Rant: Gay, but don't fancy gay guys!

LegacyUser

Hi,

This may seem like a strange scenario, but I thought I'd put it out there to see if anyone else is in the same situation? Just for context: I'm a 24yr old guy and I've been openly gay with my family and closest friends for the last 2years I'd say. People don't seem to think, or assume I'm gay on meeting me, because I'm not effeminate and don't portray the overt stereotypes often associated with gay men.
Anyway, basically my situation is that while I do fancy men, I genuinely don't seem to fancy men who are gay/openly gay. I only seem to fancy men who are straight(or because I'm a believer in the whole kinsey logic, who are predominantly straight.) In my humble(perhaps wrong) opinion openly gay guys I meet have a look/persona that I just don't fancy. Be it their stance/posture, the gayface look, overly manicured fem looks and so on. I just don't seem to seem to fancy any gay guys and these straight acting gays seem to be very elusive, or maybe my criteria is very high? I don't enjoy the 'gay' scene at all, I'm just not into the segregation and flambuoyance of it all, seems rather outdated to me. I even sleep with girls the majority of the time as a result of this. Just wondering if anyone has any advice, or has been in the same situation?

Sir Ophiuchus

You need to clarify what you're saying.

By fancy do you mean sexual attraction, generic other-attraction, or both?

By "gay" do you mean "persons of exclusively or predominantly homosexual orientation" or "effeminate"?

There are plenty of non-scene, non-stereotypical gay guys out there - most of whom *hate* the term straight-acting and the internalised homophobia it implies, by the way.

Your comment that you "even sleep with girls the majority of the time" is the only odd thing about your post. Can you elaborate? Do you actually find these girls attractive sexually? If not, why do you sleep with them? If so, why do you identify as (predominantly or exclusively) gay?

the_syco

If you know your gay, but are f**king women, I'd say you should look into the possibility that you're bisexual. You seem to like the best of both worlds

As for the gay thing, sounds like you're not into camp/pansy "stereotypical gay" guys, but rather a "macho" gay man. You don't state your location, but maybe the try the George (Dublin), or a similar venue, where you know that the people in there are most likely gay, so when you see a nice looking "macho" man, you'll feel comfortable approaching him.

I say macho, as opposed to a metrosexual male that has his nails manicured... :rolleyes::P

Untense

Heya,

I think Sir Ophiuchus has a point there. It sounds like you're using the term 'gay' to describe same-sex attraction, but you're also lumping it in with a bunch of stereotypes and traits associated with same-sex attraction, ie: effeminacy and flamboyance.
I don't think I'd be making a drastic leap in assuming you're not very effeminate acting yourself. If so, I'm stumped if you have not already broken down this association, as you yourself are attracted to the same sex and yet don't have these traits.

What are you actually looking for in a guy?
When you say you only fancy men who are straight, do you mean you fancy men who are attracted to women exclusively? Or again, do you mean the stereotyped macho traits generally associated with a guy?
On both counts I'm sure you're not alone, although if it's the former you're probably going to be sleeping with girls for a long time.
On the latter, any form of affecting is a real turn off for me, be it effeminacy or machismo, both to me are just one of the same, it's like some people need to use their whole self as a sort of bizarre billboard, to send out a certain message or make some point or other. But if it's the other end of the camp spectrum you find attractive, and you know what you want, it only makes sense to follow that.

You finished with asking for advice, but your message was a bit vague and so it's hard to know what you wanted advice on.
If you're interested in finding a guy who likes guys who doesn't fit the stereotype, I really think you can find someone if you open your mind a bit to the possibility.
What I believe is a more important point is; if I were even remotely interested in being physically intimate with girls, I would probably regret having outted myself to family and friends as exclusively gay. It just seems a bit limiting.

Boston

Two ways of looking at this.

You're genuinely only interested in "straight acting" males, but you're finding it hard to meet them. On the other hand you're possibly deeply ashamed of being interested in other males so you label any gay male you meet as effeminate and thus sabotage the possibility of being with them.

I think its the former.

1) There are a huge number of straight acting gay/bi males out there if you're serious about looking for one. But even the straightest gay guy is still gay. He'll want to kiss you, hold your hand, and be open about your relationship. You seem very put off by the thought of being opening gay or with someone who is.

2) You sleep with women. Have you asked yourself why this is? Is it to reaffirm your status as "Straight acting" or is it because you really don't want to be gay?

Maybe I'm way off. I will say one more thing, "straight acting" gay guys don't hang out in the George or the Dragon or any gay bar like those two. From experience its extremely uncomfortable.

unreggd

Id be similar in the fact that I find effeminate guys [wether they're actually gay or straight] EXTREMELY irritating

And this is constantly stamped as me bein homophobic, when im not, at all

Its simply a thing that irritates me, and we cant control what we get annoyed by

I see where the OP is coming from, but not with the sleepin with girls

Although u mention the Kinsey yoke, so im guessin ur not in the "exclusive" category, like say ur "mostly gay but still a little straight" that u'd rather go with ur weaker impulse as the effeminate ones turn u off so much

Rick_

I'm 24, I'm a very "straight acting" guy, (which is such a crappy term to use, because I'm not acting in any way, this is just how I am). I don't have a gay look, no tan, no make-up, no effeminate personality traits, have a deep voice etc. and I also don't go for effeminate types or visit the gay scene at all. I too would like to meet someone like me. You should register and get in touch OP. If for nothing more than a chat with someone in the same boat as yourself, minus the sleeping with women part.

Selkies

I'm transgender, want to be female, whenever I look at these "fairies" (apologies if that word is inappropriate), I can't help but feel that they are putting on a mask over themselves. They are not being real. The transgender folk are not acting like the gender they are trying to be and I'm lacking in rolemodels in that respect.
I like putting on makeup, wearing female clothing, taking care of my appearance etc but I'm not going to start calling people "Dawrling" or something.

Having said that I do recognise that I'm prejudiced. I recently watched Breakfast on Pluto and it took me a while to get used to the way he acted. Really grated on me at time. Made me realised its one of the reasons I lack the confidence to go out and be myself, because I'm prejudiced against other folk who are transgendered and their expression. This prejudice is actually stopping me from expressing myself properly.

I don't know if this is the case for you but I imagine it would be a good idea to take the route that I'm planning and get to know some of the more flamboyant folk as friends. Who knows, maybe I'll see you in a bar someday.

LegacyUser

Paddy C wrote: »

I'm 24, I'm a very "straight acting" guy, (which is such a crappy term to use, because I'm not acting in any way, this is just how I am).

OT I know, but anyway. I think people are actually too scared to use the term straight acting. Some people nearly apologise every time they use it, and a small number of others react negatively with the "well if you're acting you're not being real" line.

On a purely pedantic note, "act" doesn't primarily mean acting in the theatrical sense - ie an affectation. The most pure definition of the word "act" is just literally to do something or take an action.

To say you're straight-acting doesn't have to insinuate you're affecting in any way.

Hopefully that made sense, sorry if it's a bit garbled, had a few too many

LegacyUser

I'm the op. Don't know why I'm so cowardly in being unregistered, but I think it's just a privacy thing more than anything. Also, looking at my post retrospectively I can see it is worded rather confusingly.

Interesting and pretty understanding set of responses there guys. I think it has reassured me that it is possible to meet non-stereo-typically gay men, I just have to look harder. I think it's just that we're bombarded with stereotypes all the time (queer eye for the straight guy et al) that some times it seems hopeless for guys who aren't interested in the scene or meeting strangers over the internet, and just want to meet like-minded men (who like rugby, rally driving, history and travel. Instead of shopping, kylie, hair gel, fake tan and trips to london, amsterdam and san fran as depicted on tv and seen in real life I guess) in everyday life and non-exclusive bars.

I do realise there are many many gay men who don't conform to the effeminate stereotypes, but they 'seem' fewer, are less obvious and are harder to come by for the non-discerning gay guy, hence the frustration I guess. Although, I often wonder how many guys out there outwardly appear to conform to straight stereotypes and live outwardly straight lives, but are actually bi or gay?(I think it's many more than people think.) My own football loving, bisexual father having been one of them.

As for the sleeping with girls? It's easier, it's habit and yes there must be some attraction there. As for some of the posts that suggested there might be some discomfort on my part with my sexuality or a dislike of gay people? No, that's the case at all! I just don't fancy stereotypically gay guys and I don't enjoy the 'gay scene' at all. I don't really think that correlates with me being uncomfortable in my own skin or disliking stereotypically gay men! It's pretty simple: don't fancy effeminate men, don't like gay bars! Have no problem with gay bars and have no problem with effeminate men, just not for me to socialise in, or have sex with respectively. Although, superficial queeny types of all varieties irritate me, just as superficial straight idiots irritate me.


Once again, thanks to the many posters who reassured me that there are gay men out there who fit my, non-stereotypical, type. I just have to look harder!
Perhaps I should have just named the thread frustrated by the proponderence of stupid gay stereotypes, frustrated by being expected to segregate myself socially and the lack of openly gay guys I fancy?

LegacyUser

hey there OP. A few questions: Are you still in college, most colleges would have a LGB Society that maybe you might meet likeminded men through. Do you live in a large town or city where there is a scene of some sort or are you in a more rural area where it is harder to meet gay men of any type? Because while many of the men you have met might be the typical gay stereotype, you might meet some who are not.

You also mention your father and describe him as football loving and bisexual. Would it be worth talking to him about it? Maybe he had the same experience in the past?

smileykey

They probably just seem fewer because they are less obvious. I don't know if you have much experience with gay people but I know that a lot of people who don't tend to assume that most gay people confirm to the stereotypes because they only recognise the stereotypical people as being gay anf therefore think that since all the people they can tell are gay are camp/butch whatever, that must mean that all gays are like that. But they're not.

On another matter, I find the term straight-acting offensive. I'm a girly lesbian for want of a better term. I like a dresses and heals and the a little bit of make-up, etc. I act like me and I'm not straight so therefore can't see how thats straight acting.

Unregistered wrote: »

On a purely pedantic note, "act" doesn't primarily mean acting in the theatrical sense - ie an affectation. The most pure definition of the word "act" is just literally to do something or take an action.

To say you're straight-acting doesn't have to insinuate you're affecting in any way.

Hopefully that made sense, sorry if it's a bit garbled, had a few too many

This doesn't make the term any less offensive because it still suggests that I take action in a stright way and whats a straight way or a gay way at the end of the day?

UU

Well I'm "camp" or "effeminate" and I'm not acting in anyway either. People are going on saying that they find "straight-acting" offensive, well then maybe I find it offensive being called "camp" all the time! I prefer terms colourful or flamboyant. To avoid stereotyping and making prejudiced remarks, it is very important to emphasise and understand. I never didn't act the way I do act (acting in this sense describing my overall personality rather than acting as actors do). I find it annoying that people can turn around and say that I'm trying to conform and that I'm acting a certain way to fit in with the gay scene. None of these statements are true. I'm an individualistic person and express myself as I am. I have my own style, traits, whatever. I just can't stand being put in a box and labelled! If I were "straight-acting" would that be the case? possibly. I'm not saying some people don't act a certain way to fit in we all do we all act differently depending on our social environment. But do some gay guys act "camp" to fit in? yes some do and that's not being sincere to oneself. If somebody has a personality that is rather "effeminate" then they are being true to themselves.

By the way, different people have different sexual preferences. Some like "straight-acting" guys and others like more flamboyant types and that must be respected.

Gosh sorry about the rant!

Murder.1

Unregistered wrote: »

Hi,

This may seem like a strange scenario, but I thought I'd put it out there to see if anyone else is in the same situation? Just for context: I'm a 24yr old guy and I've been openly gay with my family and closest friends for the last 2years I'd say. People don't seem to think, or assume I'm gay on meeting me, because I'm not effeminate and don't portray the overt stereotypes often associated with gay men.
Anyway, basically my situation is that while I do fancy men, I genuinely don't seem to fancy men who are gay/openly gay. I only seem to fancy men who are straight(or because I'm a believer in the whole kinsey logic, who are predominantly straight.) In my humble(perhaps wrong) opinion openly gay guys I meet have a look/persona that I just don't fancy. Be it their stance/posture, the gayface look, overly manicured fem looks and so on. I just don't seem to seem to fancy any gay guys and these straight acting gays seem to be very elusive, or maybe my criteria is very high? I don't enjoy the 'gay' scene at all, I'm just not into the segregation and flambuoyance of it all, seems rather outdated to me. I even sleep with girls the majority of the time as a result of this. Just wondering if anyone has any advice, or has been in the same situation?

I can relate to this. I know exactly what your saying! I just dont find gay men attractive. I think people here are looking farrrrrr too deep into matters and pulling unnecessary views out of their own heads. And today infact, I was thinking about turning I dont know what it is, nor could I explain it (it's impossible) but for some reason - at this stage of my life -camp men or even the general gay man can come across as very unnattractive to me.

corkstudent

I think the basic problem is he wants to meet guys, but not guys affiliated with the "gay" community, and thus outside any kind of collective grouping, it's difficult to find someone.

I agree with Selkies too. I just don't like that personality archetype and it makes me feel uncomfortable, because it's just downright tacky and I don't like tacky.

LegacyUser

I can relate to OP. Im only 18 but already im feeling like i will never find anybody who is like me. I really wish there was a site that all "straight-acting" homosexuals could join and meet others alike. ( i say straight acting....i dont care what people say about this label....its just the only term i can use to describe it) . Ive tried it on with a few good (straight) mates of mine who i became attracted too.....but no luck. I understand how hard it is to find a gay guy who does not fit the " visible" stereotype of a gay guy.

ohh and about those women you slept with too......ive slept with 2 women....yes its fun..pleasurable....but i never "fancied" those girls and i certainly wouldnt be able to show "love" ( in the non-physical sense) for a female. Its hard to explain if you havnt stepped in my shoes.

dimejinky99

Paddy you're always out, gerrouwa that garden..
broadly i'd agree, i don't fancy 'gay' guys much either, but the OP needs to broaden his horizons and not be dissuaded from doing the scene becuase of those kindsa guys 'cos thats not all thats out there. I'd hazard a guess at saying it's the behaviour more than the people that he's annoyed about, and even the campest guys aren't completely like that.
Stretch yer legs fella and go have a look. They aren't all bad. You don't hafta marry them but have a look anyways.

oisindoyle

It seems to me that a number of posters here who "hate" effem guys and only wish to meet "straight" acting guys have huge internalised homophobia.
Gay guys come in all shapes and sizes ,from all walks of life,rich poor,fat thin, effem,non efffem.
What hope have gay guys wanting equality,when other gay guys dont like other guys who are gay but a little effem...........

Boston

Two points.

Theres nothing "equal" about finding someone attractive, its very subjective. Not finding X attractive is just a matter of personal taste.

It probably does have something to do with wanting to be discrete though. Back in the day discrete and straight acting where interchangeable.

oisindoyle

Boston wrote: »

Two points.

Theres nothing "equal" about finding someone attractive, its very subjective. Not finding X attractive is just a matter of personal taste.

It probably does have something to do with wanting to be discrete though. Back in the day discrete and straight acting where interchangeable.

What exactly do you mean by "theres nothing equal" ect...??
As for the term straight acting ,I hate it ,its silly its makes no sense."

Boston

Do you find all people equally attractive ?

Murder.1

oisindoyle wrote: »

It seems to me that a number of posters here who "hate" effem guys and only wish to meet "straight" acting guys have huge internalised homophobia.
Gay guys come in all shapes and sizes ,from all walks of life,rich poor,fat thin, effem,non efffem.
What hope have gay guys wanting equality,when other gay guys dont like other guys who are gay but a little effem...........

That is the mot rediculous comment ever :eek:

Think about what you said. Funnily enough, we can actually dislike gays for many different reasons, like straight people can dislike straight people. It's called human nature. It doesnt prevent equallity.

And it's called a "type". If I'm not attracted to camp men, thats fair enough. It's like straight men arent attracted to a certain type of woman. It's not uncommon.

Tricity Bendix

oisindoyle wrote: »

It seems to me that a number of posters here who "hate" effem guys and only wish to meet "straight" acting guys have huge internalised homophobia.
Gay guys come in all shapes and sizes ,from all walks of life,rich poor,fat thin, effem,non efffem.
What hope have gay guys wanting equality,when other gay guys dont like other guys who are gay but a little effem...........

Meh. People can dislike a gay person without it being due to homophobia. Kinda the same way a straight guy mightn't like ditsy airheads, or brash country girls, or redheads, or any number of other traits. Doesn't mean it's discrimination.

LegacyUser

b.ie curious wrote: »

....Kinda the same way a straight guy mightn't like ditsy airheads, or brash country girls, or redheads, or any number of other traits. Doesn't mean it's discrimination.

bit off point but -
Not liking redheads IS discrimination. Derogatory references to people with red hair are a form of bigotry.

In case you do not understand....
"A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry is the corresponding attitude or mindset"....courtesy of google.
I thank you.

And I ain't no ginger either.

oisindoyle

Murder.1 wrote: »

That is the mot rediculous comment ever :eek:

Think about what you said. Funnily enough, we can actually dislike gays for many different reasons, like straight people can dislike straight people. It's called human nature. It doesnt prevent equallity.

And it's called a "type". If I'm not attracted to camp men, thats fair enough. It's like straight men arent attracted to a certain type of woman. It's not uncommon.

I have thought about what I said thats why I typed it.The OP didnt like effem gay guys and by his inference his dislike of effem gay guys is as much anti gay as a straight person dislikes gay guys in general....
Live and let live I say ,so what if a guy is effem or straight "acting",though have yet to meet one who actually acts..Its a silly comment

shoegirl

Unregistered wrote: »

This may seem like a strange scenario, but I thought I'd put it out there to see if anyone else is in the same situation? Just for context: I'm a 24yr old guy and I've been openly gay with my family and closest friends for the last 2years I'd say. People don't seem to think, or assume I'm gay on meeting me, because I'm not effeminate and don't portray the overt stereotypes often associated with gay men.

Not strange at all. One of the side effects of the "scene" is that stereotypes become self-fulfilling as diversity can easily become broken down as people start to conform to what is a "norm." This often can result in a seeming over dominance of very effeminate guys and butch lesbians. The culture is very powerful, especially in smaller places with fewer people.

Not fulfilling the stereotype can lead you into a very uncomfortable position with the conformers....they frequently don't tolerate long term individuality very well in my own experience. But the plus side of this I've found is not only a much better acceptance from straight friends and colleagues, who find it easier to relate to somebody less stereotyped, but also people from outside the traditional "scene" (and this includes people who've been driven away from or outright excluded from that scene - they DO exist!) who are reassured about meeting somebody who is "just themselves" and not confirming to a camp/butch stereotype in order to fit in.

I think the "straight acting" thing gets short shrift because sometimes its just as "false" as the camp stereotype and some people incorrectly read it as a negative judgement (i.e. the "internalized homophobia" commens, which to be honest, really make me question the intentions of the commentator). But I think also a lot of the stereotyping is a means of self-identification, which I think is particularly true in my experience of gay women, as a way of by-passing the problem of "invisibility." Of course, what is becoming increasingly obvious, especially since the advent of civil marriage/civil partnership, is that most people who are gay are just like anybody else. I'm not even sure though, if the more radical gay activists are 100% confortable with that.

hot2def

I'm a bisexual female, and have no sexual interest in butch lesbians. none.


Its just a matter of your personal tastes.

duffster808

I only read the original post here cause it'd take ****in ages t read all of these... but yeah i completely see where ur man is comin from. to me personally there is nothin attractive about guys that act like girls. I can't stand loud or camp guys or guys that act like divas/drama queens. Even physically there body which is often very slim and unbuilt is unattractive. there overdone hair and dress sense is a big turn off.

I tend to generaly be attracted t lads like myself. I'm not mad into my appearance, (obviously eat good, work out, wash myself, brush my teeth, wear clean clothes etc. lol) but i would never spend more than two seconds on my hair.. or pickin out me clothes (normally jeans/trackies nd a tshirt or hoodie or whatver).

I'd even take he annoyance a step further. Another thing that wrecks me head is when lads wave the fact that they're gay in everyone's face.. and make out like the whole world is homophobic nd they have a constant battle t rise above it. biggest load of b*ll*x.

I also find that gays on the more gay-end of the scale tend to be very self-centred, shallow, spoiled, materialistic and vain.. and somehow think that being a bitch or bitchy is glamorous or something. For me these are the worst qualities in the world that i guy can have and just adds to the turn off.

(above just my opinion and experience, no offence to anyone)

UU

oisindoyle wrote: »

It seems to me that a number of posters here who "hate" effem guys and only wish to meet "straight" acting guys have huge internalised homophobia.
Gay guys come in all shapes and sizes ,from all walks of life,rich poor,fat thin, effem,non efffem.
What hope have gay guys wanting equality,when other gay guys dont like other guys who are gay but a little effem...........

Hey there,

I would be described as "camp" although I dislike that word due to it being used in a very derogatory fashion. I prefer flamboyant. Effeminate is awkward too because although flamboyant gays often portray "socially feminine traits", some peopl may also take this to view them as less than other guys which just ridiculous. I am just as much a man as my straight male friend or non-flam gay male. Just because my nature and personality isn't the stereotypical masculine way and I go against the way society dictates roles of men and women that doesn't mean I'm less of a guy. But to create this sort of dualism is not a good thing. As you said all gay guys come in different shapes and sizes like straight people do and that's true. Some gays might be seen as more flamboyant than others some a little bit.

But I don't think in this thread at least there's an "anti-camp gay" thing going on. It's a matter of sexual preference and that is subjective. If somebody isn't attracted to flamboyant guys, that doesn't imply they "hate" them. I know masculine like gay guys who are into the more masculine type guy but have dozens of gay friends who are flamboyant. I also know some who know have an issue with flamboyant guys and I have been disgusted by the ignorance and lack of respect. Myself, if I like another guy i like him. He may be flamboyant or masculine like I have had boyfriends of many different types. I just don't find myself attracted to any specific type. Everyone is different and has a different personality and traits. No two flamboyant guys are the same as each other. Sometimes, one just needs to look past these labels.

Also this whole form of dualism is also in issue within the lesbian community between the "butch" types and the "lipstick" types. Again labels. I have lesbian friends of different degrees, some are more feminine than others, some aren't. Again, that can be a matter of sexual preference.

Nobody should put themselves in a box and say "I'm only attracted to X, Y and Z". You should leave room at least for the possibility that you may be attracted somebody you wouldn't expect to be attracted to. you may say you only like more masculine guys and that's fair enough, that's who you generally are attracted to but you should not rule out the possibility that you could be attracted to a flamboyant guy. It's all a matter of looking past labels and outside the box!

duffster808

In my experience anyway there is LOADS of straight-actin gays out there.

UU

duffster808 wrote: »

I only read the original post here cause it'd take ****in ages t read all of these... but yeah i completely see where ur man is comin from. to me personally there is nothin attractive about guys that act like girls. I can't stand loud or camp guys or guys that act like divas/drama queens. Even physically there body which is often very slim and unbuilt is unattractive. there overdone hair and dress sense is a big turn off.

I tend to generaly be attracted t lads like myself. I'm not mad into my appearance, (obviously eat good, work out, wash myself, brush my teeth, wear clean clothes etc. lol) but i would never spend more than two seconds on my hair.. or pickin out me clothes (normally jeans/trackies nd a tshirt or hoodie or whatver).

I'd even take he annoyance a step further. Another thing that wrecks me head is when lads wave the fact that they're gay in everyone's face.. and make out like the whole world is homophobic nd they have a constant battle t rise above it. biggest load of b*ll*x.

I also find that gays on the more gay-end of the scale tend to be very self-centred, shallow, spoiled, materialistic and vain.. and somehow think that being a bitch or bitchy is glamorous or something. For me these are the worst qualities in the world that i guy can have and just adds to the turn off.

(above just my opinion and experience, no offence to anyone)

Ok I understand where you're coming from but I don't agree with everything you say. If you're not into flamboyant types, then fair enough that's your sexual preference. I also find the over the top guys to be equally annoying. Anyone over the top annoys me. I am flamboyant but I don't go waving my arms in the air that I'm gay and I don't scream on the top of my voice and shrilling and stuff like that. I am slim and unbuilt and I like colourful clothes and that's my personal traits.

But the minute you judge the gay on the more gay end of the scale and attribute characteristics, you're immediately stereotyping! I know some masculine gays who are "very self-centred, shallow, spoiled, materialistic and vain." also. Yet To say that all flam types are like that is totally putting them all into a box and saying that are like this. You don't know every flam type as you don't know every person. On the scene there is a certain degree of over-the-topness. I've seen the most seemingly masculine gay turn into a queen and that's being fake. We all act to a certain degree and change depending on the situation without consciously thinking of it.

duffster808

UU i appreciate your point of view and don't mean to offend you. But I don't understand why everybody has such a problem with stereotypes. The reality is that a lot of them are very true. That's why they exist. They didn't come out of nowhere. I think everyone needs to stop viewing stereotyping as politically incorrect. I never said that ALL straight-acting gay men are kind, honest, brave, selfless and loyal... and that ALL effeminate gay men have binary opposite characteristics. Of course they don't. I know straight acting gays that have poor personalities and effeminate gays that are very honest, loyal and decent. But whether it's politically correct to say it or not, selfish, materialistic, vain and bitchy traits are found a lot more in lads that are more "gay" (for lack of a better word) than in lads that are less "gay".

Am I generalising? Yes. In doing so mate i'm not boxing EVERYONE i'm talking about into one set behavioural pattern... just drawing obvious links between personalities, tendencies and characteristics. Simple as, my amigo :cool:.

Boston

duffster808 wrote: »

UU i appreciate your point of view and don't mean to offend you. But I don't understand why everybody has such a problem with stereotypes. The reality is that a lot of them are very true. That's why they exist. They didn't come out of nowhere. I think everyone needs to stop viewing stereotyping as politically incorrect. I never said that ALL straight-acting gay men are kind, honest, brave, selfless and loyal... and that ALL effeminate gay men have binary opposite characteristics. Of course they don't. I know straight acting gays that have poor personalities and effeminate gays that are very honest, loyal and decent. But whether it's politically correct to say it or not, selfish, materialistic, vain and bitchy traits are found a lot more in lads that are more "gay" (for lack of a better word) than in lads that are less "gay".

Am I generalising? Yes. In doing so mate i'm not boxing EVERYONE i'm talking about into one set behavioural pattern... just drawing obvious links between personalities, tendencies and characteristics. Simple as, my amigo :cool:.

Stereotypes are a problem because they enforce the idea that if you X you have to act a certain way. OF course there's always some truth in a stereotype but generally they never apply to the majority but rather the most noticeable minority of a group of people. I've met a lot of gay/bi people and I've yet to meet a single person who completely fitted the stereotype. Some had attributes like it, most didn't resemble it at all.

I should add you're lumping a lot of things together in your post, Diva, drama queen, effeminate, camp, fashion concious and the like. These are all very different things. In general women don't behave like Divas and bitchy drama queens, so that's not an effeminate trait. Femininity would more relate to the physical structure and/or appearance of a person. This again is very different to being camp. I don't find femininity in a male attractive at all at all, while campness simply isn't a factor. Again being camp does not make you a bitchy drama queen either.

Final point, about the rubbing homosexuality in peoples faces. When in a relationship I behave like your average person does, I hold hands walking down the street I kiss my partner publically. To some this behaviour is rubbing homosexuality in peoples faces, to me its acting normal. Sometimes just being who you are is going to offend other people.

oisindoyle

Boston wrote: »

.

.

Final point, about the rubbing homosexuality in peoples faces. When in a relationship I behave like your average person does, I hold hands walking down the street I kiss my partner publically. To some this behaviour is rubbing homosexuality in peoples faces, to me its acting normal. Sometimes just being who you are is going to offend other people.

Well done you .Yes you're right to do what the average person does ,hold hands kiss ect ect..
Gay guys who as you said have a problem with "rubbing homosexuality in peoples faces" ect have a problem ,,WITH THEMSELVES.In other words its a type of selfloathing and not fully accepting themselves as being gay.

hot2def

oisindoyle wrote: »

Well done you .Yes you're right to do what the average person does ,hold hands kiss ect ect..
Gay guys who as you said have a problem with "rubbing homosexuality in peoples faces" ect have a problem ,,WITH THEMSELVES.In other words its a type of selfloathing and not fully accepting themselves as being gay.

b0ll0x.


with this "I know you are but what am I" type argument, no gay person can have a remotely conservative opinion.

its ok for other gay/bisexual people to not feel like you do, and still "accept themselves". that is ridiculously patronising.

Tricity Bendix

Unregistered wrote: »

bit off point but -
Not liking redheads IS discrimination. Derogatory references to people with red hair are a form of bigotry.

In case you do not understand....
"A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry is the corresponding attitude or mindset"....courtesy of google.
I thank you.

And I ain't no ginger either.

Not liking redheads is not discrimination (in the negative sense of the word) and is certainly not bigotted. It is a preference. Not being attracted to someone (i.e. "not liking them") is a world away from making "derogatory references" about them or being intolerant of them.

oisindoyle

hot2def wrote: »

b0ll0x.


with this "I know you are but what am I" type argument, no gay person can have a remotely conservative opinion.

its ok for other gay/bisexual people to not feel like you do, and still "accept themselves". that is ridiculously patronising.

Care to engage in a civil more cohesive manner,without the need to use foul language?

duffster808

hot2def wrote: »

b0ll0x.

with this "I know you are but what am I" type argument, no gay person can have a remotely conservative opinion.
its ok for other gay/bisexual people to not feel like you do, and still "accept themselves". that is ridiculously patronising.

hot2def you are completely right. That is a load of bollox. Wtf is he on about? I have self-loathing issues? He is so far up his own ass. This is about my generalisin post, which was mega misinterpreted and takin out of context.
And the only reason I don't go around holdin hands and kissin and tellin a fella I love him in public is because i live in Dublin, in the real world and know for a fact that you're bound to f***in get hopped on or beat or knifed my some ignorant scumbag if you do that. Not because i have deep psychological "self-loathing issues". Oisin mate, what planet are you livin on? lol I mean, knackers don't care if you've accepted your true inner sexuality or not haha they will just start on you regardless if you go around like that with a lad, i'm not sayin that's how things should be but i'm smart enough to know that that's how they are... and i'm not gonna put meself (or my partner) in danger to prove a point.

duffster808

And another thing Oisin that I don't wanna let go... The decision to not display a relationship in public is a choice t be made by a couple. It is totally up to them, so I don't know where you're gettin off judgin people and assuming they have inner self-loathing issues if they choose not to display affection in public. The are loads of logical and practical reasons not to... one or both may not be out, one or both may not be comfortable and it is definitely not physically safe to do it.

When I talk about rubbing that fact that you're gay in someone's face i'm talking about lads that think that the fact that they're gay is something that's very important for people to know... I'll do what I want provided it's safe, honest and i'm not hurting anyone... but i would never go out of my way to let people know I'm gay.

I have nothing against people who show gay affection in public, but it's a very naive, dangerous and risky thing to do. And I would still love my partner the same whether I do it or not... so why put the two of us in danger?

Boston

Your generalisations post suggested that you had a problem with other LGB people showing public signs of affection and/or sexuality. You can't complain about being misinterpreted If you're going to make broad sweeping statements about others.

I to live in Dublin, its far from certain that you will get hopped on for holding hands with another guy. You seem to thing that the only reason two guys would do this is to prove a point, (an accusation I've heard often) but nothing could be further from the truth. The absolute vast majority of people will be oblivious to two guys walking around Dublin hand in hand. The few that have a problem may give you a dirty look or mutter a crude comment but why should that stop you. Saying its dangerous is just a cop out. I think its a sad thing when I met proud, determined and intelligent people too afraid to live their life freely and openly.

Btw there's a way of behaving here. You don't call a post a load of bollix and you don't tell a user he has his head in his ass.

Goodshape

Couples hold hands and kiss each other hello, goodbuy and 'just because' all the time. I've never felt the need to be any different with my boyfriend and, I'm pleased to say, I don't think I've ever gotten anything more offensive than a curious glance from passers by in Dublin. Even that's fairly rare tbh. Most people don't seem to give a ****.

And even if that were to happen, I'd prefer to put up with the occasional muppet saying something nasty than to live in fear of showing affection.

duffster808

Boston wrote: »

Your generalisations post suggested that you had a problem with other LGB people showing public signs of affection and/or sexuality. You can't complain about being misinterpreted If you're going to make broad sweeping statements about others.

I to live in Dublin, its far from certain that you will get hopped on for holding hands with another guy. You seem to thing that the only reason two guys would do this is to prove a point, (an accusation I've heard often) but nothing could be further from the truth. The absolute vast majority of people will be oblivious to two guys walking around Dublin hand in hand. The few that have a problem may give you a dirty look or mutter a crude comment but why should that stop you. Saying its dangerous is just a cop out. I think its a sad thing when I met proud, determined and intelligent people too afraid to live their life freely and openly.

Btw there's a way of behaving here. You don't call a post a load of bollix and you don't tell a user he has his head in his ass.

Well then what's he at sayin i have self loathing issues. if you're gonna say that that u gotta be prepared t take somethin back.

I never once directly referred to any problem with affection in my post. That was inferred by whoever quoted me.

You all seem very sheltered if you think that about dublin. It wouldn't happen every day but it'd happen. Have you ever gotten a nitelink for f**K sake? It's a dangerous thing to do to hold hands and kiss a guy out in the open at 3am in dublin city.. and if you think it's not then mate you're just naive. I don't give a f**k if you do it or not... good luck to ya. But how dare you get up on some sheltered poncy high horse and criticise other people who don't do it? Mate that is well out of order.

Goodshape

duffster808 wrote: »

You all seem very sheltered if you think that about dublin. It wouldn't happen every day but it'd happen. Have you ever gotten a nitelink for f**K sake? It's a dangerous thing to do to hold hands and kiss a guy out in the open at 3am in dublin city..

I like to play that one by ear tbh. There's always going to be times when you'd be better off not even making eye contact with the random drunkin scumbag walking towards you, never mind letting him see you show affection to anyone (be it girlfriend or boyfriend) but the 3am / nightlink home on a Friday night scenario is a bit selective. I don't know anyone who'd actively choose to be out and about and interacting with people on the street at those times, gay or straight.

Reflector

duffster808 wrote: »

Oisin mate, what planet are you livin on? lol I mean, knackers don't care if you've accepted your true inner sexuality or not haha they will just start on you regardless if you go around like that with a lad, i'm not sayin that's how things should be but i'm smart enough to know that that's how they are... and i'm not gonna put meself (or my partner) in danger to prove a point.

Have to agree here, often I will kiss a guy in public but you always need to be cautious, if the situation seems dangerous or there are scummers aplenty then best just wait until later. I'm not a huge fan of wearing the face off people in public anyway. straight people look a bit absurd also.
Also this thread started as a not fancying gay guys, well I do fancy gay guys but have to admit I am more attracted to guys who have masculine qualities but not always. A great sense of humour goes a long way and I sure have been with lots of effeminate guys who were great. It's all just a preference thing, I try not to waste time falling for straight guys though it's always annoying.

oisindoyle

Boston wrote: »

Your generalisations post suggested that you had a problem with other LGB people showing public signs of affection and/or sexuality. You can't complain about being misinterpreted If you're going to make broad sweeping statements about others.

I to live in Dublin, its far from certain that you will get hopped on for holding hands with another guy. You seem to thing that the only reason two guys would do this is to prove a point, (an accusation I've heard often) but nothing could be further from the truth. The absolute vast majority of people will be oblivious to two guys walking around Dublin hand in hand. The few that have a problem may give you a dirty look or mutter a crude comment but why should that stop you. Saying its dangerous is just a cop out. I think its a sad thing when I met proud, determined and intelligent people too afraid to live their life freely and openly.

Btw there's a way of behaving here. You don't call a post a load of bollix and you don't tell a user he has his head in his ass.

Well said.I agree with everything you say.

duffster808

If nothin has ever happened to you then you're just lucky. The reality is that it is dangerous. You say my scenario is selective, but by your logic mate that shouldn't matter.

I know a lad who got stabbed for being gay, not even kissin a lad in public... just cause a bunch of knackers heard that he was gay. Two other lads I know got there heads kicked in for holdin hands in public, and that was in a suburb not even city centre. It even happened to me before, so lads shut up about stuff that you don't know what you're talkin about. It could hit a sensitive spot with some people... and your experience is very narrow.

I dunno where you hold hands mate but it must be a very good area. And like I said before, if you have to be more selective about the time and place than straight people then you are just like people who don't do it at all, cause it's for the same reason -fear, so stop being so hipocritical.

duffster808

Reflector wrote: »

Have to agree here, often I will kiss a guy in public but you always need to be cautious, if the situation seems dangerous or there are scummers aplenty then best just wait until later. I'm not a huge fan of wearing the face off people in public anyway. straight people look a bit absurd also.
Also this thread started as a not fancying gay guys, well I do fancy gay guys but have to admit I am more attracted to guys who have masculine qualities but not always. A great sense of humour goes a long way and I sure have been with lots of effeminate guys who were great. It's all just a preference thing, I try not to waste time falling for straight guys though it's always annoying.

have to agree, we went bit of the topic here. my earlier posts were related to the OP so check them out but all this ****e bout diss'n on people who dont show affection in public really got me wound up.

hot2def

oisindoyle wrote: »

Care to engage in a civil more cohesive manner,without the need to use foul language?

no, the word conveyed what I was going for, thank you.


I appreciate that coversation should be civil, but I don't think accusing other people of having self-loathing issues because they don't see life like you do is particularly civil.

I don't feel like being at the recieving end of attention fron strangers in the street, good or bad. So I am not going to kiss my girlfriend. Its nothing to do with self loathing.

I am sick to the back teeth of this implication that you some how owe it to the "community" to be out in public, and that you are letting the side down if you ever suggest that tact, caution or compromise is a good idea.

Goodshape

hot2def wrote: »

I am sick to the back teeth of this implication that you some how owe it to the "community" to be out in public, and that you are letting the side down if you ever suggest that tact, caution or compromise is a good idea.

It's not exactly the fast track to acceptance and equal rights though, is it?

Some people just don't dig public displays of affection. Fine. No problem. I know plenty of straight people who aren't bothered with it either.

But you shouldn't let fear make those decisions for you. That's just no way to live, imo.

duffster808 wrote:

if you have to be more selective about the time and place than straight people then you are just like people who don't do it at all, cause it's for the same reason -fear, so stop being so hipocritical.

When you're talking about 3am on Friday night in Dublin city centre, I'd be fairly selective about anything I do tbh. That's just common sense, nothing to do with being gay.

But in and around the city on a normal day? I'll be damned if I'm going to let the slight possibility that someone somewhere might be a narrow-minded bigot stop me from doing what every normal person does with their loved one.

hot2def

Goodshape wrote: »

It's not exactly the fast track to acceptance and equal rights though, is it?



.

My relationship is *not* about fastracking acceptance and equal rights.

Boston

duffster808 wrote: »

You all seem very sheltered if you think that about dublin. It wouldn't happen every day but it'd happen. Have you ever gotten a nitelink for f**K sake? It's a dangerous thing to do to hold hands and kiss a guy out in the open at 3am in dublin city.. and if you think it's not then mate you're just naive. I don't give a f**k if you do it or not... good luck to ya. But how dare you get up on some sheltered poncy high horse and criticise other people who don't do it? Mate that is well out of order.

No body criticised anyone for not showing signs of affection in public. For some people it simply isn't something they are interested in doing. I said it was sad that people would let fear stop them being free and open, and it is saddening. Of course I know the dangers I've been out for 5 years now and there's been times when I've received some very strong negative reactions to holding hands/kissing publicly. But if I stop living my life the way I want, that will do more damage to me then any snear or nasty comment.

Goodshape wrote: »

I like to play that one by ear tbh. There's always going to be times when you'd be better off not even making eye contact with the random drunkin scumbag walking towards you, never mind letting him see you show affection to anyone (be it girlfriend or boyfriend) but the 3am / nightlink home on a Friday night scenario is a bit selective. I don't know anyone who'd actively choose to be out and about and interacting with people on the street at those times, gay or straight.

duffster808 wrote: »

I dunno where you hold hands mate but it must be a very good area. And like I said before, if you have to be more selective about the time and place than straight people then you are just like people who don't do it at all, cause it's for the same reason -fear, so stop being so hipocritical.

I'm not going to walk into the local skin head pub and start making out in front of the head Nazi. The problem is when you allow irrational fear stop you. You shouldn't let the idea that its not a great idea to score while surrounded by drunks on a bus at night stop you holding hands while walking to shops. Like anything you have to be sensible about what the real risks are.

Wrt the examples you gave of people being attacked, I could match them easily. A guy I went to school with was attacked and cut up by a gang of skin heads for being black in the wrong place. Should he live in constant fear of showing his skin colour around town? Go back a few years it wouldn't be that shocking to hear of someone getting beaten for being english/ from the country in certain parts of Dublin, what are these people to do? You're not talking to someone whose experience of Dublin is narrow, I was born and raised in the inner city and I'm far more "street smart" then the average person.

hot2def: The dutty to the community. Meh. Hands up who thinks theres an actual LGBT community in Ireland.