Bad loosers !!!

shamrock29

I was in the bookies the other day and Davy Russell was riding the fav.
Anyway the horse didnt jump one hurdle well and was still going like
the winner just before the last flight.He belted the last and hung his head to one side awkardly and got beaten by half a length or so.
A punter beside me started cursing the jockey and saying he lost it for him and how i hope he falls and breaks his neck the next day out.
I turned to him and explained how the horse wasn't an easy rise and that Davy Russell is one of the best around(im sure others disagree )
When i went home after work that day i checked the results at Fairyhouse
and Russell had ridden 2 winners lol....
Do many of you punters blame jockeys for loosing your hard earned cash or do you see many punters complaining?
I always way up the jockeys form aswell as the horse and trainers before placing a bet(that way i cant be one of the moaners out there who blame ''a bad jockey'')

rynners

This could be a good and interesting thread shamrock. i like it already.

In my own opinion the answer is no, look at ruby the other day, ruptured spleen, many others who have gone before him have had worse and in some cases paid the ultimate price. To be doing what they're doing you need to be brave and fit. So russell lost a race, his horse belted the last and obviously started to hang, that wasn't the jock giving up but the horse! So, it was your punters friend who was at fault for picking the wrong horse? For him to say he hopes he breaks his neck, well if he gets upset about losing a bet because of that he shouldn't be betting..

scratch all that above, just realised i feel this was about richard hills.. (tongue iin cheek)

mike65

I'd never blame a jockey for coming to grief at a fence/ditch unless he put his horse in the way of a faller (by which I'm referring to a race recently where coming to the second last three horses were clear of the rest all that mine needed to do was get over which he did but he was closing in on the 2nd placed nag who made a horlix of it unbalanced and nearly took out mine, I like to think the jockey knew, as he crossed the line a plodding 4th, that he should have stayed clear of trouble).

Mike

Frankie Lee

I get pissed off but would never wish them to get hurt.
I generally have a good few jockeys I'd try avoid relying on if at all possible,
Slippers Madden for example drove me mad when riding favourites for Meade for a good while.
Also its a safe bet that if you have money on a Jessica Harrington horse that Andrew Leigh will fall off.

hiscan

Frankie Lee wrote: »

Also its a safe bet that if you have money on a Jessica Harrington horse that Andrew Leigh will fall off.

have to disagree with you there, i think you mean barry geraghty

Frazzled

shamrock29 wrote: »

I was in the bookies the other day and Davy Russell was riding the fav.
Anyway the horse didnt jump one hurdle well and was still going like
the winner just before the last flight.He belted the last and hung his head to one side awkardly and got beaten by half a length or so.
A punter beside me started cursing the jockey and saying he lost it for him and how i hope he falls and breaks his neck the next day out.
I turned to him and explained how the horse wasn't an easy rise and that Davy Russell is one of the best around(im sure others disagree )
When i went home after work that day i checked the results at Fairyhouse
and Russell had ridden 2 winners lol....
Do many of you punters blame jockeys for loosing your hard earned cash or do you see many punters complaining?
I always way up the jockeys form aswell as the horse and trainers before placing a bet(that way i cant be one of the moaners out there who blame ''a bad jockey'')

I cannot segregate myself from the betting shop punter brigade, because I would be a frequent visitor at lunchtime these days in Boyles near the bleeding horse. That is mainly due to the fact that it affords me about 45 minutes away from the office and during the NH season there are many decent novice races etc that are on as the first or second race on a midweek card. At the weekends I would either the course or play on betfair etc for the day. However some of the stuff that is spilled from the mouths of the shop punters is ridiculous.

The Russell comments bring this into focus. I was watching the Swordlestown Cup at Punchestown which was won by Big Zeb and the punters ere berating Russel for he ride on Thyne Again. In tha race both McCoy and Ruby, on Perce Rock and J'Vole rode like complete freshmen and set a ridiculous gallop. I is a race that both should be embarassed about when they review their big race rides. Geraghty and Russell rode perfect races on their two mounts and Zeb proved to be the better horse on the day. The pocket talking criticism of Davy was a laugh to listen to. We all, no matter how professional we try to be, will adopt a somewhat blinkered view of events when they don't run our way, but is a race can be put to the back of your mind and you apply your same thinking to the next contest, you will obviously benefit.

Russell is not far removed from bad rides however and in my opinion the ride he gave a steering job in a mares novic chase last year was horrendous. The mare was Talktothetail who was a certainty at Clonmel (I think). She was a super jumper and a very strong stayuer who was in a bad mares race, yet he held her up and she nwas nearly brought down 3 times by the falls of moderate mares in front of her. She eventually won and was greeted to the chants of an amazing ride in the shop, when it was clearly one of the most inept riding displays I witnessed last year. I was privy to the trainers instructions, which were to race prominently and keep out of trouble, so that would highlight the ride even more.

Some other Russell rides recently could be called into question, but whether they are bad rides are open to debate. The ride on Jaffonien behind Academy Sir Harry was flagged as a blatant non jigger, but the considerate manner in which a far from peak fit horse was handled will surely reap rewards later in the year when Arthur has him primed.

Similarly the obscure ride given to Scavenger last weekend at Navan has provoked some debate, but for a horse that had completely lost it since its race against Cooldine and a recent crushing fall, I thought it was anice ay to reintroduce it to the rigours (easy now!) of racing.

This should be an interesting thread if comtributed to objectively and I look forward to reading and contributing to it.

Frankie Lee

hiscan wrote: »

have to disagree with you there, i think you mean barry geraghty

Leigh has carried on that tradition well.

Frazzled

Frankie Lee wrote: »

I get pissed off but would never wish them to get hurt.
I generally have a good few jockeys I'd try avoid relying on if at all possible,
Slippers Madden for example drove me mad when riding favourites for Meade for a good while.
Also its a safe bet that if you have money on a Jessica Harrington horse that Andrew Leigh will fall off.

Can you elaborate re Andrew Leigh as I don't have exact figures to hand re each individual horse?

In 2008 Jessie has a 13% strike rate with her chasers and a 23% strike rate with Leigh.

In 2008 Jessie has a 14% strike rate wth her hurdlers and a 17% strike rate with Leigh.

From what I can remember he has been on board Badgerlaw and Lukie Victor when they fell, but I am strugglin with the others. He is a little too brave for his own good, but he should learn about this as he feels the pain. What others are there?

Frankie Lee

He got unseated on Valley of Giants a couple of weeks ago in Clonmel when I had money on him, it wasn't really his fault on that occasion but he has a bad habit of falling off horses when I have money on them.

Frazzled

Frankie Lee wrote: »

He got unseated on Valley of Giants a couple of weeks ago in Clonmel when I had money on him, it wasn't really his fault on that occasion but he has a bad habit of falling off horses when I have money on them.

Hopefully those lads will get a bit of compensation on Sunday with their new recruit Hugo de Vindecy. He is a nice horse but is a little weak and may not be up to landing a competitive bumper FTO. He should run well however.

Frankie Lee

I'll keep an eye on it.

Shan75

I think people always look to blame somebody else when they lose money on a horse.More often than not it's the jockey who is blamed.In my opinion the majority of the time the reason your fancy doesn't win is because the horse is not good enough on the day.There is nothing I hate more than people proclaiming "great ride" after a horse has won.Most of the time it's not.The guy who finished second or even tenth may have given an equally adequate ride but just was unlucky enough to be on a horse that wasn't good enough.Sometimes a winning ride can be worse than a losing one.I remember Fallon won one of the big sprint handicaps on a Dandy Nicholls horse(Gift something?)When he was interviewed afterwards he said it was a terrible ride and he could easily have lost if he didn't get a huge slice of luck even though everybody else was saying how brilliant it was.I tend to put more stock in the opinion of the jockey himself rather than the masses who back a winning favourite.

rynners

Shan75 wrote: »

I remember Fallon won one of the big sprint handicaps on a Dandy Nicholls horse(Gift something?).

gift horse

Frazzled

Shan75 wrote: »

I think people always look to blame somebody else when they lose money on a horse.More often than not it's the jockey who is blamed.In my opinion the majority of the time the reason your fancy doesn't win is because the horse is not good enough on the day.There is nothing I hate more than people proclaiming "great ride" after a horse has won.Most of the time it's not.The guy who finished second or even tenth may have given an equally adequate ride but just was unlucky enough to be on a horse that wasn't good enough.Sometimes a winning ride can be worse than a losing one.I remember Fallon won one of the big sprint handicaps on a Dandy Nicholls horse(Gift something?)When he was interviewed afterwards he said it was a terrible ride and he could easily have lost if he didn't get a huge slice of luck even though everybody else was saying how brilliant it was.I tend to put more stock in the opinion of the jockey himself rather than the masses who back a winning favourite.

Completely agree with this and Fallon's rides at Longchamp would be a prime example. His famed passage up the inside rail has worked a number of times but it has the potential to go horribly wrong and you are always dependent on a horse moving out or going backwards in a hurry. I don't like Soumillon but he hardly ever gets it wrong around Longchamp. Keeping it simple is always the best thing in my eyes.

The exception that I used to find to the great winning rides was Dunwoody, who is the best NH jock I have seen by a mile. Some of thee rides that he produced were unbelievable such as Unguided Missile and Hill of Tullow at Ascot, when any other jockey would have been on the deck. Paul Carberry on Dorans Pride was also excellent at Leopardstown when a young Florida Pearl fell (and cost me plenty). However in many cases, the jock is avoiding mistakes and the merit of the horse will decide the outcome.

rynners

Frazzled wrote: »

The exception that I used to find to the great winning rides was Dunwoody, who is the best NH jock I have seen by a mile. .

Dunwoody was yeah but if he wasn't around at that time you'd be saying it about maguire I think..

Morgans

Dunwoody was classier than Maguire. Effortless, never in the wrong position.

Maguire was the one who started the McCoy routine. But was a fantastic talent as well. After a couple of bad falls, he kinda lost his bottle (understandably) but in full flow was better than McCoy IMO.

Frazzled

Morgans wrote: »

Dunwoody was classier than Maguire. Effortless, never in the wrong position.

Maguire was the one who started the McCoy routine. But was a fantastic talent as well. After a couple of bad falls, he kinda lost his bottle (understandably) but in full flow was better than McCoy IMO.

Amazing how much bad luck Maguire had in his career. He was the perfect build for a National Hunt jockey and never had an issue with weight or dieting. As a result he should have been able to withstand falls better than someone like McCoy. However he got such crunching falls that nothing could be done about it. I remember him battling his way back from injury to get to the festival and then he was battered in a fall from Zabadi. Very unlucky.

abouttobebanned

Sometimes it's natural to bitch about something in the heat of the moment.

For example, I had a horse backed last week whose continued to do something that infuriated me. He was travelling wide of 3 horses and the horse to his immediate right kept on jumping left at his fences bringing my horse with him. Anybody else would think right i need to get away from this horse...instead he stayed right beside him and kept getting brought out when the horse jumped left, each time losing about 5-6 lengths.

Now, the jock was a 7 pound claimer, but if he keeps riding like that he's going to be a 7 pound claimer for the rest of his life.

Frazzled

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Sometimes it's natural to bitch about something in the heat of the moment.

For example, I had a horse backed last week whose continued to do something that infuriated me. He was travelling wide of 3 horses and the horse to his immediate right kept on jumping left at his fences bringing my horse with him. Anybody else would think right i need to get away from this horse...instead he stayed right beside him and kept getting brought out when the horse jumped left, each time losing about 5-6 lengths.

Now, the jock was a 7 pound claimer, but if he keeps riding like that he's going to be a 7 pound claimer for the rest of his life.

Geraghty on Catch Me at the Leopardstown meeting did something precisely the same when tracking Leading Run. Braindead display on that occasion. Andrew Lynch on Notre Pere on the other hand spotted the erratic jumping to the right of Chelsea Harbour last weekend and got himself out of the mess before the carnage happened at the following fence.

Shan75

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Sometimes it's natural to bitch about something in the heat of the moment.

For example, I had a horse backed last week whose continued to do something that infuriated me. He was travelling wide of 3 horses and the horse to his immediate right kept on jumping left at his fences bringing my horse with him. Anybody else would think right i need to get away from this horse...instead he stayed right beside him and kept getting brought out when the horse jumped left, each time losing about 5-6 lengths.

Now, the jock was a 7 pound claimer, but if he keeps riding like that he's going to be a 7 pound claimer for the rest of his life.

I'd agree with this and I have sometimes experienced this myself after backing a horse only to see it be brought wide or down or to end up falling because another horse veers across in flight.I can never understand why jockeys don't move away from erratic jumpers.Even experienced jockeys are guilty of this.

fr wishy washy

Frazzled wrote: »

Some other Russell rides recently could be called into question, but whether they are bad rides are open to debate. The ride on Jaffonien behind Academy Sir Harry was flagged as a blatant non jigger, but the considerate manner in which a far from peak fit horse was handled will surely reap rewards later in the year when Arthur has him primed.

Similarly the obscure ride given to Scavenger last weekend at Navan has provoked some debate, but for a horse that had completely lost it since its race against Cooldine and a recent crushing fall, I thought it was anice ay to reintroduce it to the rigours (easy now!) of racing.

Great post,but this is the bit that gets my goat with racing-particularly Irish racing.
The above 2 rides were blatent "schooling in public" offences (especially Jaffonien)that were just ignored by the stewards,I'm not saying that horses should be flogged in every race but to see no effort whatsoever for a whole race just makes my blood boil.

Adrian Maguire was a fantastic jockey:cool:

RichieLawlor

Sam Thomas got Kauto Star beat last week in the betfair chase. I hope Ruby is back forMasterminded or else Nichols gets someone else for the horses saftey

I think that if you put money down on a bet you should be entitled to say whatever you want about the horse/jockey.

meriwether

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Sam Thomas got Kauto Star beat last week in the betfair chase. I hope Ruby is back forMasterminded or else Nichols gets someone else for the horses saftey

Thomas did not get KS beaten.

KS is past it. He was flat out trying to keep up with Snoopy Loopy and Tamarimbleu. The pace and tiredness he was experiencing caused him to fall.

I usually enjoy your contributions, but thats wrong.

meriwether

rarnes1 wrote: »

I think that if you put money down on a bet you should be entitled to say whatever you want about the horse/jockey.

You are entitled to say what you want.

But what you say may not necessarily make sense, or be correct.

Frankie Lee

meriwether wrote: »

Thomas did not get KS beaten.

KS is past it. He was flat out trying to keep up with Snoopy Loopy and Tamarimbleu. The pace and tiredness he was experiencing caused him to fall.

I usually enjoy your contributions, but thats wrong.

Sam Thomas has a problem with technique when jumping and driving the horse home at the one time, his hold of the reins was way too loose and it has definitely been his fault his recent run of falls.
I don't think too much people have reason for complaint however as Nicholls yard is going through a terrible bit of form and his favourites are to be avoided.

shamrock29

meriwether wrote: »

You are entitled to say what you want.

But what you say may not necessarily make sense, or be correct.

I agree to a certain point but at the end of the day,the jockey is risking himself out there and the trainers and owners put alot of time and money into the industry.No point in wishing them bad fortune just cause your horse fell or didnt win.
ps the horse in question is running today Admiral Barry in the first race at 12.35 and is being ridden by Barry Geraghty instead of Russell and is
over 8-1 on betfair and 6-1 with paddypower.If he actually jumps a hurdle today he will be hard to beat but thats a big IF.

NewApproach

Degenerate Gamblers etc

RichieLawlor

meriwether wrote: »

Thomas did not get KS beaten.

KS is past it. He was flat out trying to keep up with Snoopy Loopy and Tamarimbleu. The pace and tiredness he was experiencing caused him to fall.

I usually enjoy your contributions, but thats wrong.

I think Nicholls will find someone else for MasterMinded, thomas is just not good enough, just shows what a monster Denman is, Noel Fehily could probably win on Denman:pac:

As for Kauto Star being past it, get a hold of yourself man, will win the King George doing handstands with Ruby back in the plate

franny1

i totally agree,
These ppl always blame jockeys and they never blame themselves.After all , they picked the horse knowing who was gonna ride it! Personally, i have a few jockeys that i wont back if he's on a horse i like and just stay out of the race.

The majority of jockeys are real professional that have to go through the pain barrier of not eating properly (close to starvation, poor andy mac).

My main jockey is stay away from is Mr A J hogan (hope no offence is caused here).i cursed him that for his ride on bluebyyou in galway festival last year (his father owned the horse) but never backed him again with him on board.im sure he's a good jockey and everyone makes mistakes but random punters blaming a jockey one day and being his best friend the next day is just sad.

i think they need to revaluate their own betting strategy and stop annoying other ppl

(by the way i backed that gift horse that day in goodwood, i thought the ride was good )

shamrock29

shamrock29 wrote: »

I agree to a certain point but at the end of the day,the jockey is risking himself out there and the trainers and owners put alot of time and money into the industry.No point in wishing them bad fortune just cause your horse fell or didnt win.
ps the horse in question is running today Admiral Barry in the first race at 12.35 and is being ridden by Barry Geraghty instead of Russell and is
over 8-1 on betfair and 6-1 with paddypower.If he actually jumps a hurdle today he will be hard to beat but thats a big IF.

well the horse came know where but guess who won the race(jockey that is)
yes you guessed Davy Russell......

meriwether

RichieLawlor wrote: »

I think Nicholls will find someone else for MasterMinded, thomas is just not good enough, just shows what a monster Denman is, Noel Fehily could probably win on Denman:pac:

As for Kauto Star being past it, get a hold of yourself man, will win the King George doing handstands with Ruby back in the plate

Gold cup -outclassed.
Aintree: Our Vic makes up 11 lengths from King George
Down Royal - doesn't matter
Last time out - further stinker to effin Tamarimbleu and Snoopy effin Loopy.

As the CIA say, once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action.

meriwether

shamrock29 wrote: »

well the horse came know where but guess who won the race(jockey that is)
yes you guessed Davy Russell......

If davy Russell was on Pegasus, he wouldn't have beatebn Tharaawat that day.

We will that horse on Friday in Cheltenham.

shamrock29

I agree with you,looked a good horse and the trainer was trying to talk him down but you could sense he might have him entered in a few big races ie triumph hurdle.