Heat Pumps - post here.

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122867081#Comment_122867081

If the house was built to PH standards, why did you need an 8kW heat pump

What were the key PHPP numbers?

193m2 at 15 KWh/m2 pa gives you 2895 kWh/a

and

193 at 10 W/m2 gives 1.93 kW so a @kW heater would have done the heating:

DHW is hardly 6?

Exiled Rebel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122900842#Comment_122900842

I know. I used the PHPP tool when building the house, however trying to convince the engineer was another thing.

Instead of cycling repeatedly the thermia heat pump seems to throttle down to manage the output. Apart from the really cold weather recently when it had to work hard it appears to be just ticking over. For the month of November (if I didn't have solar) it would have cost me on average €12 per week in electricity. Solar however, for the month of November, has reduced the bill by between 20 and 25%.

It's due it first service next September.

graememk

Really depends on how low the hp can turn itself down to, my 12 kW goes down to about 3.5kW minimum,

And dealing with underfloor heating instead of radiators there's much more thermal mass to heat. Preventing short cycling.

If the 8 can go low enough it may only be running for a while every couple of hours.

Having the power to heat the DHW helps then too.

chris1970

Hi we got a nibe fighter 1240 16 years old finding it hard getting anyone to check or service it now, temperature sensor on the brine in reading 74c - anyone recommendations how to check it ? Also Is there a grant available for replacement heat pump sorry for quick questions

Exiled Rebel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122902410#Comment_122902410

The heat pump came on 11 times since midnight last night and not at all since 1:43pm.

As of 11:08pm tonight it has used 3.7kWh in the past 23 hours or the equivalent of 78 cents worth of electricity based on my current tariff.

The temperature according to the outside thermostat which the heating system uses is reading 12 degrees Celsius.

VonLuck

I just got a quote of €16k (ex. VAT and grant) for a monobloc 4kW air-to-water heat pump and 200 litre tank in my home to replace my gas boiler system. While my knowledge of heat pumps is limited, to me this seems extortionate! I was expecting half the cost of this.

As a cost saving measure I was thinking of just keeping my old water tank. This would just then require the removal of my old gas boiler and installation of the external monobloc system, right? Or maybe some kind of new manifold in my hot press?

Dozz

Here is a good video for anyone thinking of installing a heat pump into an existing property.

Gives you an idea of what any installer should be doing prior to installing.

https://youtu.be/3l1tbEwBjcc?si=wyK95S4psM1kM2yd

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122938733#Comment_122938733

16k seems extortionate.

That buys a lot of gas/oil

VonLuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122938902#Comment_122938902

Exactly! It would take well over 50 years for it to pay itself back. I was wondering if I was missing something, but a monobloc system is a relatively easy install, right?

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122939025#Comment_122939025

Yeah it's fairly straightforward @championc has a thread of his self install on the plumbing sub forum.

You current tank may not have a good enough coil in it though for the hp to run properly to heat hot water.

newhouse87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122938733#Comment_122938733

Got my while house plumbed including ufh and 11kw heatpump for 18k.

VonLuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122939089#Comment_122939089

I didn't realise that could be a potential issue. Noted. That could be say €2k for a tank and say €4k for the monobloc heat pump? Then €2k for miscellaneous pipework/connections and install? Does €8k sound closer to reality?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122939131#Comment_122939131

Did that include a new water tank? I'm getting quoted pretty much the same for just a 4kW pump and water cylinder! No new rads or anything.

newhouse87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122939206#Comment_122939206

Was new build 3years ago. 300l tank. I know prices gone up but not that much Low temp split hp.

VonLuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122938779#Comment_122938779

That's very useful, thanks. That guy mentions that most house pipework is 22mm diameter but would need to be 28mm for heat pumps to heat radiators. Is that true? Would a complete replumbing be required?

championc

I have 1 x 1" from the heatpump splitting into 2 x 3/4" to upstairs and downstairs. Each rad is then a 1/2" off this 3/4" backbone on each floor

THE ALM

@VonLuck The 16k seems high alright. We had quotes ranging from about 10-14k for a 8kW heat pump and 250l cylinder installed inc. VAT ex. grant. The variation was due to the actual heat pump make and model.

We have used the existing pipework which is 3/4"mm with 1/2" branching off for the rads and 3/4" for the cylinder coil.

If you have not already, it is worth checking out Heat Geeks and Urban Plumbers on Y/T.

We will see after winter but we are very happy with how it is performing.

VonLuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122942246#Comment_122942246

I'm wondering now if they were quoting for a One Stop Shop arrangement and they padded it with things that I didn't request.

I've checked out those channels alright. Very useful.

I'm looking to go with a Daikin Altherma 3M. Seems to tick all the boxes but maybe I should check other places that supply them for a better quote.

dominatinMC

Can anyone here recommend someone to do a full heat pump analysis/service? I have a Mitsubishi Ecodan which seems to be running fine (from what I can tell), but I'd like someone to take a look - to confirm. Mitsubishi themselves provide a service, but it costs €250 which seems steep. If there's no alternative, I will go for it, but if someone here can recommend someone, I would appreciate it.

ECO_Mental

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122948155#Comment_122948155

I get my heat pump serviced every year and costs me €250 and well worth it…its an expensive piece of kit and it does alot so you need to look after it. Mine costs a bit more because I have an anode as I have my borehole and that needs replaceing.

€250 sounds ok

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122948155#Comment_122948155

I had mine (a Samsung) serviced last week, cost 150 cash.

The service seems to consist of checking the gylcol levels (and water content of glycol I think), checking the filters and doing a check of the flowrates on each loop. Took ~ an hour

dominatinMC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122948232#Comment_122948232

Fair enough. Good to hear the opinion of others, just for reassurance and to make sure I wasn't getting ripped off with the €250 price tag. I'll go with Mitsubishis own service so.

championc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122948266#Comment_122948266

Interesting. So no actually part of the heatpump itself is checked ? I assume the filter is on the return pipe, and would be a strainer and magnetic ? Flow rates would be on the controller display and could possibly only be affected by a blocked filter. So both go hand in hand. And just looking at the optics on the UFH loops - but not much you can do to adjust those surely ?

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122948642#Comment_122948642

Yeah, there wasn't any major checks on the pump itself as far as I could see

ECO_Mental

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122948642#Comment_122948642

Mine is a Samsung as well and I must dig out the check sheet he goes through when servicing and post it. But yeah he checks all of the above (glycol, filters etc) but he does change the anode as well, he opens up the condenser unit checks for wear and tear, filters, signs of corrosion etc as far as I can see its fairly thorough and what the manufacture/supplier requires to be compliant with the warranty.

I will post up the check sheet later

championc

Maybe some day there will be the car equivalent of an ODBII reader.

Checks might spot a leaking seal or joint, but I don't think that those sort of checks can in any way prolong the life of the unit.

The only preventive item that can possibly be checked is the gas level / pressure. But I don't think I would want the cap even opened as a tiny amount of gas is then lost connecting and disconnecting the hoses and dials.

The Vaillant only has a cup full of R290, so I don't want to lose a drop of that, given the small initial quantity.

ECO_Mental

Here is the checklist my heatpump guy does, its a samsung service report template. the second page is justs few notes. The pressure was down on the system and he topped it up. Only had to top up the pressure once over the year myself and that was only in the last few weeks. There are so many valves I was a bit nervous doing it….

I dont think there is any need to be stripping down anything but just checking everyting is working as it should and checking for wear and tear. But it does take an hour or more, I also have an anode to replace so thats an extra €50 so €250 in total.

I think it worth it for piece of mind, this machine consumes a lot of energy so needs to be running as per spec and is expensive if it ever broke so you need to look after it.

championc

I wasn't aware that you can force a defrost cycle

ECO_Mental

Ive been changing my HP strategy from the last three years where I just left it do its thing, eg if a room needed heat it turned on and if the DHW water needed topping up then the HP came on. I did turn off the heating from end of March to October/Novemeber so no heating then. But I switched to a Smart Tarriff back in October and I wanted to use the 6.33cent rate as much as possible and I started to do a bit more reaserch eg Heat Geek etc and the big thing he said was get rid of Zones problem was I had 12!

Anyway I moved my hot water do not on demand to but to the EV rate as much as possible but I also turned off the space heating on demand to set times. I also decided to reduce the zones by artifically setting rooms at a bit higher set temp so most if not all the zones call for heat. If the HP is on then it may as well heat the whole lot.. I do this especailly at EV rate where all the zones are on and I build up thermal mass and this lasts me well into the afternoon.

I then have the heating coming on at 7pm (just after peak rates) and I heat down stairs as one zone and then upstairs…I also overlap them by 15-20mins and I have noticed something over the last week or so. When all the other zones switch on the power output of the HP drops significantly (I have a 12kW Samsung) to where I am getting COPs of 4+ it can go down to 2.5-2.8 kW. At night this backs it up where I have all zones on the power output in the HP is in the 3kW range.

I am still messing around with this and have plans to automate all my thermosats so I have better control and I am probably over heating a bit but I dont want her indoors to be complaining.

My aim is cost reduction not so much energy reduction and since I have changed my cost/kWh of my HP has dropped significantly…

My average daily cost is also trending lower.. BUT this has been a very mid winter so far and we will see the true results some next March/April

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122966064#Comment_122966064

Could it be using a immersion at the start to boost the heating as possibly it is thinking it's too far behind at the start, and can't get at its set flow temperature?

championc

The one thing that every knowledgeable person says is that downstairs should be open loop.

With weather compensation and correctly sized or correctly tuned / balanced emitters, it should be possible that it runs constantly, where the heat output matches Heatloss.

Obviously, while going open loop, you are limiting your ON times. If a unit was oversized, that might make sense in that you will run at a higher flow temperature to build up the thermal mass of heat over a short period of time without weather comp, rather than it being unable to run constantly at minimum.

Since you have now gone open loop, it might be worth experimenting too with a long day run at a lower constant flow (if the unit can do it), and use weather comp too.

Overall, experimentation combined with data is the only way to find the best mode of operation

newhouse87

Open loop is the only way to go, took off all actuator heads in my second winter(last year) and also ditched weather comp. Have 1 stat that can be programmed torun consistently for a period of time. In cold weather maybe start at 11pm(night rate and turn off at noon so 13 hours. Means house is warm when we get up and 21//22 come evening time

I run fixed flow usually 29/30deg, but now with cheaper night rate i run at 31 and house toasty 24hours. When real cold spell hits, i imagine i will; just run for couple hours longer.

The de-zoning and running at lowest fixed flow that doesn't introduce much cycling has dramatically changed my consumption. As eco said it makes no sense for HP to work hard to heat 1 room, then start process all over again when another room calls for heat dew hours later.

Slight tangent but if like me you are/were seeing high consumption it could be down to a fault, my first 2 years, the hp was turning on by itself and using up to 6kwh/hr in middle of the night. It took many phone calls and eventually a Daikin technical lead informed the person i was dealing with, a setting on a small number of units left the factory enabled when it should have been disabled. Had to go deep into installer mode over the phone to re-code a parameter. Not all heat pumps are commissioned correctly.

ECO_Mental

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122966360#Comment_122966360

Dont think so as the circuit I am logging is just the HP outdoor unit, when the legionalla cycle comes on that runs off the imersion coil as I can see 2kW for 1 hour at 2am on a Monday night on my utility room circuit.

I forgot I have a Aquara Zigbee button temp sensor just lying on top of the supply pipe going to the manifold so is logging the heating flow temps. I wouldnt say its that accurate but it gives an idea of temps.

Anyway the evening temp rises up to about 31degs, but at night it only goes up to 25deg. But I think these are a couple degs lower than they acually are since its just a zigbee sensor not designed for pipe temps..

I am runing weather compensation as well, well the HP is telling me its on and I have checked the settings.

I might mess around with it again and maybe have the whole house on in the evening as well, but I felt that it was taking too long to heat up downstairs just as we were sitting down to watch TV. I have another spare Zigbee temp sensor and I might put this on the return temp..

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122966916#Comment_122966916

I was thinking more of an internal immersion in the HP itself. I know the mitsubishi ones do that by default, If it cant rise to the flow temperature fast enough it kicks in the aux heater.

Could you pull up a graph of the flow temperature and the power one, even from multiple days to see if there is any correlation. It is just that the power drops so fast rather than a ramp down

saleem

Hi all!

I need some help, I have a Panasonic heat pump and it is series G which is not compatible with the adaptor which will allow it to connect to WiFi so I could control it from the phone. I was wondering if I can install a smart thermostat which will allow me to control it from the phone and who can install it for me?

championc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123029322#Comment_123029322

Does that Panasonic have Weather Compensation ? If so, you really shouldn't need to ever change anything if it's setup correctly I would have thought.

Similarly, ideally there should be no house controls in place, and the whole idea is that the heatpump produces the necessary heat to replace the heat lost - so certainly the downstairs should really be open loop.

saleem

Sorry if I wasn't clear, basically my water is hot 24/7 which is all cool I basically want to control the heating as it comes on and off automatically but I want to change the timing of the heating and that part I can't do myself as I'm visually impaired and an app would come in handy just to control the heating. I'm not sure what open loop means as I have not gotten a clue what these mean at all. there were previous people in the house so it looks like they might have setup the timing of the heating them self from the thermostat which is in the hot press upstairs. I’m not saying I want to turn off the unit itself but just to control the heating timings.

championc

Open loop = all zones / TRV's / thermostats are open, calling for heat PERMANENTLY

The point is that there should really be no timers or thermostats on heatpumps. They should run 24 x 7, albeit with a lower overnight temperature.

I'm sure that not ever unit can be connected to the Internet, and some which can can require expensive kit to get them connected.

championc

Useful video if you have a heatpump and zones and / or TRV's

https://youtu.be/zpTVIeUh04E?si=cqmVeFPdxVaeTQYl

DelE30

Hi folks,

I have a Joule / Samsung Gen 6 heat pump installed in 102m2 A2 rated new build. 2 zones, UFH downstairs at 21C, rads upstairs at 19C. Worried the heat pump is not setup / running correctly.

Below is consumption and generation for last week. If system is running at COP or 3 or 4, should generation figures be roughly 3x or 4x the consumption?

I know water law parameters are set to default but I'm struggling to understand what I should set these to to improve efficiency and increase COP. Any help here is greatly appreciated!

System runs for 10+ during this cold spell to maintain 21C downstairs and has been averaging 24kwh consumption this week.

poker--addict

Nibe S1156, not clear how to see energy consumption and output for efficiency, or how best to view data over time. My uplink app has a premium subscription though not sure how usable data is in that form. Anyone have their nibe tracked?

ECO_Mental

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123040422#Comment_123040422

I think they are ok numbers 24kWh/day for the really cold weather we had…so you are doing ok. They might be a bit high for the size of your house but nothing crazy.

DelE30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123040650#Comment_123040650

Thanks for the feedback! Mostly worried about consumption / generation figures equalling each other. Would have thought generation should be 2-3x consumption at a minimum. Perhaps it's just a sensor error or something not reading correctly?

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123040718#Comment_123040718

They are not exactly equal, so it does seem like its reading 2 different things

it is strange that they are so close though…

championc

Hey @DelE30 I am looking specifically at 2 Jan - am I reading it right that 24kWh consumed generated 28.9kWh of heat ? If so, that heat generation is horrific.

I too run for a portion of the day, but our house isn't great for insulation. Excluding any BER benefits (which distort figures) we are about a D or E. We used 26kWh on Wednesday and generated 76kWh of heat.

So with 25kWh of power, a COP of 3 generates 75kWh of heat

jdaltonglin

Hi All,

I am 2 months living in our new build house which has a Bosch 7001i 9kW Heat Pump and a Vent Axia Kenetic High Flow MVHR. There are stats in most rooms, it is a two story and 221m2.

Anyway being in the house for a few months and finding it hard to get my head around the system. We like a house relatively cool and the sweet spot for us seems to be about 19.5degrees. We find 21 degrees too high for example.

We had the main controller on the Heat Pump set to 21deg to start with and have over the past few months reduced this to 18.5deg. And in the rooms we have reduced all these to 18.5deg as well.

The issue we are having is that the the changes made to the main controller and the rooms don't seem to have made any difference. The upstairs sits at roughly 21.5deg and downstairs at roughly 21deg. In addition with the bad weather recently - we got lots of snow, the system seems to be working in overdrive and has upstairs up to 22.5deg and downstairs around 22deg.

So basically I am wondering if anyone has any experience of this in their house with a similar set-up or any advice with what may work to reduce the house temperature down a bit.

Now I have done a bit of research and from what I can tell the Heat pump works solely off the outside temperature. It is not connected up at all the the room stats. The rooms stats are only hooked up to the MVHR system. It looks like the Heat Pump looks at the outside temperature and decides based on curves the amount of heat the house needs. I know it can be hooked up to a single internal reference point but not sure how that works etc.

There are lots of things in the Heat pump settings I could play with - different setting for night and day using something called "setback"? I could change the curve used to compensate for outside temperature, or another thing I saw was something to do with the house itself, whether it is Heavy, Medium or Light - in some way relating to the wall thickness I believe. Its currently set to Medium.. so I could set it to heavy?

Also no idea how the MVHR interact with all this, if all rooms are higher than the temperature you set for each stat.. does it do anything?

Doesn't seem to be any resources for this online in Irish/British weather set-ups. So any info I can get of anyone here would be very much appreciated.

MacDanger

I have a Samsung gen 6 also and mine looks like this:

So a COP of 2.85.

On the face of it, it seems like there might be something amiss with your setup

dylbert

I also have a question regarding a Joule/Samsung Gen 6. Have been living with it over the past 4 years and over that time have played around with the water law settings to get the flow temperature as low as possible while still heating the house. I have it dialled in fairly well now and our energy consumption is a lot less than when we first moved into the house. Issue is that every time it’s being serviced the technicians keep increasing the flow temperatures, when I ask why I am being told the the system isn’t designed to run continuously and should be cycling off and on regularly to reduce running times. This goes against all the advice I’ve seen about heat pumps.

DelE30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123041617#Comment_123041617

Yes, it's pretty shocking. Trying in vain to get an engineer from Joule out to the house to have a look. Hoping I can get an update early next week.

If anyone has any experience with similar issues to this, all help is appreciated.

ECO_Mental

Dont know what ye fellas are at but Im getting a COP of 46….

Beat that!

championc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123041638#Comment_123041638

@jdaltonglin look for the weather curve value and reduce it.

The weather curve SETS the flow temperature based on the outside temperature.

The water temperature dynamically changes, but it sounds like you are constantly too high.

There should be a graph in a manual