What do you think of Vigilantes?

Riddle101

I watch/read Batman and i think, there's a man we need here. A man who puts fear into criminals, a man who needs no guns to fight crime and someone who is there for the common man. The more i read about crime in Ireland, the more i think of Gotham City. Now i know Batman is made up and the idea of a masked vigilante who prowls the city of Dublin with a utility belt full of little gadgets like a batarang is laughable. Again i would say it is more harder then it looks on TV, but at the same time I think it is possible to have someone like that.

But anyway, due to vigilante's unwillingness to abide and work with the law, they have been ruled against the law, and i would say we're told that they are bad guys. But what do you think of Vigilantes. Do you wish we had some here? or do you think they are just as bad as the criminals?

I for one am for vigilantism but i'm sure most of you think i'm a quak so i'll stop here

311

Everyone has a price ,it's just a matter of time.

4zn76tysfajdxp

Riddle101 wrote: »

Now i know Batman is made up

Excuse me?

Cokehead Mother

I think vigilantes are great if they're out stopping diabolical superhumans intent on destroying the free world.

I don't really approve of the kind of vigilantes that go after regular murderers/rapists/whatever. They just strike me as cúnts. I'm sure Batman hates them too.

Red Hand

I think that we should get a group of people together, get some baseball bats and sort 'em out!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Karl Hungus

Batman is one thing, he's a genius. But people are stupid the world over, thick as two sods of turf ****heads are the majority. People who buy the crazy frog single.

Remember the people who took the law into their own hands and couldn't tell the difference between a Pediatrician and a Pedophile? Yeah, that's what we get with vigilantes in the real world, stupid as hell peons without even the basic grasp of language.

If there were people like Bruce Wayne in the real world, I'd be all for it. But I don't think there are.

Fizman

OP I'm currently in the process of founding the SSVGL* (Super Secret Vigilante Group of Limerick).

I'll PM you the application form when we're ready to get started.


*name pending

4zn76tysfajdxp

Karl Hungus wrote: »

Remember the people who took the law into their own hands and couldn't tell the difference between a Pediatrician and a Pedophile?

Yes.

Earthhorse

Riddle101 wrote: »

Now i know Batman is made up

Elliana Zealous Temperance wrote: »

Excuse me?

He must be confusing him with the Joker.

Riddle101

Fizman wrote: »

OP I'm currently in the process of founding the SSVGL* (Super Secret Vigilante Group of Limerick).

I'll PM you the application form when we're ready to get started.


*name pending

That would be cool, but i think i should stay here in Dublin and found SSVGD, that way we can hit organised crime on two fronts

Feelgood

If I won the lottery I would build a bat cave alright, wouldn't really want to be batman though. Would just like to have a bat cave there to annoy the lads.

"My missus has 34DD titties"

"Yeah well fcuk you buddy, I've got my own bat cave" type scenario.

phenomenon

I think what you're looking for is this guy:

"Someday a real rain will come and wash all this scum off the streets..."

Sharpshooter

The justice system in this country doesn't seem to be working , but No , I wouldn't like to see vigilantes take the law into their own hands.
It would turn into mob rule , and that won't work any better than what we have now.
I can't see where the vigilantes would draw the line , and in a case of mistaken identity , what chance would an innocent person have?

/note , I am crap at serious posts.:o

4zn76tysfajdxp

sharpshooterH wrote: »

/note , I am crap at serious posts.:o

You wouldn't be if you did it more often, you just need to up the ante.

Holsten

I think that if the Gardai have their hands tied so much as they do, and the Judges are handing out Mickey Mouse sentences, Vigilantism wouldnt be such a bad idea.

Local scummer gets his legs broke instead of a court appearance and wasting Garda time... sounds good to me.

[Jackass]

If justice needs to be served, then we can't always rely on the powers that be. The problem with vigilantes is that you can't rely how just or thought through it is.

But for example, if I knew there was a pedo or rapist or drug dealer or some sh*t in the area who got off cause of "lack of evidence" or some sh*t, but it's common knowledge that some sh*t went down, I would have no problem with the lad been given the ultimate hiding of his life and being told that if he didn't disapear he'd be made disapear.

The law works, but sometimes it fails through technicalitys, then it's up to the people. Sort it out. Sometimes people revolt when the government / police fu*k up (Greece anyone?), same thing applys when the system fails, people can't be expected to accept whats wrong. The problem is though it can get out of hand, should only be applied in the most clear cut and undoubtable scenarios, if the public takes everything into their own hands then just as much injustice and anorchy ensues...

Use as last resort when everything else fails...

120_Minutes

[Jackass] wrote: »

If justice needs to be served, then we can't always rely on the powers that be. The problem with vigilantes is that you can't rely how just or thought through it is.

But for example, if I knew there was a pedo or rapist or drug dealer or some sh*t in the area who got off cause of "lack of evidence" or some sh*t, but it's common knowledge that some sh*t went down, I would have no problem with the lad been given the ultimate hiding of his life and being told that if he didn't disapear he'd be made disapear.

The law works, but sometimes it fails through technicalitys, then it's up to the people. Sort it out. Sometimes people revolt when the government / police fu*k up (Greece anyone?), same thing applys when the system fails, people can't be expected to accept whats wrong. The problem is though it can get out of hand, should only be applied in the most clear cut and undoubtable scenarios, if the public takes everything into their own hands then just as much injustice and anorchy ensues...

Use as last resort when everything else fails...

where is this utopia of which you speak?

Sharpshooter

Elliana Zealous Temperance wrote: »

You wouldn't be if you did it more often, you just need to up the ante.

How very vigilant of you , batman.

1979Bob

They work. You cant rob someone if you have a broken leg.
But for a more serious answer the more the police fail to act on crime and the more the courts fail to impose heavy sentences for crimes the more we will see of vigilantes.

stovelid

Don't agree with them in general, but in some cases where there is a policing failure or vacuum, I can understand when a community decide to regulate themselves now and then.

The problem, I guess, is that it can sometimes get out of hand.

gurramok

Gardai do not like vigilantes, the sole reason is that they show how bad the gardai are at in their jobs.
Do you notice how vigilantes really only occur in downmarket areas as the police force are ineffective there?

thelordofcheese

[Jackass] wrote: »

If justice needs to be served, then we can't always rely on the powers that be. The problem with vigilantes is that you can't rely how just or thought through it is.

But for example, if I knew there was a pedo or rapist or drug dealer or some sh*t in the area who got off cause of "lack of evidence" or some sh*t, but it's common knowledge that some sh*t went down, I would have no problem with the lad been given the ultimate hiding of his life and being told that if he didn't disapear he'd be made disapear.

Ahh yes, the good old court of public opinion. What a crock of shit.

You see, this is why vigilantes make zero sense. They don't need all those pesky things like evidence and due process and trials. They can just decide that because "everyone" thinks something it's therefore true.

They're no better than the "scum" they're supposed to be protecting against.

Dudess

Vigilantes are likely to turn into a bunch of thugs themselves so no... not a good thing.

Steve

Ireland already has a self appointed vigilante group.

They are (were) on the news every day for punishment beatings and kneecappings.

Good luck to you trying to get them to swap the combats and balaclava's for rubber suits and capes.:rolleyes:

thetyreman

gurramok wrote: »

Gardai do not like vigilantes, the sole reason is that they show how bad the gardai are at in their jobs.
Do you notice how vigilantes really only occur in downmarket areas as the police force are ineffective there?

The gardai PROBABLY are doing a ok job with regard catchingb the scum,its the judges/courts that are a discrace with the mickey mouse sentences they are handing out,it must be very disheartining for the guards to watch this.

I might add if any scumbag/knacker/paedo/junkie did anything to me or mine,he wouldnt get as far as court to stick his two fingers up at the so called justice system...

311

thetyreman wrote: »

The gardai PROBABLY are doing a ok job with regard catchingb the scum,its the judges/courts that are a discrace with the mickey mouse sentences they are handing out,it must be very disheartining for the guards to watch this.

I might add if any scumbag/knacker/paedo/junkie did anything to me or mine,he wouldnt get as far as court to stick his two fingers up at the so called justice system...

Was in college with a bloke who attacked a guy who broke into his house in finglas/Dublin.
He was awaiting trial for attacking the bloke ,who he left lying on the ground outside his home.

Sharpshooter

SteveC wrote: »

Ireland already has a self appointed vigilante group.

They are (were) on the news every day for punishment beatings and kneecappings.

Good luck to you trying to get them to swap the combats and balaclava's for rubber suits and capes.:rolleyes:

Ah yeah , we know that SteveC , but the thread is about what we think of them.
I Really Am seeing your point though.

gurramok

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Ahh yes, the good old court of public opinion. What a crock of shit.

You see, this is why vigilantes make zero sense. They don't need all those pesky things like evidence and due process and trials. They can just decide that because "everyone" thinks something it's therefore true.

They're no better than the "scum" they're supposed to be protecting against.

Scenario.

You live in a downtrodden area with serious anti-social disorder where your home and your kids are attacked on a daily basis. You name it, windows being bricked in, your car constantly damaged, you cannot sleep at night due to harassment, your kids being physically attacked on the street where fear is in their eyes.

You call the gards and after about 20 tries, they catch a couple of the perpetrators and the courts let them go constantly because they are too young.

You have options. Option 1 is to move out but you need someone to buy your house. Option 2 is a batch of vigilantes formed from a few neighbours who take the law into their own hands to protect their homes from scum as the justice/policing system has failed. Option 3 is continue as your are and rely on justice being served legally in time.

What do you do?

Holsten

311 wrote: »

Was in college with a bloke who attacked a guy who broke into his house in finglas/Dublin.
He was awaiting trial for attacking the bloke ,who he left lying on the ground outside his home.

He should have finished the job.

thetyreman

311 wrote: »

Was in college with a bloke who attacked a guy who broke into his house in finglas/Dublin.
He was awaiting trial for attacking the bloke ,who he left lying on the ground outside his home.

AND?

AnonoBoy

Have we learned nothing from Keanu Reeves movies at all?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090775/

311

Holsten wrote: »

He should have finished the job.

Agreed ,but the guy was really sound and quiet ,the last thing you would expect was he would be in court for something.

Fair play to him.

311

thetyreman wrote: »

AND?

Finished college before the case and the guy wasn't someone who bragged about things.

gurramok

SteveC wrote: »

Ireland already has a self appointed vigilante group.

They are (were) on the news every day for punishment beatings and kneecappings.

Good luck to you trying to get them to swap the combats and balaclava's for rubber suits and capes.:rolleyes:

These?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9NSwOlrhoI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9NSwOlrhoI

Steve

sharpshooterH wrote: »

I Really Am seeing your point though.

I like what you did there..:D

gurramok wrote: »

Scenario.

You live in a downtrodden area with serious anti-social disorder where your home and your kids are attacked on a daily basis. You name it, windows being bricked in, your car constantly damaged, you cannot sleep at night due to harassment, your kids being physically attacked on the street where fear is in their eyes.

You call the gards and after about 20 tries, they catch a couple of the perpetrators and the courts let them go constantly because they are too young.

You have options. Option 1 is to move out but you need someone to buy your house. Option 2 is a batch of vigilantes formed from a few neighbours who take the law into their own hands to protect their homes from scum as the justice/policing system has failed. Option 3 is continue as your are and rely on justice being served legally in time.

What do you do?

I would prefer to have the right to shoot the bastards.

To argue your point: how would you like to be wrongly on the receiving end of 'vigilante justice' say in a case of mistaken identity? Would you not prefer your right to a fair trial?

History has proven that witch hunts don't work, however I agree that certain scumbags would be known by the local community and should be dealt with but at what point should we give up our freedom in favour of this?

Steve

gurramok wrote: »

These?

No, not specifically. I doubt they are operating without the approval of who I was thinking of.

The_Minister

I'd like to remind everyone that we already had vigilantes in this country. They went around beating drug dealers, and beat a few innocent people to within an inch of their lives.
Why?
Because if you know that people are beating up people on rumour, it's easy to put out the word on someone and have someone else do your work.
And once you have an organised group willing to deal out violent 'justice', then unless you have a very strong, centred leader, you have a recipe for murder.

Just think of it like this; would you give the powers of the vigilante to the Gardai?
Would you let them enter your house without a warrent?
Would you let them determine guilt without firm evidence or forensics, and deal out a potentially lethal beating?

Do you really think that a random group of self-selecting, violent men, operating without safeguards, without standards of evidence, without forensics, without any standards for witnesses, are better capable at determining guilt than a court with a judge and jury?
Do you think the dogs on the street are infallible?, and would you not fear the bang on the door if they determining what was acceptable and what wasn't?

[Jackass] wrote: »

The law works, but sometimes it fails through technicalitys, then it's up to the people. Sort it out.

The problem with that thinking is, if you let things pass, then they become acceptable.
Eg: A warrent is just a day out of date. If the judge allows that, then the warrents are extended by a day. After that, why not two days?

gurramok

SteveC wrote: »

I like what you did there..:D
To argue your point: how would you like to be wrongly on the receiving end of 'vigilante justice' say in a case of mistaken identity? Would you not prefer your right to a fair trial?

I doubt this has happened so often, margin of error being very low. We're talking about local people knowing what local people are up to.

SteveC wrote: »

History has proven that witch hunts don't work, however I agree that certain scumbags would be known by the local community and should be dealt with but at what point should we give up our freedom in favour of this?

Good question. Thats why its imperative that the justice system works to prevent to rise of vigilantes.
The way society is, don't be surprised if Guardian Angels New York style appeared on our streets.
Thats what i'd support. If however the gardai are so ineffective that the reporting by guardian angel style protectors of dodgy activity is ignored, its gives rise to mob rule and that i'd wouldn't blame badly affected communities resorting to.

Karl Hungus

I think people love the idea of the vigilante, we do hear of the criminals slipping through the cracks, people getting let off with slaps on the wrist, and in fiction this romanticized idea of justice being served has really taken wing. I think Alan Moore's Watchmen was the closest thing to the reality of a superhero like Batman, in that Rorschach was pretty much a demented psychopath.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UJz0O2NjOo

I think most people love the idea of Dexter too, but if someone did what he did in reality, you wouldn't find too many supporting his actions.

thelordofcheese

gurramok wrote: »

Scenario.

You live in a downtrodden area with serious anti-social disorder where your home and your kids are attacked on a daily basis. You name it, windows being bricked in, your car constantly damaged, you cannot sleep at night due to harassment, your kids being physically attacked on the street where fear is in their eyes.

You call the gards and after about 20 tries, they catch a couple of the perpetrators and the courts let them go constantly because they are too young.

You have options. Option 1 is to move out but you need someone to buy your house. Option 2 is a batch of vigilantes formed from a few neighbours who take the law into their own hands to protect their homes from scum as the justice/policing system has failed. Option 3 is continue as your are and rely on justice being served legally in time.

What do you do?

i choose 4:

4] i stop inventing clichéd scenarios where my point of view is hamfistedly painted as the one i want you to pick.

Davidius

I'm a master engineer, detective and scientist.

All I need is money and physical prowess and then I'll be Batman.

Oh and I need to be 6ft tall.

Takk

Kent: Mr. Simpson, how do you respond to the charges that petty
vandalism such as graffiti is down eighty percent, while heavy
sack-beatings are up a shocking nine hundred percent?

Homer: Aw, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent.
Forty percent of all people know that.

Kent: I see. Well, what do you say to the accusation that your group
has been causing more crimes than it's been preventing?

Homer: I]amused[/I Oh, Kent, I'd be lying if I said my men weren't
committing crimes.

Kent: I]pause[/I Well, touche'.

...

Steve

gurramok wrote: »

I doubt this has happened so often, margin of error being very low. We're talking about local people knowing what local people are up to.

How many times does it have to happen before it becomes wrong? Are you saying (to quote the Americans) there should be acceptable losses?

Good question. Thats why its imperative that the justice system works to prevent to rise of vigilantes.
The way society is, don't be surprised if Guardian Angels New York style appeared on our streets.
Thats what i'd support. If however the gardai are so ineffective that the reporting by guardian angel style protectors of dodgy activity is ignored, its gives rise to mob rule and that i'd wouldn't blame badly affected communities resorting to.

I don't know what the Guardian Angels do but a major problem here is people report stuff to the Guards and are then unwilling to follow it through as a witness in a court case.
We can't really blame the guards for not wanting to bring something to court that they know won't be convicted.

Sharpshooter

Karl Hungus wrote: »

I think people love the idea of the vigilante, we do hear of the criminals slipping through the cracks, people getting let off with slaps on the wrist, and in fiction this romanticized idea of justice being served has really taken wing. I think Alan Moore's Watchmen was the closest thing to the reality of a superhero like Batman, in that Rorschach was pretty much a demented psychopath.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UJz0O2NjOo

I think most people love the idea of Dexter too, but if someone did what he did in reality, you wouldn't find too many supporting his actions.

True , but then Dexter is romantisized to the hilt.

We the viewer can see why he does it , and the reason behind it.
He is never wrong, so he is right as far as the viewer is concerned.
It is a one sided view that gets represented to the viewer.
/ note , I love the programme , as it is not real life.

The_Minister

sharpshooterH wrote: »

True , but then Dexter is romantisized to the hilt.

We the viewer can see why he does it , and the reason behind it.
He is never wrong, so he is right as far as the viewer is concerned.
It is a one sided view that gets represented to the viewer.
/ note , I love the programme , as it is not real life.

You damn well better love it.
/Glances meaningfully to his profile bar.

gurramok

thelordofcheese wrote:

i stop inventing clichéd scenarios where my point of view is hamfistedly painted as the one i want you to pick.

No, its a real world scenario which affects countless families. We had one recently in East Wall, Dublin.

SteveC wrote: »

How many times does it have to happen before it becomes wrong? Are you saying (to quote the Americans) there should be acceptable losses?

Yes, there are acceptable losses. If the majority of cases are dealt with, then the overall justifies the means unfortunately.

SteveC wrote: »

I don't know what the Guardian Angels do but a major problem here is people report stuff to the Guards and are then unwilling to follow it through as a witness in a court case.
We can't really blame the guards for not wanting to bring something to court that they know won't be convicted.

What i'm getting at is as well as the lack of follow-up in court cases, in some areas you'd be lucky to see a garda appearing to your concerns within the hour and dealing with the issue.

Guess whats needed is an 80's style Mr Punisher, aka Dolph Lungren(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolph_Lundgren ) when the justice system fails

Sharpshooter

The_Minister wrote: »

You damn well better love it.
/Glances meaningfully to his profile bar.

/Glances down at her feet.

It's a bloody good series , imo.

The_Minister

gurramok wrote: »

Yes, there are acceptable losses. If the majority of cases are dealt with, then the overall justifies the means unfortunately.

Uh huh.
And if you are the poor soul whose head gets kicked in without justification?
Because the locals don't like you?
Maybe we should just run around scrawling the dragon's fang on people's doors?

How many permanently crippled innocents are acceptable to you?

The_Minister

sharpshooterH wrote: »

/Glances down at her feet.

It's a bloody good series , imo.

Good girl.

Sharpshooter

The_Minister wrote: »

Good girl.

Yes , Minister.

gurramok

The_Minister wrote: »

Uh huh.
And if you are the poor soul whose head gets kicked in without justification?
Because the locals don't like you?
Maybe we should just run around scrawling the dragon's fang on people's doors?

How many permanently crippled innocents are acceptable to you?

I'm not talking about whose likes and dislikes who in a neighbourhood. I'm talking about a known person who is disliked for his illegal activities by his law abiding neighbours where the justice system has failed to incarcerate this person away from that community.
Not talking about somebody who is disliked because of red hair but of constant drug-dealing to your kids for example
You have to live a community like that to know what its like to resort to vigilantes.