Gerry Adams for President?

cson · 03-12-2008 5:27pm #1

Time for procrastination, in the course of my studying of the Irish Presidency (otherwise known as "101 on how to rot your shite") one of the reforms proposed was that the nomination process require only 10 Members of the houses of the Oireachtas to go forward (rather than the current 20).

This is seemingly a reason why Sinn Fein haven't been able to nominate Gerry Adams despite attempting to (afaik). Bringing the nomination process down to 10 members would put this right in sights of SF, who currently have 4 TDs but in the current political maelstorm could possibly tip the 10 come 2012. Wich would allow them to nominate Adams for President of Ireland.

Now this is all hypothethicals and is extremely unlikely to occur given the fact I don't think the Irish people would vote for a Sinn Fein leader even if he was nominated.

Still though, its a very intriguing possibility.

irish_bob · 03-12-2008 5:37pm

cson wrote: »

Time for procrastination, in the course of my studying of the Irish Presidency (otherwise known as "101 on how to rot your shite") one of the reforms proposed was that the nomination process require only 10 Members of the houses of the Oireachtas to go forward (rather than the current 20).

This is seemingly a reason why Sinn Fein haven't been able to nominate Gerry Adams despite attempting to (afaik). Bringing the nomination process down to 10 members would put this right in sights of SF, who currently have 4 TDs but in the current political maelstorm could possibly tip the 10 come 2012. Wich would allow them to nominate Adams for President of Ireland.

Now this is all hypothethicals and is extremely unlikely to occur given the fact I don't think the Irish people would vote for a Sinn Fein leader even if he was nominated.

Still though, its a very intriguing possibility.

scrap the presidency entirely

Cpaw · 03-12-2008 5:38pm

If I had a gun, I'd shoot you.

Permabear · 03-12-2008 5:42pm

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sink · 03-12-2008 5:46pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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Tiocfaidh ár lá

cson · 03-12-2008 5:51pm

irish_bob wrote: »

scrap the presidency entirely

I take your point but I wouldn't be for that, however I'd love to see a cost-benefit anaylsis of the position. However scrapping it will never happen, due in the main to the need for a "Head of State" figure along with the history associated with the postion and thats not even to mention the fact that it is the foundation for 2 articles of the constitution. Also, I don't believe the Irish people would ever vote to scrap it if it did go to referendum.

Cpaw wrote: »

If I had a gun, I'd shoot you.

Excellent input.

donegalfella wrote: »

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If the reforms suggested by the All Party Oireachtas Committee Report on the President were followed its quite credible that Gerry Adams could be nominated to run for President. Now again I don't think he'd be elected in a million years but he still could run for the post.

Basically the point I'm making, and what struck me while I was sifting through all the ****e, is how easy in theory it could be for someone like Adams to run for President.

cson · 03-12-2008 5:52pm

sink wrote: »

Tiocfaidh ár lá

Seriously, is this the Politics forum or After Hours?

Grow up.

AnonoBoy · 03-12-2008 5:55pm

sink wrote: »

Tiocfaidh ár lá

A valuable valuable contribution. Were you sporting a 'Sniper at Work' t-shirt while typing that post?

I don't believe Adams will ever be elected President. His past as part of the IRA would put most people off voting for him for that position I believe.

Hangballlouie · 03-12-2008 5:57pm

Paisley has a better chance of getting into the park than Adams.

sink · 03-12-2008 5:58pm

cson wrote: »

Seriously, is this the Politics forum or After Hours?

Grow up.

It was an answer to a direct question. "How can you propose appointing a former IRA terrorist as an international ambassador and supreme commander of the Defence Forces?" My point being that the political significance of electing a former terrorist to head of state is of minor consideration to those who are still campaigning for a united Ireland. Tiocfaidh ár lá (Our day will come).

jill_valentine · 03-12-2008 5:59pm

Over my dead body.

...

Wait...

cson · 03-12-2008 6:06pm

According to this one the of the SF strategys pre-elections 07 was for Adams to run for President. They hoped to secure 10-15 Dail seats.

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2007/10/10/the-next-president-of-ireland-if-only-sf-had-had-20-oireachtas-members-if-only-they-had-the-support-of-independents-and-small-parties-and-the-easter-bunny-and-the-fine-gael-ard-fheis-or-the-i/

Frankie Lee · 03-12-2008 6:20pm

I'd like to see him run for President, if he did I'd imagine he'd give the main parties and Dana a run for their money. I can't see anyone in Fianna Fail/ Fine Gael with such a high profile. Unless Bertie runs of course.

On the IRA slander that people are throwing, it is true he led the IRA for many years but he along with Charlie Haughey are the two people who deserve the most credit for the peace process. So credit where credit is due.

Permabear · 03-12-2008 6:34pm

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turgon · 03-12-2008 6:36pm

Cpaw wrote: »

If I had a gun, I'd shoot you.

Is that you Gerry?

Permabear · 03-12-2008 6:44pm

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The_Minister · 03-12-2008 6:45pm

Frankie Lee, are you honestly saying that the terrorist should be praised and rewarded for no longer killing people, as the man who convinces him to stop?

Really?

Really?

bmaxi · 03-12-2008 6:50pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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If I didn't know it was 2008, I'd swear you were referring to Eamon De Valera.

Hagar · 03-12-2008 6:51pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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Have any of the many allegations against Gerry Adams ever been proved in a court of law? If not they are unfounded and probably slanderous. IMHO most of these accusations are made by Pseudo-Republican Fiann Failures who fear meeting real Republicans at the polls.

Anyway our current President was born in Belfast so a precendent of including our seperated brethern has already been set, who knows where it will lead. We could end up with a Unionist President.

Permabear · 03-12-2008 7:01pm

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Liam Byrne · 03-12-2008 7:05pm

Hagar wrote: »

Have any of the many allegations against Gerry Adams ever been proved in a court of law?

The relevant "allegation" in this thread was....

On the IRA slander that people are throwing, it is true he led the IRA for many years

I don't know if that's true (and even his own story has varied depending on whether or not it suits him to be a member) but if he WAS a member (or worse still, a leading figure) of an illegal terrorist/criminal organisation, then that should rule him out.

Plus he'd have a MAJOR source of confusion - isn't the President the head of OUR "Oglaigh na hEireann" ?

Having said all that, plus the fact that I'd probably emigrate if we were ever to be "represented" by someone who always claimed to represent us even when we hated his actions, I have to say that - on "mature recollection" - Fianna Fail have proposed shady characters for lots of things over the years, and succeeded in getting them elected.

So a dodgy scumbag being elected would be nothing new. True, being fairly directly involved in killings and/or sectarianism, and visiting criminal scum and murderers in jail would be a new level, but nothing would surprise me when it comes to the electorate in this country.....nothing!

Poccington · 03-12-2008 7:06pm

Hagar wrote: »

Have any of the many allegations against Gerry Adams ever been proved in a court of law? If not they are unfounded and probably slanderous. IMHO most of these accusations are made by Pseudo-Republican Fiann Failures who fear meeting real Republicans at the polls.

Anyway our current President was born in Belfast so a precendent of including our seperated brethern has already been set, who knows where it will lead. We could end up with a Unionist President.

So you have to take someone to court just prove they were a terrorist? By the way, I struggle to see how Gerry Adams is even close to a "Real Republican".

If Gerry Adams was to ever become President and in turn Supreme Commander of The Defence Forces, I would very much be thinking twice about staying in my job.

jill_valentine · 03-12-2008 7:12pm

I love that the question is never "Was Gerry Adams in the IRA?".

It's only ever "Was it proven that Gerry Adams was in the IRA?"

Mr.Micro · 03-12-2008 7:19pm

If Gerry Adams was President what guard of honour would he like? 2 rows of paramilitaries, dark glasses optional but balaclavas obligatory.

Liam Byrne · 03-12-2008 7:20pm

jill_valentine wrote: »

I love that the question is never "Was Gerry Adams in the IRA?".

Please define "never". I said as much just 2 posts ago.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I don't know if that's true

I view him as scum ever since he got photos taken with, and campaigned for the release of, murderers, but if you read my post I've given him the benefit of the doubt on actual "membership" of that illegal organisation. I'd ask the question directly, but like I said, even the man himself seems to vary his answer.

Some might say that's naieve, but, as I said, there's plenty of facts and reasons to not want him representing us even without the actual membership.

And we've almost forgotten the obvious; he's never run, been voted for, or campaigned for election in this country.

GuanYin · 03-12-2008 7:26pm

Report posts if you have problems with them.

Comments in thread will lead to infractions.

Hagar · 03-12-2008 7:27pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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So if a person doesn't resort to legal action to protect his good name then he must be guilty of the accusation? What legal system are you working under?

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I don't know if that's true (and even his own story has varied depending on whether or not it suits him to be a member) but if he WAS a member (or worse still, a leading figure) of an illegal terrorist/criminal organisation, then that should rule him out.

Most of the early politicians who ran this country following it's foundation were members of the self-same illegal organisations.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Plus he'd have a MAJOR source of confusion - isn't the President the head of OUR "Oglaigh na hEireann" ?

"Our" Oglaigh na hÉireann is a direct decendant, albeit a split, from "their" original Oglaigh na hEireann. If memory serves me "their" OnE won the freedom for us that we enjoy today.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Having said all that, plus the fact that I'd probably emigrate if we were ever to be "represented" by someone who always claimed to represent us even when we hated his actions, I have to say that - on "mature recollection" - Fianna Fail have proposed shady characters for lots of things over the years, and succeeded in getting them elected.

Never a truer word written.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So a dodgy scumbag being elected would be nothing new. True, being fairly directly involved in killings and/or sectarianism, and visiting criminal scum and murderers in jail would be a new level, but nothing would surprise me when it comes to the electorate in this country.....nothing!

Criminals is it? Have we all forgotten the Tribunals and who was involved in them? How many of them involved SF?

Poccington wrote: »

So you have to take someone to court just prove they were a terrorist?

Not a question of GA proving he wasn't a terrorist. Under Irish libel laws you have to prove he was.

Poccington wrote: »

By the way, I struggle to see how Gerry Adams is even close to a "Real Republican".

Why?

Poccington wrote: »

If Gerry Adams was to ever become President and in turn Supreme Commander of The Defence Forces, I would very much be thinking twice about staying in my job.

In this economic climate I would not advise anyone to give up a State job.

Nodin · 03-12-2008 7:36pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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The same way we appointed a former IRA "terrorist" Minister for Foriegn and let him trot off to the UN the odd time, where he became one our most influential politicians abroad?

The same way we elected a fair few to the dail as FF tds?

Liam Byrne · 03-12-2008 7:37pm

Hagar wrote: »

Criminals is it? Have we all forgotten the Tribunals and who was involved in them? How many of them involved SF?

No argument here. But if you read my post you would see that I'd said that Adams would take things to a whole new level.

Tribunals deal with corruption and white-collar crime.

Courts deal with bank robberies and murder.

Saying that there've been no links to tribunals from SF is spin in the extreme; if Bertie or Ray Burke or Charlie Haughey or Liam Lawlor or whoever had been quizzed over murder, Gerry would have been in there getting his photo taken and campaigning for their release.

Nodin · 03-12-2008 7:41pm

The_Minister wrote: »

Frankie Lee, are you honestly saying that the terrorist should be praised and rewarded for no longer killing people, as the man who convinces him to stop?
Really?
Really?

And sure why not. Nobody blinks at eye at Nelson Mandela, yet I remember when he and the ANC were listed as terrorists by the Yanks. And I'm only 39.

Permabear · 03-12-2008 7:48pm

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Permabear · 03-12-2008 7:57pm

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cooperguy · 03-12-2008 8:31pm

bmaxi wrote:

If I didn't know it was 2008, I'd swear you were referring to Eamon De Valera.

If you honestly think those situations are the same then you need a serious history lesson

Fratton Fred · 03-12-2008 8:51pm

if he did become president of "The Republic of Ireland" would that not be in effect recognising that "The South" is a "Republic". I thought SF did not consider it a legitimate state because it only covers 26 of the 32 counties and refused to call it the Republic.

Or something like that anyway.

Permabear · 03-12-2008 9:07pm

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Nodin · 03-12-2008 9:25pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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Why was it a mistake? Take the first instance I mentioned and be precise, if you would.

cson · 03-12-2008 9:26pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

if he did become president of "The Republic of Ireland" would that not be in effect recognising that "The South" is a "Republic". I thought SF did not consider it a legitimate state because it only covers 26 of the 32 counties and refused to call it the Republic.

Or something like that anyway.

Official title of the office is "President of Ireland" not President of the Republic of Ireland. So in effect he wouldn't technically cede anything. It harks back to when the Constitution was drafted in 1937, it has since been amended by the good friday agreement to remove the claim to NI, but the title of President hasn't been changed.

On an aside, the reform committee also proposed 10,000 signatures or ballot cards be sufficient for nomination so he could get in that way too, I'm sure there are at least 10,000 SF empathisers in the land.

Tbh, I didn't really mean for this thread to descend into a "should he/shouldn't" be eligible for President argument. I mean't to use him as an example. Personally I'd be against the 10,000 signatures reform as a way for nomination as it'd throw up a lot of frivilous nominations. Boards.ie could probably have someone run President that way.

Permabear · 03-12-2008 9:30pm

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Fratton Fred · 03-12-2008 9:30pm

cson wrote: »

Tbh, I didn't really mean for this thread to descend into a "should he/shouldn't" be eligible for President argument. I mean't to use him as an example. Personally I'd be against the 10,000 signatures reform as a way for nomination as it'd throw up a lot of frivilous nominations. Boards.ie could probably have someone run President that way.

A Boards campaign to get one of the BGRH brothers elected as President, I like it :cool:

Nodin · 03-12-2008 9:32pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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Frank Aiken, for example. Why was his political career a "mistake"?

cson · 03-12-2008 9:33pm

Thats what I mean about allowing 10,000 signatures/ballot cards to qualify someone for to run for President. It'd be fooking crazy.

No offence to the brothers or anything.

jill_valentine · 03-12-2008 9:33pm

Sorry cson.

I do definitely think the Presidential selection system needs major reform, after the farce last time around. I doubt it'll happen though.

pierrot · 03-12-2008 9:36pm

no,no,no

Permabear · 03-12-2008 9:39pm

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cson · 03-12-2008 9:41pm

jill_valentine wrote: »

Sorry cson.

I do definitely think the Presidential selection system needs major reform, after the farce last time around. I doubt it'll happen though.

Its actually not that badly run an office and wouldn't need much reform at all. In fact the Canadians use it as a template in their arguments to set up their own Presidential office (They're still represented by Queen Elizabeth as their defacto Head of State amazingly).

Basically having studied it all day today very little needs to be changed about the office only (a) The nomination process (To avoid a repeat of the last "election") and (b) The age limit.

Permabear · 03-12-2008 9:46pm

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cson · 03-12-2008 9:50pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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I fully agree, I'm only stating what the Constitution says, and if you had quoted the entirety of that post you would have realised that. According to the Constitution of the country the title of President is "President of Ireland".

Of course nowadays it is largely irrelevant and is not worth the effort to put the article to referendum as it is a minor matter. Of course during the height of the troubles it was a contentious issue with President Hillary and O'Kelly (?) refused permission by the Govt to travel to English ceremonies.

The Good Friday agreement has set in stone the North regarding jurisdiction and this is unlikely, if ever, to change.

Phototoxin · 03-12-2008 10:03pm

Sorry, but someone with Adams' background will never be Ireland's head of state. How can you propose appointing a former IRA terrorist as an international ambassador and supreme commander of the Defence Forces?

at least he'd be more qualified. Anyway the president doesn't do a lot anyway.

Nodin · 03-12-2008 10:05pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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And that would be because of....? the flares and sideburns....?

Jack Sheehan · 03-12-2008 10:24pm

If he ever did become president, I would be profoundly ashamed of my country.

bmaxi · 03-12-2008 10:54pm

cooperguy wrote: »

If you honestly think those situations are the same then you need a serious history lesson

All a matter of perception, dear boy.