why do you vote FF/FG

bigstar

wondering what makes people vote for one of the two big parties. they seem to me to be similar in ideology. do most people vote for them because their family do or is there a another reason.

Het-Field

Realistically, there is little alternative.

In the 1990s if one was unhappy with the norm, they could turn to the Progressive Democrats or the Green Party. That alternative has been jettisoned, as the Green's have become more FF than FF themselves, while the PDs have been sent to the political wilderness.

It is simply down to who I trust. In 2007 (Dublin South West) I voted Fianna Fail to ensure that the PDs were back in Government. I was also conscious that I trusted FF considerably more. However, this has changed over the past 18 months. The revelations about Bertie, Lenihan's woeful budget (and subsequent series of recoiling), their Lisbon Treaty Campaign, Cowan's resorting to citing Fine Gael's lack of achievement, and Fianna Fail general willingness to publicly stick their head in the sand, have contributed to this change of mindset.


Other than that there is no considerable difference between Fianna Fail, and Fine Gael, only the faux left wing image which FF like to proffer

sink

I generally vote on the person running for local office and don't pay much attention to party affiliation as there is really not much of a difference between any of them (Except SF/SWP). I look to intelligence and honesty as primary attributes amongst other lesser ones. If everyone was to do the same then the party with the best candidates would be in the majority and isn't that the real aim of democracy?

Permabear

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LordSutch

I agree with most of what has already been said, and I too would vote for either of the main Parties FF/FG (Labour & Greens) maybe? but definately Not SF. Traditionally my Family would have been FG, but currently
I find Enda lacking any kind of 'Punch', thus giving Cowan a free hand > even though change is in the air!

Shame FG dont have a stronger leader right now.

Shame Pat Rabbitte is missing from the Dail too

Shame the PDs have gone.

Frankie Lee

I voted Jack Wall of Labour 1st preference in the last GE as he has a reputation for doing great work in the community, I vote the two FF candidates 2nd and 3rd and at the time of voting I was under the illusion that there would be a FF labour coalition.
I would disagree fundamentally with FG policies similar as they are with FF that was why I was hoping that the PD's would not be in government and FF would take a move to the left.

It was hopeful and naive thinking on my part.

Permabear

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Frankie Lee

donegalfella wrote: »

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I was told by a prominent member of Fianna Fail that there would be a FF Labour government which at the time a lot of Labour people would have agreed with it but apparantly Pat Rabbitte would not budge.

I do disagree with Fianna Fails policies but FG would be more successful in implementing there agenda which would be worse for the country in my eyes.

sink

Frankie Lee wrote: »

I was told by a prominent member of Fianna Fail that there would be a FF Labour government which at the time a lot of Labour people would have agreed with it but apparantly Pat Rabbitte would not budge.

I do disagree with Fianna Fails policies but FG would be more successful in implementing there agenda which would be worse for the country in my eyes.

Ah so your are voting for FF because they are inept, interesting.

Frankie Lee

sink wrote: »

Ah so your are voting for FF because they are inept, interesting.

I disagree with privatisation and FG would have been more successful in implementing it.

sink

Frankie Lee wrote: »

I disagree with privatisation and FG would have been more successful in implementing it.

Makes sense I guess.

turgon

sink wrote: »

I generally vote on the person running for local office and don't pay much attention to party affiliation

Dont you think thats a bit naive considering how little power backbenchers have and the hard core party loyalty in the Dail?

Phototoxin

In my lifetime whic his not long i have only ever seen some sorty of 'frit cocktail' government. The current one is lime cordial. 20% green topped up with the water of FF. Its a bit silly.


Parties should just be abolished

T runner

Interesting question.

For the families who vote along family lines, to answer this one would involve going back.

Were the two parties really sprung out of the civil war or would one need to go back before that?

How predictable was it that certain families would go to a certain side before the civil war?

How much did economics play a part?

A hypothetical example might be:

Someones ancestor (great great grandfather) succeded in a business in 1860.

The business was carried on by subsequent generations and his grandson voted for the treaty to provide a better economic situation in the country along with the majority in his middle class neighbourhood. The family naturally voted Fine Gael subsequently and have voted along family lines since.

The descendant votes Fine Gael, because the great great grandfather succeeded in a business in 1860.

I suppose it may require the socio economic, demographics, and previous political allegiances of pro and counter treaty supporters to see if there are trends. Any opinions?

mikemac

I'd vote FG but it's not due to family ties
Around our way most people vote for an independent TD who is hugely popular in the constituency. Tops the poll everytime!

I do watch Primetime and the like a lot of what of FG have to say. Particularly Richard Bruton. And I don't buy into this constant criticim of Enda Kenny, he'd do a good job imo.

It'd be the easy option for me to vote FF, my mothers cousin is a 2nd term TD, junior minister and my ex schoolteacher. Wouldn't vote for her though or her party!

irish_bob

bigstar wrote: »

wondering what makes people vote for one of the two big parties. they seem to me to be similar in ideology. do most people vote for them because their family do or is there a another reason.

most people in this country do indeed vote based on which party thier family tree has voted

irish_bob

T runner wrote: »

Interesting question.

For the families who vote along family lines, to answer this one would involve going back.

Were the two parties really sprung out of the civil war or would one need to go back before that?

How predictable was it that certain families would go to a certain side before the civil war?

How much did economics play a part?

A hypothetical example might be:

Someones ancestor (great great grandfather) succeded in a business in 1860.

The business was carried on by subsequent generations and his grandson voted for the treaty to provide a better economic situation in the country along with the majority in his middle class neighbourhood. The family naturally voted Fine Gael subsequently and have voted along family lines since.

The descendant votes Fine Gael, because the great great grandfather succeeded in a business in 1860.

I suppose it may require the socio economic, demographics, and previous political allegiances of pro and counter treaty supporters to see if there are trends. Any opinions?

what your baschically saying is that old money votes for fine gael , new money has for the most part voted fianna fail , will be interesting in the next few years to see who NO MONEY votes for

bigstar

seems like no one has a good reason to vote FF or FG. its either FG because you dont like FF or FF because you dont like FG. it seems like the civil war still hangs over us

sink

turgon wrote: »

Dont you think thats a bit naive considering how little power backbenchers have and the hard core party loyalty in the Dail?

Everyone starts somewhere. Today's backbenchers will be tomorrows cabinet. If you vote crap in to politics you get crap out.

Permabear

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mikemac

bigstar wrote: »

seems like no one has a good reason to vote FF or FG. its either FG because you dont like FF or FF because you dont like FG. it seems like the civil war still hangs over us

Eh, I gave my reason
I vote FG but I like their policies and the people on their front-bench

People can think for themselves...

oscarBravo

irish_bob wrote: »

most people in this country do indeed vote based on which party thier family tree has voted

Again with the most people. Do you have a source for that?

nesf

In my constituency in the last election I had a choice between a bunch of socialists of different party colours, a Labour candidate who listed the price of concert tickets as one of her three major concerns in a leaflet she sent to my home and two each of run of the mill FF & FG candidates. Since I'm never going to vote Socialist or for any candidate who lists concert tickets as one of their three major concerns, I voted for the FF & FG candidates because they were the best of a bad bunch.

Permabear

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bmaxi

I suppose I'm what could loosely be termed a "floating voter", I don't have allegiance to any party and I would tend to vote for the candidate rather than the party. Over the years though, I have never given a no. 1 vote to either of the main parties because I've never had the confidence in any candidate they sent my way. Fianna Fail always seems to be the "cute hoor" full of plamas whereas Fine Gael is a throwback to the landed gentry. It really does p*ss me off when I see the political dynasties in the Dail, the Lenihans, Haugheys, Flynns etc. I often wonder, like the O.P., what inspires people to vote for them. It's like having our own Royal Family.

Liam Byrne

Frankie Lee wrote: »

I disagree with privatisation and FG would have been more successful in implementing it.

:eek: And yet you support the crowd that sold off eircom, Aer Lingus and loads of other stuff ???

PLUS: having kept SOME shareholding in Aer Lingus in order to protect our interests, refused to use it when required, claiming it would be "government interference" ???

Liam Byrne

irish_bob wrote: »

most people in this country do indeed vote based on which party thier family tree has voted

Hopefully that'll change. My family would have been fairly FF, and then PD once Dessie left the cesspit, but I wouldn't dream of voting for either since about 2002 considering the wastefulness, corruption, lack of responsibility and now the mess they've landed us in.

ChocolateSauce

I'd only vote labour. Otherwise I wouldn't vote. Not voting is acceptable; the fewer people vote, the less credibility a government has.

dresden8

Het-Field wrote: »

The revelations about Bertie,

They're older than the last election.

I have a bridge you might be interested in.

Jack Sheehan

Well, why I will vote for Fine Gael in the next election is I believe that they would do a good job of running the country. Simple as that.

T runner

There was absolutely no choice in Sligo. It aither ended up 3-1 FF-FG if McSharry got his vote delegations right, or 2-2.
In the 80's Working class Sligo had a protest vote in the form of Flukey Gorman and his "All-night Party". That is until FF or FG but him out of business with the 2000 quid hurdle or 2000 votes last time or whatever it is.

It really does p*ss me off when I see the political dynasties in the Dail, the Lenihans, Haugheys, Flynns etc. I often wonder, like the O.P., what inspires people to vote for them. It's like having our own Royal Family.

A problem in Ireland may be that we still follow the old lines of the son following the profession of the father.

As long as there are blacksmiths So in a house where politics is discussed one of the children is interested enough or pushed a bit into taking it up, resulting in these dynasties. So when Daddy retires or dies the youngster steps in. I wonder what representation of the 12% women are daughters of former TDs? Its not good really.

This is changing a bit (children not always following parents) with the emergence of mass 3rd level attendance by the children of the huge middle class, but proportionally this "type" of traditional politician is too common.

Permabear

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Agent Smith

Jack Sheehan wrote: »

Well, why I will vote for Fine Gael in the next election is I believe that they would do a good job of running the country. Simple as that.

pretty much this.

Breezer

I vote FG because I agree with their policies and think they have strong politicians who will actually implement them and not cave into every interest group: for example Reilly, Bruton, Varadkar, Hayes.

I believe Enda Kenny is an excellent leader and organiser (although his media performance is admittedly very hit and miss), he has done wonders for the party, and I agree with his 'captain of the team' approach. There's no point in having an entire cabinet of capable ministers if the orders are all coming from the top down.

FG is a centrist party which some people dismiss as 'standing for nothing' and having policies that change from day to day. I see it as a party not blinded by ideology, who will look at a situation objectively, taking into account current circumstances (financial, social, etc.), and form policies based on that. 'The truth does not change' is how churches are run, not how states should be run. You might say that FF take a similar approach, but the difference is that FF simply adopt the policies of whoever their junior coalition partner is, whereas I believe FG would do what is best for the country.

FF claim to be left wing and yet went into Government with the PDs 3 times in a row, supporting mass privatisation, co-location, etc. FG claim to be centrist and have diverse policies that reflect this, e.g. supporting competition for Dublin Bus while opposing co-location, proposing reform of a public service too full of pointless pen pushers while opposing cutbacks in our public health service such as the withdrawal of the cervical cancer vaccine.

Unlike FF, FG does not tolerate corruption.

My vote is not merely an anti-FF vote. To paraphrase Eamon Gilmore, we are not FF, but we are also not Labour, not the PDs, not the Greens and not Sinn Fein. We are FG.

zootroid

Breezer wrote: »

I vote FG because I agree with their policies and think they have strong politicians who will actually implement them and not cave into every interest group: for example Reilly, Bruton, Varadkar, Hayes.

I believe Enda Kenny is an excellent leader and organiser (although his media performance is admittedly very hit and miss), he has done wonders for the party, and I agree with his 'captain of the team' approach. There's no point in having an entire cabinet of capable ministers if the orders are all coming from the top down.

FG is a centrist party which some people dismiss as 'standing for nothing' and having policies that change from day to day. I see it as a party not blinded by ideology, who will look at a situation objectively, taking into account current circumstances (financial, social, etc.), and form policies based on that. 'The truth does not change' is how churches are run, not how states should be run. You might say that FF take a similar approach, but the difference is that FF simply adopt the policies of whoever their junior coalition partner is, whereas I believe FG would do what is best for the country.

FF claim to be left wing and yet went into Government with the PDs 3 times in a row, supporting mass privatisation, co-location, etc. FG claim to be centrist and have diverse policies that reflect this, e.g. supporting competition for Dublin Bus while opposing co-location, proposing reform of a public service too full of pointless pen pushers while opposing cutbacks in our public health service such as the withdrawal of the cervical cancer vaccine.

Unlike FF, FG does not tolerate corruption.

My vote is not merely an anti-FF vote. To paraphrase Eamon Gilmore, we are not FF, but we are also not Labour, not the PDs, not the Greens and not Sinn Fein. We are FG.

I agree with this more or less. I voted FG-Labour-Green in 2007, basically because I was fed up with the government wasting money. Also, I remember at the time people saying FG would make a mess of the economy, all the while the correct action wasn't being taken to avoid recession. The government were warned the construction industry was in a bubble, yet did nothing. Wages have gone through the roof over the last few years, how is any exporting company here to remain competitive? The ESRI were warning about this, the media were reporting this, yet nothing was done.

In 2002 I voted FF. I thought FG didn't have a clue what they were at. So I think credit where its due to Enda Kenny. Seems intelligent, and strikes me as someone who would put the country's interests first (unlike Bertie). He is god awful to listen to though. But what do people want, a charismatic chancer, or someone who's not the most interesting person in the world, but can look after the country's interests? I don't think Enda would make a great Taoiseach, but at least he'd be competent. Which puts him far higher than anyone in FF at the moment.

nesf

Breezer wrote: »

Unlike FF, FG does not tolerate corruption.

When FG have been in power for as long as FF have, you can say that. Otherwise it's just hurling from the ditch tbh.

leninbenjamin

voted Labour the last time, just to see Michael D in though. He's been kinda the conscience of the country for the last decade or so and frankly he's the only candidate in our constituency who's able to construct an opinion of their own and have a positive influence beyond just towing the party line.

Sadly for the next election though I won't have this option. All the other labour councillors who might run in D's place are quacks. Same for the Greens, nearly every independent and of course the Sinn Feiners. So I think next election it'll be one of the big two.

I really really really would like to have a reason vote FG, and probably still will, but it's only because they'll be the lesser of two evils; really haven't much faith in them to do a better job. Apart from Bruton, they all come across to me as really naive. Very few in there with the strength of personality, let alone know how, who you'd have faith in to get the job done.

bmaxi

T runner wrote: »

There was absolutely no choice in Sligo. It aither ended up 3-1 FF-FG if McSharry got his vote delegations right, or 2-2.
In the 80's Working class Sligo had a protest vote in the form of Flukey Gorman and his "All-night Party". That is until FF or FG but him out of business with the 2000 quid hurdle or 2000 votes last time or whatever it is.



A problem in Ireland may be that we still follow the old lines of the son following the profession of the father.

As long as there are blacksmiths So in a house where politics is discussed one of the children is interested enough or pushed a bit into taking it up, resulting in these dynasties. So when Daddy retires or dies the youngster steps in. I wonder what representation of the 12% women are daughters of former TDs? Its not good really.

This is changing a bit (children not always following parents) with the emergence of mass 3rd level attendance by the children of the huge middle class, but proportionally this "type" of traditional politician is too common.

I take your point but it still doesn't explain why people vote for them, especially in cases where the parent's, or siblings, or in some cases their own track record is less than admirable.

Breezer

nesf wrote: »

When FG have been in power for as long as FF have, you can say that. Otherwise it's just hurling from the ditch tbh.

I see where you're coming from, but I can't accept that really. Power corrupts, yes, but my point wasn't that no single FG politician would ever be corrupted (history would have proven me wrong in that case), but that the party as an entity would not stand for it. Honest politics is one of FG's core principles. Am I still hurling from the ditch? Maybe you'll say so, and fair enough, I can't prove otherwise, but I think the fact that you only took issue with one line in my fairly long post speaks for itself.

Frankie Lee

Fine Gael describes itself as a Christian-democratic party, with a focus on law and order, enterprise and reward, and fiscal rectitude

That is a right wing party in my eyes.

Frankie Lee

Also Enda Kenny along with Bertie Ahern have questions that will one day need to be answered over Shell.

Breezer

Frankie Lee wrote: »

That is a right wing party in my eyes.

That's Wikipedia's description of the party. FG's own definition:

http://www.finegael.ie//page.cfm/page/CorplacreidimhFineGael//pkey/1417 wrote:

Is Páirtí é Fine Gael don lár ionad forásach. Is é sin le rá go gníomhaimid ar bhealach atá feiliúnach do Éirinn, gan beann ar Dogma nó idé - eolaíocht. Bunaíonn Fine Gael a chuid polasaithe agus smaointe do thodhchaí na hÉireann ar a chorplár creidimh.

Why this information is only available in Irish, I have no idea, but it translates as:

Fine Gael is a party of the progressive centre. This means that we will act based on what is best for Ireland, rather than on dogma or ideology. Fine Gael bases its policies and ideas for the future of Ireland on our central beliefs

which it lists as: the chance of equality; enterprise and reward; safety; honesty; hope.

Yes, FG sits with the Christian Democratic parties in Europe, and if you had to push the party one way or the other along the axis, it would probably sit best at the centre-right position. But some of its policies are distinctly left of centre (universal healthcare, for example), and it is certainly not a right wing party.

T runner

bmaxi wrote: »

I take your point but it still doesn't explain why people vote for them, especially in cases where the parent's, or siblings, or in some cases their own track record is less than admirable.

I accept that, I think thats true. These are some reasons perhaps.

Lack of Choice: Because people in other non political profession families are following family professions themselves people are not getting as much of a choice especially within Political Parties.

Blind party loyalty:
I come from a FF voting family. I like to think I have my own mind politically now, but when there was a debate my immediate reaction was previously a powerful urge to defend the FF side.

This party support was ingrained in me I guess. Ive even defended the less than admirable track records myself. What happens is the person always has the premise that their PP is right and thus will always try and support/defend that position. By necessity the less than admirable traits are usually rationalised away in order to maintain the integrity of the initial premise (FF TDs good). Only when faced with overwhelming evidence will these bad traits be accepted, but then only in the individual rarely in the party. Sometimes the rationalising even turns to: the good the person does is greater than the
bad. You have to take the bad with the good sometimes, etc..

Anyway the point is these loyalties are very powerful. Viewed from the outside: voting for or even defending someone who is obviously dodgy may look irrational (because it is). However, the person themselves are blinded to these rational reasons by their loyalties.

I think this loyalty may be stronger in FF than FG.
I would find it very difficult to vote FG now because of this ingraining.

nesf

Breezer wrote: »

Maybe you'll say so, and fair enough, I can't prove otherwise, but I think the fact that you only took issue with one line in my fairly long post speaks for itself.

I took issue with more than one line of your post, I just didn't feel like arguing about every part of it. If I replied to everything I disagreed with on this forum I'd have to be around 24/7. Essentially power corrupts, and it's easy to stand against corruption when you've been out of power for over a decade. If FG can maintain their present stance after being in power for a decade, I'll be impressed.

bigstar

i cant agree with you nesf. if i accept bribes i cant say well you havent had the chance to accept them so you cant criticise me. on FF/FG, T runner voting for a party because its 'ingrained in you' is a very weak argument. Breezer at least you have some reasons but it sounds like you think FG are a better version of FF and would simply be better. thats not a strong argument either. They are two very similar parties, but because FF so willingly accept their coalitions policies they seem to just want power. the problem is there are not a lot of real alterntive. labour, who have been in the wilderness for a while, are a leftist party and FG are right so no coalition seems likely to work there. i dont think FF and Labour would work because their ideologies would not work together. Labour having one and FF not, or maybe that would work but why would we need FF at all if labour would set the agenda. i would lean in favour of a social democratic party, of which i think labour is closest but labour probably will never achieve a majority in ireland.

leincar

Nice and simplistic this one.

I've always voted FG because they are not FF. The only difference I've ever had is my second preference. I always went Labour(mainly because my Father was an active member) but in 2007 I went Green. Thats a mistake never to be repeated.

bigstar

you see thats the problem most of us dont seem to vote for a party we like just one we dont hate more than the other

leincar

bigstar wrote: »

you see thats the problem most of us dont seem to vote for a party we like just one we dont hate more than the other

Yeah i agree with you entirely. I'm of an age where I could vote for Garret Fitzgerald as he brought FG down a liberal path. At the moment there are very few parties that can be pidgeon holed. Except Sinn Fein and the Socialist party(Joe Higgins).

While I would disagree with the above parties on just about everything economically, you know where you stand with them.

nesf

bigstar wrote: »

i cant agree with you nesf. if i accept bribes i cant say well you havent had the chance to accept them so you cant criticise me.

You misunderstand my point, FF should very much be criticised for any corruption in its ranks. The problem I have is people claiming that their party would never have been prey to that corruption. I have serious doubts about that, corruption follows power and I find it hard to believe that there aren't people in the FG ranks who wouldn't give in to the temptation. If your party has been out of power for a long time, or since its inception in some cases, then it's pointless to say that they have been "cleaner" in that time. If you're not in power, why would anyone want to bribe you?

link8r

I just can't stand Captain Boring (Enda Kenny). I'd vote FF every time until there was no-one left to stand. FG has been made up of the most boring, unimaginative whingers.

I also believe there could be a lot better than FF - I'm be no means a FF member nor lifer. There is just no competition to them. I can't stand the Green Party, and the rest are just ... well FG-esque - pointless!

T runner

bigstar wrote: »

... T runner voting for a party because its 'ingrained in you' is a very weak argument....

Thats true, I'm not trying to argue for it. I dont vote like that any more myself.
The point I was making is that it can be a powerful influence on a lot of people. E.g one family voting for the same party through several generations etc.

I think FF voters find it very difficult to change to FG.

Enda Kenny gained some seats for FG last time, but not at expense of FF.
Labour could and should have hurt FF last time. FF supporters were willing to switch. The alliance with FG was a mistake as FF voters saw a defection to labour as helping FG get in power.
The alliance was good for FG as they consolidated, especially after Noonan flop.
If Labour had stayed out of the alliance and gone alone they would be in government now either with FF of FG.
They put themselves in a position where it was too difficult for willing FF voters to defect to them.