If you're ever unsure about a rule during a competitive round...

ShriekingSheet

Apologies for starting a new thread for this but it's something that I come accross time and again. A little piece of advice that a lot of golfers aren't aware of and can be a great way to get out of sticky situations, whether it's an open competition, or your Captain's Prize.

It's detailed in the Rules of Golf (20-7c), though the wording is quite convoluted.

If you are unsure of a rule, or how to proceed in any given scenario on the course you can play a second ball, finishing out the hole with both balls, and find out the rule after your round. Hopefully, you've got the rule right with one of your balls. The score you had with this ball goes on your card.

The only other option is to guess the rule and play one ball. If you guess wrong and find out the rule later, you could be disqualified or will at least receive a penalty you could have avoided.

Examples:
My foot is on a path when I address the ball. Do I have a free drop or not?
Play your ball as it lies, with your foot on the path and also drop another ball as if you have relief. Finish with both balls.
It's likely you had relief. If you'd have guessed wrong you may have unecessarily played the ball awkwardly with your foot on the path.

My ball struck overhead powerlines...
You can probably drop and play again according to local rules. You may have just taken it as bad luck and walked up and hit from where the ball lay.

An OOB stake is lying down, I'm not sure if I'm in or out of bounds...
Play it as it lies but also go back and play a ball as if the first had have been out of bounds.


After your round you can ring the GUI if your club officials can't decide or aren't on hand. The GUI deal with these calls all the time and can even consult the R&A - it doesn't have to be the Irish Open - they will make sure they give you a good ruling for any comp and it usually only takes a few mins as there's pretty much nothing they haven't heard before.

You never know when it might come in handy.

Mister Sifter

Thanks Sheet, very interesting post! I didn't actually know you could do that. Also didn't know about calling the GUI for a ruling. When i was reading your post, one of my first thoughts was 'but there's often nobody there to ask when i get back in'.

Is there a specific number that you ring and is there someone there to take calls 7 days?

HuntingDrog

thats great SS. where did u get word of this?

i can just imagine the looks on my playing partners face next time i bring this up that i want to play 2 balls..............."ya jumped up young pup........."

ShriekingSheet

Graeme1982 wrote: »

Thanks Sheet, very interesting post! I didn't actually know you could do that. Also didn't know about calling the GUI for a ruling. When i was reading your post, one of my first thoughts was 'but there's often nobody there to ask when i get back in'.
Is there a specific number that you ring and is there someone there to take calls 7 days?

That's why I posted - if a guy like you off a 5 h'cap playing Interclub Golf, Junior Scratch Cups etc doesn't know it.....

I'm not quite sure as it's never happened me but last time it happened in a comp I was playing in they called the R&A. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a 7-day number. If it was me I'd call 11850 and get GUI Leinster, GUI Ireland and the R&A in Scotland numbers and just try them all. But you probably won't even need to call given that most clubs have a rule book in the bar or office which can most likely solve your query.

HuntingDrog wrote: »

thats great SS. where did u get word of this?

I asked for a ruling in a GUI competition years ago and the official himself wasn't sure so he said play two balls and I'll find out for you by the end of the round.

It's also advised in the Rules of Golf - rule 20-7c.

Hobart

Scenario:

You tee off, and think that your ball have gone OOB. You play a provo, which hits the centre of the fairway. Upon investigation, your first ball is actually in bounds, but unplayable. You declare your first ball unplayable. How do you proceed?

ShriekingSheet

Hobart wrote: »

Scenario:

You tee off, and think that your ball have gone OOB. You play a provo, which hits the centre of the fairway. Upon investigation, your first ball is actually in bounds, but unplayable. You declare your first ball unplayable. How do you proceed?

As soon as you find the initial ball the provo is disregarded. If you wish to then declare the first ball unplayable and play 3 from the tee you can do so but you can't use the provisional that's in the fairway.

If you don't want to go back you could either drop two club lengths from where the ball lies or go back on the line between the ball and the flag (usually useless).

But in the context of this thread... if you weren't sure what to do...
You could go back and play 3 off the tee, as well as finishing out with the provo you played. Say you make a 6 with the provo and a 7 with the ball you went back to hit, having checked the rule when you got in you would mark down a 7.

Hobart

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

As soon as you find the initial ball the provo is disregarded. If you wish to then declare the first ball unplayable and play 3 from the tee you can do so but you can't use the provisional that's in the fairway.

If you don't want to go back you could either drop two club lengths from where the ball lies or go back on the line between the ball and the flag (usually useless).

Thanks,

do you have a reference for this? i.e. what rule is it covered under?

/Edit...are you sure about the 2 club lengths part? /Edit again...read the last line properly....NM.

ShriekingSheet

Hobart wrote: »

Thanks,

do you have a reference for this? i.e. what rule is it covered under?

/Edit...are you sure about the 2 club lengths part? /Edit again...read the last line properly....NM.

Ball unplayable rule is as follows...

"If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must under penalty of
one stroke:
a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original
ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point
directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is
dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may
be dropped; or
c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay,
but not nearer the hole"

And Rule 27 states...
"If the original ball is found in bounds, you must continue
play of the hole with it, and must stop play with the provisional ball."

I know that doesn't seem like substantial backing for my point but as the introduction to the rules of golf explains, the word "must" is very carefully used in the rules. It means must.

I can't remember where else (in the rule book I think) but I got an elaborated explanation of why the rule is so. You can't hit a provo incase a ball is unplayable - only incase it's lost or OOB.

Mister Sifter

Let me see if i'm reading this right...

I tee off and it looks to have went OOB. I hit a provo and it goes onto the fairway. I walk down and find my first ball sitting just out of bounds.

Going by what is said here... the ball in the fairway cannot be played and i must return to the tee again and hit 3 off the tee (again).

Am i correct?

PhilipMarlowe

No, the provo would become the ball in play if the first was OUT of bounds...
Only if the first was IN play would the provo become meaningless... we've had this on here several times before. Sheet is talking about the first being IN Bounds, but UN-Playable.... the unplayable part is really your own decision whereas the in bounds or not is a question of fact.
Once the original is found IN Bounds, you have to deal with it by either playing it as it lies or proceeding under the unplayable rule but whatever you decide to do, once it is found IN Bounds, the provisional is dead.

Hobart

Graeme1982 wrote: »

Let me see if i'm reading this right...

I tee off and it looks to have went OOB. I hit a provo and it goes onto the fairway. I walk down and find my first ball sitting just out of bounds.

Going by what is said here... the ball in the fairway cannot be played and i must return to the tee again and hit 3 off the tee (again).

Am i correct?

No, you can play a provo(and use it) for a ball that is OOB. What SS (correctly) is saying is that you cannot play a provo if you think the ball you have played is unplayable. And it makes sense, I guess, as it stops you having a "choice" of ball, which is something you cannot do in golf.

Mister Sifter

Cheers Licksy and Hobart... i was just starting to wonder how many times i'd broken the rules... confusion over though!

kingshankly

but surley if your ball is unplayable you can kick it out witout recieving a penalty;)

1stuey1

haha ok let me see if i get this... i play a ball.... i think its oob... i check and it is..i can go back to the tee box and hit off from 3?

2. i hit a ball and im not sure....i hit another which is perfect...i go down and see my ball is IN bounds but looks un-playable.. can i not use my perfect shot? or do i just drop out?

sorry haha

Trampas

Hobart wrote: »

Scenario:

You tee off, and think that your ball have gone OOB. You play a provo, which hits the centre of the fairway. Upon investigation, your first ball is actually in bounds, but unplayable. You declare your first ball unplayable. How do you proceed?

This happened to Big Phil one day. Hit a tee shot miles off line and hit a provo which he hit out of the screws and middle of the fairway. Phil can be heard telling them not to look for the ball as he didn't want it found.

Par72

A lot of people don't know this rule. I employed it in a competition last year and I had a battle convincing my playing partners that it was acceptable. It can be very useful and a good way not to hold up play.

Hulkamaniac

I'm not 100% on this guys, you're saying there's a specific rule in golf which accounts for the fact that you're unsure about a ruling? I think the example you used with the ref in your match suggesting you play a second ball applies to that scenario only - and might even be a "local" rule.

But the golf rulebook is the same for us as it is for the pro's, and they always wait for a ruling - there are also instances were a player can be given direction on the rules from the match referee which subsequently turn out to be wrong and in turn, the player is penalised (I wish I could think of an example!).

Do you have a reference for this rule (from the rules of golf or the decisions on the rules of golf?)

What if you can't agree with your playing partner on a rule, i.e. he says something about relief from a bunker that you are not sure of, can you decide to play two balls and check later? I think this would not be valid as it could contribute to slow play too.

ShriekingSheet

Hulkamaniac wrote: »

I'm not 100% on this guys, you're saying there's a specific rule in golf which accounts for the fact that you're unsure about a ruling?
Do you have a reference for this rule (from the rules of golf or the decisions on the rules of golf?)

Man, I've repeatedly said that it's rule 20-7c in the Rules of Golf. So yes that is what I'm saying. Here is a quote from the rule...

"If a competitor becomes aware that he has played from a wrong place and
believes that he may have committed a serious breach, he must, before
making a stroke on the next teeing ground, play out the hole with a second
ball played in accordance with the Rules. If the hole being played is the last
hole of the round, he must declare, before leaving the putting green, that he
will play out the hole with a second ball played in accordance with the
Rules.
If the competitor has played a second ball, he must report the facts to the
Committee before returning his score card; if he fails to do so,
he is disqualified.The Committee must determine whether the competitor
has committed a serious breach of the applicable Rule. If he has, the score
with the second ball counts and the competitor must add two penalty
strokes to his score with that ball. If the competitor has committed a serious
breach and has failed to correct it as outlined above, he is disqualified.
Note 1: A competitor is deemed to have committed a serious breach of
the applicable Rule if the Committee considers he has gained a significant
advantage as a result of playing from a wrong place.
Note 2: If a competitor plays a second ball under Rule 20-7c and it is
ruled not to count, strokes made with that ball and penalty strokes incurred
solely by playing that ball are disregarded. If the second ball is ruled to
count, the stroke made from the wrong place and any strokes subsequently
taken with the original ball including penalty strokes incurred solely by
playing that ball are disregarded.Note 3: If a player incurs a penalty for making a stroke from a wrong
place, there is no additional penalty for substituting a ball when not
permitted."

Hulkamaniac wrote: »

I think the example you used with the ref in your match suggesting you play a second ball applies to that scenario only - and might even be a "local" rule. .

The rules do not change from scenario to scenario. The GUI guy advised me of this solution to the problem (as I'm advising you guys).

Hulkamaniac wrote: »

What if you can't agree with your playing partner on a rule, i.e. he says something about relief from a bunker that you are not sure of, can you decide to play two balls and check later? I think this would not be valid as it could contribute to slow play too.

It's up to you, if you are unsure of a rule and want to take your friend's advice or not. "If you believe you may have committed a serious breach" you can play out two balls.

Slow play is largely subjective but the if you were to ask me to risk being disqualified from any competition (big or small) rather than hold up the guys behind for a couple of minutes I'd completely disagree. You could call them through or just ensure you played quickly and made up the ground on the next few shots.



This is a very logical rule where the R&A have shown the good sense to allow for two things: 1 - very, very few competitions have rules officials available and 2 - very, very few golfers are sure of all the rules. In 20-7c they've made a provision to allow players who are trying their best to play within the rules to reduce the risk of a DQ or unecessary penalty.

Hulkamaniac

Thanks, I had mailed the GUI to find out too, they pretty much said the same thing..sorry about the whole "doubting Thomas" thing

One other thing though
"The Committee must determine whether the competitor
has committed a serious breach of the applicable Rule. If he has, the score
with the second ball counts and the competitor must add two penalty
strokes to his score with that ball."

As I understand the above, if you take a second ball because you're unsure about the rule, and your first ball turns out to be wrong, you get a two stroke penalty anyway, so not knowing that your first ball was in breach of the rules adds two strokes!!! Thats a bit harsh!

ShriekingSheet

Trampas wrote: »

This happened to Big Phil one day. Hit a tee shot miles off line and hit a provo which he hit out of the screws and middle of the fairway. Phil can be heard telling them not to look for the ball as he didn't want it found.

Yeah he's completely within the rules there. Slightly underhanded maybe. It's like the foot-on-path thing. Where a player has a crap lie and his foot isn't actually on a path (immovable obstruction) but if he reaches back while addressing the ball he can get his foot on it. Technically, this means he can get a free drop within the rules.
I think Sandy Lyle (or someone like that) addressed a ball as if to hit it back toward the teebox just so his feet would be on a path and got a free drop. It works on the basis that the rules can't tell you where to aim your shot.

I completely disagree with the path thing. Phil's less so as he's not actually getting away without penalty.

The point of the thread was to show how when you know the rules you can make them work for you and the more competitive a level of golf you play, you can be sure an opponent who knows the rules will make them work for him and against you. There's nothing unsporting or sly about it. It's the game we play.

ShriekingSheet

Hulkamaniac wrote: »

Thanks, I had mailed the GUI to find out too, they pretty much said the same thing..sorry about the whole "doubting Thomas" thing

One other thing though
"The Committee must determine whether the competitor
has committed a serious breach of the applicable Rule. If he has, the score
with the second ball counts and the competitor must add two penalty
strokes to his score with that ball."

As I understand the above, if you take a second ball because you're unsure about the rule, and your first ball turns out to be wrong, you get a two stroke penalty anyway, so not knowing that your first ball was in breach of the rules adds two strokes!!! Thats a bit harsh!

My understanding is that is only if you've committed a serious breach (defined in Note 1 as gaining advantage from playing from the wrong place). If you've dropped the second ball in the correct place you haven't committed a serious breach. Note 2 also states that penalty strokes as a result of playing the initial ball from the wrong place are disregarded when the second ball is deemed to count.

Can you post your question and the GUI's reply for us?

FlutterinBantam

Shrieking Sheet is correct on everything he says here.

The rules of golf ,if you think about it, have to cover every situation that might happen eg a grey squirrel hopping out of a tree and dumping on your ball,sorry to bring that into it but just to emphasise the point.

Nobody but nobody has a complete handle of everythingbut take it from me SS knows what he is talking about.

Thats about it Ted.

kingshankly

i wouldnt ring the gui if i had a rule concern think i would pm the sheet:rolleyes:

stockdam

A few small points about playing a provisional ball.

You must clearly state to your opponent or playing partner that it is provisional. They must hear you and acknowledge you....make sure they acknowledge you otherwise you may up arguing over it especially in matchplay.

You must do so before hitting the provisional otherwise it is then in play and even if you find your first ball then you cannot now use it.

If you are playing a provisional from the tee-box then you should wait until your partners or opponents have played. In stroke play this is usually not important except if you have agreed to play out of turn and then you may be disqualified if it is deemed that somebody gained an advantage (for instance you cannot agree to play out of turn in order to "test" the wind for somebody else).......this is the case for normal play - you shouldn't agree to play out of turn except if it speeds up play and certainly not to gain any advantage.

You can't play a provisional after you have started to walk to look for the original ball (that includes leaving the tee-box I guess).

If you hit your provisional from nearer the hole than where the original ball is likely to be then the provisional is now in play (that can be a bit hard to prove at times but be careful).

If you find the original ball then this one is now in play and the provisional cannot be used. If the original is unplayable then you cannot resort to the provisional.

Trampas

Garcia tried it in the Ryder Cup against Kim in the singles.

Remember rules are they to help you also with Garcia and Lyle example.

Harrington did it one day where he ended up dropping on the green or edge of green after finding water.

Stake trees is an area where you can use the rules in your favour.

In trouble and your lie terrible but you can hit the tree if you hit driver but not if you take a wedge which you would normally take. Use the driver and get relief.

FlutterinBantam

kingshankly wrote: »

i wouldnt ring the gui if i had a rule concern think i would pm the sheet:rolleyes:

Heh heh ahuumph steady up now.:D

"hello hello I'm on the 5th, Sheet and this......"

No, seems to know what he is talking about and some people are giving him a bit of gyp ok?

Mister Sifter

kingshankly wrote: »

i wouldnt ring the gui if i had a rule concern think i would pm the sheet:rolleyes:

There's gratitude for you eh!

ShriekingSheet

Trampas wrote: »

In trouble and your lie terrible but you can hit the tree if you hit driver but not if you take a wedge which you would normally take. Use the driver and get relief.

Yeah it's all within the rules but like, I'd imagine there'd be mixed opinions on doing something like this, even if it's not illegal.

It's funny and totally up to the person. Like me, I wouldn't take out a driver and swing in order to get a drop, when I was actually going to us a wedge. Nor would I make an awkward stance to reach a path. But I would use a driver to measure two club lengths for a drop and like Phil, I wouldn't look for a ball that was completely f*cked when I had a good provo in play.

None of that above is against the rules but I'd say different people would do some things and not others.

DonkeyPokerTour

Although I dont use one, whats the rule on using a broomhandle or belly putter to measure two club lengths? legal & frouned upon or illegal?

Also What if I'm buried under a tree and moving the ball out two club lengths in any direction does not give relief? (say if the tree has branches all the way to the ground)

ShriekingSheet

DonkeyPokerTour wrote: »

Although I dont use one, whats the rule on using a broomhandle or belly putter to measure two club lengths? legal & frouned upon or illegal?

Also What if I'm buried under a tree and moving the ball out two club lengths in any direction does not give relief? (say if the tree has branches all the way to the ground)

I seem to recall Woosie using the broom handle to measure club lengths. I haven't checked the rules (and I'm not going to cos I don't use one) but I'd imagine it's allowed.

If you declare your ball unplayable you can 1) take where the ball lies and the flag and go back on that line as far as you like and drop. 2) Go back to where you last hit from and drop (or tee it up again if it was a tee-shot). 3) if two club lengths doesn't get you out you can drop 2 lengths away, then measure another 2 and drop again but this will obviously cost 2 penalty strokes.

Miley Byrne

Not sure about the first query Donkey but with the second you can take the ball back as far as you want as long as you keep the tree directly between you and the pin.

kingshankly

Graeme1982 wrote: »

There's gratitude for you eh!

I wasn't being smart his knowledge of the game in rules and the practical side is excellent

PhilipMarlowe

I sometimes see this amongst the guys I play with.... their ball is in bushes and they want to declare it unplayable.... so many of them think that you can bring the ball to the edge of the bushes/gorse and then measure out for your drop....
The rule allows two clublengths from where the ball was.... if this doesn't get you to where you'd like then tough, proceed under another option as advised above.

By the way, you can fairly take your stance in any direction.... "It is a matter for the player to decide on the stroke and direction of play he wishes to adopt and he is entitled to fairly take his stance for that stroke and direction of play. "

ShriekingSheet

Licksy wrote: »

By the way, you can fairly take your stance in any direction.... "It is a matter for the player to decide on the stroke and direction of play he wishes to adopt and he is entitled to fairly take his stance for that stroke and direction of play. "

Absolutely no question that it's in the rules to do so.

Trampas

I think this is a rule but open to correction

Is when you are in/beside bush/tree etc force there way and think they can hold the branches/twigs etc back with legs/body or whatever they can so they can hit the ball our of trouble.

I think you are allow get into position without moving branches etc out of the way. Penalty if you do the above.

Mister Sifter

kingshankly wrote: »

I wasn't being smart his knowledge of the game in rules and the practical side is excellent

Cool, i was thrown by the smiley!

soundsham

good sound advice;)

Hulkamaniac

Okay, here's what I asked them:
Hello, I was hoping you could help me out with a ruling? I
would like to know the scenario in a match where you and your playing
partners are unsure on a ruling - is it possible to play two balls, one
for each scenario and then record the correct score back at the
clubhouse when you get the correct ruling?
here's what they said:
Yes that would be the most sensible approach to take if you are unsure of a particular rule until you receive clarification from a committee member. Rules of Golf 20-7 – page 91 of current edition. Do you have a copy of the rule book for information as they can be obtained from your club secretary or I can post you one.
Then I asked:
Thanks for the prompt reply, I have a copy of the latest edition but I am slightly confused by rule 20-7, this is referring to playing a 2nd ball after you've realised you have made an error with your first ball, and it means a two stoke penalty if indeed your first ball was in breach of the rules.

I am talking about an on course dispute about the rules, so before I break a rule I can decide to play two balls, one for each scenario, once I find out which ball is in line with the rules - I record that ball's score without penalty - is this allowable?
Then they Said:

Apologies if it was match play then Rule 2-5 refers. Basically you can’t play two balls in match play, your opponent would need to make a claim before you reach the next tee or the dispute would need to be clarified by a member of committee.

FlutterinBantam

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

I seem to recall Woosie using the broom handle to measure club lengths. I haven't checked the rules (and I'm not going to cos I don't use one) but I'd imagine it's allowed.

If you declare your ball unplayable you can 1) take where the ball lies and the flag and go back on that line as far as you like and drop. 2) Go back to where you last hit from and drop (or tee it up again if it was a tee-shot). 3) if two club lengths doesn't get you out you can drop 2 lengths away, then measure another 2 and drop again but this will obviously cost 2 penalty strokes.

New one on me!!

Hulkamaniac

I think it is allowed
http://golf.about.com/cs/rulesofgolf/a/rulefaq_lengths.htm
Also, I heard before you need to take the head cover off your driver/woods before you measure out club lengths.

Hulkamaniac

Licksy wrote: »

I sometimes see this amongst the guys I play with.... their ball is in bushes and they want to declare it unplayable.... so many of them think that you can bring the ball to the edge of the bushes/gorse and then measure out for your drop....
The rule allows two clublengths from where the ball was.... if this doesn't get you to where you'd like then tough, proceed under another option as advised above.

By the way, you can fairly take your stance in any direction.... "It is a matter for the player to decide on the stroke and direction of play he wishes to adopt and he is entitled to fairly take his stance for that stroke and direction of play. "

Dropping two club lengths is not the only option available if you are in gorse bushes!
In the bushes or anywhere else on the course - except water hazards! A player can decide their ball is unplayable at a penalty of one stroke...
After taking a 1-stroke penalty, the three options for proceeding are to return to the spot of the previous stroke and play again; or drop within two club lengths, not nearer the hole; or drop behind the spot, going back as far as you want, keeping the original spot between the hole and the spot where the ball is dropped.

PhilipMarlowe

That's why I said if the two clublengths doesn't get you enough out of the trouble you can "proceed under another option as advised above".... the other options were clearly outlined in the few posts above mine so no need to repeat them.
My point was just that sometimes people who are not certain of the rules think that they have a divine right to get their ball completely out of trouble when they are taking a drop. You will see the same thing happen with staked tress for example. Sometimes your nearest point of relief from a staked tree could mean dropping into a gorse bush but lots of people will assume that they are entitled to drop completely free from all trouble where they can have a clear swing and shot to the green. Their understanding of "relief" is the issue.

ShriekingSheet

Licksy wrote: »

Their understanding of "relief" is the issue.

+1 to this.

Very common and a pretty big one to get wrong.