Am I mad to appear on TV before patent?

Danboy

Hi,

I have a great service based idea which I have submitted to the new Dragons Den show organisers as I am looking for investment.

I have met the producer and must now submit my business plan by next week which is not a problem.
Having read some posts here about ideas not been patentable, there is nothing stopping anyone stealing my idea if I do eventually end up on the show.

Does anyone know any way of protecting my idea before I tell the nation in a 2 minute pitch, maybe a trademark?
The show is been filmed beginning January and aired in Febuary, any advice appreciated.

blue4ever

Danboy wrote: »

Hi,

I have a great service based idea which I have submitted to the new Dragons Den show organisers as I am looking for investment.

I have met the producer and must now submit my business plan by next week which is not a problem.
Having read some posts here about ideas not been patentable, there is nothing stopping anyone stealing my idea if I do eventually end up on the show.

Does anyone know any way of protecting my idea before I tell the nation in a 2 minute pitch, maybe a trademark?
The show is been filmed beginning January and aired in Febuary, any advice appreciated.

firstly - well done and good luck. It could be great publicity - but i would get serious legal advice - cost you a few hundred - but would be well worth it.

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

niceirishfella

The Scientist wrote: »

Finally, i really don't think there are Opportunists sitting at home waiting for people to come up with stuff so they can attempt to steal it.Oh, and good luck.

Really? In a recession? With lots of idle hands and minds watching the telly with redundancy money sitting in an A/C waiting to be utilised......Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
I wound'nt take it as a given that no one will see what you have as an opportunity.
Like I've seen stuff on the Uk version which gave me ideas. Think about it.

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

jerryob

Good on you Danboy! Just so as you know, if an invention is disclosed publicly, you cannot get a patent. So either protect before you go on the show, or just go for it. Building up a head of steam, and getting to market first is sometimes more valuable

Darragh29

niceirishfella wrote: »

Really? In a recession? With lots of idle hands and minds watching the telly with redundancy money sitting in an A/C waiting to be utilised......Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
I wound'nt take it as a given that no one will see what you have as an opportunity.
Like I've seen stuff on the Uk version which gave me ideas. Think about it.

I wouldn't be too concerned about other's robbing the idea to be honest, I've thrown several of my own ideas out here and if someone takes them up, best of luck to them... It it was easy to implement, everyone would be doing it!

eth0_

I can't think of anyone who went on Dragon's Den with 'an idea' and got investments.
They are looking for people with an existing business so they can see that you have business acument. It's not 100% about the product/service or potential product/service.

MagicMarker

Plus if they ask you if you have a patent in place and you say no, well you're fúcked for starters.

IrishIrish

From watching pretty much every episode of the UK version the question they always ask is "What is stopping me from going out tomorrow morning and doing the exact same thing as you?".

So I would try and come up with as good an answer as possible for that question if I were you.

Good Luck!

pwd

The best advice I heard on this sort of thing was to develop your idea to a point where it is cheaper for someone to buy it from you than to steal the idea

Look at it this way, it's not live tv.

So you have time before "MILLIONS" see it.

Having said that, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. I'm at the moment currently trying to develop a new drink for the Irish market, I've had meetings with various people who have all agreed that my idea is a good one (but I know that anyway) but my point is, anyone could realistically rob it (regardless of NDA's that were signed etc) but seriously, food and drink formulas can be patented and protected but not the usage of ingredients so it's easy to work around and modify it slightly.

I have a friend who is connected to someone incredibly successful (think of the first guy to bring the Dominoes pizza franchise to Ireland) in this country who would be interested in talking to me about my idea. The same person also has incredibly close ties with Red Bull and could "push" my idea up there if possible. A lot of thoughts went through my head about whether or not I should discuss my idea with this person and I have decided to just do it anyway (regardless of the outcome or whether or not he will steal my idea) because I feel sometimes you have got to take chances and turn them into positive opportunities. If It's not a success then fair enough. But sometimes you need to just go for it and if you have the opportunity to go on Dragons Den and nothing else exciting is coming your way, then you must take this opportunity.

pwd

pwd wrote: »

The best advice I heard on this sort of thing was to develop your idea to a point where it is cheaper for someone to buy it from you than to steal the idea

Easier said than done. How exactly do you do this?

niceirishfella

Darragh29 wrote: »

I wouldn't be too concerned about other's robbing the idea to be honest, I've thrown several of my own ideas out here and if someone takes them up, best of luck to them... It it was easy to implement, everyone would be doing it!

I would be concerned.
And throwing a few ideas out there in contrast to national telly "dragons den" are two different things.

OP, it depends on what you have to offer the dragons and how easily it could be replicated or competed against. I'd just like to underscore my comments that don't take it for granted that it'll be all grand and no-one will steal your idea, as you put it.
On the flip side, the publicity will be fantastic and of a scale you could'nt pay for. I would include in the presentation your website somehow, to highlight your web address to drive traffic. Think of how to cleverly get your brand and offering to be a central part of the presentation making it difficult for them to edit anything out - because the editing on these shows is ruthless.
Best of luck.

niceirishfella

eth0_ wrote: »

I can't think of anyone who went on Dragon's Den with 'an idea' and got investments

Really?
Levi Roots with the Reggae Reggae Sauce - This wasn't a real business, a hobby really, - and he got the investment and the business is thriving.
http://www.reggae-reggae.co.uk/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reggae_Reggae_Sauce

the guys a house hold name now and has 2 new sauces created for his brand, and has a cook book out too.


and the guy with the new alternative to the cable tie?

professore

Danboy wrote: »

Hi,

I have a great service based idea which I have submitted to the new Dragons Den show organisers as I am looking for investment.

I have met the producer and must now submit my business plan by next week which is not a problem.
Having read some posts here about ideas not been patentable, there is nothing stopping anyone stealing my idea if I do eventually end up on the show.

Does anyone know any way of protecting my idea before I tell the nation in a 2 minute pitch, maybe a trademark?
The show is been filmed beginning January and aired in Febuary, any advice appreciated.

Lots of people have great ideas. The hard part is turning the ideas into a business. Publicity like this costs a fortune. This is free publicity. I have never met a successful entrepreneur yet in the service industry who tried to hide his idea at every turn - quite the opposite.

If you don't have lots of money in the bank to develop this idea you will need to find someone who has. If someone is going to steal your idea and crush you they will do it anyway if you make any sort of success of it. If you are at any sort of size when they try it they will probably buy you out. Lots of money in the bank will help you here too. Do you have customers already / potential customers with at least verbal commitments to buy your service with real money (not friends / workmates saying what a great idea) ? Without this it's impossible to say if your service is worth anything.

On balance I think you should go for it. The only exception is if your idea is patentable and the patent is worth something then apply for patents first BEFORE you go on the show. But this doesn't seem to be the case if it's a service.

And finally GOOD LUCK

professore

niceirishfella wrote: »

Really?
Levi Roots with the Reggae Reggae Sauce - This wasn't a real business, a hobby really, - and he got the investment and the business is thriving.
http://www.reggae-reggae.co.uk/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reggae_Reggae_Sauce

the guys a house hold name now and has 2 new sauces created for his brand, and has a cook book out too.


and the guy with the new alternative to the cable tie?

They both had people buying their products already so they proved there was a market and no "secrets" to be stolen. It's not clear if the OP already has people paying good money for his service.

Danboy

Thanks for the comments everyone, I think the best thing is to ask a patent solicitor before submitting my business plan.

I have not carried out any market research but am totally convinced people would use my service.

The first question they could ask is ''whats stopping anyone else doing this after watching the show?''
My answer ''nothing'' would surely invoke 5 ''I'm out'' responses.

But saying that, if they were interested in investing they would be the best people to advice on protecting the idea between recording and airing.

I'll let you know what the solicitor says, anyone use www.cruickshank.ie before?
thanks

niceirishfella

professore wrote: »

They both had people buying their products already so they proved there was a market and no "secrets" to be stolen. It's not clear if the OP already has people paying good money for his service.

Levi Roots was selling his special family recipie jerk sauce in the local market. Hardly on a grand scale tho' i do take your point he proved some market potential, albeit on a small scale.;)

cormie

The best thing to do is be honest. Now the Irish folk could have different personalities to the English dragons, but they hated it when people made stuff up and made ridiculously positive assumptions. Just be straight up. I've the application sheet saved on my computer too, but don't think I'll be going for it yet.

semibluff

were did you guys hear about the applications etc?

who are the Irish dragons?

It would be such an adventure to work alongside someone like Peter Jones.

Good luck with it OP, oh pm me and tell me your idea and i'll let you know if you should tell anyone else

niceirishfella

semibluff wrote: »

were did you guys hear about the applications etc?

who are the Irish dragons?

It would be such an adventure to work alongside someone like Peter Jones.

Good luck with it OP, oh pm me and tell me your idea and i'll let you know if you should tell anyone else

http://www.rte.ie/tv/dragonsden/form.html

cmcsoft

If I was you I would talk to someone, if you have a solicitor he will probably know someone who deals specifically with patents. It will cost you money but at least it will give you piece of mind.

byrne0f56789

Is a patent a good idea for you? Do you have the money to protect your patent? You would probably be better spending the money that you would spend getting a patent on getting customers for your business.

Most investors invest in the person not the idea. They will only invest, if that person has built a business that is getting traction. The Dragon's Den is an entertainment format like pop idol. You will either get shot down or get the money you want. If you get destroyed by the Dragon's what effect will this have on peoples' perception of your business?

There is a huge downside to going on the Dragon's Den. It's up to you to weigh it all up.

If I wanted to rip you off and you presented your idea on national television, before you were patent pending, there is not a thing you could do to stop me. You would not be able to get a patent if you make your idea public knowledge.

I wish you all the best, again you are the best person to make the call.

snom

Hi OP, I started a business a couple of years ago and in hindsight, I was very naive before I started. I am amazed and somewhat devastated by the number of people who have copied the names of our services, copied the text on our publicity material and even all of the text on our website. I know people I work with say we should take it as a compliment but if I'm honest I was very disappointed that others would rip off our hard work. Anyway, in light of my experience - I would urge caution about exposing your idea to the general public before trying to protect your idea. We did patent our brand so we were lucky in that regard as it meant we could send out copyright infringement letters to those that copied us word for word. I thought a patent wasn't necessary when the idea first came up in the early stages of company formation but with hindsight - it was one of the best protections we ever put in place...well worth the money!

I wish you every success and hope it goes well for you. Wishing you all the best with your business!

pwd

Deleted User wrote: »

Easier said than done. How exactly do you do this?

Depends on what the idea is really! I heard this about an idea for a software application, so in that case the approach is quite simple - make the application before telling anyone who might want it.
Just do as much research and development of the idea as you can before you show it to anyone.

Darragh29

niceirishfella wrote: »

I would be concerned.
And throwing a few ideas out there in contrast to national telly "dragons den" are two different things.

OP, it depends on what you have to offer the dragons and how easily it could be replicated or competed against. I'd just like to underscore my comments that don't take it for granted that it'll be all grand and no-one will steal your idea, as you put it.
On the flip side, the publicity will be fantastic and of a scale you could'nt pay for. I would include in the presentation your website somehow, to highlight your web address to drive traffic. Think of how to cleverly get your brand and offering to be a central part of the presentation making it difficult for them to edit anything out - because the editing on these shows is ruthless.
Best of luck.

I think if the OP has an idea, he/she should develop it themselves, something like Dragons Den is only a distraction and the show lacks credibility, the people I've seen on it are being taken advantage of, they are being used for car crash TV, they think they have an idea but they don't have a marketable idea. I haven't seen one idea on Dragons Den turning up in a shop or on a market anywhere, but I've seen plenty of people being turned inside out on the show and leaving humiliated.

OP, can you tell us this??? If your idea is unique and marketable, why has nobody else taken it up before now???

If you believe in the idea, develop it yourself and put everything you have into it. That's my advice...

Darragh29

I made a mistake before of spending too much time protecting an idea that didn't turn out to be as sucessful as I thought it would be. First of all OP, the hardest part is making the idea work. I mean putting the nuts and bolts on it and making it make money for you. Until you have achieved this, you have nothing to protect.

Also, as far as I know, Dragons Den make you sign an agreement that entitles them to the profits from any idea that could ultimately become successful on the back of the series, this is fairly standard for TV productions...

Trojan

Hey Darragh,

I'm not picking on you here but completely disagree with a lot of that:

Darragh29 wrote: »

I think if the OP has an idea, he/she should develop it themselves

Good advice. But again, part of developing a business idea can be looking to 3rd parties for partnership/mentoring/investment.

Darragh29 wrote: »

something like Dragons Den is only a distraction

A distraction? Forcing you to think through your business plan, put it all down on paper, focus on the important figures, present it clearly and concisely to people? I don't agree.

Darragh29 wrote: »

and the show lacks credibility

We don't know for the Irish show yet, but I completely disagree with you if you're referring to English version.

Darragh29 wrote: »

the people I've seen on it are being taken advantage of

Sure, SOME of them are. And conversely, many of them are taking advantage of getting on the show.

Darragh29 wrote: »

, they are being used for car crash TV, they think they have an idea but they don't have a marketable idea. I haven't seen one idea on Dragons Den turning up in a shop or on a market anywhere, but I've seen plenty of people being turned inside out on the show and leaving humiliated.

I think it's unfair to tar the whole show like that. I think a very small percentage would say they were humiliated.

Darragh29 wrote: »

If you believe in the idea, develop it yourself and put everything you have into it. That's my advice...

As I said previously, sometimes you need help.

Trojan

Darragh29 wrote: »

Also, as far as I know, Dragons Den make you sign an agreement that entitles them to the profits from any idea that could ultimately become successful on the back of the series, this is fairly standard for TV productions...

That's interesting, didn't hear about that before.

niceirishfella

Trojan wrote: »

Hey Darragh,

I'm not picking on you here but completely disagree with a lot of that:



Good advice. But again, part of developing a business idea can be looking to 3rd parties for partnership/mentoring/investment.



A distraction? Forcing you to think through your business plan, put it all down on paper, focus on the important figures, present it clearly and concisely to people? I don't agree.



We don't know for the Irish show yet, but I completely disagree with you if you're referring to English version.



Sure, SOME of them are. And conversely, many of them are taking advantage of getting on the show.



I think it's unfair to tar the whole show like that. I think a very small percentage would say they were humiliated.



As I said previously, sometimes you need help.

+1 on all of the above.
And re; Darraghs comment ; "I haven't seen one idea on Dragons Den turning up in a shop or on a market anywhere"

ehhhhhhhhhhhhh, like the reggae reggae sauce/Subway promotion earlier this summer, radio and TV ads all over the place??? Where you out of the country Darragh?

Darragh29

Trojan wrote: »

Hey Darragh,

I'm not picking on you here but completely disagree with a lot of that:



Good advice. But again, part of developing a business idea can be looking to 3rd parties for partnership/mentoring/investment.



A distraction? Forcing you to think through your business plan, put it all down on paper, focus on the important figures, present it clearly and concisely to people? I don't agree.



We don't know for the Irish show yet, but I completely disagree with you if you're referring to English version.



Sure, SOME of them are. And conversely, many of them are taking advantage of getting on the show.



I think it's unfair to tar the whole show like that. I think a very small percentage would say they were humiliated.



As I said previously, sometimes you need help.

To be honest, I take on board all of your points above, I'm a bit of a puritan when it comes to enterpreneurship, I think it is a delicate thing and I genuinely feel sorry for folks who either rightly or wrongly, believe that they have an idea and end up on Dragon's Den being completely disrespected and made look like a laughing stock on European TV across several countries.

If you have an idea and you try to bring it to market, you deserve a hell of a lot of respect for that effort, I would argue, more so if you fail than if you succeed. If you fail, you will learn lessons that no universtity or college course can ever teach you. I know one or two of the ideas I had when I was younger, with the benefit now of hard earned experience, would never have worked. I know this now because I tried to implement these ideas and they failed, and I learned the lessons hard and quick and moved on to the next idea.

In my opinion, your innovative ability, vision, motivation and drive as an entrepreneur are your assets, like your hands, eyes and ears, I would even go so far as to say that these assets are gifts you have been given that a lot of people simply do not have, and you should think long and hard before you put those fundamental attributes at risk for the benefit of another party.

stepbar

Danboy wrote: »

I have not carried out any market research but am totally convinced people would use my service.

:eek:

Never assume anything because a lot of the time it can turn out to be false. For the love of god go out and do a bit of research of your market.

stepbar

niceirishfella wrote: »

+1 on all of the above.
And re; Darraghs comment ; "I haven't seen one idea on Dragons Den turning up in a shop or on a market anywhere"

ehhhhhhhhhhhhh, like the reggae reggae sauce/Subway promotion earlier this summer, radio and TV ads all over the place??? Where you out of the country Darragh?

How many other ideas came before and after it?

Darragh29

stepbar wrote: »

:eek:

Never assume anything because a lot of the time it can turn out to be false. For the love of god go out and do a bit of research of your market.

Sometimes OP, you can have the best of ideas, but your business will not work out for you for reasons that you would never ever have envisaged. The advice Eek has given you above is hugely important. Every single business venture starts out with a statement exactly as you have made, but between making that statement and ultimately finding success, I think the accepted figure is that around 80% of those businesses fail.

If you think Dragons Den is for you, by all means go for it. I personally don't think it is for serious entrepreneurs but that's just my 2 cents worth, but Dragons Den or no Dragons Den, research your market very carefully. There is an sold saying in business, "sometime's it's harder to get the work than it is to do the work"... :cool:

MrPillowTalk

I sometimes wonder about dragons den, it seems that most of the ideas that actually get investment are products and businesses that could have gained funding elsewhere. If your idea is very good then I would recommend trying to source the finance from somewhere else ie a banking institution of some sort at least then you dont end up giving away half your business for what is essentially a loan.

I know they try and sell that they will push your business forward etc but tbh I dont really think thats the case looking at some of the results of their uk investments, business advice can be sourced for a fee rather than a piece of the pie.

Hope it goes well for you, a freind of mine was on it in the last session of filming.

cormie

The expertise and advice from the Dragons as well as the great advertising of having Dragons actually go for your idea would be far more beneficial than a better "money" deal from a bank. As they say, it's better to have a small piece of something than a big piece of nothing.

MrPillowTalk

cormie wrote: »

The expertise and advice from the Dragons as well as the great advertising of having Dragons actually go for your idea would be far more beneficial than a better "money" deal from a bank. As they say, it's better to have a small piece of something than a big piece of nothing.

Great advertising? maybe in the Uk with a 50million market but in Ireland on TV3, dont buy it myself.

My point is I really dont think you get too much of their expertise and what you do get can be sourced elsewhere. I can sort of see the synergy if you have say a product and one of the dragons is an established distributor in that market but even then Id rather do a licensing deal or work your own distribution links.

That would be my opinion anyways.

cormie

I think they could get things moving a lot quicker than you could going solo though. Well it would be the Irish market, and depending how good your product is, youtube will be an international outlet.

Expertise, advice and the important one being connections. A lot of the UK dragons had tight contact with all sorts of industries. If the Irish one is the same, it would be very hard to decline a deal.

niceirishfella

MrPillowTalk wrote: »

Great advertising? maybe in the Uk with a 50million market but in Ireland on TV3, dont buy it myself.

My point is I really dont think you get too much of their expertise and what you do get can be sourced elsewhere. I can sort of see the synergy if you have say a product and one of the dragons is an established distributor in that market but even then Id rather do a licensing deal or work your own distribution links.

That would be my opinion anyways.

The show is going to be on RTE so it show prove popular and get good rating, tho' I do agree that a deal will be as good as the imput/contribution any dragon would bring to it when they buy in.
I don't see any of the Irish Dragons being a patch on the calibre of the Uk ones.