How many sets for legs?

Flex

Hey lads, at the moment my leg routine is something like this

Box Squats x 5
Leg extentions x 3
Leg curls x 3
Leg press x 4

The problem I have at the moment though is that once I get through my Box Squats my legs are unbelievably pumped, stiff and sore. I can struggle throguh the Leg ext and leg curls, but theres no way I can do the leg press. That usually means I only get about 11 sets a week for my legs, which considering their size is very low in proportion to other muscle groups Id work like my delts or bi's.

How many sets is sufficient for your legs during the week, or should I consider training them twice a week? Because at the moment I really feel like I amnt training them to the level I should and Im missing out on GH production and so on being stimulated by training em harder. Or is 11 hard sets really enough for them each week?

Thanks

Brian?

No idea how many sets you should be doing to be honest. Maybe you're not resting enough between sets or doing your sets in the wrong order?

This is what I do, in this order, and I get through it every time.

Squats 5x5
Hamstring Curls 3x8
Walking Barbell lunges 3x8
DB Calf Raises 3x8
Leg extensions 3x8
Core work; plank, weighted crunches etc.

The last couple weeks I have been thinking of adding in more excercises or sets to up the intensity a little, just not sure which yet.

Transform

12 sets on quad dominant movements and a paltry 3 sets on hamstrings is not going to help things really.

I personally do not recommend doing leg only days but if you do them then at least balance it out - between hams/quads i.e. glute/ham raises, straight leg deadlifts etc would't bother with leg extensions and leg press also, lunges, step ups etc are going to get more GH release than those. Do them now and again but not as part of the regular program

Brian?

Transform,

I was working on the idea that my deadlift day, where I do 5x5 deads and 3x8 straight leg DL's was enough to compensate for the lack of ham work of the 'leg' day. I think of it more as a squat day.

Does this still need to be changed?

Cheers

Roper

Why box squats and not standard squats?

Transform

deadlifts and straight leg deadlifts on the same day!!

Thats just an insane amount of work for the lower back.

I would do a hard deadlift day once a week (same as squat - but knee injury at mo) and then a light day of straight leg deadlifts e.g. 60-80kg for 12-15reps and 4 sets.

So basically 3/4 weights sessions a week - two hard and one/two light.

As your weights go up your back needs the time to recover

Again as i mentioned i never do leg only days e.g. today was as follows

Trap bar deadlift (162kg 5 sets of 3 and one set of 10) paired with (+) dips (added 40kg 8reps for 4 sets)

Step ups onto bench (11kg dumbbells 8reps per leg 4 sets ) + One arm rows (42kg 10reps for 4sets)

Fly machine (do not usually do this) 12reps at the whole stack + Rollouts (12reps) + Calf raises (20reps holding 20kg dumbbell)

Light to finish Biceps curls 15kg db + Press ups 15reps for 4 rounds done back to back

Next session i hope to be back squatting and if not i will do lunges onto step or split squats and glute/ham raises as major leg exercises.

Brian?

Transform wrote: »

deadlifts and straight leg deadlifts on the same day!!

Thats just an insane amount of work for the lower back.

I would do a hard deadlift day once a week (same as squat - but knee injury at mo) and then a light day of straight leg deadlifts e.g. 60-80kg for 12-15reps and 4 sets.

So basically 3/4 weights sessions a week - two hard and one/two light.

As your weights go up your back needs the time to recover

Again as i mentioned i never do leg only days e.g. today was as follows

Trap bar deadlift (162kg 5 sets of 3 and one set of 10) paired with (+) dips (added 40kg 8reps for 4 sets)

Step ups onto bench (11kg dumbbells 8reps per leg 4 sets ) + One arm rows (42kg 10reps for 4sets)

Fly machine (do not usually do this) 12reps at the whole stack + Rollouts (12reps) + Calf raises (20reps holding 20kg dumbbell)

Light to finish Biceps curls 15kg db + Press ups 15reps for 4 rounds done back to back

Next session i hope to be back squatting and if not i will do lunges onto step or split squats and glute/ham raises as major leg exercises.

If I did that, I would be dead. lol.

I don't feel that doing deads and stiff leg deads are too hard on my back though. But I am not lifting that heavy yeat really, this week was my first time deadlifting 5x5 at 100kg. I will try switching the stiff leg deadlifts to my squat day if you think it would be more worthwhile.

Can I ask, why lunges onto a box?

brianthebard

If deads aren't hard on your back why are you doing them? Or are you sure you are doing them right?

Flex

Thanks for the replies everyone, really appreciate it!

Transform; the reason I had the routine I posted was because I felt that squats and leg press were more intense on my quads but also hit my hamstrings fairly hard, particularly leg press. Ill change it up though, thanks for the input.

Thanks everyone

Hanley

brianthebard wrote: »

If deads aren't hard on your back why are you doing them? Or are you sure you are doing them right?

The only time I ever "feel" deads in my back is if I'm doing high reps... And I don't really think deads should be done for high reps anyway. I'd nearly go as far as to say that if you're only feeling deads in your lower back, you're doing something wrong!

bob04

My leg workout is as follows

5 X Deep Squats (get that ass to the floor)
3 X SLDL's
4 X Calf Rasies

Thats it, simple, short, hard and heavy

Hanley

Hanley wrote: »

The only time I ever "feel" deads in my back is if I'm doing high reps... And I don't really think deads should be done for high reps anyway. I'd nearly go as far as to say that if you're only feeling deads in your lower back, you're doing something wrong!

Yeah that's the same as me man, I never ever feel deadlifts in my lowerback.

Transform

it really depends on your hight really - taller people can feel it more in lower back on deadlifts but its really a function of technique.

I would argue that once you get over 100kg on deadlifts, squats and are doing over 100kg on straight leg deadlifts its going to be hard to continue progressing your weights as there is much lower back involvement in all of these exercises even just as support muscles.

Most people i see over do it when it comes to leg work i.e. too many mickey mouse exercises and then a pityful squat (technique and weight lifted) or deadlift.

Brian?

brianthebard wrote: »

If deads aren't hard on your back why are you doing them? Or are you sure you are doing them right?

I never said they weren't hard, I said the combo of deads and and stiff leg deads wasn't TOO hard. There is no objective way to quantify that though really. After my DL day, my lower back is tired and feels like it has done some serious work, but I have no lower back pain whatsoever just the same muscle soreness I'd get in any other muscle group.

Hanley wrote: »

The only time I ever "feel" deads in my back is if I'm doing high reps... And I don't really think deads should be done for high reps anyway. I'd nearly go as far as to say that if you're only feeling deads in your lower back, you're doing something wrong!

I agree, I tried doing 15 reps of deads once just to see how it felt, never again.

I feel my back takes the biggest hammering from deads, but I also seriously feel it in my glutes and to a lesser extent quads. My forearms also feel like their going to explode as well.

Brian?

Transform wrote: »

it really depends on your hight really - taller people can feel it more in lower back on deadlifts but its really a function of technique.

I'm 6"3, but I rarely if ever suffer with lower back pain. So maybe my technique is ok? I was seriously worried about deadlifting at first because of my height, so I spent ages doing puny weights to get the technique right.

Transform wrote: »

I would argue that once you get over 100kg on deadlifts, squats and are doing over 100kg on straight leg deadlifts its going to be hard to continue progressing your weights as there is much lower back involvement in all of these exercises even just as support muscles

I read an article somewhere a while back, can't remember where now, that recommended that every workout regardless of how you split you workouts should contain lower back exercises,weighted hyperextensions, at the end as most lifter were being held back by poor lower back strength. I was wondering at the time would this be overkill, what do you think.

Transform

i think that if your doing straight leg deadlifts and deadlifts then there is enough lower back work in those already

Back extensions and tough core work are great for your training but deadlifts will put far greater work on your back/core than any core work done alone.

this is why i find that once you have worked your weights up (over body weight) then you need to become more selective about what you CAN keep increasing while doing light work on some exercise i.e. when aiming to bring up your squat its likely you will reach a sticking point sooner rather than later if your bringing up your deadlift every week also.

So are you going to get more from your training by advancing on the big exercises like the squat/deadlift/lunge etc or adding more weight to your back extensions? I think the development of the former will give better development whether your male/female/young/old.

Much better to be having a conversation about leg work than the usual 25sets of chest and biceps exercises!!!

kevpants

Just wanna put in a word in for Good Mornings since the conversation has turned to Squat / Deadlift assistance.

They're like rescuing an ugly squat for reps! That bar is in the toughest place, leverage wise, for the body to move it and it exaggerates a lot of the stress the squat or deadlift would cause on the lower back and hamstrings. I find them invaluable considering every max squat attempt I've taken on in the last few months has ended in a choice of" Good Morning out of it" or "Death".

I couldn't train the deadlift all the time it just takes too much out of me IMO.

Hanley

I'm genuinely surprised so many people aren't able to deadlift consistently for long period of time. Sure, if you're going balls to the wall every week and pull max single, triples, 5s, 8s or whatever it'll be hard to stay on top of it. But if you're building up over a 6 or 8 week period I don't see the problem...

Maybe I jsut have better than average recovery abilities tho.

Hanley

kevpants wrote: »

Just wanna put in a word in for Good Mornings since the conversation has turned to Squat / Deadlift assistance.

They're like rescuing an ugly squat for reps! That bar is in the toughest place, leverage wise, for the body to move it and it exaggerates a lot of the stress the squat or deadlift would cause on the lower back and hamstrings. I find them invaluable considering every max squat attempt I've taken on in the last few months has ended in a choice of" Good Morning out of it" or "Death".

I couldn't train the deadlift all the time it just takes too much out of me IMO.

Oh and +1 for the GM's.

kevpants

Hanley wrote: »

I'm genuinely surprised so many people aren't able to deadlift consistently for long period of time. Sure, if you're going balls to the wall every week and pull max single, triples, 5s, 8s or whatever it'll be hard to stay on top of it. But if you're building up over a 6 or 8 week period I don't see the problem...

Maybe I jsut have better than average recovery abilities tho.

You must be on steriods... yadda yadda yadda... always been suspicious... yadda yadda yadda.....tiny balls.

I should quantify that when I say can't I mean I'll stop getting stronger but my Deadlifting is based around max singles rather than reps.

I should also say that I think that Deadlifting for reps should only be done if you're going to be going into hospital ANYWAY and sure what's another ailment? Any more than 5 and pretty much all beginners form will degenerate into a mess of disc popping proportions. And by beginners I mean me too.

Roper

Hanley wrote: »

I'm genuinely surprised so many people aren't able to deadlift consistently for long period of time. Sure, if you're going balls to the wall every week and pull max single, triples, 5s, 8s or whatever it'll be hard to stay on top of it. But if you're building up over a 6 or 8 week period I don't see the problem...

Maybe I jsut have better than average recovery abilities tho.

Probably because you're aiming to peak at competition time and structure your training properly, but most people just go balls to the wall every time they deadlift, pulling their max or close to it everytime and at the least going to failure. Check out the logs and I bet you'll find that people have gone to failure a lot of the time, even when they're doing sets and not singles.

Hanley

Roper wrote: »

Probably because you're aiming to peak at competition time and structure your training properly, but most people just go balls to the wall every time they deadlift, pulling their max or close to it everytime and at the least going to failure. Check out the logs and I bet you'll find that people have gone to failure a lot of the time, even when they're doing sets and not singles.

Exactly. And I'd blame their application of the lift on the stagnation, soreness and general sh!ttiness they'll feel as a result. Not the lift itself. But I'm guessing that's what you were getting at too??

If people were just willing to postpone a big lift for 6-8 weeks and were prepared to work up to it instead of hammering their head against a wall they'd be much better off.

Hanley

kevpants wrote: »

You must be on steriods... yadda yadda yadda... always been suspicious... yadda yadda yadda.....tiny balls.

I should quantify that when I say can't I mean I'll stop getting stronger but my Deadlifting is based around max singles rather than reps.

I should also say that I think that Deadlifting for reps should only be done if you're going to be going into hospital ANYWAY and sure what's another ailment? Any more than 5 and pretty much all beginners form will degenerate into a mess of disc popping proportions. And by beginners I mean me too.

Haha it would explain the rage too eh?

I think sets of 6 are the most underrated thing you can do for your deadlift. They're just brutally fúcking disgustingly hard. But goddamn they made your erectors into two big thick concrete columns of muscle.

Sangre

kevpants wrote: »

I should also say that I think that Deadlifting for reps should only be done if you're going to be going into hospital ANYWAY and sure what's another ailment? Any more than 5 and pretty much all beginners form will degenerate into a mess of disc popping proportions. And by beginners I mean me too.

After getting back into the gym for an extended break I had just decided today to move from 8 to 5 reps on a deadlift. My form definitely drops past 5/6 reps. Although that might change when my flexibility is back where I want it.

beggars_bush

in a nutshell, what are the best three exercises for building general strength in the legs? often stuck for time on workouts

1 squat
2
3

Hanley

2 + 3 deadlift and front squat

Assuming you're not doing any other lower body movements.

BraziliaNZ

i just do squats, and it seems to be enough for my legs, about 7 sets of 8, with the last one being x20 of a lighter weight. Is that enough? Deadlifts wreck my lower back, and yes my form is perfect! Think I have dodgy lower back though.

Brian?

Transform wrote: »

i think that if your doing straight leg deadlifts and deadlifts then there is enough lower back work in those already

Back extensions and tough core work are great for your training but deadlifts will put far greater work on your back/core than any core work done alone.

this is why i find that once you have worked your weights up (over body weight) then you need to become more selective about what you CAN keep increasing while doing light work on some exercise i.e. when aiming to bring up your squat its likely you will reach a sticking point sooner rather than later if your bringing up your deadlift every week also.

I think see what you mean here. If I want to bring up my squat, which is my number 1 priority at the moment, I should leave my deadlift static or add weight less regularly or even deload and concentrate on adding weight onto my squat?

Transform wrote: »

So are you going to get more from your training by advancing on the big exercises like the squat/deadlift/lunge etc or adding more weight to your back extensions? I think the development of the former will give better development whether your male/female/young/old.

Much better to be having a conversation about leg work than the usual 25sets of chest and biceps exercises!!!

I see what you mean about the back extensions, would it overload my back if I added them into my bench day though? I was thinking of maybe doing high rep back extensions say 2x20 for mobility and conditioning.

You're right, there's a million discussions and articles on upper body stuff for every 1 on leg work I find.

Brian?

Hanley wrote: »

2 + 3 deadlift and front squat

Assuming you're not doing any other lower body movements.

I would have thought lunges rather than front squat, just to do some split leg work.

Roper

Hanley wrote: »

Exactly. And I'd blame their application of the lift on the stagnation, soreness and general sh!ttiness they'll feel as a result. Not the lift itself. But I'm guessing that's what you were getting at too??

Good guess. Take a lolly.

Transform

As a beginner you can progress well on squat and deadlift equally every week but as mentioned once you start to go past body weight most people will need to decide which one they want to keep pushing up.

This will be an obvious choice as your progress will stall on both i.e. you cant keep adding weight (thats assuming you have been adding weight in the smallest increments possible). Say you decide to keep upping the squat then you would lower the weight to 80% of your normal weight maybe add a rep or two and maintain that weight for as long as you can keep progressing your squat. After that take a week off hard training and maybe swap exercises.

I have NEVER seen anyone who can deadlift over 180kg that did not look big, strong and or in great shape. Most people cheat on squats by not going low enough but deadlift is a more honest exercise when done properly.

Degsy

Okay,so my deadlift has been stuck at the 170 mark for the last couple of months.This was a big improvement on what it was prior to that..however..i find even a 5kg increment too much and often notice my grip giving out before i get the bar up properly.What to do??

bob04

Degsy wrote: »

Okay,so my deadlift has been stuck at the 170 mark for the last couple of months.This was a big improvement on what it was prior to that..however..i find even a 5kg increment too much and often notice my grip giving out before i get the bar up properly.What to do??

Straps ?????

IMO you shouldnt sacrafice an increase in weight becuase your grip is letting you down

Transform

lay out your program for the week- weight, reps sets your stats etc

Degsy

Transform wrote: »

lay out your program for the week- weight, reps sets your stats etc

Deadlift day.
100k x 10
120k x7
140kx 4
150 x 2
160-170k x1

That may vary a little bit but thats pretty much the way i do it.last week i only did 5 sets of 3 reps at the same weights up to 160 when i got stuck on one rep.
I'm 5' 10" and 90ish kilos..i could easily lose a stone from round the belly so i'm not exactly ripped to shreds.

Roper

Degsy wrote: »

Deadlift day.
100k x 10
120k x7
140kx 4
150 x 2
160-170k x1

That may vary a little bit but thats pretty much the way i do it.last week i only did 5 sets of 3 reps at the same weights up to 160 when i got stuck on one rep.
I'm 5' 10" and 90ish kilos..i could easily lose a stone from round the belly so i'm not exactly ripped to shreds.

I don't think it's that you're stuck, just that you're planning badly. As I said above you're going to failure or near enough to failure every time. Try a few weeks of backing off and doing a standard 5x5 and then try your 170/175 every 4-6 weeks, not every session.

Brian?

Transform wrote: »

As a beginner you can progress well on squat and deadlift equally every week but as mentioned once you start to go past body weight most people will need to decide which one they want to keep pushing up.

This will be an obvious choice as your progress will stall on both i.e. you cant keep adding weight (thats assuming you have been adding weight in the smallest increments possible). Say you decide to keep upping the squat then you would lower the weight to 80% of your normal weight maybe add a rep or two and maintain that weight for as long as you can keep progressing your squat. After that take a week off hard training and maybe swap exercises.

I have NEVER seen anyone who can deadlift over 180kg that did not look big, strong and or in great shape. Most people cheat on squats by not going low enough but deadlift is a more honest exercise when done properly.

It'll be hard not to deadlift to my potential for a few weeks, it has yet to plateau in any serious way. My squat is whole other matter. Its pathetic. Ease back on the deads to squat more it is so.

By the way, I did a squat day last night. Added in stiff leg deadlifts to the program I listed before, hamstring DOMS of doom today. When I finished my 2nd set of 3, my hams went into some kind of crazy spasm I have never felt before, I can only describe it as a spasm and a cramp all at the same time. It made me do a little dance it was so weird. I gave the hamstrings a good stretch and it was fine after and I finished the 3rd set fine. Thanks for that.

kevpants

Degsy wrote: »

Deadlift day.
100k x 10
120k x7
140kx 4
150 x 2
160-170k x1

I'd say you're knackered by the time you get to the max single. This is a mix of high reps and heavy singles which IMO is just gonna make you tired and dissapointed. If you are doing multiple reps with submaximal weights let that be your session, don't go for a 1 rep PR at the end.

If you are going to lift heavy singles all the sets prior to it should be warm ups, you shouldn't arrive at your max attempt knackered. You get the benefits from straining to lift the heaviest weight possible not the build up. I differ from many who will say this lifting of max singles is about testing your strength. It's not. It's about repeatedly forcing your body to move as much as it can. This is why I always follow a max single with at least two more singles with slightly less weight. I try and get at least 3-4 lifts above 90% of my max on a heavy session.

Can't fault your enthusiasm, you're clearly trying to push hard but you have to choose between multiple reps to near failure and a heavy single.

Degsy

Was in last night and tried 5x5..i'll stick with that for a while.
Mind you,its bloody harder than it looks!

Transform

Roper wrote: »

I don't think it's that you're stuck, just that you're planning badly. As I said above you're going to failure or near enough to failure every time. Try a few weeks of backing off and doing a standard 5x5 and then try your 170/175 every 4-6 weeks, not every session.

totally agree and too many reps in warm up

Transform

briankeating wrote: »

It'll be hard not to deadlift to my potential for a few weeks, it has yet to plateau in any serious way. My squat is whole other matter. Its pathetic. Ease back on the deads to squat more it is so.

By the way, I did a squat day last night. Added in stiff leg deadlifts to the program I listed before, hamstring DOMS of doom today. When I finished my 2nd set of 3, my hams went into some kind of crazy spasm I have never felt before, I can only describe it as a spasm and a cramp all at the same time. It made me do a little dance it was so weird. I gave the hamstrings a good stretch and it was fine after and I finished the 3rd set fine. Thanks for that.

that super!!! Gotta love the nice pain in the hams from SLDL's !!!