Christians and Animals.

AnimalRights

Not sure how this will go down but....
Why do Catholics harvest, then kill and then eat Animals?
Animals have rights and don't deserve to be fed to us.

oobydooby

I know Catholics who are vegetarian.

Nerin

What has this got to do with catholics? Many faiths do this

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Catholicism doesn't say/teach anything about the rights of animals. In fact it completely affirms man's position as being infinitely superior to other animals.

AnimalRights

Nerin wrote: »

What has this got to do with catholics? Many faiths do this

Yeah I edited thread title, not sure about other religions such as non christian.

oobydooby wrote: »

I know Catholics who are vegetarian.

Most are not and obviously this is directed at the ones who are not.

AnimalRights

Sean_K wrote: »

Catholicism doesn't say/teach anything about the rights of animals. In fact it completely affirms man's position as being infinitely superior to other animals.

That to me is wrong though, surely all living breathing things should be at least not equal but allowed to live side by side with us?

Nerin

AnimalRights wrote: »

That to me is wrong though, surely all living breathing things should be at least not equal but allowed to live side by side with us?

There are many christians that respect animals position on the planet alongside themselves. Many of these are carnivores too. Many western buddhists eat meat based on this fact-when monks where given food,they saw it as disrespectful to the dead animal to refuse to eat it. Its already been killed,for the purpose of food. Not eating it therefore can be seen as disrespectful.

From a pagan animist view,i'd be more along the lines of the buddhist monks not refusing.
Its natural for animals in nature to eat eachother to survive,so shall I. I have no problems hunting and eating my kill. From my point of view,bloodsports would be wrong. But eating meat is not.

Again,not all of my points are in a christian sense,but they can shine light on how people can justify it.

AnimalRights

Nerin wrote: »

Its natural for animals in nature to eat eachother to survive,so shall I. I have no problems hunting and eating my kill.

We are meant to be superior?
We can live without meat etc..
This thread is really aimed at the religious people, hence the posting of it in here, I am curious how they worship a God and yet eat his animals.

ChocolateSauce

AnimalRights wrote: »

That to me is wrong though, surely all living breathing things should be at least not equal but allowed to live side by side with us?

I'm with the Christians on this one, humans are superior to other animals. The idea that I'm not better than a dog is an insulting accusation. Any talk of treating animals kindly is talk of treating your lessers with compassion (and how you treat your lessers is a good measure of what kind of person you are), not your equals.

JimiTime

As a Christian, I believe we have been given domion over the animals. We have also been told that we can use them for food. There is and should not be, anything wrong with being a meat eater or vegetarian to a Christian. Also the comment about 'eating his animals', well he said we could, and legislates for it.

Nerin

AnimalRights wrote: »

We are meant to be superior?
We can live without meat etc..
This thread is really aimed at the religious people, hence the posting of it in here, I am curious how they worship a God and yet eat his animals.

Well,christians believe in gods eyes they are the top yes.

I'm a pagan,so i see animals as equals,alot of them better than some humans

The deities i show respect to,or the spirits i belief in are of nature,they are grey,neither totally good or bad. Animals are neither good nor bad,the same with people.

Again,these are my opinions animalrights.
Christianity has a more set list of beliefs than the different branches of whats considered paganism.

Gambler

Can I ask, do you think we should try and stop animals from eating each other too?

AnimalRights

Is your forum aimed at would be stand up Comics or the Marvel types?

Anyway to the actual thread, obviously from my point of view I am disappointed with the Catholics views and if anything they even fit as how should I put it the stereotype religious out of touch that I and my friends already think that they are....not meaning to disrespect but I assumed they would have shown compassion to fellow living creatures.
Who actually gave out this command that it was ok to harvest and eat animals btw? Imagine if he jumped over a cliff... :eek:

oobydooby

AnimalRights wrote: »

Anyway to the actual thread, obviously from my point of view I am disappointed with the Catholics views and if anything they even fit as how should I put it the stereotype religious out of touch that I and my friends already think that they are....

Seems your prejudices were well founded. By the way have any Catholics actually answered your query?

Fanny Cradock

AnimalRights wrote: »

Is your forum aimed at would be stand up Comics or the Marvel types?

Anyway to the actual thread, obviously from my point of view I am disappointed with the Catholics views and if anything they even fit as how should I put it the stereotype religious out of touch that I and my friends already think that they are....not meaning to disrespect but I assumed they would have shown compassion to fellow living creatures.
Who actually gave out this command that it was ok to harvest and eat animals btw? Imagine if he jumped over a cliff... :eek:

Not all Christians are Catholics. Given your original thread title and your above remark, this distinction seems not to be clear to you.

I would reckon that most of the human population are omnivores, so I don't really think that Christians who eat meat could be considered 'out of touch' in this regard. Actually, it would be interesting to see exactly what percentage of the earth's population consumes meat.

Regarding the authority given to eat meat, Christians would look at a verse like Genesis 9:3.

Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything

,8,1

I'm a pagan,so i see animals as equals,alot of them better than some humans

The deities i show respect to,or the spirits i belief in are of nature,they are grey,neither totally good or bad. Animals are neither good nor bad,the same with people.

Pagan relativity... :rolleyes:

condra

Sean_K wrote:

In fact it completely affirms man's position as being infinitely superior to other animals.

Incorrect. Christian dogma does not affirm anything, rather, it postulates that man is superior to other animals.

Only if you are a practising Christian is that "affirmed", but just like your "knowledge" of Gods existence, it is debatable in the real world (where most people live)

Sorry for picking on that point, but it bugs me when religious people present dogmatic beliefs as fact rather than belief/opinion.

Look at how Nerin presented his viewpoint.

I'm a pagan,so i see animals as equals,alot of them better than some humans

That's how it should be done IMO.

-

AnimalRights, I don't see the point in picking on Christians, or religious people at all. Carnivory/omnivory is part of most religions, cultures, and human history.

As far as I know, meat has always been part of the human diet, though not strictly essential, and many of our ape cousins hunt and eat meat too, disturbing as it may be.

Also, in defense of the religious, many of them will show gratitude to God, or the animal itself, little consolation to the animal, but strangely noble in my eyes.

I think most meat-eating humans, religious or otherwise, see meat as a "necessary evil", and we hope (and some trust) that the meat we eat comes from an animal that was treated reasonably, and slaughtered humanely.

Personally, the concept of raising an animal with the sole intention of exploiting it and killing it to eat, does not bother me, as long as the animal doesn't suffer.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

womoma wrote: »

Incorrect. Christian dogma does not affirm anything, rather, it postulates that man is superior to other animals.

Only if you are a practising Christian is that "affirmed", but just like your "knowledge" of Gods existence, it is debatable in the real world (where most people live)

Sorry for picking on that point, but it bugs me when religious people present dogmatic beliefs as fact rather than belief/opinion.

Look at how Nerin presented his viewpoint.

That's how it should be done IMO.

Well you about from now on you infer the presence of an "IMO" before all my posts:pac:

Oh and I do hate to be tarred a "religious" person, especially given that it's simply not true.:p

I will try and choose my words more carefully in future

AnimalRights

Womama good informative reply...
Why I mentioned Catholics/Christians is because I assume I know a wee bit, not much as I only did religion in school were it was forced on me.
I mentioned Catholics/Christianity as to me comared to other races that I know off (which is prob little) they seem the one who disappoint me most that they are animal eaters.

AnimalRights

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Regarding the authority given to eat meat, Christians would look at a verse like Genesis 9:3.

Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything

Is Genesis part of one of the testaments? If so who wrote it?
And if it was God/Jesus whomever where is the proof?

Do you not find it odd that God/Jesus performed miracles yoinks ago but they never do now?

I wonder how Christian Veggies feel in this debate, pity none have responded yet...because the quote you gave me sounds like that a christian person is a veggie he is going against the "Everything that lives and moves will be food for you" bit.

Nerin

AnimalRights wrote: »

Is Genesis part of one of the testaments? If so who wrote it?
And if it was God/Jesus whomever where is the proof?

Do you not find it odd that God/Jesus performed miracles yoinks ago but they never do now?

I wonder how Christian Veggies feel in this debate, pity none have responded yet...because the quote you gave me sounds like that a christian person is a veggie he is going against the "Everything that lives and moves will be food for you" bit.

Plants are theirr to eat too,its all about choice. Genesis is in the old testament.

CerebralCortex

AnimalRights wrote: »

That to me is wrong though, surely all living breathing things should be at least not equal but allowed to live side by side with us?

No you should know thats wrong from just looking at nature and how other animal's survival depends on eating other animals.

JimiTime

AnimalRights wrote: »

Is Genesis part of one of the testaments? If so who wrote it?
And if it was God/Jesus whomever where is the proof?

Do you not find it odd that God/Jesus performed miracles yoinks ago but they never do now?

I wonder how Christian Veggies feel in this debate, pity none have responded yet...because the quote you gave me sounds like that a christian person is a veggie he is going against the "Everything that lives and moves will be food for you" bit.

Your question has been answered quite concisely. You don't like it, but it was answered. Now you are trying to question the foundations of Christian belief, which is a giant leap from, 'why do christians eat meat'. Its simple, God allows us to, and legislates for it. You don't like meat being eaten, fair enough, but its ok for a Christian to eat meat, veg and anything else God has declared clean for consumption. Meat eating and Christianity are wholly compatibe. Its that simple.

ChocolateSauce

AnimalRights wrote: »

Is your forum aimed at would be stand up Comics or the Marvel types?

Anyway to the actual thread, obviously from my point of view I am disappointed with the Catholics views and if anything they even fit as how should I put it the stereotype religious out of touch that I and my friends already think that they are....not meaning to disrespect but I assumed they would have shown compassion to fellow living creatures.
Who actually gave out this command that it was ok to harvest and eat animals btw? Imagine if he jumped over a cliff... :eek:

Showing compassion and not eating them are two very different things. Do both! There's a special kind of cow which is coddled from birth, read to, sang to, and generally pampered like Persian Emperors because when we slaughter 'em they taste nicer!

Fanny Cradock

womoma wrote: »

Incorrect. Christian dogma does not affirm anything, rather, it postulates that man is superior to other animals.

Only if you are a practising Christian is that "affirmed", but just like your "knowledge" of Gods existence, it is debatable in the real world (where most people live)

Sorry for picking on that point, but it bugs me when religious people present dogmatic beliefs as fact rather than belief/opinion.

Christians DO affirm that we have been given precedence over all other living things on this earth. Given that you are on the Christianity forum discussing Christian beliefs, I would think that there is little point in splitting hairs over what is affirmed and what is postulated.

Goduznt Xzst

womoma wrote: »

Personally, the concept of raising an animal with the sole intention of exploiting it and killing it to eat, does not bother me, as long as the animal doesn't suffer.

Give me an instance when you imagine the animal doesn't suffer? Theres a reason they don't offer tours of abattoirs.

In fairness to the OP, we don't eat meat because of religion, we began eating it for the same reasons that animals kill and eat other animals now. Yes, in the first world, we have the privilege and luxury of choosing to not eat meat and replace its nutrients with other non-meat substitutes, but we didn't always.

Also, what is your stance on the animals that are killed to clear land for crops or land that is cleared for housing? Should we also cease these activities also? If we to respect the rights of all animals we'd have to contain ourselves in a bubble and have no interaction with this planet at all.

CiDeRmAn

From a strictly biological standpoint, we are designed to process meat amongst other foods, we have an inbuilt pleasure response to eating meat.
The only bad thing about meat is, perhaps, we eat too much of it, and at that bad, fat laden cuts of it.
Eating meat, cetain kinds of meat, is of course prohibited in some faiths, ie Jewish and Moslems not eating pork etc, but that is more of an imperitive when living ina desert enviroment and want to stay healthy, avoiding meats that spoil quickly in heat and can kill you seems like good advice.
The other thing that, for moral individuals as well as christians, would be the desire to reduce the cruelty suffered by the animals to be "processed" into the products we consume.
This is a movement that is gathering much momentum these days and should be applauded.
Of course the act of killing an animal to feed our need for meat will always be unacceptable to some, so their abstencion seems understandable.

Also, it has to be said, if a christian you are, and take the lessons in the bible seriously, then mans superior station above animals is implicit, as is the need for man to respect those same animals, and the world both man and animal inhabit.

And, with vegetarians and vegans in mind, what of the "pests" killed off by either pesticide or natural means to produce their diets staples, are they ok to kill, whatever method of dispatch is used?
Is an animal more disposable once it is insect?

What about household pests like mice or rats?

What then?

I, myself, am reluctant to kill mice but rats, well, they have it coming to them!

PDN

If veggies want to abstain from meat then that is their call. As for me, as a Christian I'm very happy to eat meat.

I'm not quite sure why the OP wants to try to make a religious issue out of this.

Gambler

PDN wrote: »

If veggies want to abstain from meat then that is their call. As for me, as a Christian I'm very happy to eat meat.

I'm not quite sure why the OP wants to try to make a religious issue out of this.

Hear Hear

AnimalRights

PDN wrote: »

I'm not quite sure why the OP wants to try to make a religious issue out of this.

If veggies want to abstain from meat then that is their call. As for me, as a Christian I'm very happy to eat meat.

Thats the thing, I don't.
I wanted to know how Christians/Catholics justified it, I got some replies that explained this, obviously I didn't agree with them but this thread has served its purpose for me as I learned a bit about how religious meat eaters think.

And to call it abstaining makes it sound like a political vote, I was talking about life which to me should be respected be it human/animal.

Nerin

AnimalRights wrote: »

Thats the thing, I don't.
I wanted to know how Christians/Catholics justified it, I got some replies that explained this, obviously I didn't agree with them but this thread has served its purpose for me as I learned a bit about how religious meat eaters think.

And to call it abstaining makes it sound like a political vote, I was talking about life which to me should be respected be it human/animal.

How can you see abstinence as political?

AnimalRights

Government voting (Where that word is used most) :P
I am obviously watching politics too much....

Nerin

AnimalRights wrote: »

Government voting (Where that word is used most) :P
I am obviously watching politics too much....

may i suggest sky digital. 520 and upwards,documentaries ftw

Húrin

AnimalRights wrote: »

Is Genesis part of one of the testaments? If so who wrote it?
And if it was God/Jesus whomever where is the proof?

Genesis is the first book of the old Testament. Traditionally the authorship has been credited to Moses, but modern scholars are AFAIK not sure. In any case it is a history/mythology book that covers about 2,400 years from creation to escape from Egypt.

No part of the Bible was written by God, a claim never made by Christianity.

Do you not find it odd that God/Jesus performed miracles yoinks ago but they never do now?

God performs many miracles every day. The main difference between then and now is that he does it through his followers rather than directly, which is how it has been since the book of Acts (that is the book straight after the Gospels of Jesus in the New Testament.)

I wonder how Christian Veggies feel in this debate, pity none have responded yet...because the quote you gave me sounds like that a christian person is a veggie he is going against the "Everything that lives and moves will be food for you" bit.

I am a Christian vegetarian. Like many people who are unfamiliar with the Bible you seem to assume it is a litany of moral commands. That is simplistic and false. By your logic anybody who doesn't like a particular food (i.e. everyone) is "disobeying God", as if he told us to eat everything.

I also think that eating meat is the least among humanity's collective affront to animal rights. The relentless expansion of industry, agriculture and other kinds of ecological destruction are far worse than eating meat (in moderate quantities). The above problems are caused by greed, alienation, worry, lust for power and other things that God opposes.

Genesis 9 takes place after Adam and Eve and after Noah. You may be interested to know that in the original created earth, according to the first chapters of Genesis, Adam and Eve were vegetarians. Only after the fall did meat eating start. And thus, in the renewed world that God will bring to us, there will be no eating of meat.

If you want to learn more about Christian attitudes to animals, St. Francis of Assisi is probably the all-time expert.

condra

And to call it abstaining makes it sound like a political vote, I was talking about life which to me should be respected be it human/animal.

Respected as in preserved no matter what, or respected as in treated with dignity and not destroyed unless neccessary?

And what of microscopic life, bacteria, parasites, sperm?? What of insects? What of disease ridden vermon?

I don't think anything around the subject of vegetarianism is black/white, and equally so with most religious or ethical topics.

Puck

AnimalRights wrote: »

I was talking about life which to me should be respected be it human/animal.

Vegetables are alive.

AtomicHorror

womoma wrote: »

And what of microscopic life, bacteria, parasites, sperm?? What of insects? What of disease ridden vermon?

Feel free to kill, cook and eat all of the above.

rockbeer

AnimalRights wrote: »

I mentioned Catholics/Christianity as to me comared to other races that I know off (which is prob little) they seem the one who disappoint me most that they are animal eaters.

Er, please tell me you do understand the difference between faith and race.

condra

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Feel free to kill, cook and eat all of the above.

I would like to but I'll have to check that in my Flying Spaghetti Monster (PBUH) manual.

midlandsmissus

I'm Christian and a vegetarian. The majority of humans are meat eaters, so you cant apportion blame to one faith. Even if i wasnt religious, I would be vegetarian. I dont think anything should die just for me to eat it.

AtomicHorror

womoma wrote: »

I would like to but I'll have to check that in my Flying Spaghetti Monster (PBUH) manual.

Only noodles and other varieties of the Stranded Pasta Kind are forbidden as they are sacred. All other things are edible by the faithful. Preferably fried.

AtomicHorror

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I'm Christian and a vegetarian. The majority of humans are meat eaters, so you cant apportion blame to one faith. Even if i wasnt religious, I would be vegetarian. I dont think anything should die just for me to eat it.

Isn't it more about suffering and pain? I mean, your lentils still die for you.

midlandsmissus

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Isn't it more about suffering and pain? I mean, your lentils still die for you.

Ughh who eats lentils, not me!:pac: Ah no seriously, yeah it is about suffering and pain.

I suppose to be exactly correct, it's about causing the least suffering and pain I can, without dying myself. I mean, I need to eat something to survive.

santing

AnimalRights wrote: »

Thats the thing, I don't.
I wanted to know how Christians/Catholics justified it, I got some replies that explained this, .

Too add to your list:

It is an explicit command of God:

Act 10:12-15 ESV In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. (13) And there came a voice to him: "Rise, Peter; kill and eat." (14) But Peter said, "By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean." (15) And the voice came to him again a second time, "What God has made clean, do not call common."

Abstaining is attributed to teaching of demons:

1Ti 4:1-5 ESV Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, (2) through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, (3) who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. (4) For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, (5) for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

In type, eating of meat reflects back on the fall in sin of man, and our reliance on the death of Another to live. It is directly linked to the eating of the Passover meal, where a (one year old male) lamb was consumed, originally to protect the firstborn son from dying, and in remembrance of this, but also in complete fulfillment it referes to the Lord Jesus dying in our place.

Whispered

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Regarding the authority given to eat meat, Christians would look at a verse like Genesis 9:3.

Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything

I am vegetarian, but it is a moral issue for me, not religious. But just out of interest, by me not eating meat, am I basicially telling "god" to stick his gifts? Am I insulting him by refusing to eat something he gave us.

womoma wrote: »

.



I think most meat-eating humans, religious or otherwise, see meat as a "necessary evil", and we hope (and some trust) that the meat we eat comes from an animal that was treated reasonably, and slaughtered humanely.

Personally, the concept of raising an animal with the sole intention of exploiting it and killing it to eat, does not bother me, as long as the animal doesn't suffer.

With all due respect, hoping and trusting that an animal is not mistreated during it's life is akin to burying your head in the sand. Most animals reared by humans for food are not treated properly. (well IMO it's not properly) Any bit of research will confirm this. I am not against meat by any means. In fact a recent thread in the food forum from a man who wanted to know the legalities of rearing and slaughtering his own animals got full support from me. If you know where your meat came from and you know it was treated correctly then great. Unfortunately, if not, chances are you will be eating something who suffered all through it's life to become food.

PDN wrote: »

If veggies want to abstain from meat then that is their call. As for me, as a Christian I'm very happy to eat meat.

I'm not quite sure why the OP wants to try to make a religious issue out of this.

+1 I can't really see the religious issue myself.

Húrin wrote: »

I also think that eating meat is the least among humanity's collective affront to animal rights. .

+1000

santing wrote: »

Too add to your list:

It is an explicit command of God:

Abstaining is attributed to teaching of demons:.

Are you serious? So in that vein, if you don't like turnip, or the thought of eating insects turn your stomach, you will in fact go to hell?

JimiTime

helena.ryan wrote: »

Are you serious? So in that vein, if you don't like turnip, or the thought of eating insects turn your stomach, you will in fact go to hell?

The context is if someone says its a 'requirement' that you don't eat meat, they are going against what god has said. One can choose not to, thats not a problem. Look at Mishak, Shadrak and Abendego, thats a pretty good advert for vegetarianism:) once someone says, you can't eat meat, is when they've overstepped the mark.

Biro

helena.ryan wrote: »

I am vegetarian, but it is a moral issue for me, not religious. But just out of interest, by me not eating meat, am I basicially telling "god" to stick his gifts?

No "helena", you're not. You're obviously not telling Him anything.

Nerin

Biro wrote: »

No "helena", you're not. You're obviously not telling Him anything.

Whispered

Nerin wrote: »

+1 must be some sort of cryptic thing you only know about if you join the club.

Biro

helena.ryan wrote: »

+1 must be some sort of cryptic thing you only know about if you join the club.

You asked a question, I answered it.

Whispered

Biro wrote: »

You asked a question, I answered it.

Well thank you very much for taking the time to answer my question, it has enlightened me no end.



(I think)