Rank in TNG

Khannie · 04-01-2009 9:22am #1

Does Beverly outrank Data?

Your thoughts please.

I'll add mine later.

Johnny Storm · 04-01-2009 9:46am

FWIW Data is referred to as "third-in-command of the E" several times.

nyarlothothep · 04-01-2009 5:08pm

Data should have been made captain at some point in the films perhaps, he had a logical and efficient approach. Anytime he was acting captain he showed up a lot of the other commanding officers.

Goodshape · 04-01-2009 5:27pm

Khannie, surely it would depend on the context?

I'd say Beverly does outrank Data -- she is/was a Commander (rank) for all or most of TNG iirc -- but she's not a command officer and if it came to it, Data, and many others, would get to sit in the chair before her.

Is there a distinction between out-rank and out-command?

And then again, she's free to boss even the captain around if it's a medical issue.

Data was set to become first officer after Riker left in Nemesis, wasn't he?

Vokes · 04-01-2009 5:33pm

Data was a Lt. Cmdr for TNG series, right?

So was out-ranked by (Cmdr) Crusher but he was often given command of the ship, which tallies with what you say Goodshape.

bigdaddyliamo · 04-01-2009 5:34pm

Well Beverly will sit in the chair first now, it being her medical opinion that he is in fact as dead as a wednesday in leitrim!
I can't see Picard letting B4, Data's hillbilly cousin, run the ship anytime soon!:eek:

jhegarty · 04-01-2009 5:37pm

To be technical about it the chief medical officer outranks everyone (including the captain) on some issues.

Khannie · 05-01-2009 7:48am

Thanks for the replies lads.....we'll be a bit out of sync with reply times 'cos I'm the far side of the world....

Goodshape wrote: »

Khannie, surely it would depend on the context?

That's the thing....I just watched the episode where Troy takes the commanders test and I'm confused.....

Goodshape wrote: »

I'd say Beverly does outrank Data -- she is/was a Commander (rank) for all or most of TNG iirc -- but she's not a command officer and if it came to it, Data, and many others, would get to sit in the chair before her.

That fits in with my world view of it. I'd consider data 3rd in command alright, but in the episode I just watched (season 7 episode 16 - "Thine Own Self") data has to call Troy "sir" after she passes the commanders test, implying that she had a higher rank than he did. I don't think anyone would prefer Beverly in command in place of data in a time of crisis. Also, we see him in control of the bridge much more often than Beverly.

Johnny Storm wrote:

FWIW Data is referred to as "third-in-command of the E" several times.

That's where my confusion arises....He is Lieutenant Commander and she's seemingly commander, but my understanding was that data would be 3rd in line for the job (I haven't watched nemesis in years but will probably do so in the next day or so).

helimachoptor · 05-01-2009 10:34am

You know that when asked about their position, its always in the form of "rank and position"

Beverley would be Commander and Chief Med Officer

Data would be Lt. Commander and Ops officer

While she does outrank him, I presume if she was the most senior person left on the ship with data she could take command if she wanted.

In Voyager Harry takes the chair and he's not a command officer.

nyarlothothep · 05-01-2009 12:45pm

bigdaddyliamo wrote: »

Well Beverly will sit in the chair first now, it being her medical opinion that he is in fact as dead as a wednesday in leitrim!
I can't see Picard letting B4, Data's hillbilly cousin, run the ship anytime soon!:eek:

aaaaaggghh nemesis ruined everything! It should be erased from history, its a heinous abomination, a thing that should not be!!

Rawr · 05-01-2009 12:50pm

The Chain o' Command is division based.

This was covered in an Episode of TNG (can't remember which) where Troi sees Dr. Crusher doing a shift on the bridge. It is pointed out that Crusher really doesn't need to be a Commander to be the CMO, as Lt.Commander would do the trick. Crusher just wanted to be a 'Bridge Officer' and got the rank for that. Troi proceeds to do the same in that episode.

That all said Data was 3rd in the Chain for command dicisions, despite being out-ranked. At the same time, Worf seemed to be 4th. And this is all despite them both being outranked, due mostly to the fact that Crusher and Troi are Medical/Sciences branch and not Command or Operations.

Vokes · 05-01-2009 1:17pm

Didnt LaForge outrank Work on command decisions?

Rawr · 05-01-2009 1:54pm

Vokes wrote: »

Didnt LaForge outrank Work on command decisions?

I thought so too, but I remember an episode where Data was in command with Worf as his XO. It could very well have been that LaForge needed to focus on engineering and the job was left to Worf....can't even remember the name of the episode

jhegarty · 05-01-2009 4:18pm

Rawr wrote: »

I thought so too, but I remember an episode where Data was in command with Worf as his XO. It could very well have been that LaForge needed to focus on engineering and the job was left to Worf....can't even remember the name of the episode

Gambit part 2

(It was on last week)

Khannie · 05-01-2009 5:18pm

So what's the final consensus then? she out-ranks him but he still seems to be 3rd in command, is that correct? I don't really see how that works out. In a crisis scenario where Picard and Reiker are killed / incapacitated and Data takes over, he could have an order countermanded by Crusher / Troi. It's late here so I'm hitting the hay.

Goodshape · 05-01-2009 5:29pm

I'm not sure about Troi countermanding Data's orders in that event -- she would be under his command. I'd imagine that regardless of rank, the chain of command on a [star-]ship needs to be maintained, and the person in the chair is the person in charge.

Beverly though is the chief medical officer and can shout out orders above her rank and position on medical grounds.

They use the same system as modern navys iirc though... any naval peeps here to clear it up for us?

seamus · 05-01-2009 5:34pm

I googled it and got a navy-based result. It appears that while doctors can out-rank official personnel (as do chaplains :eek:), they don't out-command them. So if the ship is left with their CMO and a lower-rankcommand officer, the CMO isn't entitled to take command of the ship over the command officer, regardless of rank. I guess it depends on what it is and isn't a "command" decision.

jhegarty · 05-01-2009 7:14pm

seamus wrote: »

I googled it and got a navy-based result. It appears that while doctors can out-rank official personnel (as do chaplains :eek:), they don't out-command them. So if the ship is left with their CMO and a lower-rankcommand officer, the CMO isn't entitled to take command of the ship over the command officer, regardless of rank. I guess it depends on what it is and isn't a "command" decision.

But in this case the CMO is also a command officer. So it's more complex.

RodVelvet · 06-01-2009 2:24am

In an alternate timeframe Beverley was captain of the USS Pasteur which was a medical vessel. Would a non medical specialist be captain of a medical class starship?

The CMO can remove a commanding officer from duty on medical grounds if I remember correctly. If she didn't agree with data ask to meet him in captain's chambers get him to look out the window and switch him off thus taking command.

Maybe Commander Class CMO would just appoint the most suitable candidate in this case Data rather than taking control themselves. Might depend on the situation also, something illogical like one of Kirks or Picards unique tactics may not even be contemplated by Data so he might be passed over in a certain situation.

helimachoptor · 14-01-2009 1:20pm

Some good arguments. But the fact that data is always referred to and 3rd in command means that he is 3rd in command. If it was Crusher then Data wouldn't be referred to in this way.

In regards to Geordi there was an episode where he was left in command when he was sitting at what now is the Ops console but what was the Con.

I think he was either a full LT or a LT j.g. He was left in command by Picard and even though the Chief Engineer outranked him La Forge was still making the command decisions.

IvySlayer · 14-01-2009 8:11pm

RodVelvet wrote: »

In an alternate timeframe Beverley was captain of the USS Pasteur which was a medical vessel. Would a non medical specialist be captain of a medical class starship?

The CMO can remove a commanding officer from duty on medical grounds if I remember correctly. If she didn't agree with data ask to meet him in captain's chambers get him to look out the window and switch him off thus taking command.

Maybe Commander Class CMO would just appoint the most suitable candidate in this case Data rather than taking control themselves. Might depend on the situation also, something illogical like one of Kirks or Picards unique tactics may not even be contemplated by Data so he might be passed over in a certain situation.

She can remove him only on medical grounds correct, she can't just stroll in and say 'You're sick, go to your quarters!' She would need concrete proof. A CO could easily relieve a CMO, which Picard did in one episode, one with the Ferengi scienctist, and have her medical license/clearence revoked.

Also Data is an android.....Maybe she would need an Engineers diagnostic too?

Rank in TNG

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