Luttrelstown to close

what2do

Just see on the paper that luttrelstown is to close the end of 09 - is this a sign of times to come???

Mister Sifter

Crikey... there will be a few major losses being nursed there. From golfers it's a shame as it's a cracking course. How sick would you be if you'd ploughed in a 50k joining fee...

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GOLF : LUTTRELLSTOWN CASTLE has become the latest high-profile casualty of the economic downturn as the five-star golf resort in Dublin, owned by leading Irish businessmen JP McManus, John Magnier and Aidan Brooks, will close at the end of 2009 because the business is "no longer sustainable going forward".

"It is true, Luttrellstown is closing and we advised the committee and our members yesterday," said Luttrellstown chief executive Colm Hannon last night.

"There has been a significant shortfall and losses have been incurred since we opened. Going forward we do not see the situation changing. It is very regrettable but running a golf course at Luttrellstown is no longer sustainable."

The 560-acre estate, formerly owned by the Guinness family, was sold to the Primwest Group in 1983 before it was more recently bought over by McManus, Magnier and Brooks in 2006.

Last year major redevelopment work costing over € 20 million was completed at Luttrellstown including major upgrade work to the championship golf course plus a complete redesign of the alpine style clubhouse took place.

Luttrellstown's demise has come about because of the inability to drive membership numbers up and increase green fee revenue at the Steel and Mackenzie-designed course.

"The whole business of membership has dried up and the problem we have at Luttrellstown is we don't have a critical mass of members," added Hannon, who returned home in 2005 to take up the role at Luttrelltown after running the Sandy Lane Resort in Barbados, also owned my McManus and Magnier.

"We have fewer than 400 members. A lot of the problem is linked to the current financial situation in a wider context. And basically there's not a sufficient number of people out there seeking to buy golf membership

"The amount people are prepared to pay for golf is very different from what it was before. We changed the structure over to an annual membership because we believed the days of people paying € 40-50,000 entrance fees are long gone."

Hannon confirmed they will be running the business until the end of next year as "there is an obligation to the members to give them 12 months notice".

David Holden, Luttrellstown's club secretary, said: "The news came as an absolute shock; the membership is extremely angry and disappointed at the decision."

"The club has gone through a lot of changes, we went through a period of uncertainty at one stage, but were promised great facilities and given numerous assurances that it would be a golf club for a long time. We stayed with the club for this reason, only to be told that it is closing."

After last week's news that Mount Juliet would not be staging next year's Irish Open, Luttrellstown was mentioned as a possible venue alternative but Hannon categorically stated that was "pure speculation".

He also said the current owners have no plans to sell the estate.

Trampas

sounds like they would rather close the course then let in any joe soap in.

I say if they got rid of entrance fee and charge around the same annual fee as near by courses they would get a lot of people interested.

something like mentioned in the Druids Heath thread.

copacetic

Not sure thats it, from the quotes above they moved to just such an annual fee but it hasn't worked

"The amount people are prepared to pay for golf is very different from what it was before. We changed the structure over to an annual membership because we believed the days of people paying € 40-50,000 entrance fees are long gone."

Mister Sifter

copacetic wrote: »

Not sure thats it, from the quotes above they moved to just such an annual fee but it hasn't worked

But wasn't that annual fee something like 7k for new members?

Sammo13

Yeh crazy money, 7k a year, €110 green fee, only 25% off using open fairways until they changed it to 50% in the last few months.

They priced themselves out of the market, the members who forked out 40k or whatever the fee was must be devastated, course must only 5-8 years old..

Golf is changing big style, my neighbour who is a member of Bray was telling me their increasing their fee to €1700 (crsazy money for Bray) after next year, just not getting the green fees.

not yet

Just a tought...........

Played castleknock yesterday,the guy in charge of membership made a big deal about the closure up the road saying....oh we'll be swamped by new members in the new year etc...

Is it possible that the OLD BOYS CLUB got together and said...lets start a rumour to get people rushing to join castleknock.

OilBeefHooked2

not yet wrote: »

Just a tought...........

Played castleknock yesterday,the guy in charge of membership made a big deal about the closure up the road saying....oh we'll be swamped by new members in the new year etc...

Is it possible that the OLD BOYS CLUB got together and said...lets start a rumour to get people rushing to join castleknock.

LoLconspiracytheoriesFTW

WaldenByThoreua

Sammo13 wrote: »

Yeh crazy money, 7k a year, €110 green fee, only 25% off using open fairways until they changed it to 50% in the last few months.

They priced themselves out of the market, the members who forked out 40k or whatever the fee was must be devastated, course must only 5-8 years old..

Golf is changing big style, my neighbour who is a member of Bray was telling me their increasing their fee to €1700 (crsazy money for Bray) after next year, just not getting the green fees.

Turned up in Bray early on some weekday in October looking to play only to be told they only accepted green fees on certain days, e.g Fridays and Tuesdays ....not a smart decision I would have thought for any golf club except the Old Private members Clubs which can survive on entrance fees and members money.

Mister Sifter

not yet wrote: »

Just a tought...........

Played castleknock yesterday,the guy in charge of membership made a big deal about the closure up the road saying....oh we'll be swamped by new members in the new year etc...

Is it possible that the OLD BOYS CLUB got together and said...lets start a rumour to get people rushing to join castleknock.

Not a chance.

Obni

limerickmunster wrote: »

Turned up in Bray early on some weekday in October looking to play only to be told they only accepted green fees on certain days, e.g Fridays and Tuesdays ....not a smart decision I would have thought for any golf club except the Old Private members Clubs which can survive on entrance fees and members money.

Won't be long before Bray, and clubs like them, will be out on the roadside trying to flag down passing cars to drum up business.

I can see a lot of clubs jumping on the Druid's Heath bandwagon.

WaldenByThoreua

Yup, that's why I found it strange, being October and in the depths of the recession at that stage.

stockdam

Blackwood Golf Club in County Down is closing......

http://www.blackwoodgolfcentre.com/index.htm

I don't know how it was run but the members don't get a vote as far as I know.

It was quite popular and reasonably well priced so I don't know what went wrong. There are quite a number of courses nearby but I still would have thought that it would have survived.

My own course (which I am leaving) is holding off making several decisions due to the number of people who had recently left. It's one of the top courses in Northern Ireland but have been led by too many people who want members to fund poor financial decisions. I wouldn't be surprised to see it going to the wall also - that would be a sad day as the courses are very nice.

Sammo13

Got text message from Bray G.C this morning, €25 a round, fourball for €75 between 22/12 and 3/1, also memebers get free one year sub if they introduce new member, I find hit hard to believe anybody would pay 15k in the current climate and Bray is no woodbrook or powerscourt...

Great times to be a homeless golfer...

Hobart

Graeme1982 wrote: »

But wasn't that annual fee something like 7k for new members?

The 7K was aimed very much at the corporate membership end of things. It came with something like 30 green fees a year and 1 full membership. It was actually 7K + VAT, making a total of 8.5K.

Played it recently, for €50, and have played it quite a few times over the years, as it's only round the corner from where I live. It's one of the best courses in Ireland, and a real shame to see it go.

It can only mean good news for Castleknock. They are currently running a scheme wherby you can become a full member for €60 a week, which is great value if you play 2-3 times a week. Not great news for the 82 members, who shelled out €30K a couple of years ago, though.

uberwolf

Hobart wrote: »

It can only mean good news for Castleknock. They are currently running a scheme wherby you can become a full member for €60 a week, which is great value if you play 2-3 times a week.

is that your averaging, or their payment scheme (a la Dunmurray Springs)

not yet

uberwolf wrote: »

is that your averaging, or their payment scheme (a la Dunmurray Springs)

Castleknock is 3k a year up front,no direct debit etc. Great track but when you see some deals going around seems just a tiny bit over priced.

I do agree if you play even twice a week you get value thou.

Hobart

uberwolf wrote: »

is that your averaging, or their payment scheme (a la Dunmurray Springs)

Averageing, but it's how they are selling it at the moment.

Mister Sifter

Castleknock is nice and all that, but it would be a bit of a comedown from Luttrellstown.

d2ww

Luttrellstown members had a meeting last night, looks like they will will just play out the year and then go their seperate ways. Quite a few are from the southside, so castleknock GC would not be an automatic choice for them. It's such a shame, that such a good course so close to the city center is going to be lost. I think the owners got carried away with the whole 5 star thing, they even changed the logo to a big capital L to look like the K club!! :rolleyes:
They wasted money doubling the size of the clubhouse, making the thing the size of the QE2, all on the flawed basis that golf tourists come Ireland to play parkland golf, they don't, our usp is links golf. Pat Ruddy's model in The European, on the other hand, will imo stand the test of time and recessions, concentrate on the quality of the course and never mind what the clubhouse looks like.

f22

d2ww wrote: »

Luttrellstown members had a meeting last night, looks like they will will just play out the year and then go their seperate ways. Quite a few are from the southside, so castleknock GC would not be an automatic choice for them. It's such a shame, that such a good course so close to the city center is going to be lost. I think the owners got carried away with the whole 5 star thing, they even changed the logo to a big capital L to look like the K club!! :rolleyes:
They wasted money doubling the size of the clubhouse, making the thing the size of the QE2, all on the flawed basis that golf tourists come Ireland to play parkland golf, they don't, our usp is links golf. Pat Ruddy's model in The European, on the other hand, will imo stand the test of time and recessions, concentrate on the quality of the course and never mind what the clubhouse looks like.

Couldn't have put it beter myself!

slumped

I predict that after the place "closes" in December 2009, that it will be maintained carefully for around 4-5 months and will reopen in May 2010 with a new golf club and different fee structure.

I'd imagine they will look for €1800 per year and aim to get 800 members.

In 2010, the economy is supposed to be picking up and €1.44m per annum would be enough to maintain the club and course.

S

Hobart

Graeme1982 wrote: »

Castleknock is nice and all that, but it would be a bit of a comedown from Luttrellstown.

In what way Graeme? I've played both courses numerous times, and I have to say that while they are completely different in setup terms, each is as equal a challange as the other.

uberwolf

Hobart wrote: »

In what way Graeme? I've played both courses numerous times, and I have to say that while they are completely different in setup terms, each is as equal a challange as the other.

I'd imagine he means off the course. Only up at Luttrelstown the once, but very swanky. Not even in your face, but comfortable luxury and a nice bar with it.

Mister Sifter

uberwolf wrote: »

I'd imagine he means off the course. Only up at Luttrelstown the once, but very swanky. Not even in your face, but comfortable luxury and a nice bar with it.

Yeah, that's exactly it. castleknock golf course is nice and all. Luttrellstown, however, is a true top class golf resort and has a course that is a on a rung above.

Mister Sifter

slumped wrote: »

I predict that after the place "closes" in December 2009, that it will be maintained carefully for around 4-5 months and will reopen in May 2010 with a new golf club and different fee structure.

I'd imagine they will look for €1800 per year and aim to get 800 members.

In 2010, the economy is supposed to be picking up and €1.44m per annum would be enough to maintain the club and course.

S

Sounds like you have some inside knowledge there Slumped? It would be great if that did turn out to be true as it's a superb golf course and one that i think would be a real loss.

slumped

Graeme1982 wrote: »

Sounds like you have some inside knowledge there Slumped? It would be great if that did turn out to be true as it's a superb golf course and one that i think would be a real loss.

No insider knowledge, but I've been involved in management committees at golf clubs down through the years and have seen these sorts of things be discussed.

Get the old membership out - problem sorted.

Get rid of staff with redundancies - problem sorted.

Employ cheaper staff - problem sorted.

Reopen as a "new club", cheaper membership and restructered = All Problems Sorted.

All conjecture though - no basis for this - just a thought on what might happen.

Hobart

I would have thought that the closure would not be the cheapest thing for the club to do. I know in our club we have a very specific area of our constitution which deals with this type of eventuality, and also addresses the "potential" issues raised above by slumped. Then again, we own our land, so we do have a bit of an upper hand in this type of scenario.

copacetic

Hobart wrote: »

I would have thought that the closure would not be the cheapest thing for the club to do. I know in our club we have a very specific area of our constitution which deals with this type of eventuality, and also addresses the "potential" issues raised above by slumped. Then again, we own our land, so we do have a bit of an upper hand in this type of scenario.

Agreed, I'm sure all the members who paid 50k would have something to say if they tried to reopen. Unless it was sold off I'd say it is unlikely..

robert muldoon

Just remember one thing,why did JP buy it in the first place?- hardly for his love of golf,there are plenty of good quality golf courses near his home place in Co Limerick he could have laid his hands on- this recession wont last forever,by the time he gets planning permission for what he intends doing with the place, the situation might be a lot different than it is today
Although i have one argument against this idea and that is why did he pump in millions to redevelop the course and clubhouse when he bought it a few years ago?

Mister Sifter

robert muldoon wrote: »

Just remember one thing,why did JP buy it in the first place?- hardly for his love of golf,there are plenty of good quality golf courses near his home place in Co Limerick he could have laid his hands on- this recession wont last forever,by the time he gets planning permission for what he intends doing with the place, the situation might be a lot different than it is today
Although i have one argument against this idea and that is why did he pump in millions to redevelop the course and clubhouse when he bought it a few years ago?

He didn't, the €20m re-development was almost complete by the time he came in. That plan was the previous owners' doing.

robert muldoon

Graeme1982 wrote: »

He didn't, the €20m re-development was almost complete by the time he came in. That plan was the previous owners' doing.

Well then I believe the whole purpose of the purchase was for redevelopment,it has just happened sooner than anticipated, especially when I see who his patrner is in the deal.They probably see how much money they will lose in keeping it on as a golf course and decided to get on with developing it

Sandwich

Is gone. Officially announced yesterday. To be let return to pasture, the castle maybe staying open for weddings etc.

copacetic

any link to that Sandwich?

Mister Sifter

copacetic wrote: »

any link to that Sandwich?

bostoncommon

Sandwich wrote: »

Is gone. Officially announced yesterday. To be let return to pasture, the castle maybe staying open for weddings etc.

Jesus I wonder if they could sell us a few greens?

Dylan69

I might be wrong here but heard this on the grapevine that Kilkenn Castle has taken on some of the members from Luttrelstown.

Screed

Anyone know the green fees for Luttrelstown?
What condition is it in now I may make the effort to play before it closes

uberwolf

Screed wrote: »

Anyone know the green fees for Luttrelstown?
What condition is it in now I may make the effort to play before it closes

last I heard it was in great nick. I'm down to play in mid August

Hobart

Screed wrote: »

Anyone know the green fees for Luttrelstown?
What condition is it in now I may make the effort to play before it closes

http://www.teetimes.ie/teetimes.php?AID=94&FID=272&FDT=08-Jul-2009&TDT=15-Jul-2009 and it's in great condition.

randomer

30 Euro for a morning tee time, or 35 euro for an afternoon tee time, to play Luttrelstown seems to be great value

cakesnjelly

I'm playing this course for the first time on 18th July in a society, can't wait from what i've heard