Sparring. Better with or without gloves? Contd...

getz

Ug Lee wrote: »

I'm looking for advise. What are the best gloves to use when sparring. Boxing gloves, what ounce/brand, etc?

when i first started in shotokan karate we never had gloves when sparring, i still dont, without gloves you have more control

Judomad

getz wrote: »

when i first started in shotokan karate we never had gloves when sparring, i still dont, without gloves you have more control

more control? explain

Ug Lee

getz wrote: »

when i first started in shotokan karate we never had gloves when sparring, i still dont, without gloves you have more control

I appreciate that however the B side is that you run the risk of doing things in sparring that would get you whalloped (sp?) if the other person was really trying to hit you for real. That extra split second between someone pulling their punch (with control) and trying to hit you (with gloves) can make a lot of difference.

Killme00

getz wrote: »

when i first started in shotokan karate we never had gloves when sparring, i still dont, without gloves you have more control

I wouldnt really call that sparring so

Ug Lee

paddyc wrote: »

aye mate you use 16oz for sparring and 10, 8 or 6 oz for fightin depending on your weight


just like boxing


paddy

And you use the 16oz for sparring to offer more protection to your opponent whereas for fighting this is not a consideration and you use 10, 8 or 6oz?

Judomad

"sparring" with no gloves is a joke imho, it shouldnt be called sparring, its should be called dancing or something, obviously nobody is going to punch someone bare knuckle in training, therefore you are not hitting each other, or you are pretending to hit each other, very un-realistic and will not work in anyway...
you might aswell do capoeira and say your a martial artist....

FruitLover

getz wrote: »

when i first started in shotokan karate we never had gloves when sparring, i still dont, without gloves you have more control

Yeah, but in other martial arts, they actually hit each other.

Judomad

FruitLover wrote: »

Yeah, but in other martial arts, they actually hit each other.

back to the whole capoeira is a martial art theory again........is shotokan karate really a martial art:D

yomchi

Keep it civil lads. The hand was put out, I agree but keep it nice and OT.

Judomad

Jon wrote: »

Keep it civil lads. The hand was put out, I agree but keep it nice and OT.

aww come on Jon. let us have a little bit of fun.....please please plase:D:D

i was just trying to get a discussion/arguement started, but thats healthy on a forum..right?

Furious-Dave

Judomad wrote: »

"sparring" with no gloves is a joke imho, it shouldnt be called sparring, its should be called dancing or something, obviously nobody is going to punch someone bare knuckle in training, therefore you are not hitting each other, or you are pretending to hit each other, very un-realistic and will not work in anyway...
you might aswell do capoeira and say your a martial artist....

A lot of the sparring done in Kyokushin is bare knuckle, with contact. Are you going to tell those guys that they are actually only doing "dancing"?
I do agree though, sparring with control (using the Kenpo meaning of control) is a joke.

getz

Judomad wrote: »

"sparring" with no gloves is a joke imho, it shouldnt be called sparring, its should be called dancing or something, obviously nobody is going to punch someone bare knuckle in training, therefore you are not hitting each other, or you are pretending to hit each other, very un-realistic and will not work in anyway...
you might aswell do capoeira and say your a martial artist....

one of the big problems of useing gloves or mitts is sparing is that in a real street fight your hands are not closing properly and you have a big chance of doing dammage to yourself ,in a street fight you cannot say wait untill i get my gloves on

Furious-Dave

getz wrote: »

one of the big problems of useing gloves or mitts is sparing is that in a real street fight your hands are not closing properly and you have a big chance of doing dammage to yourself ,in a street fight you cannot say wait untill i get my gloves on

The problem with not having gloves is that you can't punch to the head with power. Which in turn can lead to poor head defense.

Killme00

getz wrote: »

one of the big problems of useing gloves or mitts is sparing is that in a real street fight your hands are not closing properly and you have a big chance of doing dammage to yourself ,in a street fight you cannot say wait untill i get my gloves on

During sparring, padwork and bagwork, you throw well over a hundred shots per session. In a street fight, you throw one, two or even six which i would consider alot for a street fight. You are more at risk f hand damage during sparring than in a street fight due to the difference in sheer volume. Also wearing gloves means you can throw harder shots than you would during bare knuckle sparring.

getz

Furious-Dave wrote: »

The problem with not having gloves is that you can't punch to the head with power. Which in turn can lead to poor head defense.

this may sound strange to martial arts people now ,but when i first started in karate in the 1960s [at that time i was into judo] we used to punch walls or rattin boards with our knuckles to build up segs on the back of our finger just like the heals on your feet,gloves and mitts or shin guards wasent to be used .the idea at that time in competion was one strike[ipon] would win ,i was entered in the british and europe open and i got lucky and had two byes my opponents had to retire because of injury i managed to reach to last 16 before being out classed, when watching the final it [was very boreing] both the finalists stood facing each other for 5 minutes before on explosive strike won the match-but karate[shotokan] at the time was to make it as like to real life as possible all our teachers was japanese all methods had been tried and tested in war

FruitLover

getz wrote: »

all methods had been tried and tested in war

They didn't use Shotokan karate in any war. They used guns.

Nothingcompares

getz wrote: »

this may sound strange to martial arts people now ,but when i first started in karate in the 1960s [at that time i was into judo] we used to punch walls or rattin boards with our knuckles to build up segs on the back of our finger just like the heals on your feet,gloves and mitts or shin guards wasent to be used

This doesn't surprise me. I've grown to accept that people do ridiculously stupid tings in the name of martial arts. Punching walls bare knuckle has absolutely no place in intelligent training. It's stupid and pointless.

both the finalists stood facing each other for 5 minutes before on explosive strike won the match-but karate[shotokan] at the time was to make it as like to real life as possible all our teachers was japanese all methods had been tried and tested in war

Shows what Shotokan masters know about real fighting. Two blokes standing around for 5 minutes without hitting each other and the first to score a tag wins? Shotokan has long been accepted as a poor method for training for real fights and nobody interested in real fights continues to train in it.

none of the shotokan methods have been tested in war, that's frankly bull****.

getz

FruitLover wrote: »

They didn't use Shotokan karate in any war. They used guns.

shotokan came over from okinawa requested by a japanese prince because this martial art was upto then causing a problem to the samurai occupation army he[the prince requested to know more about it ] it was then made to fit the japanese thinking

FruitLover

getz wrote: »

shotokan came over from okinawa requested by a japanese prince because this martial art was upto then causing a problem to the samurai occupation army he[the prince requested to know more about it ] it was then made to fit the japanese thinking

Or so various romantic karate 'history' books would have you believe. There were no samurai in the 1920s. And Shotokan karate is a far cry from the old Okinawan styles (not that they were ever used in any wars either). Do you really think someone is going to try gyaku-zuki against a samurai armed with a sword?

ryoishin

Theres is nothing on the human body that is like a brick wall except maybe the front of the skull which I would avoid hitting with my fist.

The human body flexes when struck. You wrist could be strong enough to hit a wall but when it hits something the flexes it will weaken. Thats why heavy bags are better.

getz

sorry lads there are still samaria alive and well in japan[ok they dont walk around with swords there is even one english man in japan who is a samaria--if your martial art is sporting only you can not call it a martial art . if you do katas in your style ,that comes from shotokan they are the style that invented it enything else is just copy -now i do not teach shotokan, i teach shukokia and gosin karate,like other styles i teach katas -but i know its origin

ryoishin

Getz,

Thats just not true about katas.

Nothingcompares

I've never heard of Shotokan people doin the Naga no kata. Furthermore, Kata is also useless for fight training.

yomchi

Judomad wrote: »

aww come on Jon. let us have a little bit of fun.....please please plase:D:D

i was just trying to get a discussion/arguement started, but thats healthy on a forum..right?

No hassle with that. It is gone OT so thread split.

Carry on

FruitLover

getz wrote: »

if you do katas in your style ,that comes from shotokan they are the style that invented it enything else is just copy

OK, now you've given yourself away as a troll. Had me going there for a while!

phoenix-MT

We spar without gloves HOWEVER.....it is light controlled TECH SPARRING for drilling combos and technique. When it comes down to proper sparing you use a good size glove 16oz to protect your training partner and yourself. If you were to do it bare knuckle then you could probably only spar and once a month if your lucky...the rest of the time you would be recovering from injuries no matter how good you are!! I use Tech Sparring alot as defending with gloves on is alot different than without....your guard has to be alot tighter etc. Anyway full contact sparring you wear gloves...otherwise its pointless....i doubt 2 Muay Thai fighters sparring bare knuckle would last very long! lol

Pride Fighter

Use gloves for sparring if you want to keep your hands in good condition.

Furious-Dave

IMO it depends on the style that you do. In Kyokushin there's no punching to the head in traditional sparring so there's less risk to the hands. A lot of dojos also do sparring with gloves. In MMA I use both 16oz boxing gloves and MMA sparring gloves. Both are good to use. Boxing gloves allow for heavier contact with extra protection, and MMA gloves allow for lighter contact but with cleaner technique. They also allow you to appreciate the need for an active guard.

Nothingcompares

Nothingcompares wrote: »

This doesn't surprise me. I've grown to accept that people do ridiculously stupid tings in the name of martial arts. Punching walls bare knuckle has absolutely no place in intelligent training. It's stupid and pointless.



Shows what Shotokan masters know about real fighting. Two blokes standing around for 5 minutes without hitting each other and the first to score a tag wins? Shotokan has long been accepted as a poor method for training for real fights and nobody interested in real fights continues to train in it.

none of the shotokan methods have been tested in war, that's frankly bull****.

except for lyoto machida

Charlie3dan

Judomad wrote: »

you might aswell do capoeira and say your a martial artist....

That's more ignorance than I'm able to deal with on a monday morning.

KapapMan

Hi folks ,

I would like to add something to the discussion . Outside of a sporting context I see sparring and fighting as being two different animals . One is training/learning and the other is for your life , no comparison . The point I would like to make is that like Getz’s comment , when I started learning , conditioning was a big thing . Makiwara and sandbag were the tools for hand and foot conditioning . Many injuries and years later the heavy bag and bag gloves suffice to keep the contact heavy and for real I prefer the palm heel to hit someone . Naturally toughened and calloused . With knuckle punches the skin in between the knuckles is easily torn so if you bang someone in the mouth and cut yourself on their teeth , they may have Hep or AIDS etc . I teach a defence class and I have a method I use to help new students decide how they might like to strike hard objects . I get them to kneel down and rap their knuckles on the floor boards as hard as is comfortable for them , I repeat the method using palm heal . The difference is obvious . Just a thought .

getz

KapapMan wrote: »

Hi folks ,

I would like to add something to the discussion . Outside of a sporting context I see sparring and fighting as being two different animals . One is training/learning and the other is for your life , no comparison . The point I would like to make is that like Getz’s comment , when I started learning , conditioning was a big thing . Makiwara and sandbag were the tools for hand and foot conditioning . Many injuries and years later the heavy bag and bag gloves suffice to keep the contact heavy and for real I prefer the palm heel to hit someone . Naturally toughened and calloused . With knuckle punches the skin in between the knuckles is easily torn so if you bang someone in the mouth and cut yourself on their teeth , they may have Hep or AIDS etc . I teach a defence class and I have a method I use to help new students decide how they might like to strike hard objects . I get them to kneel down and rap their knuckles on the floor boards as hard as is comfortable for them , I repeat the method using palm heal . The difference is obvious . Just a thought .

yes the palm heel strike was used often years ago by the more advanced students-part of the warming up/exercise i like to do finger press ups and knuckle press ups this makes the fingers and knuckles a lot stronger

raptorman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=292RJFjGCKA

getz

thank you one -what the saying? worth a thousand words

Leo?

I've seen that art of war video about a million times, it's often wheeled out in Kyokushin vs Non-Kyokushin karate debates and I still fail to see anything worthwile in it, I mean compared to Royama's progressive karate seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye_Cq_cNon0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g49DCWW0pPg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kDQMK8a8XM

it's a bad joke

raptorman

Leo I wasnt making a Shotokan vs Kyokushin point. Nothing Compares said Shotokan was useless for fighting with.

FruitLover

getz wrote: »

thank you one -what the saying? worth a thousand words

Eh... what?? Weren't you the one claiming that shotokan sparring breeds better control? All I see in that video is people whacking each other in the face.

Leo?

raptorman wrote: »

Leo I wasnt making a Shotokan vs Kyokushin point. Nothing Compares said Shotokan was useless for fighting with.

I didn't say it was, I was just voicing my displeasure at that shotokan clip, as it didn't demonstrate good technique at all, and I presented examples of Karate with face face punches that did, and they used gloves.

Nothingcompares

raptorman wrote: »

Leo I wasnt making a Shotokan vs Kyokushin point. Nothing Compares said Shotokan was useless for fighting with.

Was that clip supposed to refute that point? Point sparring and their associated practices have nothing to do with fighting, it's a tag tournament. Look at the guy put their hand to their face after getting hit. it's ridiculous. no guards, no foot work, no head movement. it's frankly silly.

raptorman

I'm not saying Shotokan is the best method of fighting and I never understood the low gaurds. The point stop comp style comes from the ideology that one should train to kill with a single strike. Maybe not realistic but to call bare knuckle full contact strikes "tag" is hardly right either.
Sparring where I train Shotokan is with gloves and with a fair amount of contact.
Just so you dont think I'm an uber traditionalist I do Shotokan, MMA, spar with mates that box, done a few classes of Kyokushin, I'll train in anything basically!

Judomad

Charlie3dan wrote: »

That's more ignorance than I'm able to deal with on a monday morning.

and...........................................if you dont like it dont read it.. saying im ignorant wont bother me in the slightest my sensitive little friend...

Charlie3dan

Judomad wrote: »

and...........................................if you dont like it dont read it.. saying im ignorant wont bother me in the slightest my sensitive little friend...

Nope, thursday aint gonna do it either.

Judomad

Charlie3dan wrote: »

Nope, thursday aint gonna do it either.

i really dont care to be honest...monday or thursday..if you dont like my posts ignore them...simple as....or maybe you need to switch forum..maybe mothers for sensitive kids would be a good one...if there aint a forum called that why not create one...

yomchi

Honestly lads.

Infractions issued for keeping thread off topic and putting fellow users in danger of being hit with one your handbags.

Kila

I think it really depends on what kind of training you're doing, and what you're doing it for.

If you want to learn to fight, then realism in your training is important. This I will happily grant you. If you simply want to learn to be the most effective combatant there is, then you're likely to want to remove as many barriers as is safe and get your training as realistic as possible.

However, I would question where to draw the line. I would like to be an effective fighter, not because I want to go out and start and win fights, but because I'd like to be able to defend myself if I'm ever in a situation where I have no choice but to defend myself. It is in those situations that winning matters most (in my opinion). With all that said, I'm also perfectly happy to admit that I, like most of you here, don't pay the bills by winning fights. I have invested a large amount of time and effort into getting the job I have. I also have a significant amount of time and money invested in the dental work I'm currently having done. For the sake of training without pads to achieve higher realism, I'm not willing to risk either of those things. I've got work Monday-Friday, and it's not a job that I can do with broken or sprained joints, black eyes, broken jaws, etc. I put a lot into my training, and I consider it a huge part of my life. To that end, I dedicate an awful lot of my time, effort, and money to it. But I'm not willing to risk permanent damage by using some of the more old fashioned, and ultimately silly, ways of training.

I would rather train with the safety of some level of padding. The level can change depending on what level the students are at but I do believe that there should be some. I'm not saying that you shouldn't try to punch your partner, or that you should fall over at the first blow. But I don't think there's any greatness in being so beaten up after training that, if you were to be attacked coming out of the door, you'd be incapable of defending yourself. I've seen people at seminars missing half their teeth, with fists that don't close properly, with arms that don't straighten any more. And I just don't think that anything is worth the kind of permanent damage you can inflict upon yourself.

liquidice

You gona get yourself kiled man