the product has been consumed).

As above a shop does not have to accept you offer to purchase an item thus can refuse to accept any card or cash. Some stores may have contractual obligations with the credit card machine/merchant account providers to accept certain cards, i don't know, but there is no statutory requirement.

lol, i think you are debating a more philosophical stance than a practical one..............i would love to hear from anyone that had they're cash refused for any reason other than counterfit suspicion.

axer · 12-01-2009 12:58pm

daithijjj wrote: »

lol, i think you are debating a more philosophical stance than a practical one..............i would love to hear from anyone that had they're cash refused for any reason other than counterfit suspicion.

How about im debating from a legal stance since there is no other stance that matters. The OP asked for the legal position and if you want to make stuff up then maybe you are better off posting in after hours.

People have 100 euro notes and 500 euro notes refused all the time. Especially in smaller shops.

daithijjj · 12-01-2009 1:28pm

axer wrote: »

How about im debating from a legal stance since there is no other stance that matters. The OP asked for the legal position and if you want to make stuff up then maybe you are better off posting in after hours.

People have 100 euro notes and 500 euro notes refused all the time. Especially in smaller shops.

theres no need for personal insults here, your original reply is in my email inbox before you edited your post...........you are the one going on about cash being refused which is not a question in the OP. My reply to you was not meant as an inflammatory one. You may know someone who walks around with just 100 and 500 notes and gets refused, the shopkeeper can indeed refuse them but i would imagine that is an inability to change the note rather than a refusal to accept it. I worked in england for years and the company made it clear that we were to accept scottish sterling without any argument even though many shops in the area refused to take it........allthough it was, in fact, illegal not to accept it.

axer · 12-01-2009 2:01pm

daithijjj wrote: »

theres no need for personal insults here, your original reply is in my email inbox before you edited your post...........you are the one going on about cash being refused which is not a question in the OP.

It all boils down to not having to enter into a sales contract and how something being legal tender does not matter. It is relevant to this thread.

daithijjj wrote: »

My reply to you was not meant as an inflammatory one.

You laughed at my post and said I was being philosophical while your post relies on your imagination. Your post basically offers nothing and you laugh at my post that gives the true legal standpoint.

daithijjj wrote: »

You may know someone who walks around with just 100 and 500 notes and gets refused, the shopkeeper can indeed refuse them but i would imagine that is an inability to change the note rather than a refusal to accept it.

The shopkeeper refuses the note. It does not matter why. You said:

daithijjj wrote:

i would love to hear from anyone that had they're cash refused for any reason other than counterfit suspicion.

You have just given a "reason other than counterfit suspicion" and you laugh at my post?

daithijjj wrote: »

I worked in england for years and the company made it clear that we were to accept scottish sterling without any argument even though many shops in the area refused to take it........allthough it was, in fact, illegal not to accept it.

what has this got to do with Ireland?

Also you are incorrect in that as it is the same situation in the UK whereby legal tender only has to be accepted when covering a debt. Also I believe that scottish sterling notes are not even legal tender anywhere in the UK - only coins (i'm not even sure coins are issued by scotland). and you laugh at my post...

podge3 · 12-01-2009 2:07pm

axer wrote: »

The only time legal tender has to be accepted is to cover an existing debt. There is also a restriction limiting the transaction to 50 coins maximum. (Economic and Monetary Union Act 1998)

A shop can refuse legal tender for purchases since a debt does not already exist (that is why they can legally refuse to accept a 100 or 500 euro note as some places do) since no contract exists (they are basically choosing to not enter into a contract of sale with you). A restaurant on the other hand cannot if you have already eaten before paying since a debt exists (the contract has already been entered into since the product has been consumed).

Many thanks Axer for your informative post. I bow to your greater knowledge

Looks like I'll be moving banks if the EBS don't get the finger out.

GerardKeating · 12-01-2009 2:09pm

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

Without chip and pin the shop is 100% liable for any fruadulant transaction on your card, with chip and pin you are liable. This is why the shop is not accepting it, they will be liable should your card be stolen.

The "Liability shift" only applied to card which have a Chip, for a card with no chip, the old rules still apply, which is that the issuer is liable for the fraud..

daithijjj · 12-01-2009 2:17pm

"Also I believe that scottish sterling notes are not even legal tender anywhere in the UK"

do you have any idea how dumb a statement that is?

axer · 12-01-2009 2:29pm

daithijjj wrote: »

"Also I believe that scottish sterling notes are not even legal tender anywhere in the UK"

do you have any idea how dumb a statement that is?

no, please enlighten me.

daithijjj · 12-01-2009 3:07pm

axer wrote: »

no, please enlighten me.

Scotland is part of the UK, they use various promisory notes such as bank of scotland, royal bank of scotland and clydesdale notes etc. You may think that these are not legal tender in the same way that notes issued by the bank of england are not legal tender in NI or scotland. Out in the real world, scottish and english notes are accepted in both countries. My company and companies ive worked for in the UK accept them freely........its been that way for around 160 years i believe.

axer · 12-01-2009 3:15pm

daithijjj wrote: »

Scotland is part of the UK, they use various promisory notes such as bank of scotland, royal bank of scotland and clydesdale notes etc. You may think that these are not legal tender in the same way that notes issued by the bank of england are not legal tender in NI or scotland. Out in the real world, scottish and english notes are accepted in both countries. My company and companies ive worked for in the UK accept them freely........its been that way for around 160 years i believe.

Scottish bank notes are not legal tender in Scotland in the same way that notes issued by the bank of england are not legal tender in Scotland. There are no two ways about it. NI and Scotland do not have bank notes that are legal tender. Just because they are accepted (much like credit cards and debit cards are accepted) does not make them legal tender or not not legal tender as you put it.

...and you called my statement dumb? Do you know what irony is? Are you still laughing out loud?

daithijjj · 12-01-2009 3:21pm

axer wrote: »

Scottish bank notes are not legal tender in Scotland in the same way that notes issued by the bank of england are not legal tender in Scotland. There are no two ways about it. NI and Scotland do not have bank notes that are legal tender. Just because they are accepted (much like credit cards and debit cards are accepted) does not make them legal tender or not not legal tender as you put it.

...and you called my statement dumb? Do you know what irony is? Are you still laughing out loud?

you do appear to be a sensitive soul, you having a bad day or something?

axer · 12-01-2009 3:25pm

daithijjj wrote: »

you do appear to be a sensitive soul, you having a bad day or something?

Nope, You laughed at a post and called another statement dumb even though both were 100% accurate whilst yours have all been incorrect. I just don't like ignorance.

axer · 12-01-2009 3:35pm

podge3 wrote: »

Many thanks Axer for your informative post. I bow to your greater knowledge

Looks like I'll be moving banks if the EBS don't get the finger out.

No problem.

daithijjj · 12-01-2009 3:50pm

axer wrote: »

Nope, You laughed at a post and called another statement dumb even though both were 100% accurate whilst yours have all been incorrect. I just don't like ignorance.

ah i see, you have interpreted that "lol" as me laughing at you rather than with you in a general sense of the thread. I apologise to you if that was how you did see it, at no point in this thread have i laughed at your contribution towards the OP. You may think this apology is an addmission of me being 100% wrong and ignorant

, which it most certainly is not.
However, i dont have anything else to add, i just felt like i would extend an olive branch to you and wish you a good day, the final word is now yours should you wish to take it.

axer · 12-01-2009 3:56pm

daithijjj wrote: »

ah i see, you have interpreted that "lol" as me laughing at you rather than with you in a general sense of the thread. I apologise to you if that was how you did see it, at no point in this thread have i laughed at your contribution towards the OP. You may think this apology is an addmission of me being 100% wrong and ignorant , which it most certainly is not.
However, i dont have anything else to add, i just felt like i would extend an olive branch to you and wish you a good day, the final word is now yours should you wish to take it.

whatever

Fingleberries · 16-04-2009 12:22pm

Just to get a little closer to the original topic....

The EBS Web Site is a bit clearer, in admitting that they don't do Chip and Pin, but it looks like they haven't updated the page since 2007 anyway (when Chip and Pin came in here) to explain what they are planning to do about it. [Link]

We are currently reviewing our options to introduce a Chip & Pin Laser card. Unfortunately, as we are dependent on other organisations to do this, we are not in a position at this time to give an indication of when this might be introduced.

Since the launch of CHIP & PIN in March 2007, retailers are obliged to continue to accept both magnetic stripe and CHIP enabled cards. Attached is a letter from the Irish Payments Service Organisation which clearly outlines the guidelines for retailers and consumers in relation to the acceptance of both CHIP & PIN and Magnetic Stripe based Laser/debit cards.

We are currently assessing our options in relation to a move to CHIP & PIN for our members with Laser cards, and when our position changes we will certainly be in touch with all our members to update on any developments in this area.

This is ridiculous, as my wife is constantly asked for ID or refused payment when using her Laser card in many establishments, and the number of places is increasing.

Does anyone know anything about this possibly changing, or who in EBS we should direct our dissatisfaction towards? Thanks

congo_90 · 19-04-2009 1:02am

axer wrote: »

The only time legal tender has to be accepted is to cover an existing debt. There is also a restriction limiting the transaction to 50 coins maximum. (Economic and Monetary Union Act 1998)

A shop can refuse legal tender for purchases since a debt does not already exist (that is why they can legally refuse to accept a 100 or 500 euro note as some places do) since no contract exists (they are basically choosing to not enter into a contract of sale with you). A restaurant on the other hand cannot if you have already eaten before paying since a debt exists (the contract has already been entered into since the product has been consumed).

As above a shop does not have to accept you offer to purchase an item thus can refuse to accept any card or cash. Some stores may have contractual obligations with the credit card machine/merchant account providers to accept certain cards, i don't know, but there is no statutory requirement.

thats an interesting law. glad it's in. I shall use if freely

On the note of cards. If you display the "we accept.." or any other sticker designed to show you accept these cards you are obliged to accept them for a transaction (which to not cause problems) you agree to enter with the customer.
I won't mention who or what specifically, but I work for one of the banks in that dept. A merchant does NOT have to accept any cards other than those shown. Example of the stickers

axer · 19-04-2009 10:56am

congo_90 wrote: »

I won't mention who or what specifically, but I work for one of the banks in that dept. A merchant does NOT have to accept any cards other than those shown. Example of the stickers

I presume you mean that is the rule imposed by the credit card processing provider but by law none of the cards have to be accepted.

GerardKeating · 19-04-2009 11:59am

congo_90 wrote: »

On the note of cards. If you display the "we accept.." or any other sticker designed to show you accept these cards you are obliged to accept them for a transaction (which to not cause problems) you agree to enter with the customer.

Actually NO.

A merchant has absolute discression to reject any card (even Visa/Mastercard) if they want.

Since the liability for any fraud is with them, they cannot be force to accept any such risk, so if they do not like the card, they can refuse.

Shops refusing EBS laser card

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