Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Heat Pumps - post here.

17071727375

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭championc


    Sadly @dylbert too many plumbers and gas installers are installing heatpumps, and so many of them are completely clueless.

    And if course, it seems a trait with many plumbers that they know best, despite the fact that they very likely don't even have a heatpump in their own homes.

    I bet your guys have never even looked at a power consumption graph over a 24 hr period, or looked at data on the compressor speed.

    The first thing I did with my Vaillant was to install a dongle to grab the data locally off the eBus.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭championc


    Why would you look to get an engineer out - an engineer who has left you in the predicament with a grossly misfiring system ?

    If I was you, I would ask @dylbert for assistance, starting with the "water law" settings. I would ultimately go down through all settings available, and understand what each one does, and ideally make just one change at a time as you go (unless some are clearly arseways)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,654 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    mind sharing your water law settings ? Mine max temp and min max temp for ufh and rads



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7 DelE30


    Wow. So in other words, the data the Samsung controller displays might be complete nonsense and I should trust my system is pulling a better COP than it says it is…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,862 ✭✭✭poker--addict




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 jdaltonglin


    Thanks I will try this.

    Is it normal not to have an internal reference point for the HP to run from?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭championc


    There are Nibes on heatpumpmonitor.org, although they might all have just bought the emoncms kit

    Have a read of this. I haven't read it myself



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,862 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    Looks like a very enjoyable rabbit hole. Unfortunately looks like heat monitoring can be pricey so limited ROI unless one has a problem to solve

    😎



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,258 ✭✭✭mel123


    hello all, I’ve read a few pages back can’t read all 75 at the moment.

    I am doing a total refurb plus extension of an old second hand house. I was full set on just gas + electric, combo boiler and ufh heating purely because I heard so many people say putting a heat pump in to a renovation is very hard to get right, someone who knows someone always has a story to tell (a horror story)
    Got talking to an installer and he was like you’d be mad NOT to, get the grant, yadda yadda.

    Now I’m totally torn. Any advice from the usual regulars here or first hand experience of how it went for second hand refurbishing with heat pump? Yay or Nay?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,862 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    if you are doing a total refurb is that including windows, doors, internal and external insulation? If you are improving the level of air tightness then likely you should get a HP

    😎



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭Mr Q


    I have a NIBE and the output can be read from the unit. It was also available on the older free version of the app, not sure on the new replacement one.

    For the input I have a sub board with a meter for the HP, pumps and stats so use this figure. Not ideal but it's there if I need it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,258 ✭✭✭mel123


    yes, all of the above. Basically gutted to the brick work and start over



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭THE ALM


    As poker- -addict says I would have thought a HP would make sense. With the right level of insulation and air tightness a HP should run very well as long as it is installed and set-up correctly.

    Have you had a pre-liminary BER carried out?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,654 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    HP should make sense here, but you will either need to get very familiar with it yourself to set it up optimally or get an installer that knows what they are at, most are thrown in with default settings which tend to fine for keeping the house warm but not from a cost perspective!



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,882 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    Everything you should do for a heatpump, also applies to gas boilers to get maximum efficiency.

    Low flow temperatures, weather compensation etc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭Eleusis


    Yes makes sense, especially if you can avoid rads and do underfloor heating only. Having all lower temps is ideal for heat pumps



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 270 ✭✭mjatkey


    Hi, yes this is interesting as I've been saying for a long time why don't we run our gas/oil boilers like a HP.

    Has anyone on here ever tried turning the output of their gas boiler down to say 30deg return temp or less and run it all time with stats set high. Apart from HW having to be heated with immersion are there any issues?

    🌞 6.96kWp PV System. West Dublin🌞



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,654 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    youd need an A rated house i reckon for that to work?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭Eleusis


    I would have thought the benefits of lower flow temps is far greater in heat pumps, than in gas boilers.



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,882 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    Yeah the lower the better, - but its more for condensing boilers really.

    a gas boiler doesnt start condensing until the return drops to at least 55c

    https://www.heatgeek.com/condensing-boilers-efficiency/

    so the lower you get the more you can eek out of the gas you use. But ideally you would need to have the right sized gas boiler (often way oversized) or one that can modulate down, to stay in that condensing mode for as long as possible.

    For heatpumps it is very important, (and that is also dependant on the working gas too, R32 works really well at low temperatures, but cant do high, R290 cant beat R32 for efficiency, but can do a lot better at higher temperatures than R32 can. eg my HP can hit a 70c without needing immersions, but the COP is in the range of 2-2.5)

    Ideally you would have a hot water priority and 2 different flow temperatures so either HW heats OR the central heating heats, and a boiler that supports that.

    all you need is enough emitters.. (likely not practical, but you could just fill the room with radiators.. although that what is UFH is.)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭championc




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭championc


    I have a D / E ber rated 3 bed Semi D. Yes, my solar install would push that higher, but that's a fudge.

    Anyway, I installed a Vaillant AroTherm during the summer, and last week I had a COP of 3 and over.

    I have rads everywhere. In fact, I'm not sold on underfloor at all unless the floors will have tiles. If people lay timber floors, they should not get UFH imo. In addition, UFH cannot react the way rads can, and can take a day before a temperature change is felt. They are like the old storage heaters, just in the floor.

    It's all about replacing the heat being lost.

    So a heatpump will work in any house. But the more you insulate, then the cheaper it will be to heat that space, whether that's with gas or electricity



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,654 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    I have solid oak over our ufh and it works fine



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,892 ✭✭✭blackbox


    This may seem like a stupid question, but if an oil boiler is a better (more economical) option for a house that needs a lot of heat, why is it not a better option for a well insulated house?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭Eleusis


    Because rads have overall lower surface area that underfloor so will require a higher flow rates. Higher the temp the worse the COP



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭Eleusis


    I also have wooden floors. Works perfectly fine. Yes wood is a very slight insulator, however heat rises and thermal conductivity of wood is miniscule compared to insulation under the slab. There is only one place the heat is going and that's upwards and the wood is going to do nothing to stop it.

    Your right about slow to heat, but they are also slow to cool. Though if you plan to heat the house 24/7 there is no negative to the slow reaction time anyway. Each to their own I suppose, but I love underfloor heating and would not consider rads for a second if I had a choice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,776 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    I'm building a 45 sqm garden room.

    Will be insulated and airtight to new build standards.

    Was thinking of dedicated oil burner but I see air to air heat pump such as iqool 18000 btu quoted at about 900 euro.

    Anyone any experience of this system. Is it any good. Any better options?

    It seems cost effective and straight forward install.

    Opinions?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭Eleusis


    I have one of those icool (electriq from buyitdirect). It is in a garden room over the last few years, it was 9000btu. However it failed to heat at random times. mostly when it was needed the most). I prob could have went down the warranty route but I didn't bother. Instead maybe stupidly as one failed, I just bought another one. I know a few other people with them who haven't had issues



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72 ✭✭Borax2709


    I've a F730 - and I'm aiming to get my hands on an esphome device which can hopefully sort out some integration.

    https://github.com/elupus/esphome-nibe

    Zero progress yet - but a cheap option like https://github.com/Xinyuan-LilyGO/T-CAN485 should be able to connect and get me access.


    Just need to find some time

    Post edited by Borax2709 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,862 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    I would not use radiators again. UFH is great. However, I'd also advocate for tiles to be maximised. We have carpet, tiles, and solid wood. I know in theory it should all be the same. In the end we bias heating towards night time (night rate) so it is not going 24/7, maybe if heating was 24/7 we wouldn't differentiate between surfaces.

    😎



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,862 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    Unfortunately, this is another language for me. I hope they teach this stuff in school today.

    😎



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,882 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    I've picked up a few of them lilygo can boards, to tinker with (mainly the Emerson rectifier )

    Much easier than getting separate rs485 and esp32 dev boards



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,776 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Was that the one piece unit that just plugged in like a wall heater or was it the type that has the outdoor fan unit and piped to indoor wall unit?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭Eleusis




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,939 ✭✭✭MicktheMan


    I have been doing this with my conventional oil boiler for quite a while now. 1970's block built cavity wall bungalow, deeply renovated to PH Enerphit standard >10 years ago, official ber C1 though. Distribution is radiators only (I personally don't like UF), I can adjust the return temperature (pipestat) but it is generally set between 25 - 30degC or so. no separate space heating zones but separate DHW zone with higher flow temperature. Internal/indoor PID chronostat master controller set to 20 degC is the master controller.

    We turn heating on in Oct / Nov depending and off around end of Mar. 210 sqm bungalow using between 600 and 800 litres kero per year for space heating.

    When the time comes to replace the boiler (it's >20 years old now) I reckon I will go with a small (probably the smallest I can find) condensing oil boiler (assuming it's still allowed) for one practical reason; it is a mature technology and there is an abundance of knowledge and spare parts available locally.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 270 ✭✭mjatkey


    Impressive, and do you have any data to show that its more economical to run this way?

    We had to replace gas boiler a couple of years back so had to go the condensing route but on reading realised that most people have them set up in such a way that there is very little condensing/heat transfer taking place.

    One thing I did look at was replacing the gas with a hybrid gas/heat pump boiler (there are a few out there) but none of the plumbers I spoke to were interested/knew much about them so we stuck with the gas.

    Was looking at one of these.

    Magis Combo V2 Split Heat Pump for older homes (Combi)

    🌞 6.96kWp PV System. West Dublin🌞



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,882 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    Really comes down to, heat loss, if you want to go down the heatpump route, if you can get one to match your heat loss, do you need a second system (and still have gas bill and standing charge)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,939 ✭✭✭MicktheMan


    Impressive, and do you have any data to show that its more economical to run this way?

    No data, no but if I hadn't throttled back the boiler output I reckon my house would be uncomfortably warm at times due to the time lag between heat generation and distribution

    We had to replace gas boiler a couple of years back so had to go the condensing route but on reading realised that most people have them set up in such a way that there is very little condensing/heat transfer taking place.

    You're not wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,113 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    because the heat demand is so low.

    eg a 120 sqm Passive house needs a 1.2kW space heater generating 1800 kWh/a

    Post edited by Calahonda52 on

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,892 ✭✭✭blackbox


    Would a small (2kw) oil burning heater not be cheaper and more economical?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,113 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,374 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    Power is back since Sat evening after the storm, I had to turn back on the heating on the heat pump (Samsung gen 6) but do I need to do something to get hot water back as well? It's currently just about luke warm



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,654 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,374 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    Perfect, thanks @Cyrus Turns out I needed to specifically turn back on the heating as well



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭randombar


    Hi folks, looking for advice here.

    I've been told I need to service the HP (Ecodan) after 12 months as it won't be in warranty if I don't get it serviced annually.

    I'm chasing the original installers to do this in the first year as they never mentioned this during the sales pitch.

    On the other hand I'm wondering should I get someone else to "service" the boiler just to check the original companies work?

    Does anyone have any recommendations for a HP service agent near Cork?

    I would love to get someone out to say "ya you can reduce your flow here, you can increase this here etc" in order to maximise the return on this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭championc


    In my opinion, if you want to look at efficiency, you really need to look at the data for your own unit, as another person's settings won't necessarily match yours.

    While I am only familiar with the Vaillant AroTherm, once you have a fast flow in the system, the main thing to get right is the weather curve.

    The best way to do this is to have all downstairs fully open and calling for heat, and maybe set for 23, and for the HP to heat the room to 21 and not be able to go higher.

    If it is generating to much heat, then reduce the curve by a bit, only once per day



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭randombar


    Thanks for getting back to me, so basic steps are:

    1. Increase the flow (Is there a max/min?)
    2. Set temp to 23
    3. Reduce curve (in what way do you reduce it?)

    I think with the weather curve option on the Ecodan you couldn't "blast" heat during the cheap rate but I might be mistaken, are you not doing this?

    Apologies for the questions, very hard to find direct answers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭championc


    Look at the specs for your unit. Many units dynamically control the pump speed. I'm sure the flow rate is listed somewhere on the control panel. Maybe look at the Flow and Return temps - how far apart are they ?

    Getting the weather curve right will make life simpler as well as leading to better efficency. Sorry, I don't know about night boosting (as I have a Vaillant AroTherm)

    Look at this video and others



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,862 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    What have you guys set as max diff in supply temp (Nibe ground pump)... My compressor is going all day at lower power in mild weather. Unsure if it's degree minutes or delta T. Pump speeds are all auto and prefer to keep them auto.

    😎



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,862 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    Flat curve and fixed temp setups

    I might trial this. Current thinking but can argue against and for most points.

    Almost all installers advocate using weather comp. There is arguments that it may be better suited to continent and locations with more stable weather, while ireland can see 10 degree C swings up and down in a day.

    I read posts about boardsies with success with fixed temp. I see their logic, yet my house isnt A rated, and there is also some logic in not being totally fixed.

    Is a flattened curve the logically compromise?

    I am thinking my home probably works very well 70% of the time at 34C supply temperature, plus or minus 2 degrees would cover 90% of days.

    I am not sure how much of a factor it is in the nordics, but I sense it is just very difficult to optimise if solving for a day/night electricity rate.

    Water return temps are fighting on three fronts on any given day 1) changing weather (outside our control, ignoring amazing) 2) schedule pushing usage towards electricity night rate, and 3) a heat pump target temp based on a curve which is in flux daily in ireland, and then add weather comp too which will help sometimes, and other times will amplify discomfort. Throw in variable speed circulation pumps and modulating compressors and it requires artificial intelligence to analyse.

    It requires brain power and time to think about it, people with limited interest have no hope…..must be a better way for these systems to be intuitive. Even if fixed temperature is not the most economic on paper, it does remove a bunch of variables, making it easier to control the controllable.

    😎



Advertisement