Teenager shoots man dead

TheNog

Thirteen-year-old arrested after Dublin man shot dead Print
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Share08/12/2008 - 07:35:04
A 13-year-old boy has been arrested by gardaí investigating the shooting dead of a man in the East Wall area of Dublin's north inner city last night.

The victim, aged in his 50s, was attacked on Bargy Road at around 7.15pm. He was shot a number of times.

He was rushed to the Mater Hospital, where he was pronounced dead a short time later.

Gardaí have launched a full-scale investigation and are appealing for anyone with information to come forward.

The scene of the shooting has also been sealed off for forensic examination.

Reports this morning speculated that the man may have been shot dead by a teenager after confronting a group of youths who had been throwing eggs at his home.

He was not known to the gardaí and the killing is not believed to be linked to gangland crime.

Source


Are we entering an era of knives and guns being routinely carried by youths? I would hope not but we are not far off.

deadwood

TheNog wrote: »

Are we entering an era of knives and guns being routinely carried by youths? I would hope not but we are not far off.

It might help if the jerks with mercs'n'perks woke up and we acknowledged that we're in this era already.

eroo

TheNog wrote: »

Are we entering an era of knives and guns being routinely carried by youths? I would hope not but we are not far off.

We entered this era about 5 years ago. It's now important the Govt take the initiative in tackling this, and give AGS what they need ffs! Otherwise we'll end up like parts of the UK with serious knife crime levels, as Metman and JonAnderton could testify to that I'm sure.

arybvtcw0eolkf

eroo wrote: »

We entered this era about 5 years ago. It's now important the Govt take the initiative in tackling this, and give AGS what they need ffs! Otherwise we'll end up like parts of the UK with serious knife crime levels, as Metman and JonAnderton could testify to that I'm sure.

Well if government won't do damn all about it I can see the day when citizens will routinely arm thmselves and take the attitude that its better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.

Sar!

The question that has to be asked here is how a young child got access to a weapon like this in the first place? Not to mention the fact that they clearly thought it acceptable to shoot someone.

Anti Social behaviour (which is what started all of this) has been ignored in Dublin for far too long and if there were correct procedures in place to deal with this by Gardai and Government etc...then this awful tragedy could well have been avoided.

It really is extremely frightening and upsetting even thinking about it and no doubt even more so for the community who are having to deal with this today.

TheNog

Sar! wrote: »

Anti Social behaviour (which is what started all of this) has been ignored in Dublin for far too long and if there were correct procedures in place to deal with this by Gardai and Government etc...then this awful tragedy could well have been avoided.

Unfortunately anti-social behaviour is not the fault of the Gardai and I don't know why many people feel that is. Most anti-social behaviour occurs through alcohol consumption, partial/total breakdown of parental ability, total inability for people to take responsibility for their actions and total lack of intervention from HSE. All this comes from a lack of funding for front line workers and the courts who cannot grasp that society is changing for the worst.

I would bet my house that this 13 year old was arrested before and brought to court but got a slap on the wrists for whatever he did. I would imagine that this 13 yr old was at some stage referred by Gardai to the HSE which the HSE either chose to ignore or pass off.

End of the day Gardai are there to solve crimes, not to babysit people or treat them for their mental health problems.

djtechnics1210

Can you imagine if an armed member came on the scene and was confronted by this lad, shooting a 13 year old would leave any member with unimaginable psychological problems for a long time.

TheNog

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

Can you imagine if an armed member came on the scene and was confronted by this lad, shooting a 13 year old would leave any member with unimaginable psychological problems for a long time.

Very true. It also doesn't bear thinking about the absolute public uproar that would ensue with Gardai (as an organisation) getting the blame. TBH I don't think we are too far from it happening.

djtechnics1210

TheNog wrote: »

Very true. It also doesn't bear thinking about the absolute public uproar that would ensue with Gardai (as an organisation) getting the blame. TBH I don't think we are too far from it happening.

We thought Abbeylara and Lusk were big enquiries that went on forever, can you imagine how big the enquiry into a 13 year old being shot would be.. it would go on for years and years.

LostinBlanch

Mairt wrote: »

Well if government won't do damn all about it I can see the day when citizens will routinely arm thmselves and take the attitude that its better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.

I don't agree with it, but I can see it getting closer. FFS we're getting closer to vigilantes out on the streets. Nature abhors a vaccuum and the system, govt, courts etc just isn't interested. I'm not aiming this at guards on here btw.

But Mairt you know what will happen the citizens will be seen as a direct threat to the state and the full force of the state will come down on them rather than the cause of the problem in the first place. But then again they'll be seen to be doing something.

Nothing will happen until a high court judges or Ministers son or daughter is a victim of such a terrible crime.

metman

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

Can you imagine if an armed member came on the scene and was confronted by this lad, shooting a 13 year

Current events in Athens ring any bells?

JonAnderton

metman wrote: »

Current events in Athens ring any bells?

It's a bit different though... Don't think you could compare that incident or the publics reactions since, to this in anyway, nor relate it to the statement posed by djtechnics1210. The circumstances surrounding the shooting in Greece would have been a very different scenario to that which may have been played out in Dublin.

I took the question posed as meaning what it would have been like for the Gard.

djtechnics1210

JonAnderton wrote: »

It's a bit different though... Don't think you could compare that incident or the publics reactions since, to this in anyway, nor relate it to the statement posed by djtechnics1210. The circumstances surrounding the shooting in Greece would have been a very different scenario to that which may have been played out in Dublin.

Completely different... that young fella wasn't armed in Athens... plus the indiscriminate firing of shots to disperse rioters is a definite no in Ireland.

metman

JonAnderton wrote: »

It's a bit different though... Don't think you could compare that incident or the publics reactions since, to this in anyway, nor relate it to the statement posed by djtechnics1210. The circumstances surrounding the shooting in Greece would have been a very different scenario to that which may have been played out in Dublin.

I took the question posed as meaning what it would have been like for the Gard.

So you don't think that, regardless of the circumstances, if a thirteen year old was shot dead by the guards there wouldn't be those, who as in Greece, would use it as an opportunity to have a go, regardless of how they felt about the kid that'd been shot dead.

I'm not stating that the two sets of circumstances are in any way similar, however I think the result could be similar.

TheNog

I could see a riot happening here alright but only if the youth was from a disadvantaged area (would be the case) and the riot would be confined to that area too.

JonAnderton

I didn't say there wouldn't be protest or people 'having a go'. Of course there will be upset and as stated, localised disorder but as I said, my point was you can't compare the reaction to the Greece incident with what might happen in this scenario.

The results have been civil unrest both in Greece and throughout the world with protests and violent disorder at various embassies and locations throughout the world including, the Embassy in Berlin being stormed and 18+ people being arrested in London for attempting a similar stunt.

I don't think you'ld get that if the above mentioned event had occured due to the differences in circumstances.

I took your comparison to mean that you think that the same level of protest and unrest would be occuring throughout the world as is happening now.

Also, remember there's a lot more to this (Athens) than meets the eye...

eroo

JonAnderton wrote: »

Also, remember there's a lot more to this (Athens) than meets the eye...

It's complicated alright, with the 2 officers who were at the scene having been placed under arrest.

JonAnderton

With one being charged with murder, the second with 'being an accomplice'... Within days of the event occuring...

eroo

JonAnderton wrote: »

With one being charged with murder, the second with 'being an accomplice'... Within days of the event occuring...

Didn't know that now..

I believe the Govt in Greece is 'centre right', and came out saying before the riots that protests were justified..in an attempt to stop socialists rioting. That went down a treat!:rolleyes:

metman

JonAnderton wrote: »

I took your comparison to mean that you think that the same level of protest and unrest would be occuring throughout the world as is happening now.

I meant that (in the theoretical scenario where police shoot an armed 13 year old) regardless of who was in the right or in the wrong, if something as contentious as this occurs in an area where the police are already viewed with mistrust, there will be a backlash.

When you factor in those who take advantage of any opportunity to agitate and incite, public disorder is the guaranteed end result.

I wasn't suggesting that it would result in Irish embassies being burned out.

Eru

Sar! wrote: »

The question that has to be asked here is how a young child got access to a weapon like this in the first place? Not to mention the fact that they clearly thought it acceptable to shoot someone.

Anti Social behaviour (which is what started all of this) has been ignored in Dublin for far too long and if there were correct procedures in place to deal with this by Gardai and Government etc...then this awful tragedy could well have been avoided.

It really is extremely frightening and upsetting even thinking about it and no doubt even more so for the community who are having to deal with this today.

Ah, as I posted about 20 minutes ago, its society and the Gardai's fault

ScubaDave

I dont believe that this pistol ban is going to help things. I know pistol owners, and if there is one thing for certain is that they are the most securely locked up piece of property i have ever seen. Is there stats on legally held pistols vs illegally held pistols in armed incidents!?

AlekSmart

Interesting to see how the Press reports have already begun the muddying of the water process.
We now read of Pistols "Hidden in wall cavities" and associated other little fillers which all seem to point towards a lesser charge than Murder.

The appeal from AC Al McHugh for parents to look for signs of "distress" in their children seems to me to be clutching at straws as far as this type of juvenile offender goes.

Another aspect which bothers me in relation to the juvenile accused in any such charge is the use of the "cannot be named due to legal reasons" edict.

Can anybody explain why a juvenile charged in open court should not be named ?

djtechnics1210

Its all to do with the children's act and all that nonsense.

eroo

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

Its all to do with the children's act and all that nonsense.

In the UK, it was waived in a particularly nasty case.
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/laughing-schoolboy-rapists-of-girl-14-are-jailed-1567843.html

In an application to lift anonymity orders, prosecutors said the naming of the defendants was in the public interest.

"Those young people who become members of gangs, should know the outcome of this trial, that they will not mete out punishments as a gang with impunity and not ultimately retain their anonymity.''

metman

The sad fact is that here (as appears to be the case in Ireland) a lot of the younger gangs are nastier than the established gangs they're trying to emulate. London has no shortage of juvenille scum lining up to display their complete contempt, some would say hatred, for ordinary people, property and the law.

Have a look here and you'll get a glimpse of how many of these gangs there are, and how huge a problem this is. The reality of 13 and 14 year olds carrying firearms, committing rape and murder......after a while you stop being shocked by it, you just wonder what the next level of atrocity will be.

Eru

ScubaDave wrote: »

I dont believe that this pistol ban is going to help things. I know pistol owners, and if there is one thing for certain is that they are the most securely locked up piece of property i have ever seen. Is there stats on legally held pistols vs illegally held pistols in armed incidents!?

Not that I now of but following the last conversation on firearms I saw within the last 48 hours a dail answer that 1300 legally held guns have been stolen in the last few years. I reckon its nigh on impossible to put an accurate number on how many used in crime so far or even how many are being kept as 'clean' guns for use.

In relation to Mets comments about some of the nasty little ****s around now. I believe it was Mr Gilligan that said "You think Im bad? Wait until you see whats coming up"

LostinBlanch

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

In relation to Mets comments about some of the nasty little ****s around now. I believe it was Mr Gilligan that said "You think Im bad? Wait until you see whats coming up"

I think the first one that said that was one of the Dunnes in the 1980's when he was put away for importing heroin. Gilligan probably could have said it as well later on though.

AlekSmart

Mr Ahern said that public order problems should be addressed separately and warned that it would be unfortunate, in the light of one incident, to characterise all badly behaved young people as potential killers.

The above is from our Minister for Justice Mr Aherne as reported in todays Irish Independent.

Its rather typical of the mild mannered,socially inclusive and generally "nice" response which characterises the Irish Polititian.

Whilst the Minister tut-tuts and downplays the scaremongering of the media he and his officials remain secreted away atop some ivory tower gazing out over a peaceful Dublin Bay.

The focus of these Polititians needs to be firmly and rapidly brought in so that rather than distributing the States resources on a wide variety of schemes,plans and initiatives none of which address the basic decay at the core the same State instead needs to get-a-grip and offer it`s full support to those who work within its strictures.

Current Social Policy offers full support to the Opposite grouping as can be demonstrated by the burgeoning careers and bank balances of the top defence lawyers of the Law Library.

The coverage of the arrest and charging of the accused juvenile is a case in point.
The requirement to provide the accused with anonymity appears to demonstrate a lack of faith in the independence and standing of our basic Criminal Justice system.

Pointing and dicharging a firearm at another person is about as basic an evil as I can think of.
It is a crime which merits serious deliberation and punishment if the entire framework of this society is not to collapse totally.

Surely,for a crime as serious as Murder the accused is going to get the fullest and fairest of trials.
He has been awarded Legal Aid and the free availability of such medical aid as he requires.

These recognitions are IMO enough safeguard of the accuseds Human Rights and there is a train of thought which points to this enforced anonymity as yet another little bonus when it comes to getting away with murder,if thats what it turns out to be.

johnnyskeleton

TheNog wrote: »

Unfortunately anti-social behaviour is not the fault of the Gardai and I don't know why many people feel that is. Most anti-social behaviour occurs through alcohol consumption, partial/total breakdown of parental ability, total inability for people to take responsibility for their actions and total lack of intervention from HSE. All this comes from a lack of funding for front line workers and the courts who cannot grasp that society is changing for the worst.

The courts cannot grasp that society is changing for the worst, eh? You've never heard of Judges Neilan, Coughlan, Watkins, Brady...

TheNog wrote: »

I would bet my house that this 13 year old was arrested before and brought to court but got a slap on the wrists for whatever he did.

The fact that you don't care what he did, you think he should have been locked up for it is telling. It shows that you think that he is fundamentally evil, or possibly think he's a scumbag because of the area he's from. If he was arrested before for s.4 public order, of course he should have gotten a slap on the wrist. If he was arrested for a more serious offence, he would have been sentenced accordingly.

Also, the legal age of criminal responsibility is 12, with a presumption between 12-14. So a 13 year old wouldn't have had much time to commit serious crime and come before the circuit or central criminal courts. Notwithstanding this, I also think the guy in question was 16, not 13.

TheNog wrote: »

End of the day Gardai are there to solve crimes, not to babysit people or treat them for their mental health problems.

Their job is to investigate offences AND to protect the public.

Eru

Johnny,
Have you ever actually appeared in front of these judges or just reading newspaper reports?

And the shooter was arrested many times before, perhaps a jail sentence would have gotten the message across that commiting crime has consequences.

Finally, Gardai have a duty of care for people however it is not our duty to care for the mentally ill or solve social issues.

eroo

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Also, the legal age of criminal responsibility is 12, with a presumption between 12-14. So a 13 year old wouldn't have had much time to commit serious crime and come before the circuit or central criminal courts. Notwithstanding this, I also think the guy in question was 16, not 13.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/boy-aged-13-is-member-of-small-gang-bringing-terror-to-streets-1573698.html

He was arrested 35 times previously.:rolleyes:

johnnyskeleton

eroo wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/boy-aged-13-is-member-of-small-gang-bringing-terror-to-streets-1573698.html

He was arrested 35 times previously.:rolleyes:

& how many indictable prosecutions?

johnnyskeleton

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

And the shooter was arrested many times before, perhaps a jail sentence would have gotten the message across that commiting crime has consequences.

Arrested, but not brought before it courts it would appear from the article posted by eroo.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Finally, Gardai have a duty of care for people however it is not our duty to care for the mentally ill or solve social issues.

I never said that they did.

AlekSmart

Johnnyskeleton posts,

Arrested, but not brought before it courts it would appear from the article posted by eroo.

Crikey....35 ARRESTS for any teenager is,to my feeble right-wing mind some evidence of a certain predeliction towards wrondoing

Yes,I am prepared to accept that this lad is unusually prone to being "in the wrong place at the wrong time" or to "hanging around with the wrong crowd"

I might even be swayed by a well put arguement pointing to concerted and highly efficient conspiracy by the Dublin Metropolitain Area to frame up the young fellow in a grand sense......

However,on mature reflection,I am particularly unimpressed by either of those trains of thought.

35 arrests for Criminal Behaviour at 13 years of age.....is there a statistician in the house ..??

Even now this fellows career path looks uncannily similar to those household names of the recent past

Eru

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

& how many indictable prosecutions?

So as long as its not dealt with on indictment its not serious? Assault causing harm, burglary, joyriding and many many other hybrids get left in the district courts which can sentence upto 2 years.

Your arguement is weak, any teenager who find themselves before the courts has either commited a scheduled offence as a first offence or has been caught so many times they are no longer accepted on the jlo scheme. Either way a stretch is due.