intervarsity MMA / BJJ

cactus jack

hi all, i attend DCU & was recently talking to bobby from UCD about possibly setting up an intervarsity competition for next semester. if anyone from UCD or their committee could get in contact it would be appreciated & also if any other uni's clubs where interested in jumping in on the action let me know so we can see what can be set up. thanks fo your time & hope to hear back from anyone interested.

MartyMcFly84

Hey hows things? Its a really interesting idea. My name is Mark and im coaching/training out of UL this year. I have a group of all new guys who started in October who have expressed interest in competing next semester. Obviously the league was mainly what I was going to focus at, but the more competition and experience the better!

I was wondering what rules etc you were thinking of? experience levels and weight categories? same format at the league? and roughly when were you thinking of doing it?

Cheers!

Hope it gets running:).

Mark

Drunkmonkey79

NUI Maynooth would enter, those boys are on fire at the minute!:D

cactus jack

i only started this semester myself. but was thanking to oisin, the coach in DCU, i think the main area to start with would be a jiujitsu white belt rules to begin with & possibly if there are more experienced people we might look into something for them as well. the best to get things rolling would be to leave a message for oisin on the cluib site "http://www.bebo.com/DCUMMA" & he'll get in contact with you all. thanks for showing the interest & here's to an intervarsity comp going ahead.

MartyMcFly84

White belt rules? so is it a BJJ comp or an MMA comp your looking to do?

cactus jack

it would be more BJJ to get things going but i'm sure oisin along with some of the lads might be interested in mma as well. as for the rules he said about white belt rules. if you want to get in contact with him PM me & i'll send you his email.

dlofnep

It would be intervarsity BJJ then

I could get the lads involved in our judo club here in WIT to take part for one of the legs.

cactus jack

sorry about the mix up with the title we're looking more for a BJJ comp but i'm sure some people may be interested in a MMA comp as well. does anyone know how to change the title of this thread or does a moderator have to do it? if a mod is watching can it please be changed to "intervarsity MMA / BJJ"?
thanks for all the responses do lads.

dlofnep

You should be able to edit it yourself. Click on edit and then advanced.

cactus jack

thanks for that mate.

MartyMcFly84

dlofnep wrote: »

It would be intervarsity BJJ then


lol:D

Yeah sounds like a BBJ comp to me. None of my guys have gi's and have never trained gi. If there was a subgrappling/no gi I could have some guys for it. There is however also a seperate BJJ club in UL who do Gi all the time, So I could let them know if your looking for a BJJ tournie.

cactus jack

it would be a no gi bjj tournie we'd be after as we don't use them ourselves. sorry about all these mix ups lads but as i've already stated this is my first semester doing this but i'll try get oisin on boards to sort it all out. & thanks for all the patience being shown.

RearNakedJim

I am the ucdmma coach and very few of them have gi's either so i would say the best thing would be a subgrappling competition following the nation sub championship ruleset.

BobbyOLeary

Sub wrasslin' all the way. I've never rolled in a gi myself and I'm not going to go out and buy one for an intervarsity.

Jim has it on the button I think, use the National Submission Championship rules, novice rules would be ideal (no leglocks) for guys just starting off, or for guys like myself who think they're cheap (I don't know how to use them). It'll be painful for those who can't pass guard though.

Cactus Jack, PM sent.

dasmoose

I spoke about this with Brian Fury (best name ever btw, do you have any application forms for S.H.I.E.L.D.?) a while back and passed his info on to the guy running QUB BJJ - they'd definitely be interested.

Someone just needs to get the finger out and set a date - i recommend speak to Colm (O'Reilly) if you want to set up a tournament in UCD as he has already run several very good tournaments there.

cactus jack

can the coaches from the different uni's interested send me there contact info so i can pass it on to oisin & we can start getting something put in place. thanks again for all the interest & hope to see you all when we get this going.

BobbyOLeary

Cactus Jack, I don't know how things are run in DCU but in UCD at least these clubs are run by students, not the coaches. Usually the coach is employed by the club and doesn't have a responsibility in the day to day running of the club.

Your best bet is to send an email to the clubs who've been mentioned here and address it to their captain/chairperson. I'd do it but I just don't have the free time at the moment. I've sent on my details to you anyway.

MartyMcFly84

A sub grappling tournie based on Colm O'Reilly's format sounds great! I really hope we can get this going. Ive sent on my contact details to you cactus jack anyway. Hope to hear from you soon. :cool:

cactus jack

to try clear up any confusion i'm after contact info from anyone who can help in the setting up of the comp. sorry for the mix up on the coaches front but here oisin mainly trains us while being a student himself. while we do have a jiujitsu coach who comes in every so often.

BobbyOLeary

I'll have a chat with Colm O'Reilly about it over the weekend. Cactus Jack, quick question, while we'd be more than happy to host a sub comp, booking the Sport Centre halls has become a bit harder these days. Is it easy to book the large hall in DCU? Or even a part of it?

cactus jack

i'll have to check with oisin regards that as i haven't had any involvement in booking the large hall but i'll see what i can find out about it.

Colm_OReilly

Someone just needs to get the finger out and set a date - i recommend speak to Colm (O'Reilly) if you want to set up a tournament in UCD as he has already run several very good tournaments there.

While I appreciate the compliments Mark I should point out that my involvement in these things is the set up and promotion. On the day, it's all Supreme Commander Jim who gets it done. My job on the day is to make sure he's happy.

Col
-Credit where credit's due

Clive

As someone who has no affiliation to any college club, and as a long time lover of college women, I'm happy to volunteer for refereeing duties, if needed.

However, as always, I reserve the right to heckle and eat doughnuts at the weigh-ins.

darkman x

Can anybody join the UCD mma club or do you have to be a current student/past student?

Nothingcompares

I think I may throw my hoof into this.

I agree, an inter-varsity/collegiate Submission wrestling competition is the best place to start for organising something related to MMA. I also agree COR's submission wrestling template is the best to follow.

3 experience classes - beginner (<6months), intermediate (<12) and advanced (+12).
Weight classes - 68, 75, 83, 92, 100
Pools format.
Entrants - anyone with a valid student card
Rules - submission 3 points, draw 1 point, playoff required and a draw - first to take down

I know DCU, UL and UCD can definitely put a bunch of guys in, how many can QUB enter? I think there's a bit of sub wrestling happening in other colleges too so I think it would be a good idea to email/post every martial arts club and sports officer in every college/uni. There will be ppl training with Mark Leonard and John Kavanagh for example who may have student cards but aren't in a club in the college.

Important things to do:
Pick a date (some weekend in spring imo)
Pick a venue (dcu or ucd)
Get a couple of refs (Clive and friends)
Get a tournament director
Get first aid crew
Get some entrants (entrant form)

Administrative things to do:
Form an intervarsity MMA committee (rep from each college)
Get a website going with all the information
Get a draft constitution going
Compose a letter for the different colleges
Think about "insurance"

Nice things to do:
Book a restaurant for post-comp meal
Get medals and trophies
Get donuts

BobbyOLeary

darkman x wrote: »

Can anybody join the UCD mma club or do you have to be a current student/past student?

Current students, alumni and staff only I'm afraid.

dasmoose

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I know DCU, UL and UCD can definitely put a bunch of guys in, how many can QUB enter?

We had around 10 in the NSC in june iirc, I'm sure we could get a lot more for an official intervarsity tournament.

Scramble

If alumni can enter... Is there a TCD club?

BobbyOLeary

I was just thinking about this last night. If this is an Intervarsity tournament then its essentially team-based. If this is the case we'd have to limit each club to a certain amount of players and reserves. Run it along the lines of Dave Jones' team tournament or something.

What I mean essentially is that each university/college/IT would enter a team of lets say 12 individuals (4 per experience level) and the team with the most wins (probably more complex than just number of wins) gets the title.

Scramble, I'm not sure if the rules of an intervarsity allow alumni. I thought it was purely a competition for current students. If any alumni who weren't current students were allowed in then UCD could field a ridiculous team compared to whats in the club at the minute. Alumni may join a college club but I don't think they're allowed to compete in intervarsities.

RearNakedJim

4 of the 6 members of the fila team last year where former ucd students as i remember

dasmoose

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

Scramble, I'm not sure if the rules of an intervarsity allow alumni. I thought it was purely a competition for current students. If any alumni who weren't current students were allowed in then UCD could field a ridiculous team compared to whats in the club at the minute. Alumni may join a college club but I don't think they're allowed to compete in intervarsities.

Yeah, if we're talking alumni it would get a bit stupid considering the amount of graduates who train BJJ. Kev has the right idea of valid student card holders only.

BobbyOLeary

Just saying valid student card is a bit vague though if you're going to run an intervarsity. An intervarsity, by its very nature, is a team event. Each university that wants to enter would need to field a team. If a particular college or uni doesn't have a specific club but has a group of interested individuals thats gravy but I think it'll have to be teams, not an individual event.

Jim, this is exactly what I'm saying about being able to field ridiculous teams if alumni are allowed

Nothingcompares

Again there are no rules as such afaik. If someone wants to host it and decides they want to allow alumni that's fine they can do that. You'll probably get a load of more entrants of a higher level but you'll have to accomodate them.

I think the best idea is just to restrict it to people who have a current student card. Simply means anyone who is currently a student in any college/uni partime/fulltime/evening.

The team event is an important aspect of the intervarsity but in an indivudal sport like wrestling it's not that important. I think a 5 versus 5 team event is a good idea. But you can also just add up points (DCU player wins <75 division gets 5 points for dcu etc.) team with the most points wins the intervarsity.

This is how it works in boxing intervarsity. Obviously rewards the college with the most entrants.

So in conclusion I don't agree with Bobby.

dasmoose

Yeah that's the other thing - if we're talking a team of 12, (each skill level, several weight classes) - I just can't see that happening, especially for smaller uni clubs which wouldn't have that many players at certain weight classes and/or skill levels. Just off the top of my head unless someone with previous experience has joined QUB BJJ in the last few months, we wouldn't be able to field anyone in heavyweight advanced, and I don't even know if our lone heavyweight would be interested in competing at all. I think Kev's hit the nail on the head with the boxing method.

Roper

Let alumni in I could compete for DCU!

Nothingcompares

and JK for DIT

and Andy Ryan for the school of hard knocks

BobbyOLeary

But you can also just add up points (DCU player wins <75 division gets 5 points for dcu etc.) team with the most points wins the intervarsity.

Don't know much about intervarsity boxing competitions but that sounds like a good plan. If the universities aren't represented its not an intervarsity, its a 3rd level sub wrestling comp. Not that thats a bad thing but we'd need to clarify exactly what we're doing.

Maybe an individual comp along with a team event at the end? I dunno I'm just spouting whatever comes into my head.

Nothingcompares

I don't see any difference between Intervarsity SW and 3rd level SW competition. It's just a matter of semantics. All Irish intervarsities (AFAIK) do not distinguish between Universities (NUIs, UCC, DU, DCU, UL, QUB, UUs) and colleges (DIT, GIT, TIT, CLIT).

I'll just repeat my idea, again I don't want to sound like I'm being bullish but I do think it's the best way:

Team competition

Each college/uni submits a team of 5 players of any weight class/experience.
They are put into pools with other colleges/unis.
Unis can have 1 or 2 teams and a female team (3 girls)
Players either face off in order of size or in order of roster
Who ever wins >2 matches progresses to next round.
which ever team wins the tournament is intervarsity champion
(I know Dave jone's tournies have specific weight classes but I don't think the colleges will have enough players to do this).

Individual Comp

After the team event (or before) individual comp as seen in national submission championships.

Again the idea is that we get college clubs mixing together, we get an annual tournie going with a bit of craic, beginners get a good go at competition (couple of fights), it's competitive but it's not about who wins really. It's something people can participate in to represent their college/uni.

Clive

Kickboxing intervarsities have always been an individual competition with points for medal placements as Kev has suggested - 5 points for gold, 3 for silver, 1 for bronze.

The advantage of this system is that pretty much every club will have someone who wins a category (yes, you too can be an intervarsity champion!) - they can use this for promotion, grant applications and sports awards.

Say if UCD MMA has 12 guys, UCD judo has 4, UCD ninjitsu has 2 and one UCD independent who pick the team if you go on the 5 man team basis?

Using the points system the overall result is then on a college/university basis rather than per club.

Clive

I'm also going to be controversial and say ditch the NSC rules.

Much and all as they rock, I think FILA rules would be much better given the level of people this is aimed at (mostly beginners with a few advanced mofos thrown in).

Some reasons:
1. Points. It's heartbreaking to see people doing all the right things and just not being able to get a finish, so they end up drawing a match. With points, newer people can use the basics they should be learning first - escapes and positional dominance to win, rather than attempting stupid hail mary subs.

2. People also open up more when they are down on points - this makes the matches more action packed.

3. Stalling can be punished more effectively.

4. FILA rules reward "the complete wrestler" - takedowns score well, there are points for other cool stuff so other people will be more inclined to enter, not just the usual BJJ brigade.

Just my thoughts, as usual I'll row in with whatever the folks running things want.

Nothingcompares

I think Fila rules are too complex. I'm almost certain nobody who started martial arts this year knows that fila even exists. but if clive and friends are happy to explain and ref based on fila rules ...

what does everyone think? things like this show we might need a committee formed to kinda make these decisions.

with regards to team picking. again its another example of how things like committees and respective members are important. it would be my view, that each college has a delegate responsible for entering their team and players in the tournament (usually captain of the respective club). as clive said there might be some rivalry between clubs so it really comes down to who the delegate enters. hopefully we'll get some nice political warfare out of this

RearNakedJim

Fila rules are better understood these days, and i agree points is a must for beginner comps.

From memory
5 pts High amp body to body throw
3 pts body to body throw
double leg etc no points and you must return oponent to mat safely.
1 pts passing guard to half guard
2 side control
3 mount
4 back

i think

And you must progress through the sequence to gain points ie if you get mount you get 3 points but if you go back to side you dont get additional 2 points

Clive

Jim has it as far as I remember.

It doesn't necessarily have to be the full FILA rules, just some sort of point system.

A repechage system would be vital too IMO.

Roper

Clive wrote: »

1. Points. It's heartbreaking to see people doing all the right things and just not being able to get a finish, so they end up drawing a match.

Heartbreaking eh?

Why no points for double legs?

MartyMcFly84

I like the idea of a team comp and the individual. If each collage/uni put in a team of their best 5 players to represent their club/university.

Then everyone can enter the individuals comp. ie people who didnt make the team (with different levels beginner,inter etc and or weight divisions)

We would then have a good intervarsity comp with collages pitting their best against each other, and the individual comp for everyone of all levels to enter.

Colm_OReilly

Can UCD enter a team old skool?

Sissy Boy
Clive
Jim
Dunk
Very Nice Pat

cactus jack

you would be best to check this with oisin.

OMCCABE

cactus jack wrote: »

you would be best to check this with oisin.

I guess thats my cue.:D

Firstly thanks to those that I've been in contact through email over the last few days. Good suggestions.

I've sat back and watched this thread for a few days to see what direction it is going. Lets see if I've got this right so far.

Format
People want a NO-GI instead of a MMA comp, at least as a starting point for the intervarsitys (I agree this can be progressed in future years if things go well)

Eligibility
I agree it should be open to current students only (sorry Roper) however I have no problem setting up a more open (individual) competition for alumni etc to run alongside. I do feel however that the current students events must be the centre piece.

Rules
I agree with a points system as draws are just a pain in the ass from a tournament perspective

Competition format (teams)
I like the camp based format here myself with a 5v5 6v6 team format were there are no weight classes (unless we can all supply a lot of entrants) but rather coaches choose who faces who. I think teams should be decided by inhouse competitions before the intervarsity. We already have some planned for our club in DCU for the start of next semester.

Competition format (individual)
This could be weight classed and run as a standard comp with alumni flying their colours to keep in tune with the spirit of the competition. 1 category for current students who arent' on the team and 1 category for alumni (this can include the Ropers JK's etc of this world). Decisions on amount of divisions etc are unrealistic until applications and number are known.

Venue
I will be talking to the powers that be in DCU on tuesday about several topics of discussion including hosting the intervarsitys here. Another possibility I plan on looking into is using the Irish/Dublin BJJ open venue in Team Rhino. I tried to ring Andy earlier but couldn't get through. Regardless, I will be talking to him on sunday at the Dublin open. I want to get as many options available as possible to avoid problems further down the road with big venue changes etc.




I think I covered everything here. If anybody has an issue with any of the above let me know (just don't jump the gun and start talking about things that are well down the road) and as far as the idea of forming a commitee consisting of all the chairpersons to finalise rules prizes etc...I like the concept. Each charman should email me at oisin.mccabe@gmail.com (if you haven't already).

Shamless plug http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=8116375072

And I'm spent *goes to ice fingers*

Oisin

Nothingcompares

OMCCABE wrote: »

Competition format (individual)
This could be weight classed and run as a standard comp with alumni flying their colours to keep in tune with the spirit of the competition. 1 category for current students who arent' on the team and 1 category for alumni (this can include the Ropers JK's etc of this world). Decisions on amount of divisions etc are unrealistic until applications and number are known.

Why do you want to keep team members out of this section? I say keep the three skill levels categories plus one for alumni. If entries are low, switch to 2 or 1 skill categories.

OMCCABE

Nothingcompares wrote: »

Why do you want to keep team members out of this section? I say keep the three skill levels categories plus one for alumni. If entries are low, switch to 2 or 1 skill categories.

I'm thinking that the team members (if the colleges compete in a round robin format) will already be having 4-5 bouts.

If the competition was in a knockout format of say

DCUvUCD--
--
--2nd round
--
TCDvUL --

etc..then I would say all the team members should have the option of competing in the individual too as if their team lost in the first round they would only have 1 fight.

However if we were working on a round robin format were every college competes against every college. (which I think works better and is in better spirit)
TCD UCD DCU etc
TCD
UCD
DCU
etc

The every team member would be gauranteed with a minimum of 4 matches if 5 teams entered 5 if 6 entered etc.

Again this structure is one that needs to be decided upon before categories etc.

I actually agree with having the 3 skill levels as a basic template and making changes if necessary later.

Oisin

Nothingcompares

OK. I'd be hoping for 8/10 fights if this intervars takes off.