DL Questions

Killme00

Do we have a thread in Fitness where anyone can ask a question, no matter how dumb or simple it might be? It might be an idea to have an ask anything thread.

After a good warm-up and stretch yesterday, i deadlifted. I was careful of my form (i will post it up for critique if/when i record it).

Bar * 6 * 1
60kg * 6 * 2
80kg * 6 * 2
90kg * 6 * 1
100kg * 6 * 1
110kg * 6 * 1
120kg * 6 * 1
130kg * 3 * 1
140kg * fail
130kg * 3 * 2
130kg * fail

I was too ballsed for anything else. All i could do why stretch and warmdown. It was a different kind of tiredness than i get from any other sort of exercise. Squatting gives me a wonderful feeling in my legs but after this i couldn't feel where i was tired, i just knew i was fecked.

And now the stupid questions.
1) What (if any) sort of tempo should be used during sets?
2) How much break should (generally) be taken between sets? Up to 100kg i kept my rest period quite short but after that it may have been nearly three minutes between sets.
3) Where should i be feeling it today? I have a tightness in my lower back but not painful in any way.
4) What supplementary lifts can be done to help my DL?

I should say that the reason i am DL'ing is to increase my overall strength (i am also Squatting but thats for a personal goal of 2*BW).

rubadub

Seems like a lot of reps to me.

Killme00 wrote: »

4) What supplementary lifts can be done to help my DL?

What do you think is your sticking point? I used to have to use lifting straps, grip strength was not great. Now I do lots of chinups, and thick bar chinups, towel & rope pullups and use a gripper. This has helped my grip hugely and it is no longer an issue, I never use straps now.

Killme00

rubadub wrote: »

Seems like a lot of reps to me.


What do you think is your sticking point? I used to have to use lifting straps, grip strength was not great. Now I do lots of chinups, and thick bar chinups, towel & rope pullups and use a gripper. This has helped my grip hugely and it is no longer an issue, I never use straps now.

Thanks for that. Grip isnt an issue for me, ive spent years fighting for grips in Martial Arts. The two failure reps were not down to grip or even lockout but my form putting the bar back down. I think my back may have rounded because i was so tired, i'll know better next time.

I dont really know what the sticking point was or if there was one, i was just really tired. I know it was alot of reps but i just wanted to see what i could do with good form. I will be dropping the reps next time, perhaps warmup with 50 and then start at between 90 and 100kg. How many sets in general would you recommend per session or do you judge it on feel.

brianthebard

If my goal was 140/150 for a 1rm I would've done it like this;

60x6, 80x6, 100x5, 120x4, 130x2, 140x1, 150x1, etc. That would be my personal preference. Basically by the 140 effort you had knackered yourself from the sounds of things, you'd done...51 reps??? What are you doing 51 reps for on the deadlift, whether you are going for repetitive effort or single max? Way too much imo, for anything bar a sheiko type programme.

Killme00

brianthebard wrote: »

If my goal was 140/150 for a 1rm I would've done it like this;

60x6, 80x6, 100x5, 120x4, 130x2, 140x1, 150x1, etc. That would be my personal preference. Basically by the 140 effort you had knackered yourself from the sounds of things, you'd done...51 reps??? What are you doing 51 reps for on the deadlift, whether you are going for repetitive effort or single max? Way too much imo, for anything bar a sheiko type programme.

Thanks for that.

I wasnt doing it as part of a programme. I just wanted to get the form right and lift and see where it took me. Your way sounds better..lol
I am going to start a programme form this week, i just havent decided which yet.

feeling it now, sitting on this poxy chair in work.

Roper

45 reps before attempting a max single.

You need to ask the following and work from there:
What is my 1rm
What am I looking for from lifting? Ie. strength, sports performance etc.
What will be the best type of training (not just reps/sets but frequency etc.) to get me to that goal

When you can answer those 3 you'll be a long way towards sorting out a programme.

kevpants

Killme00 wrote: »

And now the stupid questions.
1) What (if any) sort of tempo should be used during sets?

Whatever you fel comfortable with. Some barely tap the weight off the floor and back up again others let it rest for a second or two.

Killme00 wrote: »

2) How much break should (generally) be taken between sets? Up to 100kg i kept my rest period quite short but after that it may have been nearly three minutes between sets.

You're deadlifting to increase strength then take plenty of rest between sets. 3 mins isn't enough on the heavy sets. Take at least 5 mins.

Killme00 wrote: »

3) Where should i be feeling it today? I have a tightness in my lower back but not painful in any way.

In your soul.

Killme00 wrote: »

4) What supplementary lifts can be done to help my DL?

Good mornings would be my fave.

What kind of deadlift program you thinking of taking on? What you did there was pretty brutal. You couldn't keep that up more thana couple of weeks.

Killme00

Roper wrote: »

45 reps before attempting a max single.

I got carried away i know, but it was fun. I guess i am still finding out if i'm still capable.

Roper wrote: »

What is my 1rm

I'll find out this week

Roper wrote: »

What am I looking for from lifting? Ie. strength, sports performance etc.

Both Strength and Sports performance...strong as an ox, nimble as a fox...kinda like Bravestar but better. I think any strength gains would assist me in pretty much everything i do and make the things i dont do easier. Martial Arts in general is a priority for me but learning BJJ in particular.

I am a heavy, heavy guy. I will never be less than 100kgs and to be honest i dont think i would want to be, so the extra power i gain from things like this can only be an advantage.

Do you think me DL'ing will get in the way of my training?

Roper wrote: »

What will be the best type of training (not just reps/sets but frequency etc.) to get me to that goal

Researching and asking questions....:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

Thanks Barry

Killme00

kevpants wrote: »

In your soul.

So true

kevpants wrote: »

Good mornings would be my fave.

Thanks,

kevpants wrote: »

What kind of deadlift program you thinking of taking on? What you did there was pretty brutal. You couldn't keep that up more thana couple of weeks.

I am reading lots and still learning about the DL to be honest. It was a once off, once i find a structured programme to meet my needs, i will stick to it.

Roper

Killme00 wrote: »

I got carried away i know, but it was fun. I guess i am still finding out if i'm still capable.

Deadlifting is a lot fo things to me but fun is not one of the words I'd use!

I'll find out this week

Based on your numbers above I'd say 150.

Both Strength and Sports performance.

They're the same thing in our world.

I am a heavy, heavy guy. I will never be less than 100kgs

Sh1t.

Do you think me DL'ing will get in the way of my training?

Only if you keep doing it the way you did it yesterday

To give you a comparison, The Nuisance is deadlifting since August and the only time he can is pre-training, so he's been doing 3 sets of 5, with 80% of his max on the last set (which we've never done but calculated). Knowing your max is going to be really important to give you an idea of your best training weight which allows you to work hard but not be crippled physically and emotionally with doms and CNS fatigue when you're learning something new the next day.

oq4v3ht0u76kf2

Roper wrote: »

Killme00 wrote: »

(I am a heavy, heavy guy.) I will never be less than 100kgs (and to be honest i dont think i would want to be)

Sh1t.

(I expanded Roper's quote to include the parts in brackets from Killme00's post.)

Roper, I'm a fairly heavy guy as well and I've done a good bit of research into this with my own GP (who's a fairly avid, but still amateur, fitness enthusiast). From what we've read and concluded it would be EXTREMELY tough for me to get below ~95kg and maintain it. I'd need to have extremely low BF and shed a lot of muscle as well as all the fat. (I'm 5'11, 6' on a good day.)

It's not an excuse for the extra weight I'm carrying around now, that's due to bad diet and laziness. But, the fact remains that there are a lot of guys out there who genuinely have thick wrists, foreams, calves, ankles even when they are very lean and just seem to weigh 10 - 15% more than the average Joe. Again, I could be completely wrong and I'm not using it as an excuse for anything - and Killme00 did say he wouldn't want to be sub 100kg - but this is the conclusion I've come to and I've yet to find anything or anyone with compelling evidence to change my mind.

Roper

Greta Salty Apparel wrote: »

@Roper, just about your **** comment re: Killme00 never going below a 100kg. I'm a fairly heavy guy as well and I've done a good bit of research into this with my own GP (who's a fairly avid, but still amateur, fitness enthusiast). From what we've read and concluded it would be EXTREMELY tough for me to get below ~95kg and maintain it. I'd need to be have extremely low BF and shed a lot of muscle as well as all the fat. (I'm 5'11, 6' on a good day.)

It's not an excuse for the extra weight I'm carrying around now, that's due to bad diet and laziness. But, the fact remains that there are a lot of guys out there who genuinely have thick wrists, foreams, calves, ankles even when they are very lean and just seem to weigh 10 - 15% more than the average Joe.

Sorry should be pointed out that I know Killme00 and the reason I'm saying sh1t isn't because I think he should be 80kgs, it's because he squashes me when we wrestle. I'd really love it if he could be 80kgs or so cos my life would be easier! He is a naturally big dude like yourself or any number of people.

The comment above is an add on to a conversation we had last Tuesday.

oq4v3ht0u76kf2

Ah sound, sorry, didn't know it was about a conversation you'd had previously. It's also just something close to my heart 'cos I've spent so long looking into it - didn't mean to come across too defensively mate. (And you quoted me before I edited my post to include your quote and the final sentence so now I look like a double plank! Fecking quotes. )

Killme00

Roper wrote: »

To give you a comparison, The Nuisance is deadlifting since August and the only time he can is pre-training, so he's been doing 3 sets of 5, with 80% of his max on the last set (which we've never done but calculated). Knowing your max is going to be really important to give you an idea of your best training weight which allows you to work hard but not be crippled physically and emotionally with doms and CNS fatigue when you're learning something new the next day.

Edit to add: how often hould he lift his 1rm to reassess?

Hmm, do you think that DL'ing and Squatting at 80% of 1rm before alternate training sessions would be of benefit? That would be three sets of six right.

I would also like to do so extra gym work on a non MA training day so perhaps Squatting and DL'ing at 50-60% (volume?) on a training day and 80% on a non training day(to failure or not to failure?)?

Update on the DOMs. Just the tightness in the back but that loossened out at training last night (good rolling session), however my brain refused to work when we went through some techniques. So, live and learn.
:pac:

Killme00

Greta Salty Apparel wrote: »

(I expanded Roper's quote to include the parts in brackets from Killme00's post.)

Roper, I'm a fairly heavy guy as well and I've done a good bit of research into this with my own GP (who's a fairly avid, but still amateur, fitness enthusiast). From what we've read and concluded it would be EXTREMELY tough for me to get below ~95kg and maintain it. I'd need to have extremely low BF and shed a lot of muscle as well as all the fat. (I'm 5'11, 6' on a good day.)

It's not an excuse for the extra weight I'm carrying around now, that's due to bad diet and laziness. But, the fact remains that there are a lot of guys out there who genuinely have thick wrists, foreams, calves, ankles even when they are very lean and just seem to weigh 10 - 15% more than the average Joe. Again, I could be completely wrong and I'm not using it as an excuse for anything - and Killme00 did say he wouldn't want to be sub 100kg - but this is the conclusion I've come to and I've yet to find anything or anyone with compelling evidence to change my mind.

Dont worry about it, these 70 - 80ish kilo guys will never understand :pac::pac::pac:

Roper

Killme00 wrote: »

Edit to add: how often hould he lift his 1rm to reassess?

You mean The Nuisance? He did a 3rm before Christmas which gives all the info I need. He's still only 17 so getting him to do a 1rm doesn't really have a good cost/benefit.

Hmm, do you think that DL'ing and Squatting at 80% of 1rm before alternate training sessions would be of benefit? That would be three sets of six right.

I would also like to do so extra gym work on a non MA training day so perhaps Squatting and DL'ing at 50-60% (volume?) on a training day and 80% on a non training day(to failure or not to failure?)?

It wouldn't do any harm but you have to remember that what he does is based off his regular strength test results.

Update on the DOMs. Just the tightness in the back but that loossened out at training last night (good rolling session), however my brain refused to work when we went through some techniques. So, live and learn.
:pac:

Weird init?

rubadub

Roper wrote: »

he's been doing 3 sets of 5, with 80% of his max on the last set (which we've never done but calculated). Knowing your max is going to be really important to give you an idea of your best training weight which allows you to work hard but not be crippled physically and emotionally with doms and CNS fatigue when you're learning something new the next day.

Roper wrote: »

He did a 3rm before Christmas which gives all the info I need.

I am still wondering why people bother with doing 1RM work. Obviously competetive lifters will want to know it and train it. But it always seemed a round about way of finding out what you should be lifting for a given no. of reps.

i.e. many people might want to train in say the 8 rep range, so might get their 1RM and then get use say 80% of this for the 8 rep range. But why not just pick a wieght and see if you can do 8 reps. Seems there is an unneccesary calculation/guesswork going on. If I use a calculator like this http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/1rm.htm and stick in and 8 reps 80kg, I get a 1RM estimate of 99kg.

So why not just keep increasing until you can only manage 8, that is your real 8 rep max weight, not a guesstimate. Especially if 1RM work is so taxing on the body.

To me an analogy would be walking upstairs with buckets of paint, you do not want to spill any on yourself of the floor. So you could do it the 1RM way, fill the bucket to the brim, walk upstairs splashing paint all over the place, then check and find you only have 10L of paint left at the top. Then you know to fill maybe 9Litres from now on, a guess really. The more sensible way is to fill it half way, and keep increasing each time you walk up until you can see it is just nearly tipping over.

Roper

rubadub wrote: »

I am still wondering why people bother with doing 1RM work. Obviously competetive lifters will want to know it and train it. But it always seemed a round about way of finding out what you should be lifting for a given no. of reps.

i.e. many people might want to train in say the 8 rep range, so might get their 1RM and then get use say 80% of this for the 8 rep range. But why not just pick a wieght and see if you can do 8 reps. Seems there is an unneccesary calculation/guesswork going on. If I use a calculator like this http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/1rm.htm and stick in and 8 reps 80kg, I get a 1RM estimate of 99kg.

So why not just keep increasing until you can only manage 8, that is your real 8 rep max weight, not a guesstimate. Especially if 1RM work is so taxing on the body.

To me an analogy would be walking upstairs with buckets of paint, you do not want to spill any on yourself of the floor. So you could do it the 1RM way, fill the bucket to the brim, walk upstairs splashing paint all over the place, then check and find you only have 10L of paint left at the top. Then you know to fill maybe 9Litres from now on, a guess really. The more sensible way is to fill it half way, and keep increasing each time you walk up until you can see it is just nearly tipping over.

I sort of agree with you. There are some massive amounts of people who do their 1RM every week or two.

There are two factors at play here though.
1) if you're coaching, you need to be as accurate as possible, and also as economical with the time allotted for testing as possible. Guesstimating 8 rep maxes or the like isn't very accurate when asessing max strength. How do I know there's not another rep in a guy? Or what if we make a miscalculation and he only gets 7? Now we've got less reps than our calculation point. I've also got 6 other guys waiting behind him for their test. You wouldn't see half an hour go by with just one guy if you were trying to assess 8reps with warm up sets etc. The simpler the better. 1 is perfect but not always safe, 3 is good. That's for max strength.
2) Psychologically, people want to see what they can lift and they spend enough time doing assistance work and stuff they can't see tangible results for, so if they go and do a big single they can look and say yes I can. But not every week or even every two weeks.

Brian?

Roper wrote: »

I sort of agree with you. There are some massive amounts of people who do their 1RM every week or two.

There are two factors at play here though.
1) if you're coaching, you need to be as accurate as possible, and also as economical with the time allotted for testing as possible. Guesstimating 8 rep maxes or the like isn't very accurate when asessing max strength. How do I know there's not another rep in a guy? Or what if we make a miscalculation and he only gets 7? Now we've got less reps than our calculation point. I've also got 6 other guys waiting behind him for their test. You wouldn't see half an hour go by with just one guy if you were trying to assess 8reps with warm up sets etc. The simpler the better. 1 is perfect but not always safe, 3 is good. That's for max strength.
2) Psychologically, people want to see what they can lift and they spend enough time doing assistance work and stuff they can't see tangible results for, so if they go and do a big single they can look and say yes I can. But not every week or even every two weeks.

How often would you reccomend working up to a 1RM then? I haven't done it in a long time. I just go with adding weight to my 5x5 when I complete a full set on the 5th set. Would i bet better off working up to a 1RM periodically?

Roper

There's no exact number. My guys test very 6 weeks and actually don't do heavy squats as part of their test. I do some 1 and 3rm with a private individual though and he does it once every 6 weeks.

rubadub

Roper wrote: »

Guesstimating 8 rep maxes or the like isn't very accurate when asessing max strength. How do I know there's not another rep in a guy?

Well I expect you push him? You could just as easily ask how do you know there is not another 1-5kg on his 1RM?

The only 1RM I have done it on is weighted chinups and curls, since I feel it is safe and just wanted to push myself. I have done single rep deadlifts, and expect I could go a fair bit higher, but do not out of worry. Personally I know my true 8RM is more accurate than my 1RM for this reason. At a wieght I can do 7 reps with I have no problem trying for another rep.

Roper wrote: »

Or what if we make a miscalculation and he only gets 7?

Well its not the end of the world so, you just increase the weight knowing he can do more, no big deal if his expected rep range of 8 just turns out to be 7. I expect the 1RM formula is just based on averages of general people, so it is likely to be different for some.

Roper wrote: »

economical with the time allotted for testing as possible....

Now we've got less reps than our calculation point. I've also got 6 other guys waiting behind him for their test.

Right, this is stuff I would not think about, I have never been in such an environment. I would have expected you just let him go at 7 reps, and plug that figure into the formulas and re-estimate his 8RM.

Roper wrote: »

Psychologically, people want to see what they can lift and they spend enough time doing assistance work and stuff they can't see tangible results for, so if they go and do a big single they can look and say yes I can. But not every week or even every two weeks.

True, that is the one reason I would do a 1RM chinup, just for sh*ts n giggles, to see if I can, even though I am not in competition with anybody.

I actually want to try my 1RM chinup again soon. Last was with 50kg. How would you recommend approaching it? doing 1x40, 1x45, or what? is there a general formula, and does it vary between what an exercise is, e.g. deadlift vs chinup.

Roper

rubadub wrote: »

Well I expect you push him? You could just as easily ask how do you know there is not another 1-5kg on his 1RM?

No not really. When we deal with higher reps it becomes about strength endurance so am I dealing with a guy who is really strong but can't endure or a guy who has gassed after 5 or any number of other things? It's just not representative of max strength.

Well its not the end of the world so, you just increase the weight knowing he can do more, no big deal if his expected rep range of 8 just turns out to be 7. I expect the 1RM formula is just based on averages of general people, so it is likely to be different for some.

In short, because if I do an 8rm with him, then I am guessing as to his 1RM. It's an educated guess, but it's still a guess. Also, we're talking two different types of strength when we deal with 8 reps and 1 rep. The tables are very useful and I do use them. I have one in the back of a book I use all the time in fact, but why use the estimators to make a stab at it when with very little additional effort (from the coach that is:) ) you can get a much more accurate or even perfect score?

Right, this is stuff I would not think about, I have never been in such an environment. I would have expected you just let him go at 7 reps, and plug that figure into the formulas and re-estimate his 8RM.

Again, why bother with a possibly inaccurate guess when we can get an exact figure? Even if I wasn't in a team environment as long as we can do 3RM or 1RM safely, why not do it?

I actually want to try my 1RM chinup again soon. Last was with 50kg. How would you recommend approaching it? doing 1x40, 1x45, or what? is there a general formula, and does it vary between what an exercise is, e.g. deadlift vs chinup.

There's no exact formula and everyone is different. For pull ups I wouldn't even guess because I've never done what you're talking about as part of a test, but like any max strength movement, it would be about striking the balance between warm up sets and too much volume beforehand.