Tell me all about BJJ

jim o doom

Hey there BJJ folks - kenpo head here, and won't be changing until at least my first dan black in a year or two - however, I am researching in that time all the information I can about different martial arts, so I have something different to add on, whilst keeping up to date in kenpo (because hell, whatever you say about it, I sure love it) - but the information on WIKI about BJJ is pretty lax - so I'd love to hear all the real life information, what the training is like, real life application, anything ye can think of; another good one would be what the training is based around - like self defence, techniques, sparring, conditioning, etc :)cheers!

BobbyOLeary

Hey Jim, I'm a kenpo guy too (It's where its at). I picked up submission wrestling (no-gi BJJ essentially) about 2 years ago so maybe I'm not the best person to explain the art but I'm in a similar position to yourself (I'm a 3rd Brown in Kenpo) so here goes.

Firstly, BJJ is not like Kenpo, at all. BJJ classes are not like Kenpo classes. The whole feel of a BJJ class is more akin to soccer training or something. Its much more relaxed and less traditionalistic.

Frankly I love BJJ, I'm annoyed I didn't start it sooner. Its one of the only sports I've ever been involved in that you get out of it exactly what you put in. If you train hard and practice you'll get better, if you don't, you won't. BJJ rewards the technical player and thats probably why I like it so much. Technical excellence will beat brute strength, something which is not always the case in striking arts.

I've trained in UCDMMA, Spartan MMA and had two classes in SBG. My two coaches so far have been Colm O'Reilly and Jim McInerney, so I've kind of been shown the immature side to BJJ training, something that I never got in Kenpo. A BJJ class is more like a group of peers than a traditional MA class, I like both set-ups so I continue to train both.

Sorry for the long meandering post but really BJJ is hard to describe, you're better off just trying a class and giving it a go. Don't wait till your 1st Dan in Kenpo, start now.

Ug Lee

Considering the amount of time that a BJJ guy will spend learning how to pass guard or learning how to defend and attack from the guard, is there a risk that a good few punches to the groin will render the guard useless? This more specifically addresses the use of the guard for self-defence rather than for sport.

cowzerp

BJJ is used in mma with great success and before you say there is no striking to the groin in mma, the original UFC this was not out lawed and did not make any difference to the fights, it was only removed to satisfy governors that mma was a sport and not human cock fighting..

Ug Lee

cowzerp wrote: »

BJJ is used in mma with great success and before you say there is no striking to the groin in mma, the original UFC this was not out lawed and did not make any difference to the fights, it was only removed to satisfy governors that mma was a sport and not human cock fighting..

Thats fine. I am just interested in the variables behind the "success". When in someone's guard, how easy is it punch them in the groin without getting caught by a triangle choke, kimura, etc? Is there a reason why you will spend so much time training to pass guard compared to the five minutes training to punch them in the groin?

BobbyOLeary

Is there a reason why you will spend so much time training to pass guard compared to the five minutes training to punch them in the groin?

Because guard passing is an essential skill for competitive BJJ, cracking each other in the nut sack is not.

jim o doom

Cool - cheers for the information so far, two of my friends do BJJ & I know a chap who is an instructor through them as well, I might give it a try. I'm probably gonna start another thread of "tell me about bujinkan" in a few days once I've read everything on this, when people have had more chance to tell me stuff! I think I had some mild bjj/mma training for a few days with a black belt friend & a mate of his who fights mma.. sure uses a lot of energy on the floor

Ug Lee

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

Because guard passing is an essential skill for competitive BJJ, cracking each other in the nut sack is not.

Thanks for that but as I said my question referred to the use of BJJ for self-defence.

ryoishin

Ug Lee wrote: »

Considering the amount of time that a BJJ guy will spend learning how to pass guard or learning how to defend and attack from the guard, is there a risk that a good few punches to the groin will render the guard useless? This more specifically addresses the use of the guard for self-defence rather than for sport.

There is alot of wrist and arm controlling by both people in guard passing.

Also a shot in the nuts does nt always end a fight.

Mark Hamill

Ug Lee wrote: »

Thats fine. I am just interested in the variables behind the "success". When in someone's guard, how easy is it punch them in the groin without getting caught by a triangle choke, kimura, etc? Is there a reason why you will spend so much time training to pass guard compared to the five minutes training to punch them in the groin?

You do realise that when you are in someones guard, they don't just sit there with their hands behind their head and their eyes closed. They are going to be actively trying to sub/sweep/strike you. Its like saying why do boxers bother spending so much time on conditioning when they can learn to punch someone in the face in five minutes.

Ug Lee

ryoishin wrote: »

There is alot of wrist and arm controlling by both people in guard passing.

Also a shot in the nuts does nt always end a fight.

I agree but however about a sustained attack on the groin area? Get into a good base, control their hips with your hands and then lash into their groin? Might not end the fight but maybe it will break their guard?

Ug Lee

Mark Hamill wrote: »

They are going to be actively trying to sub/sweep/strike you.

I understand that. And when they are trying to sub/sweep/strike the other person can focus on maintaining their base and delivering groin attacks. For self defence it might be a lot easier. These are only thoughts.

Colm_OReilly

My two coaches so far have been Colm O'Reilly and Jim McInerney, so I've kind of been shown the immature side to BJJ training, something that I never got in Kenpo.

Huh? I'm gonna presume you mean the fun, friendly element we try to have?

As to the punches in the groin question. I used to get this fairly regularly down in UCD, so I'd simply get the guy to attack me and tell him he could do whatever he pleases. He got choked out. I know John Kavanagh has done the same in the early days of BJJ in this country.

Mark's argument is spot on, but I also like this one. If I can take you down, control your movements, isolate your arm or neck and then force you to submit through a joint lock or choke when there are rules, how badly do you think I could mess you up if I didn't have rules?

I know that can be read as rather aggressive, and that's not my intention. I guess the point is if there are no rules, it will apply to both parties. The guy who spends his weeks controlling another human being who's fighting back has a massive advantage.

Jim - the only way you'll really understand something is to give it a lash. Head down with your mates to the club, and give it a go. Tell the instructor what you do, and that you're just sampling it. Any instructor I can think of will be happy to give you an introduction to BJJ/Sub Wrestling.

uberpixie

Ug Lee wrote: »

I agree but however about a sustained attack on the groin area? Get into a good base, control their hips with your hands and then lash into their groin? Might not end the fight but maybe it will break their guard?

If you are on the ground with someone in your guard, they will not be able to punch you in the nuts very well.

Your bigger issue would be that you are on the ground and his 5 mates are going to use your head for football practice.....

In SD situations: with BJJ you will be able to scramble back to your feet quickly, get someone much bigger off you as quickly as possible, be able to defend against chokes and have some clinch if someone grabs you and have takedown defense if someone tackles you. BJJ will help you stay on your feet and not end up on the ground.

You will also have various chokes and takedowns was secondary attacks to punching/kicking/kneeing etc...

You also will have pins and hold to restrain someone if you are in a situation where beating the fcuk out of someone would be frowned upon i.e. the workplace where people would frown upon you beating the snot out of a workmate, or a family event where someone gets drunk, acts the tit and needs to be retrained to avoid them hurting themselves or others.

cowzerp

Breaking guard is of little use if you dont have the ground training to do something when you pass, either know how to remain in mount or finish your opponent before he reverses you and puts you on the bottom and finishes you off.

BJJ in my opinion is not really a self defense system anyway, of course it can and would be used if the fight went to ground but most people in street scenarios avoid going to ground for obvious reasons-but in a 1 on 1 fight it would give the ground trained fighter an advantage over a karateka for example..

BobbyOLeary

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Huh? I'm gonna presume you mean the fun, friendly element we try to have?

Sorry Colm, thats what I meant by immature.

Mark Hamill

Ug Lee wrote:

I agree but however about a sustained attack on the groin area? Get into a good base, control their hips with your hands and then lash into their groin? Might not end the fight but maybe it will break their guard?

What will you lash into their groin with? You are holding their hips with you hands.

Ug Lee wrote: »

I understand that. And when they are trying to sub/sweep/strike the other person can focus on maintaining their base and delivering groin attacks. For self defence it might be a lot easier. These are only thoughts.

Have you actually tried that on someone with a half decent guard. It requires both arms and legs to keep base and control your opponent while staying balanced in their guard. Besides that, punching straight down in to someones groin while in their guard is actually a little harder than you would expect :first you need to sit up, then, while somehow holding your opponent flat on their back without using your hands, you need to punch almost straight down along your body with a good amount of force (poking him in the groin with little short jerks of the hand will be largely useless). If you sit up to strike against someone while in their guard, they will either sit up with you (probably to sweep), or pull you back down (probably to submit). If you to strike while lying down, then you wont have any power and will just get triangled or sweeped.
I appreciate that you are probably just throwing around these ideas, but you really need to try them out on people to understand why they aren't nearly as clever or simple as you think.

(PS I am going to be busy for the next while today, I may not be able to repsond until tormorrow)

Ug Lee

Thanks for the replies. I have the height of respect for BJJ but just like to poke and prod a little.

r_obric

Ug Lee wrote: »

Considering the amount of time that a BJJ guy will spend learning how to pass guard or learning how to defend and attack from the guard, is there a risk that a good few punches to the groin will render the guard useless? This more specifically addresses the use of the guard for self-defence rather than for sport.

whats the point in doing thai boxing when someone can just shoot you?

who said anything about bjj being used as a self-defense? bjj is primarily a sport (that doesnt involve striking) and when training in bjj its important to remember, the same way that doing kata's and fancy combinations that most of what people learn in a lot of
MA's is useless when it comes to a confrontation outside the gym where there are no rules.


for the OP have a look here if you are thinking of starting training, but as someone said the best thing to do is to go and train, give it 2/3 classes AT LEAST before you make up your mind and realise that there is a huge of amount of "basics" to learn at the start..... but when you get into bjj and start to understand it, the training is very rewarding as mentioned get out of it exactly what you put into it

http://www.efnsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=1645.0

Ug Lee

r_obric wrote: »

who said anything about bjj being used as a self-defense?

http://www.efnsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=1645.0

Well Helio Gracie states that BJJ is primarily for self-defence and Gracie Barra have it as a self-defence programme until blue belt.

cowzerp

Thats a bs marketing scheme aimed at trad martial artists..

sell out imo

Dragan

Ug Lee wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. I have the height of respect for BJJ but just like to poke and prod a little.

Cool. In the future can we have this type of question asked in it own thread?

It's way off the point of the original post.

Cheers.

Dragan
Moderator ( still )

Ug Lee

Dragan wrote: »

Cool. In the future can we have this type of question asked in it own thread?

It's way off the point of the original post.

Cheers.

Dragan
Moderator ( still )

Sorry about that. I thought it was relevant to the op but no problem.

Clive

Frens, de furst ting you got to know about zhoo zhitsoo, eez how to speak wit a Bdasilian accen'.

The secon' ting eez that o Zhoo Zhits is fun - you should make try it frens.

Thas all you neej to know.

Peoples are talking here about make punch to love-place, others say no I breaka you poshtura. Frens, there eez no gward on zee street. For zhoo zhitsoo esportive you can make spider gward, de la Riva gward, x gward, turtle gward, octopus gward, eez bootyful. For self-defens, you make take topy position or stanj up.

Dis counts as private lesson, so my frens now you must to send me money.

roo1981

Ug Lee wrote: »

Thanks for that but as I said my question referred to the use of BJJ for self-defence.

If you train BJJ for more than a month you'll master the sneaky art of cracking someone in the nuts while passing their guard, hence killing two birds with one stone (I sh*t you not! )

Killme00

roo1981 wrote: »

If you train BJJ for more than a month you'll master the sneaky art of cracking someone in the nuts while passing their guard, hence killing two birds with one stone (I sh*t you not! )

or killing two stones with one bird as the case may be