House is still cold after spending another grand a few weeks ago

workaccount

Hi,
Our house now has attic insulation, double glazed windows and we recently got the walls filled with polypearl.

The boiler in the shed is up to 90 degress constantly but the house doesn't get that hot. When you turn the heat off it's cold again in more or less an hour.

What could be going on? The only thing I can think of is boiler not powerful enough for 8 radiators.

Help!

Lex Luthor

I'm running about 13-14 rads off our boiler....8 should be no problem

what about the front door? Is it leaking/draughty?

workaccount

Lex Luthor wrote: »

I'm running about 13-14 rads off our boiler....8 should be no problem

what about the front door? Is it leaking/draughty?

No the front door is grand. We close the doors on all the rooms to keep the heat in but they don't get that hot.

The radiators are fairly warm to touch but they wouldn't be boiling or anything.

We had a range years ago and all the rooms were hot with it. It's seems as if the boiler is not heating the radiators up enough even though it's at max on the thermostat (90 degrees!)

What kind of boiler are you using actually?

Victor

Your problem may be the actual radiators - have they been checked for air and / or sediment?

Also it is mid-winter.

workaccount

Victor wrote: »

Your problem may be the actual radiators - have they been checked for air and / or sediment?

Also it is mid-winter.

There's definitely no air in them. Somebody suggested before that we should have the radiators cleaned but it doesn't make sense to me that abit of dirt/sediment could make such a difference to the temperature the radiators heat up to.

Heatherview

Hi workaccount
After all the insulation you have done it will take a bit of time to be of value.check a few things

1. Boiler Size
2. Rad Sizes are they big enough to heat room there in ?
3. Is your pipe work under ground insulated
4. Is pipe sized properly in floors
5. Is pipe from boiler properly insulated into the house

What type of house do you have Bungalow/two storey/semi or detached?

To check rad sizes - measure room length x room width x 50 this will give a figure do same in all rooms add all figures you get and add10,000 for domestic water give figure will give you a Btu output. Then check Btu outlet on boiler. The value you get from rooms + 10,000 will determine you boiler output.
Good Luck
Heatherview

workaccount

The only difference between the range we had a few years ago and the boiler now is that the range was right beside the hot press where the water is ditributed to the rads and the boiler is out in the shed so the hot water has to travel along underground pipes outside. This pipe is insulated but I'd imagine the water still loses some temp. along the way. It couldn't be a massive loss of temperature though surely!

As you can imagine were afraid to spend anymore money. We've had so many "tradesmen" with the solution when none of them really had a clue.

I mean the whole thing is simple enough really - we have a hot press where the water is distributed to the radiators and then we have a source of hot water - the boiler. Why aren't the radiators red hot? Where is all the heat going to - I might have to get a thermometer and started measuring the temperature at various stages along the system to try and demystify this.

Amalgam

workaccount, I'd like to apologise before asking this question.

Do you dress normally? It's just that I've been around to folk complaining about heating and they're the type that slums it in a t-shirt.. and then expect the heating to take up the slack, jammed into the red on the dial.

Again, sorry..

workaccount

Right I've just gone out there now and stuck a thermometer on the pipe. The temperature going into the house is only 37 degrees celcius and the temperature coming back is 30 degrees! Is that wrong when the temperature of the boiler is set to 90??

Avns1s

Amalgam wrote: »

workaccount, I'd like to apologise before asking this question.

Do you dress normally? It's just that I've been around to folk complaining about heating and they're the type that slums it in a t-shirt.. and then expect the heating to take up the slack, jammed into the red on the dial.

Again, sorry..

I don't think that's a fair comment.

A domestic heating system should be able to get the temp of the house up to 23 - 24 degrees (t-shirt temps :cool: ) comfortably except when the temp is say -10C outside which doesn't happen too often and certainly isn't the case at the moment.

There is clearly something wrong with the system.

Avns1s

workaccount wrote: »

Right I've just gone out there now and stuck a thermometer on the pipe. The temperature going into the house is only 37 degrees celcius and the temperature coming back is 30 degrees! Is that wrong when the temperature of the boiler is set to 90??

Does your boiler keep going flat out, never reaching the temp where is switched off by the thermostat on the boiler itself?

Has it being serviced recently? If it has and it doesn't reach the temps on the thermostat then it would suggest that it's under specced for the job in hand. If it hasn't been serviced, then its possible that the chamber is clogged with soot reducing the efficiency of the boiler.

What happens if you turn off most of the rads except say the one closest, does it then heat this up and the thermostat switch out the boiler.

sparkyjo

you should only need to set your boiler at between 65 - 70 and you should be getting around that leaving and around a drop of about 10 degrees coming back once it has run up to temp you should get a plumber over to have a look and you are probably eating fuel so in the long run it will pay for itself and should only cost about 100 or so unless your boiler is knackered has it been servised recently

Hagar

workaccount wrote: »

Right I've just gone out there now and stuck a thermometer on the pipe. The temperature going into the house is only 37 degrees celcius and the temperature coming back is 30 degrees! Is that wrong when the temperature of the boiler is set to 90??

Any chance the temp gauge on the boiler is faulty?

I got caught in a rented house a few years ago by a double thermostat set up. There was a thermostat on the boiler wasset to only 10 deg (anti frost protection I think) and no matter how we adjusted the indoor theromstat it was overridden by the lower thermostat. Is there any chance you have a second thermostat on the system from when it used to be run by the solid fuel unit?

workaccount

It was serviced last year by a fella that hadn't a clue. Made a mess of our new electric shower aswell.

Can somebody confirm that if the boiler is set at 90 degrees that the water coming out should be that or is that 90 degress referring to some internal temperature in the boiler?

workaccount

Hagar wrote: »

Any chance the temp gauge on the boiler is faulty?

Possibly but I don't where I would get another stat to test with.

311

Amalgam wrote: »

workaccount, I'd like to apologise before asking this question.

Do you dress normally? It's just that I've been around to folk complaining about heating and they're the type that slums it in a t-shirt.. and then expect the heating to take up the slack, jammed into the red on the dial.

Again, sorry..

Thats a silly thing to say ,a house should be comfortable and thats it.

Pete67

It's difficult to troubleshoot a heating system without seeing it, but if I was looking at it based on what I've heard so far, i would be looking at the boiler controls first, especially the thermostats - there should be one adjustable one to control the temperature of the water leaving the boiler, and a second safey one (non-adjustable) to cut out the boiler if the first one fails and leaves the boiler on permanently. Either of these could have failed and trip the boiler out at much too low a temperature.

Also, I would be taking a look at the circulating pump - is it running? You don't say if the boiler is oil fired, if so there may not be any flowswitch to shutdown the boiler if the pump fails. Gas boilers generally have this built in so you would see an alarm on the front panel if the pump was not running.

Post a bit more information about the heating system and you may get further help. Especially let us know if the boiler is firing continuously or if it only fires for a short period - for example is it firing say one minute every 10 minutes or what?

workaccount

Pete67 wrote: »

It's difficult to troubleshoot a heating system without seeing it, but if I was looking at it based on what I've heard so far, i would be looking at the boiler controls first, especially the thermostats - there should be one adjustable one to control the temperature of the water leaving the boiler, and a second safey one (non-adjustable) to cut out the boiler if the first one fails and leaves the boiler on permanently. Either of these could have failed and trip the boiler out at much too low a temperature.

Also, I would be taking a look at the circulating pump - is it running? You don't say if the boiler is oil fired, if so there may not be any flowswitch to shutdown the boiler if the pump fails. Gas boilers generally have this built in so you would see an alarm on the front panel if the pump was not running.

Post a bit more information about the heating system and you may get further help. Especially let us know if the boiler is firing continuously or if it only fires for a short period - for example is it firing say one minute every 10 minutes or what?

The circulating pump does work and the boiler does seem to fire constantly - We turn it on for a few hours every night and it never turns off.

It is an oil boiler. I don't know if there is an automatic cut off tbh. I might be able to trick the boiler into out putting the max temperature to rule out any problem with the thermostat.

If the thermostat is set to 90 degrees then doesn't that mean the water coming out should be 90?

Pete67

workaccount wrote: »

The circulating pump does work and the boiler does seem to fire constantly - We turn it on for a few hours every night and it never turns off.

It is an oil boiler. I don't know if there is an automatic cut off tbh. I might be able to trick the boiler into out putting the max temperature to rule out any problem with the thermostat.

If the thermostat is set to 90 degrees then doesn't that mean the water coming out should be 90?

If the thermostat is wired correctly, it's working as it should, and everything else is working too then yes, the water flow temperature leaving the boiler should be close to the thermostat setting.

When you measured the temperature of the flow and return pipes, was that in the shed close to the boiler? Or in the house somewhere?

When you say the boiler is firing continuously, are you sure that the burner is actually lighting, and producing flames, or could you just be hearing the blower fan operating even when the flame has not been established?

Pete.

JamesM

Go to heatmerchants or any supplier. Buy a pipe stat for less than 30 euro. Sit it on the flow pipe leaving the top of the boiler. See what the temperature is (after a few minutes it will click at the temp). Work your way towards the house and monitor the temp. Are you sure that the boiler has been cleaned out recently ? What make is it - we can tell you how to open it and check for dirt. Even put you hand on the flow pipe close to the boiler - you won't be able to keep your hand on it at 60, not to mind 90. Are you sure that there isn't a leak undergroung between the house and boilerhouse ?
Jim.

JamesM

If the boiler runs constantly at 90 degrees, then the heat is going somewhere. Either the boiler is very dirty and the heat is going up the flue, or there is a huge heat loss, or water loss, underground.
Jim.

workaccount

JamesM wrote: »

Go to heatmerchants or any supplier. Buy a pipe stat for less than 30 euro. Sit it on the flow pipe leaving the top of the boiler. See what the temperature is (after a few minutes it will click at the temp). Work your way towards the house and monitor the temp. Are you sure that the boiler has been cleaned out recently ? What make is it - we can tell you how to open it and check for dirt. Even put you hand on the flow pipe close to the boiler - you won't be able to keep your hand on it at 60, not to mind 90. Are you sure that there isn't a leak undergroung between the house and boilerhouse ?
Jim.

It's a firebird popular 90. I stuck a thermometer to the flow pipe just coming out of the boiler and it's about 37c. The pipe bringing water back is about 30c.

copper12

workaccount wrote: »

It's a firebird popular 90. I stuck a thermometer to the flow pipe just coming out of the boiler and it's about 37c. The pipe bringing water back is about 30c.

How long was the boiler running before you took the temperature ?
If the heating system worked with the range then it should run ok with the oil boiler
You can be going around in circles unless you get the basics right .
Are you sure you are not loosing water in the system tie up the ball Cox and check?.
Are you sure the pipe work from the boiler house to the hot press is insulated ?
As James said after about half an hour you should not be able to place your hand on the flow from the boiler

Pete67

The OP has already determined that there is no air in the radiators so a gross leak underground seems unlikely. Given the flow and return temps stated (37 / 30 C) it does seem like there is a problem with either the burner or the thermostats or other controls.

I wonder if there is a frost stat fitted with a pipe stat on the return which given the current cold weather could fire the burner and run the pump until the return water temp reaches approx 30C and then shut it down. If the main controls were not calling for heat then the frost stat could be the only thing operating the burner.

If so, there would be another means of operating the boiler for normal operation - such as a room thermstat in the house, or a timeswitch either in the shed or in the house - are they working correctly?

OP has the oil burner operated satisfactorily before and is this a new problem, or has it never operated properly?

JamesM

workaccount wrote: »

It's a firebird popular 90. I stuck a thermometer to the flow pipe just coming out of the boiler and it's about 37c. The pipe bringing water back is about 30c.

If the boiler is running constantly, and the flow close to the boiler is only 37c, then there is almost no heat from the flame. In fact it is difficult to understand how any kind of flame is there at all. Try taking off the 4 nuts on the front plate. Carefully pull away the front plate and see if the boiler is thick with dirt, and if the baffles are still in place.
Also carefully look at the flame - it should be clean, yellowish, and almost reach the back of the boiler. Be careful when you do this - it's hot in there :eek:
Jim.

JamesM

Also check the boiler stat. After the boiler has been on for an hour or so, turn the stat down and see how low it goes before cutting out.
Jim.

ART6

OP you say the boiler is showing 90 degrees but the flow pipe from it is only showing 37 degrees, with the circulating pump running OK. That isn't possible, so I would suspect the temperature gauge, which works with a capilliary tube to a bulb generally in the boiler shell somewhere. As the liguid in the bulb expands with temperature it applies increasing pressure to the gauge,which is calibrated to read temperature although it is actually responding to pressure. Such gauges are very prone to damage since the capilliary tube is easily kinked. in which case the gauge will be responding to the pressure caused by the kink and not from the expansion of the liquid, or its needle mechanism could simply be stuck -- again not unusual. In the boiler casing there should be a separate thermostat that actually monitors the flow temperature, so I'd turn that up full and ignore the temperature gauge. If you still don't get heat into the house, check the stat.

Also, as Jamesm says, take a good look at the flame. If it's been fiddled with by an amateur he could have adjusted the air supply far too high (that's the most usual error). In that case you will have a very short flame and no heat, since the excess air will be shoving it all up the chimney.

workaccount

I wonder does it take a few cycles of the water going through the system to get the temp up to 90c?

I think the pipe bringing the water in distirbutes most to the rads and the rest goes into the bottom of the water tank. The water going back comes from the top of the tank so there is colder water going back all the time?

Pete67

workaccount wrote: »

I wonder does it take a few cycles of the water going through the system to get the temp up to 90c?

I think the pipe bringing the water in distirbutes most to the rads and the rest goes into the bottom of the water tank. The water going back comes from the top of the tank so there is colder water going back all the time?

Once you start the boiler from cold it should fire continuously until the water comes up to the setpoint of the boiler thermostat, it should then cut in and out as necessary to maintain this setpoint. How frequently it cuts in depends on the heat load, ie how many rads are on and whether the hot water cylinder is hot or not.

garbanzo

Have you thought that maybe you have the flu' or something ?

ART6

workaccount wrote: »

I wonder does it take a few cycles of the water going through the system to get the temp up to 90c?

I think the pipe bringing the water in distirbutes most to the rads and the rest goes into the bottom of the water tank. The water going back comes from the top of the tank so there is colder water going back all the time?

It does take a few minutes to get the whole system temperature up to set point, and how long depends on whether the rads and hot water cylinder are warm or stone cold. However, your system should never operate at 90 degrees -- that's far too hot, bearing in mind that boiling point is only 100. You would burn your hands on the radiators. That's why I think the boiler temperature gauge is banjaxed. If that was not the case, and if the boiler was indeed operating at 90 degrees, then it would only run for seconds at a time and would then cut out for some time before its internal temperature dropped enough for a restart.

Assuming you have a conventional atmospheric system, there will be one circuit from the boiler through the coil in the copper cylinder, and a second pumped one through the rads. They are connected at the boiler, but the supply to the rads doesn't come off the top of the cylinder. It's only domestic hot water that does that.

The only other possibility, if the temperature gauge is accurate, is that there is a blockge between the boiler and the outlet flow pipe, but that is very unlikely unless there is a valve there where one shouldn't be.

JamesM

workaccount wrote: »

I wonder does it take a few cycles of the water going through the system to get the temp up to 90c?

I think the pipe bringing the water in distirbutes most to the rads and the rest goes into the bottom of the water tank. The water going back comes from the top of the tank so there is colder water going back all the time?

The hot water from the boiler goes into the top coil connection in the hot water cylinder.
Jim.

JamesM

If the thermostat on the boiler was faulty, the boiler would continue to run until the water boiled, or shut off early. The boiler seems to run continuously, and yet does not heat up. Either you are not measuring the temp correctly at the outlet, or the flame is not heating the boiler.
Jim.

poconnell

Hi Workaccount. The water temp on the flow pipe from your boiler into the houseshould be about 60 degree centigrade. You say it's about 37 degree centigrade so it looks like the boiler is not heating the water to the rads to the required temp. The problem now is to find out why but it looks like a boiler fault.

311

Workaccount ,from your post about being not sure about how many cycles your system needs. It sounds like you ran a temperature test on the pipes ,shortly after running the boiler from cold.

If there is trouble with your systems ,it can take anything up to over an hour to get ok temperatures. I don't work with oil boilers at all ,only gas but it does sounds like your boiler is not burning properly.

Heatherview

Hi workaccount
What size pipe is coming in from boiler house. What size piep is it connecting to inside house. Try something go into attic about 1 hr after heating is on see is the water in 10 gal warm ? Have your radiators been balanced ? Would your cylinder in hot press be connected like a rad ?
Mark water level in expansion tank go back after a time see does water level fall?

Heatherview
To get to the bottom of your problem try all above and come back

delly

I'll add another possible problem which I haven't seen mentioned already and that is the workload on the pump itself.

I moved into a 4 bed detached house 4 years ago and always felt that the temperature never really got to what I'd like, despite having the boiler on near max setting and having the radiators balanced. I even got a bigger rad in my living room as this was the coldest of all rooms. In the end I just accepted the way it was, despite my heating guy giving me a list of possibles, but no definite's.

Anyhow, last year my pump started making grumbling noises and within a week it had packed up. I asked my heating guy to replace it and knowing my earlier problems with heat, he said for and extra €40 above the standard, I could get a better pump branded 'Grundfos' which he said was the dogs proverbials.

So, €250 later my heating system is like night and day. I cannot explain how much a difference it made, as my radiators are too hot to touch and this with the boiler just over the half way mark and the pump on the slowest setting.

Avns1s

delly wrote: »

I'll add another possible problem which I haven't seen mentioned already and that is the workload on the pump itself.

I moved into a 4 bed detached house 4 years ago and always felt that the temperature never really got to what I'd like, despite having the boiler on near max setting and having the radiators balanced. I even got a bigger rad in my living room as this was the coldest of all rooms. In the end I just accepted the way it was, despite my heating guy giving me a list of possibles, but no definite's.

Anyhow, last year my pump started making grumbling noises and within a week it had packed up. I asked my heating guy to replace it and knowing my earlier problems with heat, he said for and extra €40 above the standard, I could get a better pump branded 'Grundfos' which he said was the dogs proverbials.

So, €250 later my heating system is like night and day. I cannot explain how much a difference it made, as my radiators are too hot to touch and this with the boiler just over the half way mark and the pump on the slowest setting.

Good point Delly but I would have thought that in your situation, the boiler was producing enough heat BUT the pump was insufficient to pump it round the house. If this was the OP's problem, I would expect his boiler would be cutting in and out activated by the thermostat and that the water in the top pipe on the boiler would be hotter than 37C.

My money is still on the boiler not getting the heat from the flame for some reason.

delly

Avns1s wrote: »

Good point Delly but I would have thought that in your situation, the boiler was producing enough heat BUT the pump was insufficient to pump it round the house. If this was the OP's problem, I would expect his boiler would be cutting in and out activated by the thermostat and that the water in the top pipe on the boiler would be hotter than 37C.

My money is still on the boiler not getting the heat from the flame for some reason.

Aye, your probably right, although I know my boiler was on near constant at the time due to the return water having lost so much heat.

trackerman

If your rads are only at 30 to 37 degrees, i.e. you can hold your hand on them for ages without feeling a burn... then you have a problem at the boiler end.

If you set the boiler to 90 degrees, then the rads should be red hot, too hot to hold without feeling a burn.

My advice is to get a real professional heating engineer come and inspect the system.
Don't skimp on this, there are many many chancers out there that fancy themselves as experts but have not had any proper training.

It might cost you a few hundred quid, but he should be able to identify the problem and give you peace of mind.

Hagar

Stupid question...

Is that 90 degree reading Fahrenheit by any chance?
90F = 32C, not a million miles off your readings.
37C is only body temp. That's not going to heat anything.

What's the highest number on the gauge you are reading the 90 degrees from?
Can you set that gauge to 140F?