Komplett dispute "We cannot offer refunds as that goes against our policy"

clintgreenford

Can anyone offer me any advice as to where I stand on this ongoing dispute with Komplett? Its a long story that can be read on the Komplett section linked here, but its looking like Im going to be forced to go to small claims court.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055439791

the_syco

clintgreenford wrote: »

You havent agreed anything, I have repeatedly told your associates by phone, email and this boards thread that I am not interested in a replacement, so it clearly hasnt been "agreed". The "fact" that the parts were alledgedly damaged by An Post has nothing to do with me, that is your own dispute with An Post and does not effect my consumer rights.

The "we" stated is Komplett. Komplett is not a one-man operation.

=-=

As the parts that came to you damaged was not the fault of Komplett, it may not be Kompletts policy to issue refunds due to damage caused by a 3rd party.

penexpers

clintgreenford wrote: »

Can anyone offer me any advice as to where I stand on this ongoing dispute with Komplett? Its a long story that can be read on the Komplett section linked here, but its looking like Im going to be forced to go to small claims court.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055439791

You're not entitled to a refund - you are entitled to repair/replacement/refund, at the choice of the retailer. Whoever told you that you are entitled to a refund could do with re-taking first year business studies.

If you had returned the PC within 30 days then you may have been entitled to a refund.

I think the best course of action here is to let Komplett replace the parts and be done with it.

311

What do komplett do with parts of a PC ,thats returned ?
Surely all the working parts can't be sold on..

clintgreenford

The legal advice we so far have,was received from a very helpful man on the consumer helpline

In respect of the 30 day to return a product, we were advised by the consumer helpline that Irish law does not state an exact time limit in which we can return goods. Instead, each product is taken on case by case, and a product such as the PC I purchased should last for years and not giving me problems already

Secondly, I was advised it is not the retailers decision to choose between refund, replacment or repair. I was quoted this

"Where goods do not conform to the above criteria, you are entitled under the Act (The Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980) to seek a repair, replacement or a refund.The legislation does not specify whether it is the retailer/supplier or the customer who chooses the form of redress to be offered.
However, if a repair is offered and accepted, then it should be permanent. If not, and the same fault occurs again, then the buyer is entitled to seek another form of redress from the list.
You can also reject the retailer/supplier's offer if you wish to seek another form of redress. If you do, you may have to take the matter to the courts to have it resolved."


this comes from http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Learning_Zone/FAQs/Faulty_goods/


Now as the product was already returned to komplett to be repaired and it came back to us in a worse condition,( whether it is Komplett or An Post who is at fault is between them) I am seeking advice on their refund policy (or lack of one) and where I stand when they say 'We cannot offer refunds as that goes against our policy'.

castie

penexpers wrote: »

You're not entitled to a refund - you are entitled to repair/replacement/refund, at the choice of the retailer. Whoever told you that you are entitled to a refund could do with re-taking first year business studies.

http://www.consumerassociation.ie/rights_knowrights.html

Youre wrong in fact as long as its covered by the Sale of Goods act.

penexpers

castie wrote: »

http://www.consumerassociation.ie/rights_knowrights.html

Youre wrong in fact as long as its covered by the Sale of Goods act.

I think you'll find I'm right.

penexpers

clintgreenford wrote: »

The legal advice we so far have,was received from a very helpful man on the consumer helpline

In respect of the 30 day to return a product, we were advised by the consumer helpline that Irish law does not state an exact time limit in which we can return goods. Instead, each product is taken on case by case, and a product such as the PC I purchased should last for years and not giving me problems already

Secondly, I was advised it is not the retailers decision to choose between refund, replacment or repair. I was quoted this

"Where goods do not conform to the above criteria, you are entitled under the Act (The Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980) to seek a repair, replacement or a refund.The legislation does not specify whether it is the retailer/supplier or the customer who chooses the form of redress to be offered.
However, if a repair is offered and accepted, then it should be permanent. If not, and the same fault occurs again, then the buyer is entitled to seek another form of redress from the list.
You can also reject the retailer/supplier's offer if you wish to seek another form of redress. If you do, you may have to take the matter to the courts to have it resolved."


this comes from http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Learning_Zone/FAQs/Faulty_goods/


Now as the product was already returned to komplett to be repaired and it came back to us in a worse condition,( whether it is Komplett or An Post who is at fault is between them) I am seeking advice on their refund policy (or lack of one) and where I stand when they say 'We cannot offer refunds as that goes against our policy'.

Highlighted the important part - in reality it really is the retailer who decides the redress, the consumer is relatively powerless.

Also "entitled to seek" is not the same as "entitled to".

If you're not happy with the redress being offered by Komplett then the only option is the small claims court.

wmpdd3

Both websites say :
"The legislation does not specify whether it is the retailer/supplier or the customer who chooses the form of redress to be offered."
as does the law ( http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1980/en/act/pub/0016/index.html )

This still doesn't say the poster is entitled to refund.

I would be weary of the outcome if this went to the small claims, yes the repair service was a disaster but its not a straight forward case of faulty machine sold and no reasonable effort to made to rectify the situation by the retailer.

castie

You do not have to take a credit note if your complaint is covered by the Sale of Goods Act. You can insist on a refund, a replacement or a repair.

its says "you" can insist meaning it is your choice.

Nody

castie wrote: »

its says "you" can insist meaning it is your choice.

The law don't have a you in it; the law states:

Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980, Section 53 wrote:

Remedy for breach of warranty


53.—(1) Subject to subsection (2), where there is a breach of warranty by the seller, or where the buyer elects, or is compelled, to treat any breach of a condition on the part of the seller as a breach of warranty, the buyer is not by reason only of such breach of warranty entitled to reject the goods, but he may—


( a ) set up against the seller the breach of warranty in diminution or extinction of the price, or


( b ) maintain an action against the seller for damages for the breach of warranty.


(2) Where—


( a ) the buyer deals as consumer and there is a breach of a condition by the seller which, but for this subsection, the buyer would be compelled to treat as a breach of warranty, and


( b ) the buyer, promptly upon discovering the breach, makes a request to the seller that he either remedy the breach or replace any goods which are not in conformity with the condition,


then, if the seller refuses to comply with the request or fails to do so within a reasonable time, the buyer is entitled:


(i) to reject the goods and repudiate the contract, or


(ii) to have the defect constituting the breach remedied elsewhere and to maintain an action against the seller for the cost thereby incurred by him.


(3) The onus of proving that the buyer acted with promptness under subsection (2) shall be on him.


(4) The measure of damages for breach of warranty is the estimated loss directly and naturally resulting, in the ordinary course of events, from the breach of warranty.


(5) In the case of breach of warranty of quality such loss is prima facie the difference between the value of the goods at the time of delivery to the buyer and the value they would have had if they had answered to the warranty.


(6) The fact that the buyer has set up the breach of warranty in diminution or extinction of the price or that the seller has replaced goods or remedied a breach does not of itself prevent the buyer from maintaining an action for the same breach of warranty if he has suffered further damage.

foggy_lad

then, if the seller refuses to comply with the request or fails to do so within a reasonable time, the buyer is entitled:


(i) to reject the goods and repudiate the contract, or


(ii) to have the defect constituting the breach remedied elsewhere and to maintain an action against the seller for the cost thereby incurred by him.

it would appear that komplett did not act on the original repair in a reasonable time and are now asking to be allowed try again?

castie

reasonable time is a grey area.

If they were waiting on stock parts that took time to get delivered then the time would still be considered reasonable.

clintgreenford

castie wrote: »

reasonable time is a grey area.

If they were waiting on stock parts that took time to get delivered then the time would still be considered reasonable.

I have some evidence suggesting that the reason for delay was not due to waiting for parts. After sending my pc, i patiently waited for 5 weeks and didnt hear anythng, i chased them up received this response

I can confirm that your RMA is with us and at the moment our RMA team are working on the problem. Please allow for more time.

Apologies I can not be more specific on the current state of your RMA.

Minutes after receiving this email from Komplett I received another email, which appeared to be confirming delivery of goods. I assumed this was actually delivery of my PC to me. I asked if this was the case, and very shortly afterwards I was told:

Apologies you were not supposed to receive that email as we still have the RMA and are waiting parts to fix the RMA.

Apologies again for the confusion.

I still have the emails and these parts order emails. It suggests to me that my pc had been completly forgotten about until i chased it, and it wasnt till then that the parts were ordered.

subway

generally it is required tht the the form of redress is agreed between the buyer and seller.
if you refusea repair and they refuse a refund they you willnot be able to sort it out with the retailer.
take your claim to the SCC abd let them decide, if the consumer rights people agree with you then it would suggest you are in the right, whatever people on an internet forum try to tell you, and have a strong chance of winning.

penexpers

subway wrote: »

if the consumer rights people agree with you then it would suggest you are in the right, whatever people on an internet forum try to tell you, and have a strong chance of winning.

Honestly, the majority of people who post on this forum are better versed in consumer law than the NCA.

subway

penexpers wrote: »

Honestly, the majority of people who post on this forum are better versed in consumer law than the NCA.

thats a very broad sweeping statement to make!
i wonder do you have anything to back it up?

theyve advised me on 2 issues in the past and both i have won via the SCC.
one was very similar to this situation, but a different reatailer.

penexpers

subway wrote: »

thats a very broad sweeping statement to make!
i wonder do you have anything to back it up?

Any advice I have received off them has been misleading or inaccurate. They seem to be good at the basics (that we all learned in 1st year business studies) and printing glossy leaflets. Honestly I think the agency could disappear tomorrow and no-one would know any differently.

I don't doubt that the OP has a good chance of winning in the SCC, but that's the only avenue open to him now.

subway

based on the facts presented, and the attitude from komplett i would think the OP has a good chance of winning.

i think the OP has set a deadline of tomorrow and from there will be submitting a claim, so i guess we will find out in the new year who has won

Tester46

penexpers wrote: »

You're not entitled to a refund - you are entitled to repair/replacement/refund, at the choice of the retailer. Whoever told you that you are entitled to a refund could do with re-taking first year business studies.
If you had returned the PC within 30 days then you may have been entitled to a refund.
I think the best course of action here is to let Komplett replace the parts and be done with it.

This is nonsense. I haven't read your entire Komplett thread, but, in general, if you buy something and it doesn't work, you return it to the seller for repair and it is returned still not working (or if the seller is sitting on the item not returning it to you), then you are entitled to look for a refund.

There is a lot more to consumer law than just the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act. There are European directives as well and the upshot of these is that you are entitled to your refund. The Consumer Agencies are a great start, but I wouldn't rely on them. First of all, their advice is always way too cautious - they are covering themselves. Secondly, the people you speak to on the phone are generally not lawyers (i.e. solicitors or barristers) - they have had a minimal training in consumer law and they only really know stock answers to stock questions. They are not trained to analyse and understand the nuances of each situation. Funnily enough, they also don't recognise that being a consumer is the best contracting party to be - the law supports you.

I would get back to Komplett and tell them that (a) you have sought legal advice (talk to a solicitor - most will do a 30 min first consultation frree) and you understand you are entitled to a refund. Next tell them that under Irish law and International Conventions you are a consumer and you are entitled to treat the contract as being formed in the district where you live. Tell them that unless they give you a refund you will take a District Court case (i.e. small claims court) against them and you will also lodge official complaints with the NCA in Ireland and with the European Consumer Centre (Komplett is Norwegian as far as I know so they trade across Europe).

Too many companies operate a policy of ignoring their customers or treating them like dirt. 9 out of 10 customers give up and accept the bad treatment, so they only ever have to sort out the remaining 1 person out of 10. Make sure you are always that 1 person out of ten.

P.S. I have also had experience in the past of Komplett hiding behind An Post (and when I contacted An Post they had computer records to say it was nothing to do with them and that Komplett was lying). Don't let them away with it - low prices are not an excuse for sh*t service.

the_syco

foggy_lad wrote: »

it would appear that komplett did not act on the original repair in a reasonable time and are now asking to be allowed try again?

Sounds like they repaired it the first time around, and during return, a 3rd party company damaged the goods.

=-=

Although I'm disagreeing with most of what Tester46 says, he does make some valid points. Having been on the retailers side, I've not much faith in the postman (in general), though, in regards to them getting the package to the customer in one piece.

Tester46

the_syco wrote: »

Sounds like they repaired it the first time around, and during return, a 3rd party company damaged the goods.

=-=

Although I'm disagreeing with most of what Tester46 says, he does make some valid points. Having been on the retailers side, I've not much faith in the postman (in general), though, in regards to them getting the package to the customer in one piece.

Out of curiosity, what bits do you disagree with?

My experience is that very few retailers actually know the law. That is understandable as consumer law is a very complicated and specialised area. Ironically, consumer law is now so extensive and complicated that most consumers could never really know it all.

That said, there are a lot of good honest retailers so my comments don't apply to them.

antoinolachtnai

What third party? The shipping company? The shipping company isn't a third party - the shipping is part of komplett's service and the shipping company is acting on komplett's behalf.

Towlie

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What third party? The shipping company? The shipping company isn't a third party - the shipping is part of komplett's service and the shipping company is acting on komplett's behalf.

Not only that but i was told by the courier company that delivered my damaged item that if komplett made a claim with them then they would call and pick up the damaged item from your house with no charge to you. Yet komplett want you to sort all that out and promise to refund you then.

Within the last week i recieved the wrong blue ray player that i ordered and today i had my proper replacement with an apology and a box to return the other one. Just the relief of dealing with someone who believes in customer care and not just what they have to do according to the law would make me go back to them again and again.

boopolo

Towlie wrote: »

Just the relief of dealing with someone who believes in customer care and not just what they have to do according to the law would make me go back to them again and again.

Who? Who are you talking about?

Tester46

boopolo wrote: »

Who? Who are you talking about?

Presumably not Komplett. I have found them to be a pain in the ass to deal with. I ordered an item from them. It was perpetually shown on their site as awaiting shipping. They had sent me an An Post tracking number and everything. Eventually I phoned them. They said An Post had scanned the posted parcel in the warehouse but had never come back to collect it for delivery. They said the delay was all An Post's fault. They told me the fact they gave me an An Post tracking number proved the delay was with An Post.

So, I called An Post. Got through to a very nice woman who went out of her way to look into the situation. She said Komplett get slips with tracking numbers on them that they scan into the system themselves. She told me that Komplett seem to scan one of these slips as soon as you place an order, even though the item may not be ready for shipping at all (or even in stock?). Komplett then blame An Post for the delays.

I called Komplett back and they didn't deny it but instead waffled like an Irish government minister. I cancelled my order. They told me they couldn't refund my credit card (!!!) and I ended up having to email my personal bank account details to them in an open email, which I was furious about. I had to make them promise in writing to destroy the email immediately after they were finished with it.

Having said that, the onlyother thing I ordered from Komplett arrived (reasonably) quickly with no problems, so go figure. How can a company be so efficient sometimes and so disastrously and dishonestly bad at other times? How very un-Norwegian of them.:)

Towlie

boopolo wrote: »

Who? Who are you talking about?

An ebay seller for the blue-ray player but if you want an example closer to home then tower records.ie charged me for a Tommy Tiernan blue-ray dvd but sent me a normal dvd. I sent them an email and within an hour i got an email back all apologetic and the next day i had the blu-ray version in my hand. Would i shop there again of course because accidents happen but its how you handle it when they do that makes all the difference.

Towlie

I cancelled my order. They told me they couldn't refund my credit card (!!!) and I ended up having to email my personal bank account details to them in an open email, which I was furious about. I had to make them promise in writing to destroy the email immediately after they were finished with it.

Thats terrible. Email is the same as putting a postcard in the post. I am getting the same crap of them as well but under no circumstances would i give these people bank details when all they have to do is put in an ammount into the credit card machine (if thats how you paid) and hit the refund button. If you have a problem after buying something from Komplett then the way it seems is that they will be as awkward as possible at every turn.

We cannot offer refunds as that goes against our policy

As far as i know anyone can get a refund for something they buy online within 30 days of getting it they just lose the postage cost. Just because you have a policy does not make it right.

Kinetic^

I think the lesson learned here is, don't purchase goods from Komplett because when it goes tits up, they'll just tell you to go and jump.

slave1

Have read this thread with interest and without fueling the various legislative comments just want to state that I have ordered various items from Komplett in the past, some required RMA'ing and all very well handled.
That last comment does not reflect my experience with Komplett.
OP, go the SCC route and let us know how you get on.

foggy_lad

irish customers have rights and stating that you do not offer refunds for whatever reason contravenes those rights. obviously Komplett need to go back to school for some basic consumer issues training

Nody

Towlie wrote: »

Thats terrible. Email is the same as putting a postcard in the post. I am getting the same crap of them as well but under no circumstances would i give these people bank details when all they have to do is put in an ammount into the credit card machine (if thats how you paid) and hit the refund button. If you have a problem after buying something from Komplett then the way it seems is that they will be as awkward as possible at every turn.

Komplett don't have a brick and mortar store in Ireland as far as I know; hence any order would be online and there'd be no machine to refund through. Having said that every bank I've dealt with could issue a cheque of required of them for a refund.

As far as i know anyone can get a refund for something they buy online within 30 days of getting it they just lose the postage cost. Just because you have a policy does not make it right.

You're wrong on both accounts. First is only for objects which turn out to be greatly different from the picture (for example tickets would not be covered); secondly the dispute is not if they do refunds (they do, I've had one myself) but if a refund should be given after 1 year because the OP is not happy with the solution offered.

To Foggy, that statement would go for 99% of the retails in Ireland. Sadly this case will most likely never make it to court and once again the retailers will rather bend over then risk it and we miss yet another clarification on the law.

tallaghtoutlaws

Nody wrote: »

Komplett don't have a brick and mortar store in Ireland as far as I know; hence any order would be online and there'd be no machine to refund through. Having said that every bank I've dealt with could issue a cheque of required of them for a refund..

What that is BS I have worked for multiple online companies and their accounts departments and have the means and ways of refunding credit cards. Komplett just probably havent gone to the cost of setting up their account handling to its fuel potential.

Sam Vimes

Nody wrote: »

You're wrong on both accounts. First is only for objects which turn out to be greatly different from the picture (for example tickets would not be covered);

No it's not. You're right that tickets wouldn't be covered but not for the reason you stated. Under distance selling legislation you're entitled to a refund without giving a reason within 7 days. One of very few exceptions is services set for a specific date like tickets or a hotel reservation

Sonnenblumen

OP,

I have never bought from Komplett and after your story, chances are I never will. Well done Komplett!! In your case, waste no time waste no time and refer the matter to the Small Claims. Also use the various forums to promote Komplett's Customer Service (lack of).

Tester46

slave1 wrote: »

Have read this thread with interest and without fueling the various legislative comments just want to state that I have ordered various items from Komplett in the past, some required RMA'ing and all very well handled.
That last comment does not reflect my experience with Komplett.
OP, go the SCC route and let us know how you get on.

Yeah, but Komplett have to cop on about how they treat customers. As someone above said, accidents happen, but it's how you deal with them afterwards that makes the difference. There are too many horror stories mixed in with all the compliments about Komplett.

Cabaal

Have bought 1000's of euro's worth of stuff from komplett over the years, always had good service and excellent customer care with fast response and resolutions, they've even quickly sorted stuff that was obviously cased by An Post damaging items.

axer

It is very hard to get a refund for custom built products as they are not severable from the customer since they cannot be resold thus issues with such items are treated as a breach of warranty and not a breach of condition resulting in you not being able to rescind the contract.

Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980 wrote:

Section 11 (3) Where a contract of sale is not severable, and the buyer has accepted the goods, or part thereof, the breach of any condition to be fulfilled by the seller can only be treated as a breach of warranty, and not as a ground for rejecting the goods and treating the contract as repudiated, unless there be a term of the contract, express or implied, to that effect.

At this stage you should accept for Komplett to replace/repair the broken parts to return the computer to the original state. I very much doubt you had any other term in your contract that allows you to override the sale of goods and supply of services act 1980.

They seemed very helpful (although very slow) in that they reimaged your harddrive when they could have just replaced it with a fresh install and nothing else resulting in you losing any data on the old harddrive. It could very well take 3 days to make an image of a faulty harddrive.

Just be glad they didn't refuse to even fix it and point you towards An Post (which they could have easily done). The sooner you send the pc back the sooner you will get it back fixed.

consultech

Towlie

foggy_lad wrote: »

irish customers have rights and stating that you do not offer refunds for whatever reason contravenes those rights. obviously Komplett need to go back to school for some basic consumer issues training

Thats right foggy and i wrote to the consumer agency about having to give bank details to get a refund for postage and this is the reply i got.

The reasons given by the business regarding their failure to provide redress does not affect your entitlements as a consumer. You can pursue the matter further as detailed in the 'How to Complain' section of our website.