Defence Forces to Afghanistan?

eroo

Thought this might be an interesting topic for debate! So try not to shoot it down in 1 go!:pac:

That's where we should have personnel imo. People don't seem to realise the likes of Al Qaieda/Mujahadeen/Taliban etc are at war with the West. We are included in that. The only reason they haven't launched any attacks in Ireland is probably because they want to focus on their main opponents UK, US, Pakistan etc.

Now I know we couldn't contribute anything major, but we could send personnel in the same way we send them on EU/UN missions. Have infantry, MP's, support and most importantly EOD. We could also send a special forces contingent. These are just suggestions. AFAIK, NZ and Aussies have sent small forces over, and Poland too? Why don't we, is what I'm asking?

The UK are involved as we all know. We expect their airforce to protect our skies, and yet we give them not very much in return. My main point though is that the insurgents in Afghanistan aim to overthrow the West. Again, that includes us. So, why don't we send a force to Afghanistan? Would you want Defence Forces personnel in Afghanistan?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Afghanastan? Not a chance, there is no reason, for Irish troops to be sent to that country. It's a hot zone, not somewhere I would like to see our troops.

Evd-Burner

Think it could be a good idea but I'd prefer to see them doing something like policing an area that has already been "free'd" by the us/uk first.

testicle

We already have troops in Afghanistan as part of ISAF.

minidazzler

testicle wrote: »

We already have troops in Afghanistan as part of ISAF.

This is true, and they have Irish Desert DPM as well,

Poccington

If I was given the chance, I'd gladly go over.

However, there's not even a slight chance of us sending over a sizeable amount of troops over there. Between politicians so ignorant to military matters and lacking any sort of bottle and the anti-war assholes the government will never put us in Ops like those that are being conducted in Afghanistan. Our government is determined to babysit the DF and until the day comes when they stop doing that, we won't get near the place.

OS119

Alani Immense File wrote: »

Afghanastan? Not a chance, there is no reason, for Irish troops to be sent to that country. It's a hot zone, not somewhere I would like to see our troops.

there are two very different issues there - whether Ireland has a vital national interest at stake, and whether you should send soldiers (rufty tufty boys with rifles, mortars and artillery) to do what they do, or send the Sisters of Eternal Mercy (middle aged ladies with Prayer beads, hope and a party pack of elastoplast) to do what they do.

personaly i think it does a vital national interest at stake - the whole 'failed state as a springboard for international terrorism thing' as well as the 'being seen by people who finance and defend you as a bunch of sponging gits who wouldn't recognise responsibility if it pissed on your kids on christmas day thing'.

of course you could send nuns to Helmand province, but i'm not sure they'd achieve very much....

Poccington

The sooner people realise that we're trained soldiers that have an actual desire to use the training we've recieved, the better

concussion

eroo wrote: »

Now I know we couldn't contribute anything major, but we could send personnel in the same way we send them on EU/UN missions. Have infantry, MP's, support and most importantly EOD. We could also send a special forces contingent. These are just suggestions. AFAIK, NZ and Aussies have sent small forces over, and Poland too? Why don't we, is what I'm asking?

Well, besides the 7 strong contingent that's been there for several years, I assume you mean a operational force rather than a HQ outfit?

Alani Immense File wrote: »

Afghanastan? Not a chance, there is no reason, for Irish troops to be sent to that country. It's a hot zone, not somewhere I would like to see our troops.

Why do you say there is no reason for Irish troops to be there - it is a UN Mandated mission after all.

Poccington wrote: »

If I was given the chance, I'd gladly go over.

However, there's not even a slight chance of us sending over a sizeable amount of troops over there. Between politicians so ignorant to military matters and lacking any sort of bottle and the anti-war assholes the government will never put us in Ops like those that are being conducted in Afghanistan. Our government is determined to babysit the DF and until the day comes when they stop doing that, we won't get near the place.

Well said.
I don't see a need for Irish troops to be there however, there are big militaries involved in ISAF and with the small numbers we are allowed to deploy I don't think it would make much of a difference. Better to continue supplying the 10 or so missions we have at the moment than to take troops to Afghanistan.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Poccington wrote: »

The sooner people realise that we're trained soldiers that have an actual desire to use the training we've recieved, the better

I agree.

However, is there any real need for Irish troops to be sent their? Honestly? Apart from the image of "hey we are kinda doing something". Peacekeeping, no problems, but I think it is still too soon to do anything.

What about the other side of the coin, did Ireland partake in any "invasion" of the country? Why should we clean up the mistakes of other nations. Especially the bullying nations of America and the UK... Let them sort it out.

As for the UK "protecting" our skies, think that is because the love us and feel sorry for us? I would suggest that Ireland would be a great place to attack the UK from giving our location. I think they are protecting themselves more than anything else...

My opinion ofcourse... correct me if I am wrong

Manic Moran

I wouldn't mind seeing some Irish lads when I'm over there. Would be nice to have someone who doesn't think my accent is weird or hard to understand.

NTM

Fratton Fred

Alani Immense File wrote: »

What about the other side of the coin, did Ireland partake in any "invasion" of the country? Why should we clean up the mistakes of other nations. Especially the bullying nations of America and the UK... Let them sort it out.

I think you are confusing Afghanistan with Iraq.

I don't think Spain, Romania, Bulgaria, Denmark, Belgium......were involved in any "Invasion" either.

eroo

Good to see a response, keep it coming lads!

I realise there are/were 7 members in Afghanistan, but I mean a force deployment of troops. But I feel that we should have troops over there to show solidarity against terrorist groups that threaten us ALL. It's not about ''giving the DF something to do''. They already have plenty to do. I just think our lads could provide incredibly useful services through EOD and ARW, not to mention the good reception Irish troops generally recieve on missions.

Manic Moran

Of interest, Iceland had a larger contingent in Afghanistan than Ireland. Which, considering Iceland has no army, is saying something: They had to make up a ground combat force from scratch for the job.

NTM

Morlar

I think Ireland should contribute to this mission also.

From what I can see one problem is the overly-vocal, grossly over-represented anti-military left. They probably make up about less than 1% of the population and are not in any way generally representative of Ireland in my view. Our politicians should not be so afraid of them as to let their protests affect our foreign policy or prevent us to meet our international obligations. Just my 2c.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I think you are confusing Afghanistan with Iraq.

I don't think Spain, Romania, Bulgaria, Denmark, Belgium......were involved in any "Invasion" either.

I think you are right Sorry for that.

Has there been a request for Ireland to enter afghanistan? Why us?

lostexpectation

when did the taliban attack the west

eroo

lostexpectation wrote: »

when did the taliban attack the west

They facilitated those who did, knowing full well what that meant.

iceage

As anxious and as willing as some of the DF are to participate or send Irish Troops to Astan, in my honest opinion I could never see it happening. For one as mentioned earlier theres the whole Cost and expenditure of sending the troops, secondly is there sufficient equipment to send with them? thirdly is their training and preparedness for the situation at hand.

The situation over there is not a peacekeeking mission, and as capable, willing and experienced as the Irish Army is, I think that the idea of Irish troops fighting and been killed in Afghanistan will be totally unacceptable to the Irish public and the people in charge here at home.

If the situation was to stabilise there, (personally I don't believe it ever will) then without a doubt Irish troops would have an opportunity to bring to the situation the vast experience that they have gained over the years from UN peacekeeping missions.

Manic Moran

If the situation was to stabilise there, (personally I don't believe it ever will) then without a doubt Irish troops would have an opportunity to bring to the situation the vast experience that they have gained over the years from UN peacekeeping missions.

Isn't that the bit where the most need is of people who are experienced in that sort of thing? I mean, once the situation has stabilised to the point that "It's safe enough to send Irish peacekeepers in", then the really difficult bit is already over. Where's the pride in saying "We kept peace once other people brought peace?" Surely if you really wanted a challenge and use of Irish military/diplomatic skills, the real test would be to go in now. Or are the vaunted Irish skills really only of the most basic level and not up to a real challenge?

NTM

Rancho

I can just imagine brian cowen getting up in the dail to announce the Irish government is considering sending troops to Afghanistan and the opposition jumping down their throats to score points/kick the government when its down... The greens would probably leave the government too seeing as the anti-war left are heavily represented in their ranks.

It wont happen because a proper debate on sending our troops to afghanistan could not take place in this country, the public in general are committed to our fanciful notion of "neutrality" and who ever is in opposition would use it to score points against the government and play on the publics fears.

Poccington

Manic Moran wrote: »

Isn't that the bit where the most need is of people who are experienced in that sort of thing? I mean, once the situation has stabilised to the point that "It's safe enough to send Irish peacekeepers in", then the really difficult bit is already over. Where's the pride in saying "We kept peace once other people brought peace?" Surely if you really wanted a challenge and use of Irish military/diplomatic skills, the real test would be to go in now. Or are the vaunted Irish skills really only of the most basic level and not up to a real challenge?

NTM

Exactly.

Personally I have full faith in the training I've recieved and the training I'd recieve before heading Overseas. Unfortunately our Government is determined to babysit us like 4 year old children that are learning how to swim, rather than professional troops that want to do the job we signed up for.

Lockstep

I could understand the Irish going into Afghanistan,

I would however, be extremely wary of them going into Iraq.

tribulus

As a matter of interest what was the public reaction like the last time a member of the Defence Forces was killed while on overseas duty?

Hande hoche!

What about the deployment of defence force personal to less violent regions of the country such as the north rather than places like helmand province?Something similar to what the Germans are doing.

Poccington

Hande hoche! wrote: »

What about the deployment of defence force personal to less violent regions of the country such as the north rather than places like helmand province?Something similar to what the Germans are doing.

Why? What will it achieve when there's work to be done in Southern Afghanistan?

iceage

I was going to multi-quote replies, but that has always struck me as appearing argumentative. I was also ready to accept incoming on my post this point has been on an awful lot of minds for a long time.

As I an not a member of the IDF I can't comment on their level of training but what I can say is that without a doubt they are not up to putting troops on the ground on mass in Afghanistan to deal with the Taliban in a full on firefight. MM. they are I'm sure up to the challenge, but how prepared they are to start returning mates bodies home in bits and pieces in black bags inside coffins? this is not scare mongering, its the facts and I'm sure you of all people are fully aware of said consequences. I believe the number of US dead stands at 628.

Poccington, as to your training, your right, I'm sure you will be fully prepared before you go overseas, this has always been the case I believe. My only issue with that is that it has always been on a defensive footing, No return fire unless fired upon, has this changed? Slightly different from FP's out to advance to contact, and contact is the name of the game. please don't think I'm having a pop, I'm not taking from past UN missions the likes of Kos and liberia they were I'm sure difficult to put it mildly and Irish troops excelled on these missions, their reputation is intact and widespread.

As for sending Irish troops to Afghanistan but not sending them to Iraq! the differance as a soldier escapes me, please do fill me in on that one, as of recently the situ in Iraq is fast approuching where the majority of coalition troops will be withdrawn (Hopefully) that day is coming and the emphasis has shifted to Afghanistan, and trust me guys I don't have to tell some of you this, Iraq as lethal, bloody and drawn out as it was will be a p*ssbreak compared to Afghanistan, You all I'm sure watched on TV as the might of the Russian war machine tried unsuccessfully to quell that Country and failed, and had to leave and admit defeat.


Oh, as an addition guys, some easy reading for you.

http://icasualties.org/oef/

Manic Moran

As a matter of interest what was the public reaction like the last time a member of the Defence Forces was killed while on overseas duty?

When was the last time the public even noticed when a member of the Defence forces was killed while on overseas duty? (Outside of a two-minute commentary about fifteen minutes into Six-One).

NTM

Hande hoche!

Members of the Defence Forces could be used to train Afghan National army personnel and members of the police forces surely? Also they could help improve infastructure.

lostexpectation

eroo wrote: »

They facilitated those who did, knowing full well what that meant.

still i think you should make your mind up who you want to attack for 911 i prefer to attack al aqaeda rather the taliban,

i wouldn't nessecarily against sending irish troops to go get the people responsible for 911 but trying invade and occupy an entire country is fruitless.

lostexpectation

tribulus wrote: »

As a matter of interest what was the public reaction like the last time a member of the Defence Forces was killed while on overseas duty?

was the last time some car accident, so a sad occasion, but no desire for revenge.

Manic Moran

I seem to recall it being a vehicle rollover in Lebanon, but that would have been some time ago now.

NTM

eroo

lostexpectation wrote: »

i wouldn't nessecarily against sending irish troops to go get the people responsible for 911 but trying invade and occupy an entire country is fruitless.

We wouldn't be doing that. The country is already occupied, and it's occupation is sanctioned by the UN.

tribulus

What I was getting at is that if there's so little coverage or reaction to deaths then would there be much public uproar if Irish soldiers were sent to Afghanistan considering it would be safe to say it's more dangerous than Chad or Kosovo?

Or is it just very vocal people or groups convincing politicians the repurcussions of such a move would be bad for their reputation?

It wasn't me!

Manic Moran wrote: »

I seem to recall it being a vehicle rollover in Lebanon, but that would have been some time ago now.

NTM

Liberia I thought? Know one of the lads involved.

pierrot

eroo wrote: »

People don't seem to realise the likes of Al Qaieda/Mujahadeen/Taliban etc are at war with the West. We are included in that. The only reason they haven't launched any attacks in Ireland is probably because they want to focus on their main opponents UK, US, Pakistan etc.

absolute nonsense imo...

jill_valentine

Who cares where the "pride" is? They're soldiers, not bloody Vikings.

One thing I've always thought the Irish Army could be proud of was it's far more mature attitude to soldiering than you get from more gung ho forces. Committing an armed force to a country just because the lads are feckin' raring to go is not a responsible use of force, and it was that kind of thinking that got the US and British forces into the bogs they're in now.

Stablising and rebuilding a country isn't as awesome looking for the cameras as invading one. It requires an entirely different set of tools, skills, and resources and a good deal more long term planning than just an invasion, and it's far harder to do. The Irish Army can be extremely proud of it's achievements in that regard, where many others fall desperately short.

Just because it doesn't look as cool doesn't make it any less necessary or important. A professional soldier isn't supposed to be in it just to wave flags around for photographers.

iceage

Alani Immense File wrote: »

I think you are right Sorry for that.

Has there been a request for Ireland to enter afghanistan? Why us?

lostexpectation wrote: »

when did the taliban attack the west

Hande hoche! wrote: »

What about the deployment of defence force personal to less violent regions of the country such as the north rather than places like helmand province?Something similar to what the Germans are doing.

Hande hoche! wrote: »

Members of the Defence Forces could be used to train Afghan National army personnel and members of the police forces surely? Also they could help improve infastructure.

lostexpectation wrote: »

still i think you should make your mind up who you want to attack for 911 i prefer to attack al aqaeda rather the taliban,

i wouldn't nessecarily against sending irish troops to go get the people responsible for 911 but trying invade and occupy an entire country is fruitless.

lostexpectation wrote: »

was the last time some car accident, so a sad occasion, but no desire for revenge.

eroo wrote: »

We wouldn't be doing that. The country is already occupied, and it's occupation is sanctioned by the UN.

tribulus wrote: »

What I was getting at is that if there's so little coverage or reaction to deaths then would there be much public uproar if Irish soldiers were sent to Afghanistan considering it would be safe to say it's more dangerous than Chad or Kosovo?

Or is it just very vocal people or groups convincing politicians the repurcussions of such a move would be bad for their reputation?

Forgive me guys, but your all civvies, you haven't a clue what your spouting about, or the danger you are proposing to put your troops in.

Hande hoche!

Yep civvie here,iceage and your right if the Soviet war machine couldn't accomplish it in ten years then it doesn't look too good.Also regardless of Afghanistan there will always be the distablising factor of the border regions of pakistan.

tribulus

I wasn't spouting anything, I merely asked two questions.

Manic Moran

Stablising and rebuilding a country isn't as awesome looking for the cameras as invading one. It requires an entirely different set of tools, skills, and resources and a good deal more long term planning than just an invasion, and it's far harder to do. The Irish Army can be extremely proud of it's achievements in that regard, where many others fall desperately short.

Afghanistan has already been invaded, they're in the stabilising and rebuilding phase now: This is the sort of thing the Irish are supposed to be good at.
On the other hand, and I know I'm going to be a bit provocative here, just when have the Irish brought stability to where there was none prior? Helped to maintain it, yes, and probably better than most other militaries could accomplish that, but to a large extent they've either gone in to where situations have already been stabilised (eg Liberia, by the US Marines, or Kosovo, by NATO in general) or where when things get rather unstable, there's not a hell of a lot the Irish have been able to achieve (Witness the amound of times Israel crossed through Irish checkpoints in Lebanon without the ability for Irish troops to do a lot about it.) The only obvious example I can think of to the contrary would be the Congo, almost a half-century ago, and I'm not sure that was an unqualified success.

NTM

civis_liberalis

Manic Moran wrote: »

Of interest, Iceland had a larger contingent in Afghanistan than Ireland./quote]


Them guys are hardy ****ers trust me!

jill_valentine

Iceland doesn't need an army. They're able to live in Iceland, for Christ's sake, mere firearms pose no threat to them.

lostexpectation

iceage wrote: »

Forgive me guys, but your all civvies, you haven't a clue what your spouting about, or the danger you are proposing to put your troops in.

i didn't suggest sending troops anywhere, we were mostly talking about the politics and public reaction, i didn't know it was prerequisite to have a rank and number to post here, maybe this whole thread should go to walter mitty especially considering eroo posts. i'd love for you to put eroo straight.

Fratton Fred

I fail to see what the problem is.

There is a UN resolution supporting the coalition in Afghanistan. Most european countries have a presence there, including nearly all of Ireland's allies in the EU rapid reaction force. Ireland is an active member of the UN and has a military. Whether or not that military has the resources to contribute is another matter, but I fail to see where the moral issue is of sending troops there.

I would suggest the biggest problem would be the fence sitters/bleeding heart liberals and shinners who like to spout about neutrality and criticise everything the British and Americans do.

eroo

lostexpectation wrote: »

i didn't suggest sending troops anywhere, we were mostly taling about the politics and public reaction, i didn't know it was prerequisite to have a rank and number to psot here, maybe this whole thread should go to walter mitty especially considering eroo posts. i'd love for you to put eroo straight.

Put me straight!? HAHAHA! What, because I'm a 'civvie' I can't have an opinion about our Defence Forces and where they serve? Please keep your mouth shut, rather than acting like schoolboy baying for blood. If you don't like my opinions, challenge me yourself rather than asking someone else to. Show at least some ability to debate, rather than what the Military forum is renowned for, bickering.

eroo

iceage wrote: »

Forgive me guys, but your all civvies, you haven't a clue what your spouting about, or the danger you are proposing to put your troops in.

First off, they are not 'our troops'. We don't own them, the CoS staff does.;)

I'm merely making suggestions that we should contribute to a UN mandated mission. Tbh, I wouldn't mind some more opinions from lads and lassies actually serving in the DF, as after all if we were to contribute they would be sent in. Not you or me.

iceage

Resourses people, thats what it come down to at the end of the day. Money money money, or lack there of. The Irish Defence Forces are stretched as it is and with all the good will in the world its never going to happen there are ongoing missions overseas, and there are irish personnel in Afghanistan as we speak but thats it, Never gonna happen.




Right, so where do I go to find rashers?

G3-Nut

Lads are yee bloody serious...irish troops to afghanistan, maybe to the less volatile regions(ie the ones where the biggest threat is a dog with rabies)...

RFHazard

G3-Nut wrote: »

Lads are yee bloody serious...irish troops to afghanistan, maybe to the less volatile regions(ie the ones where the biggest threat is a dog with rabies)....

WTF?? Does this verbal diarrhoea have any root in reality or are you in some sort of stream of consciousness creative writing class. While you're busy rummaging around for your facts you might also have a look for some full stops and capitals are hidden away there too.

Poccington

G3-Nut wrote: »

Lads are yee bloody serious...irish troops to afghanistan, maybe to the less volatile regions(ie the ones where the biggest threat is a dog with rabies)...

Listening to ball hops much? Personally, I'd love to know why a Sgt was being used as a gunner in a Mowag. I'd also love to know how he was firing a .5 when it was one of the Cav's CRV's that got hit up. That's just me though. Oh, did ya hear the one about when we had to send our lads out cause the Polish got hit up? No, you probably didn't.

Now, I'll adress the comment about the training since I'm assuming it was aimed at me. Personally I have full faith in my training because the people that trained me have done the job for real. From working with the NZSAS over in East Timor, to getting Citations for Bravery after the riots in Kosovo, the people that trained me have done real soldiering. Luckily enough, they decided to pass their knowledge onto the people they were training. Then considering the further training that would be conducted months before deployment, I personally think we'd be ready to deploy. Unless of course, you know some super secret stuff that I don't?

As for the Officer part, that's absolute bollocks and you know it. Ever completed a Cadetship have you? Witnessed the training they do? I'm going to assume you haven't, so jog on to the Airsoft Forum until you feel like talking sense.