Working conditions in Irish hospitals

gerfinch

Hey,I found this guys blog
http://doctoryblog.wordpress.com/
A frightening overview of the working conditions in Irish hospitals from a doctors perspective. And I thought i had it bad.......... :eek:

jhegarty

gerfinch wrote: »

Hey,I found this guys blog

Funny that, with this post and your other ones on politics.ie been the other links on the entire internet for it.

gerfinch

theres more to the internet than google - found it on irishhealth.com. Just got out of hospital recently. Got great care by the exhausted docs there, want to help spread the word if i can.

jimmycrackcorm

Interesting blog. However I was asking a relative in hospital about the doctor on the ward and I was told that at least during the night they get to sleep in between ward calls. I'd be happy working 75+ hours per week and getting paid for it if I could sleep through a good few of them...

Not knocking the work they do but tell it as it is please!

eth0_

No you wouldn't. A snatched hour or two (if you're lucky!) of sleep is not 'quality sleep', in fact you'd most likely feel even worse after an hour of sleep having been awake 24 hours or more.

Nolanger

That article should be shown to Leaving Cert students.
Might bring the points for medicine down.

MagicMarker

Good article indeed.

Do primary school teachers really start off on 40k a year? That can't possibly be true can it?

IsThatSo?

MagicMarker wrote: »

Good article indeed.

Do primary school teachers really start off on 40k a year? That can't possibly be true can it?

Nope, not true, they don't start at 40k. There are primary teachers who do earn that, but they have worked their way up the pay scale over many years.

Shocking article, but not that surprising really. The HSE has always been a crock of sh*te......................its good to hear confirmation, in a weird way!!!

DocDaneka

Nice article, dead right too. Btw about teachers salaries........


Chalking up a good salary
The salary of teachers in Irish schools varies according to their qualifications, years of service, and responsibilities.
> An experienced teacher with 20 years in the profession at primary or second level can expect to earn over €70,000 per year.
> At the top of the scale, some principals earn over €100,000.
> Primary teachers start their careers on a salary of just under €40,000, with second level teachers starting on slightly more than that.



http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/lesson-one-its-a-good-time-to-teach-1511972.html

tallaght01

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Interesting blog. However I was asking a relative in hospital about the doctor on the ward and I was told that at least during the night they get to sleep in between ward calls. I'd be happy working 75+ hours per week and getting paid for it if I could sleep through a good few of them...

Not knocking the work they do but tell it as it is please!

Doctors in Ireland regulary work a 72 hour shift with maybe 4-6 hours sleep over the 3 days in total.

Even here in Oz, where things are much better, I've often done a 24 hour shift with no sleep, or no break. I once got kidney stones after I got so dehydrated in a hospital intensive care unit, and didn't have time to drink any water. Nipped out of work tot he A+E, pissed the stone out, and was back in work 4 hours later!

Defo no time for a snooze there.

parsi

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Interesting blog. However I was asking a relative in hospital about the doctor on the ward and I was told that at least during the night they get to sleep in between ward calls. I'd be happy working 75+ hours per week and getting paid for it if I could sleep through a good few of them...

Not knocking the work they do but tell it as it is please!

Do you have kids ?

If you have you'll know that the sleep you get in between feeds/wake-ups/bad-dreams/night terrrors/bed-changing isn't of the anywhere near the same quality as one nice long stretch.

parsi

DocDaneka wrote: »

Nice article, dead right too. Btw about teachers salaries........


Chalking up a good salary
The salary of teachers in Irish schools varies according to their qualifications, years of service, and responsibilities.
> An experienced teacher with 20 years in the profession at primary or second level can expect to earn over €70,000 per year.
> At the top of the scale, some principals earn over €100,000.
> Primary teachers start their careers on a salary of just under €40,000, with second level teachers starting on slightly more than that.



http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/lesson-one-its-a-good-time-to-teach-1511972.html

I suppose you could also go and look at the payscales and get the real facts..

http://www.into.ie/ROI/WorkingConditions/Salaries/CommonBasicScale/

Nolanger

MagicMarker wrote: »

Do primary school teachers really start off on 40k a year? That can't possibly be true can it?

Great that you can pick out the truely relevant point of that article

ChewChew

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Interesting blog. However I was asking a relative in hospital about the doctor on the ward and I was told that at least during the night they get to sleep in between ward calls. I'd be happy working 75+ hours per week and getting paid for it if I could sleep through a good few of them...

Not knocking the work they do but tell it as it is please!

thats crap. doctors might only get their head down after working a non stop 24 hour shift and get a bleep to see someone in an A&E dept who has a frikkin headache. Dont get me wrong, I do believe a helluva lot of A&E cases are legit but not all of them. Alot of people waste time in A&E depts, clog up the system, make the really sick people wait 6-10 hours before getting through to see a doctor.

Also, dont forget that your relative was on ONE ward. doctors have to b e available to EVERY ward!!!

BostonB

I think GP's and delays in the rest of the system, push people into A&E to get faster treatment.

IMO doctors have a hard job, but they get paid well. I don't think they should do the hours they do. I couldn't do it. But they should be encouraged to help make the system more efficient.

DocDaneka

pay for doctors is quite terrible. Pretty much all the inefficiencies in the health service are at management/politician/IT/nursing union level of which we have no control whatsoever. Thats one of the most frustrating things about being a doctor, knowing how to fix the system but having no power whatsoever to do so and being surrounded by lazy incompetent idiots who do nothing but look after their own self interests.

BostonB

DocDaneka wrote: »

pay for doctors is quite terrible. Pretty much all the inefficiencies in the health service are at management/politician/IT/nursing union level of which we have no control whatsoever. Thats one of the most frustrating things about being a doctor, knowing how to fix the system but having no power whatsoever to do so and being surrounded by lazy incompetent idiots who do nothing but look after their own self interests.

What is the payscale from the junior to the most senior?

actually its here...
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2009/0106/1230936695161.html

SerialComplaint

DocDaneka wrote: »

Thats one of the most frustrating things about being a doctor, knowing how to fix the system but having no power whatsoever to do so and being surrounded by lazy incompetent idiots who do nothing but look after their own self interests.

Do you really believe that the docs have all the right answers, and everyone else is an idiot? Perhaps your own self-interest might be blinding you to the truth.

DocDaneka

In the immortal words of our head of IT:
"Yeah I could fix it. Or i could do nothing.My pay stays the same".

Ive worked in Ireland and abroad and i can safely say: from ground level organisation to the top - the kind of **** that goes on here is mind boggling.

Even the basic efficiencies are impossible. Try to run endoscopy clinics at weekends or 24h dialysis to reduce waiting lists and save lives - run straight into nursing unions.

Try to fire some of these idiot buffoons working 4 to a job on a 100k a year - run straight into siptu.

Try to improve the infomation technology systems and get a universal patient system up and functioning: run straight into the brick wall of lazy ass useless IT people who wont let anything interrupt their days of playing online warcraft.

No one beyond the frontline staff are responsible for anything.

I dont have all the answers but i know that every time myself and my collegues have tried to improve the place and bring it up to an international standard these huge hurdles come in the way. The consultants are another problem with their privateering rackets but they have generally welcomed improvements and what little progress we have made has been largely due to their pull.

Im not sure exactly what my own interests are but they are definately not being served working 80 hours a week doing jobs a student nurse in kazakstan would do and our nurses wont. They are not being served by wards being run like little fiefdoms with no standarisation and everything is thrown everywhere. They are not being served by having to bring in my own lightbulbs to work because the repair department wont fix anything.They are not being served by having to run across the hospital each time i need an xray because our IT dep wont spend a few hours making an automated ordering system.

Nolanger

DocDaneka wrote: »

Ive worked in Ireland and abroad and i can safely say: from ground level organisation to the top - the kind of **** that goes on here is mind boggling.

Know why?
Because our best minds emigrate.
This country is full of idiots with great communication and teamplaying skills: RTE, FAS, Civil Service, hospitals.
Think differently or question anything and people think you're being difficult.
Personally if I ever get sick then not going near an Irish hospital - better off visiting Lourdes.

SerialComplaint

DocDaneka wrote: »

In the immortal words of our head of IT:
"Yeah I could fix it. Or i could do nothing.My pay stays the same".

Ive worked in Ireland and abroad and i can safely say: from ground level organisation to the top - the kind of **** that goes on here is mind boggling.

Even the basic efficiencies are impossible. Try to run endoscopy clinics at weekends or 24h dialysis to reduce waiting lists and save lives - run straight into nursing unions.

Try to fire some of these idiot buffoons working 4 to a job on a 100k a year - run straight into siptu.

Try to improve the infomation technology systems and get a universal patient system up and functioning: run straight into the brick wall of lazy ass useless IT people who wont let anything interrupt their days of playing online warcraft.

No one beyond the frontline staff are responsible for anything.

I dont have all the answers but i know that every time myself and my collegues have tried to improve the place and bring it up to an international standard these huge hurdles come in the way. The consultants are another problem with their privateering rackets but they have generally welcomed improvements and what little progress we have made has been largely due to their pull.

Im not sure exactly what my own interests are but they are definately not being served working 80 hours a week doing jobs a student nurse in kazakstan would do and our nurses wont. They are not being served by wards being run like little fiefdoms with no standarisation and everything is thrown everywhere. They are not being served by having to bring in my own lightbulbs to work because the repair department wont fix anything.They are not being served by having to run across the hospital each time i need an xray because our IT dep wont spend a few hours making an automated ordering system.

One might think from reading your posts that only nurses unions and administrators unions have any power in the hospitals. The IMO haven't shyed away from exercising their own power and vetoes when it suited them. Perhaps from your POV it seems that other unions are obstructions and your own union is a support, but the view from above might be a bit more balanced.

Having run IT depts (though not in hospitals, mind you), I wouldn't expect your IT manager to drop everything and produce a new application every time every staff member has a good idea. IT depts normally work to a plan, and focus their attention on the applications that have most benefit for the overall organisation. This plan is normally prioritised in conjunction with key stakeholders. If you want your X-ray ordering application, find out how you can get on this plan. And don't expect a mission-critical application that handles sensitive medical data to be produced in an afternoon.

If the IT manager does this 'I could do nothing' crap, call him on it. Or find somebody senior on your side of the house prepared to call him on it. And if the IT dept are playing WOW all day, rat them out.

Given that the HSE is run with a medic at the top, it is a bit hard to believe that all the blame lies with everyone other than the doctors.

kiwikid

parsi wrote: »

I suppose you could also go and look at the payscales and get the real facts..

http://www.into.ie/ROI/WorkingConditions/Salaries/CommonBasicScale/

what was previously typed was correct.
Tell me does anyone start on the point one of the pay scale WITHOUT adding allowances for their degree (and masters / PhD if applicable) and their Dip. ? because i don't think they do.

If a teacher qualifies and starts on point one of the scale €32,599 they can add their primary degree - say 2nd class honours and their dip - say they get a honour and both are €5,177 and €1,301 respectivley - add it all up and teachers do as the previous poster suggested start at just under €40k at approximately €39,077.
are these not the more "real facts"??

and thats not including the teachers ability to "chalk up" extra income through subbing, yard duty, private grinds etc.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

kiwikid wrote: »

what was previously typed was correct.
Tell me does anyone start on the point one of the pay scale WITHOUT adding allowances for their degree (and masters / PhD if applicable) and their Dip. ? because i don't think they do.

If a teacher qualifies and starts on point one of the scale €32,599 they can add their primary degree - say 2nd class honours and their dip - say they get a honour and both are €5,177 and €1,301 respectivley - add it all up and teachers do as the previous poster suggested start at just under €40k at approximately €39,077.
are these not the more "real facts"??

and thats not including the teachers ability to "chalk up" extra income through subbing, yard duty, private grinds etc.

No, no they are not at all... I know some teachers, one is family, and they are on nothing near 40K even after a few years service... You're talking crap

kiwikid

Aaden Rapid Thanksgiving wrote: »

No, no they are not at all... I know some teachers, one is family, and they are on nothing near 40K even after a few years service... You're talking crap

you posted the link I just read it properly!!
teachers who do not earn that are
1 a not secondary teachers,
2 working to another scale perhaps
3 not full time permanent employees.

My sister is a teacher and she showed me how to read the scale you posted so how does that grab ya...

If you want to say they earn less then please explain as i have where you get the lower figure. I'ed love to know. this link shows better the allowances http://www.asti.ie/payandcon.htm#1

jimmmy

BostonB wrote: »

IMO doctors have a hard job, but they get paid well.

Our hospital staff are overpaid compared with most countries in the world. They are not always so hard worked either ; I have spent enough time in hospitals to see that many staff there have a very easy life, relatively speaking.

kiwikid

jimmmy wrote: »

Our hospital staff are overpaid compared with most countries in the world. They are not always so hard worked either ; I have spent enough time in hospitals to see that many staff there have a very easy life, relatively speaking.

Its only my opinion that its one are where people can be overworked if they work alongside wasters. Say you have 4 nurses on a ward - one dawdles and keeps saying she/he is unsure etc the other 3 spend ages telling her how to do her job and more often than not just "carry" the. - I hear it happens with agency staff a lot.
Other public service areas are more immune - i mean someone dawdles but the work can wait and nobody dies...

newestUser

Aaden Rapid Thanksgiving wrote: »

No, no they are not at all... I know some teachers, one is family, and they are on nothing near 40K even after a few years service... You're talking crap

Off topic I know, but my sister's a teacher, with one years experience, degree, HDip, I've seen her payslip, she gets approx 40K.

DocDaneka

SerialComplaint wrote: »

One might think from reading your posts that only nurses unions and administrators unions have any power in the hospitals. The IMO haven't shyed away from exercising their own power and vetoes when it suited them. Perhaps from your POV it seems that other unions are obstructions and your own union is a support, but the view from above might be a bit more balanced.

Having run IT depts (though not in hospitals, mind you), I wouldn't expect your IT manager to drop everything and produce a new application every time every staff member has a good idea. IT depts normally work to a plan, and focus their attention on the applications that have most benefit for the overall organisation. This plan is normally prioritised in conjunction with key stakeholders. If you want your X-ray ordering application, find out how you can get on this plan. And don't expect a mission-critical application that handles sensitive medical data to be produced in an afternoon.

If the IT manager does this 'I could do nothing' crap, call him on it. Or find somebody senior on your side of the house prepared to call him on it. And if the IT dept are playing WOW all day, rat them out.

Given that the HSE is run with a medic at the top, it is a bit hard to believe that all the blame lies with everyone other than the doctors.

First of all the IMO is for consultants and GPs. They dont bother their asses doing anything for NCHD's who make up the vast majority of the country's hospital doctors. As a result we are constantly shafted.In the running of the hospital we have no say whatsoever.

Second of all, I also have a degree in computer engineering. Nobody is asking for a new application, all it would take is the addition of a script to our existing blood requesting application ( i could do it in a day). Our IT department is far to lazy/useless to do this. I even offered to do it for them, you can imagine what their response was to that.

Thirdly there is simply no - one to complain to. If i ****-up i will be promptly disiplined/sued/fired. If management/ maintainence / IT ****-up nothing happens. This is the public sector, these clowns are responsible to no-one. We can see them playing warcraft all day from the safety of their portacabin (they even brazenly disable the hospital firewall to do it) but complain and all you get is a vague - "we'll look into it".

Forthly Brendan Drum is a judas goat. He is not a medic, he is a political puppet blessing the harney farce with a veneer of profesional approval for a cheap cheap price of 340,000 a year ( plus 50,000 xmas bonus ). She will be glad to know it fooled at least one person...........

The_Conductor

Having spent a shocking amount of time as a patient in both public and private hospitals all over the city, and also having had my wife and other family members do similar- I'd have to say I have a lot of respect for the NCHDs and the work they do.

I have come to the conclusion that where nursing used to be seen, once upon a time, as a vocation, that Irish nurses these days see it as a 9 to 5 job like any other and woe betide anyone who tries to tell them any differently. There are some extremely good dedicated nurses out there- they tend to be the ones who train for ICU and HDU positions, and who actually care for their patients (as opposed to refusing to change bed clothes for a poor old man who through no fault of his own managed to soil himself- deciding it makes more sense to wait for the day staff to come on duty).

What is it with nurses refusing to do cannulation, take bloods, change lines or in some cases clear and reboot dialysis machines? Surely these are normal everyday tasks- that as a nurse you should be expected to do? I accept that a nurse on his or her own may need assistance in some cases- Lord knows there are enough of them out there though...... Its almost funny listening to some of the bleating from the INO- 35 hour weeks etc- do they really think that this is realistic, or indeed in place anywhere else in the public or private sector? Someone should round up a few hundred nurses and make them work for a few days in some of the Social Welfare local offices- they might shut-up and thank their lucky stars how easy they have it......

Would you feel safe knowing that the haggard NCHD being bleeped to change your line hasn't slept in just under 2 days- and is coming to you from A&E where they have just been vomitted on by yet another drunk? The only thing keeping the NCHD going is the hope that at the end of the tunnel they will get a consultant position- where they can actually have a life. I definitely don't think the overtime enters the equation- any NCHDs I know would willingly work a 40 or 50 hour week and get paid for their 40 or 50 hours and have a life- albeit on a budget. Anyone you speak to will tell you there is far more to life than money- the ability to get a good night's sleep, go to the cinema with your friends the odd time, have a bottle of wine with your missus on a night in- these are all simple little everyday things that an NCHD has trouble doing.......

What is the story with A&E and drunks too- its almost rare at the weekend to get patients who are not presenting either drunk, or as a result of injuries incurred through drink....... Its endemic. The idea of the old drunk tanks aside- it really isn't fair on those who are actually sick- or alternatively the staff who have to put up with crap.

The misguided notion that having a few consultants on weekend call will mysteriously cause wonders in the health system is laughable too- what consultant will willingly submit themselves to the same crap as the NCHDs? None in their right minds I tell you......

I think that nursing started to go seriously downhill when they gave nurses degrees- most of them now seem themselves as some sort of administrators- rather than carers for patients. I saw a statistic somewhere which said that just over 34% of nurses are engaged in duties other than the primary care of patients. If they have tens of thousands of administrators with no medical experience or qualifications out there- why do they feel the need to supplement their ranks with qualified nurses?

I know I'm going to get slated for this- but I don't care. Some of the best nurses I've come across were guys. Its not seen as a traditional career choice for men, but they tend to make a caring choice, and view nursing as a traditional vocation, rather than the 9 to 5 crap that seems to be endemic out there. I'll never forget the wonderful care my wife got from an English nurse, Simon, in ICU at St. Vincents. They have many great staff there- but he made it his duty to go that extra mile. Thankyou Simon.

DeepBlue

Doctor Y's blog wrote:

I am one of the 4000 or so NCHD’s working today in the health service. We represent the tiny fraction of the HSE that actually treat patients. To watch over us there are an astounding 12,000 managerial and administrative staff or 3 per doctor!

To fully grasp the insanity of this – imagine a factory where there are 3 managers per worker.

Tbh he lost me there.

He isn't clear whether the 12000 managerial and administrative staff are all managers but then goes on to say they are anyway with his claim of 3 managers per doctor.
Sloppy.

SerialComplaint

DocDaneka wrote: »

First of all the IMO is for consultants and GPs. They dont bother their asses doing anything for NCHD's who make up the vast majority of the country's hospital doctors. As a result we are constantly shafted.In the running of the hospital we have no say whatsoever.

Perhaps you should break this news to the IMO - http://www.imo.ie/view_categories.php?cat_id=15&sCat=70 - If they don't do anything for the NCHDs, perhaps that is because the NCHDs don't do anything for the IMO. It's a member organisation, so it is a strong as its weakest member.

DocDaneka wrote: »

Second of all, I also have a degree in computer engineering. Nobody is asking for a new application, all it would take is the addition of a script to our existing blood requesting application ( i could do it in a day). Our IT department is far to lazy/useless to do this. I even offered to do it for them, you can imagine what their response was to that.

Yeah, I can imagine their response. It would probably be similar to what your response would be if the IT guys offered to help you out during your next operation.

DocDaneka wrote: »

Thirdly there is simply no - one to complain to. If i ****-up i will be promptly disiplined/sued/fired. If management/ maintainence / IT ****-up nothing happens. This is the public sector, these clowns are responsible to no-one. We can see them playing warcraft all day from the safety of their portacabin (they even brazenly disable the hospital firewall to do it) but complain and all you get is a vague - "we'll look into it".

I really don't believe that there is no-one to complain to. Start with an email to the hospital chief exec. Or better still, convince one of your senior consultants to get on board and get him/her to send the email. Or video the guys play WOW and stick it up on youtube. Send details to Fergal Bowers or (god forbid) the Daily Mail or whoever it takes to get this sorted.

DocDaneka wrote: »

Forthly Brendan Drum is a judas goat. He is not a medic, he is a political puppet blessing the harney farce with a veneer of profesional approval for a cheap cheap price of 340,000 a year ( plus 50,000 xmas bonus ). She will be glad to know it fooled at least one person...........

He (or she) hasn't fooled anyone. I'm no fan of Drumm, but I know he has the toughest job in the country.

Believe or not, I'm on your side. I know that NCHDs are in a despicable situation, with the 80+ hour weeks and six-month contracts. I couldn't do what you do in a million years.

However, the solution won't come from;
a) blaming everyone else, or
b) playing the victim

williamsl77

Just wondering if anyone can comment about midwifery in Ireland. I am an American nurse midwife considering a move to Cork. My husband's company offered him a position there. I want to be able to practice, but want to know more about how midwifery works in Ireland before we decide. Please PM me if you are a midwife or can put me in contact with a midwife.

Thanks so much!!

Wishbone Ash

smccarrick wrote: »

What is it with nurses refusing to do cannulation, take bloods, change lines or in some cases clear and reboot dialysis machines? Surely these are normal everyday tasks- that as a nurse you should be expected to do?

I'm open to correction but I think one is now required to have done a course in phlebotomy before being permitted to take blood. The employer's may not have provided enough of such courses. It used to be the case that, if one felt competent, one could do it. Probably something to do with the present litigious society.

I'm sure it's the same with the other procedures you mentioned.

BostonB

I would agree with earlier posts that there seems to be change Irish hospitial in general and particular nursing. where the empathy for patients is gone, and the vocation of looking after people is secondary to the career.

The_Conductor

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I'm open to correction but I think one is now required to have done a course in phlebotomy before being permitted to take blood. The employer's may not have provided enough of such courses. It used to be the case that, if one felt competent, one could do it. Probably something to do with the present litigious society.

I'm sure it's the same with the other procedures you mentioned.

Surely that beggars the question- should these tasks be considered core competencies of the job- and should an inability to do them, preclude someone from nursing duties, full stop?

kiwikid

smccarrick wrote: »

Surely that beggars the question- should these tasks be considered core competencies of the job- and should an inability to do them, preclude someone from nursing duties, full stop?

the point being made here is not that courses are not available it is that the skillset for a nurse is being decreased substantially. my sister is a phlebot... and regularly comments on this. She is regularly asked to take blood from "difficult" patients" by other nurses - difficult being (children, black people- cause you can't see the vein, travellers etc). Anyway it is coming in that technicians will be hired to take blood only - and these will not be nurses.

The ethos of nursing is "caring for and being advocate for the patient" as opposed to medical treating the patient. They bleat on about how professional they are and yet do not want to use computers for routine stuff, use txt speak and call elderly patients by their name without asking first, call on you to change your dirty linen when you are served your tea (personal experience after having first child and sheets were not changed for 2 days even though they needed it (no details!)) etc etc.

How do you get rid of these "professionally trained" people and get back to the "apprenticeship" - practically trained nurses whose parchment says diploma instead of degree? methinks that ship has sailed.

DocDaneka

smccarrick wrote: »

Having spent a shocking amount of time as a patient in both public and private hospitals all over the city, and also having had my wife and other family members do similar- I'd have to say I have a lot of respect for the NCHDs and the work they do.

I have come to the conclusion that where nursing used to be seen, once upon a time, as a vocation, that Irish nurses these days see it as a 9 to 5 job like any other and woe betide anyone who tries to tell them any differently. There are some extremely good dedicated nurses out there- they tend to be the ones who train for ICU and HDU positions, and who actually care for their patients (as opposed to refusing to change bed clothes for a poor old man who through no fault of his own managed to soil himself- deciding it makes more sense to wait for the day staff to come on duty).

What is it with nurses refusing to do cannulation, take bloods, change lines or in some cases clear and reboot dialysis machines? Surely these are normal everyday tasks- that as a nurse you should be expected to do? I accept that a nurse on his or her own may need assistance in some cases- Lord knows there are enough of them out there though...... Its almost funny listening to some of the bleating from the INO- 35 hour weeks etc- do they really think that this is realistic, or indeed in place anywhere else in the public or private sector? Someone should round up a few hundred nurses and make them work for a few days in some of the Social Welfare local offices- they might shut-up and thank their lucky stars how easy they have it......

Would you feel safe knowing that the haggard NCHD being bleeped to change your line hasn't slept in just under 2 days- and is coming to you from A&E where they have just been vomitted on by yet another drunk? The only thing keeping the NCHD going is the hope that at the end of the tunnel they will get a consultant position- where they can actually have a life. I definitely don't think the overtime enters the equation- any NCHDs I know would willingly work a 40 or 50 hour week and get paid for their 40 or 50 hours and have a life- albeit on a budget. Anyone you speak to will tell you there is far more to life than money- the ability to get a good night's sleep, go to the cinema with your friends the odd time, have a bottle of wine with your missus on a night in- these are all simple little everyday things that an NCHD has trouble doing.......

What is the story with A&E and drunks too- its almost rare at the weekend to get patients who are not presenting either drunk, or as a result of injuries incurred through drink....... Its endemic. The idea of the old drunk tanks aside- it really isn't fair on those who are actually sick- or alternatively the staff who have to put up with crap.

The misguided notion that having a few consultants on weekend call will mysteriously cause wonders in the health system is laughable too- what consultant will willingly submit themselves to the same crap as the NCHDs? None in their right minds I tell you......

I think that nursing started to go seriously downhill when they gave nurses degrees- most of them now seem themselves as some sort of administrators- rather than carers for patients. I saw a statistic somewhere which said that just over 34% of nurses are engaged in duties other than the primary care of patients. If they have tens of thousands of administrators with no medical experience or qualifications out there- why do they feel the need to supplement their ranks with qualified nurses?

I know I'm going to get slated for this- but I don't care. Some of the best nurses I've come across were guys. Its not seen as a traditional career choice for men, but they tend to make a caring choice, and view nursing as a traditional vocation, rather than the 9 to 5 crap that seems to be endemic out there. I'll never forget the wonderful care my wife got from an English nurse, Simon, in ICU at St. Vincents. They have many great staff there- but he made it his duty to go that extra mile. Thankyou Simon.

Thats a very cogent description of the problem.I would love to only work 40 hours a week. More consultants is just a spitshine, without a team and attendant facilities they will be useless. Everything you said is spot on with the exception of consultancy posts. When you finish your spr training scheme, thats it, c'est fini. No job for you, good luck and thanks. Hope canada/usa/aust/uk appreciates the doctor we spent the last 10 years training. In most specialities a new post opens up every 3-5 years (with about 10-15 fully qualified regs ready to take the job) So when your finnished, essentially your only choice is emmigrate or do here and there locum consultant work.

DocDaneka

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Perhaps you should break this news to the IMO - http://www.imo.ie/view_categories.php?cat_id=15&sCat=70 - If they don't do anything for the NCHDs, perhaps that is because the NCHDs don't do anything for the IMO. It's a member organisation, so it is a strong as its weakest member.


Yeah, I can imagine their response. It would probably be similar to what your response would be if the IT guys offered to help you out during your next operation.

I really don't believe that there is no-one to complain to. Start with an email to the hospital chief exec. Or better still, convince one of your senior consultants to get on board and get him/her to send the email. Or video the guys play WOW and stick it up on youtube. Send details to Fergal Bowers or (god forbid) the Daily Mail or whoever it takes to get this sorted.

He (or she) hasn't fooled anyone. I'm no fan of Drumm, but I know he has the toughest job in the country.

Believe or not, I'm on your side. I know that NCHDs are in a despicable situation, with the 80+ hour weeks and six-month contracts. I couldn't do what you do in a million years.

However, the solution won't come from;
a) blaming everyone else, or
b) playing the victim

So by not having an obstuctionist union we are also at fault ? Would you like us to be like the ino ( 35 hour week or else!) or the €€€consulatant-gp€€€ imo ? They are well awave we think of them as useless and they are. From an NCHD perspective their last 5 years can be summed up by "we argued a lot and did nothing".
But your right we should form out own union, refuse to work beyond 37.5 hours and refuse to do any non doctor **** work.Then we wouldnt be victims.... People could look after their own damn grannies.

I wouldnt trust those twits to hold a flash light nevermind perform an operation. But if they were qualified and i was busy getting to level 80 i wouldnt object.


Its nice you think hospital execs are based in hospitals. Or they are emailable. To complain you have to submit your complaint in writing so its easy to lose. I like the idea of putting them on you tube, hard to get resolution through a portacabin window though.

In our hospital there are umpteen patients on trolleys every night. People die because we dont have have the resources to treat them. The hospital has rats, the stairs are falling appart and our waiting lists stretch into 2013. Do you think the media will care about a bunch of retards playing wow ? There is such a blizzard of **** the assholes can hide.

Drums job is to sit there and look pretty, very easy job. We could replace him with a cardboard cutout captioned with "everythings fine" and no-one would notice.

Larianne

BostonB wrote: »

I would agree with earlier posts that there seems to be change Irish hospitial in general and particular nursing. where the empathy for patients is gone, and the vocation of looking after people is secondary to the career.

I work as healthcare assistant in a private hospital/home and I can definitely notice a difference between the older nurses and the younger ones. The younger ones are so lazy. With some of them I am nearly fighting with them when I ask them to see a patient who is asking for a nurse or when a relative is looking for information about their relative in care.

The older nurses, where is it obvious they have been trained differently to newly qualified nurses, are a pleasure to work with. I know when I relay information to these nurses they will sort it out straight away and if I have any questions about a patient they always have the time to explain things to me. With others, I am called on by patients looking for the nurse as they haven't got back to them. And it's very frustrating for me having to go back and forth all the time, especially when the patient is anxious or in pain.

Its the same with HCAs. I have to re-check other assistants work or pretty much ask them to do things. I've only been in this role 5 months and these people have been doing it for years!

I'd be very nervous if someone from my family was to go to hospital!!

A relative of mine works in a hospital in a managerial position and is pissed off at constantly hitting a brick wall with red tape and people from higher up the ladder talking about cut backs all the time.

wolfpawnat

BostonB wrote: »

I would agree with earlier posts that there seems to be change Irish hospitial in general and particular nursing. where the empathy for patients is gone, and the vocation of looking after people is secondary to the career.

I am a nursing student and believe it or not I actually agree with you. I am studying to be a general nurse and then hope to go on to be a midwife but I am in a year of 180 gen nursing students and truthfully I think only about 20-30 of us (myself included) actually want to be nurses to help others, the rest are thinking of the 3-4 day, 35 hour week that is now the norm in many areas of nursing.

What really scares me is I have friends studying medicine and I have spent time with them and their fellow med students, and I am sad to say that many of these students like the nurses are not interested in helping other humans but are interested in the prestige and money. I think some people in medicine courses need a wake up call, the "cushy" lives with high wages are at consultant level, not the poor overworked A&E docs. We need more people in the profession of healthcare to actually give a ****e about others and not just themselves.

I cannot speak about the doctors in hospitals like this as I am sure many of these cocky students hit the ground with a thump when they realise that medicine is not the high life they expected. Once I was admitted to hospital and for the 2 and a half days I was there, I was treat by the same doctor constantly. I found out my entire stay in hospital was shorter than his shift! Not exactly what you see on a lot of tv programmes.

kiwikid

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I am a nursing student and believe it or not I actually agree with you. I am studying to be a general nurse and then hope to go on to be a midwife but I am in a year of 180 gen nursing students and truthfully I think only about 20-30 of us (myself included) actually want to be nurses to help others, the rest are thinking of the 3-4 day, 35 hour week that is now the norm in many areas of nursing.

Thanks for your post - its in part reassuring!
Mother was a nurse till she was 65 and she always said if "it was your mother in the bed what would you do" to my older sister who was a nurse and in the end she advised me not to go into the profession when she had for years prattled on about how wonderful it was. in her experience it was the lack of confidence and inexperience of the university trained nurses that annoyed her - say the fear of ringing the doc if they saw something odd like a reaction to meds - in case the doctor would be cross with them- baffled her as they were so cocky in their dealings with co-workers and older staff nurses.
Anyway - keep up the good work - i hope you enjoy the job as much as she did.

Wishbone Ash

wolfpawnat wrote: »

the rest are thinking of the 3-4 day, 35 hour week that is now the norm in many areas of nursing

I think you colleagues may be getting their wires crossed. First of all, you need to consider the length of the working day. Some nurses do work 3 or 4 days a week but they may be doing 13 hour days and will still clock up the 39 or 37.5 hours quicker than someone on 'office hours'.

The 37.5 hours has not been implemented in many areas yet despit the supposed launch date of June 2008.

Nurse who work 35 hours or less are doing so at their own request and therefore have a pro-rata reduction in pay. I don't know of any area in which nurses work 35 hours on full pay.

wolfpawnat

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I think you colleagues may be getting their wires crossed. First of all, you need to consider the length of the working day. Some nurses do work 3 or 4 days a week but they may be doing 13 hour days and will still clock up the 39 or 37.5 hours quicker than someone on 'office hours'.

The 37.5 hours has not been implemented in many areas yet despit the supposed launch date of June 2008.

Nurse who work 35 hours or less are doing so at their own request and therefore have a pro-rata reduction in pay. I don't know of any area in which nurses work 35 hours on full pay.

Yes I know this too:) People are not making informed decisions these days going into medical courses, I think there in lies the problem! I am aware the if you work OR Orthopedics your days are very odd, 5 day week but some long, some short days (my stepmum works that area) but my friend is a ward nurse that does 3 13 hour days and sometimes a half day on a fourth day and as she said for the 1st day off after the 3 day shift she's in bed wrecked.

Most people these days going into medicine and nursing have these great ideas that these jobs are a breeze and minimum effort money. I cant wait to see their faces when they realise the extent of a 13 hour shift in A&E on Saturday night. I accepted before going into nursing that this is the nasty part of it and was ok with that.

kiwikid - I actually agree that older nurses are far nicer than us younger ones. Especially concerning patient contact. We do get alot of ward time but we also get alot of college time too, which obviously has both benefits and disadvantages. We know alot of the anatomy and physiology but then again the ward trained nurses have no false ideas of what is to be expected. They see everything first hand and seem to get over the stress of violent accident wounds better than us:)

jimmmy

wolfpawnat wrote: »

.

Most people these days going into medicine and nursing have these great ideas that these jobs are a breeze and minimum effort money.

So it is, relatively speaking. Its well overpaid not just compared with most other people in Ireland, but compared with most medicine and nursing jobs worldwide.

As regards being a breeze, I have seen enough inefficiencies in the Irish system to make me sick. Do groups of nurses chatting among themselves , looking at computers for hours etc think they are working hard ?

kiwikid

wolfpawnat wrote: »

kiwikid - I actually agree that older nurses are far nicer than us younger ones. Especially concerning patient contact. We do get alot of ward time but we also get alot of college time too, which obviously has both benefits and disadvantages. We know alot of the anatomy and physiology but then again the ward trained nurses have no false ideas of what is to be expected. They see everything first hand and seem to get over the stress of violent accident wounds better than us:)

i would say our house had 2 types of books constantly being used. the annual mims directory and a huge blue nursing encyclopedia so I would say the older trained apprenticeship nurses have to be that bit more confident in how to handle what ever happens day to day, but also were constantly revising no matter how many years out.
Dossers of nurses, same as dossers of every other profession. thats like the day they stopped calling it a vocation i believe was the day that teaching and nurses got a load of trainees in who didn't care about anything only the time off and money for jam (when you don't do an honest days work). not meant to be argumentative, its just an opinion.

wolfpawnat

kiwikid wrote: »

Dossers of nurses, same as dossers of every other profession. thats like the day they stopped calling it a vocation i believe was the day that teaching and nurses got a load of trainees in who didn't care about anything only the time off and money for jam (when you don't do an honest days work). not meant to be argumentative, its just an opinion.

Teaching, Nursing, Medicine, Veterinary and some other careers are all careers that you really do need if you have a genuine calling. Many people go into them for the holidays and pay, but in all fairness I really think you should have to take a personality test too for them. I know that all people all have different personalities but really, I think most people who want to be in those careers for the right reasons, have very similar personalities. I know a nurse who used want to be a doctor because she wasnt happy with her lack of power as a nurse.

sam34

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I'm open to correction but I think one is now required to have done a course in phlebotomy before being permitted to take blood. The employer's may not have provided enough of such courses. It used to be the case that, if one felt competent, one could do it. Probably something to do with the present litigious society.

I'm sure it's the same with the other procedures you mentioned.

no doctor ever does a course in phlebotomy or cannulation... they learn by watching and then practicing. there are dummy arms you can practice on and we practiced on each other. thats the quickest way to learn. it may not be the best way, that docs who are new to the procedures are let loose on patients, but some of these courses are unnecessarily long and drawn out, and require prolonged periods of supervision. there has to be a happy medium somewhere

The_Conductor

sam34 wrote: »

no doctor ever does a course in phlebotomy or cannulation... they learn by watching and then practicing. there are dummy arms you can practice on and we practiced on each other. thats the quickest way to learn. it may not be the best way, that docs who are new to the procedures are let loose on patients, but some of these courses are unnecessarily long and drawn out, and require prolonged periods of supervision. there has to be a happy medium somewhere

Sounds like the way type 1 diabetics used be handed an orange at their GP- and told- go on, have a practice on this...... A bit of a blunt approach, but normally quite acceptable.

Re: taking bloods- if they had a selection of the butterfly clips around, including the blue one for those with bad veins- even a complete novice would have a reasonable degree of success......

sam34

smccarrick wrote: »

Sounds like the way type 1 diabetics used be handed an orange at their GP- and told- go on, have a practice on this...... A bit of a blunt approach, but normally quite acceptable.

Re: taking bloods- if they had a selection of the butterfly clips around, including the blue one for those with bad veins- even a complete novice would have a reasonable degree of success......

it sure ain't rocket science.... thats why it's so frustrating when you hear the nurse's refrain of "i havent done the course". just once, i'd love to reply "you know what love? i havent done the fcuking course either, but i have 2 eyes in my head and a brain and i know how to do this, it needs to be done so im going to do it" and just see the response. I'd probably be reported for bullying!

CDfm

sam34 wrote: »

it sure ain't rocket science.... thats why it's so frustrating when you hear the nurse's refrain of "i havent done the course". just once, i'd love to reply "you know what love? i havent done the fcuking course either, but i have 2 eyes in my head and a brain and i know how to do this, it needs to be done so im going to do it" and just see the response. I'd probably be reported for bullying!

reading this thread is great.

a few years back a relative had a serious operation in summertime -recovering nicely he was until a nice summer weekend until the weather was exceptional. Being a smoker I overheard nurses talk about getting the wards cleared for the weekend.

Sure enuf -my relative was shunted around to the point of disorientation. It was only the intervention and complaint from him a medical professional that got him into a quite room for rest.

After his disasterous hospital stay I revised my opinion of nurses downwards and have stopped looking at them as dedicated professionals.

This example just shows me that many are Johnny No Stars

BTW ffs after 4 years training and a degree I would expect a hospital nurse to be able to take blood.

The_Conductor

CDfm wrote: »

reading this thread is great.

a few years back a relative had a serious operation in summertime -recovering nicely he was until a nice summer weekend until the weather was exceptional. Being a smoker I overheard nurses talk about getting the wards cleared for the weekend.

Sure enuf -my relative was shunted around to the point of disorientation. It was only the intervention and complaint from him a medical professional that got him into a quite room for rest.

After his disasterous hospital stay I revised my opinion of nurses downwards and have stopped looking at them as dedicated professionals.

This example just shows me that many are Johnny No Stars

BTW ffs after 4 years training and a degree I would expect a hospital nurse to be able to take blood.

My wife had a similar experience. She was released from ICU to a high dependency unit- which wasn't very busy- so they then moved her to a liver unit (despite the fact that she had nothing whatsoever wrong with her liver), and then to another ward- all in a 24 hour period. As she had been left out in a chair shivering for over 4 hours and I was ordered not to lift her into bed myself (she had had both back and front surgery and was unable to move at all), I approached the ward manager and asked her was she planning on moving her again (would have been the 5th time in 24 hours, straight out of intensive care)- she refused to say definitively whether she was or was not. At this point I told her that I was transferring her to the private hospital- where despite the lower staffing levels- she might actually be given a little peace, and if she needed to visit the bathroom, or wanted to sit out that she would be given assistance. She informed me that I was able to or allowed to do this. I immediately rang the bed manager in St. Vincents Private and within an hour an orderly from the private hospital was over with me and helped me wheel her via a passageway to a small ward immediately next to the nurses station in a ward in the private hospital (the orderlies from the public hospital were all watching a football match and refused to assist- other than moving her into a corridor on the manager's instruction when it became apparent that I might succeed in finding her a place elsewhere). She was given good care in the private hospital- with a nurse checking up on her every few minutes, and managed to sleep a little, which helped too. Her consultant said he understood why I had done what I did- but that I should have called him and he would have organised it for me. To say I was enraged by the ward manager in St. Vincents is an understatement- she really didn't have an ounce of sympathy or empathy for the patients under her care, nor give a damn about their wellbeing. Perhaps ours was an unusual case- I don't know. We were lucky we had VHI cover.....