M4 toll VAT increase

nhughes100

As of the 1st December the most expensive toll in the country is set to get worse with the half a percent increase in VAT justifying a 10cent or 7.4% increase in tolls for hard pressed commuters.

Not only is there an increase in December but they always put it up by 10 cent in the new year as well. I've sent them an email and encourage you to do the same to your local TD. I plan to send to Senator Shane Ross too since he does some great campaigning for the M50 toll which incidentally appears to be VAT exempt(according to a receipt I got when paying for a toll at the airport recently)

This is disgraceful, almost 6 euro a day just for a regular car is shocking. The old Kinnegad road is no alternative, it's single lane, very bad for overtaking and you've to go through 3 traffic blackspots on the way as well as the slip road at Kilcock jammed in the mornings going into Dublin and in the evenings coming out of Dublin.

Copy of email sent to customerservice@eurolink-m4.ie

Could you tell me if the toll is set to increase in January 2009 as well as the 10 cent vat increase which is due December 1st 2008.

Could you also advise on how a half percent increase in VAT has justified a 7.4% increase in the toll. This represents about 50 euro a year to commuters like myself who use the toll road every day. I already pay over 1200 euro a year in tolls and think that this increase(1.35 cent per journey) could have been absorbed by the toll operator

Regards,

Tarabuses

Profiteering, and in a time of economuic turmoil as well. It should make a good story for the newspapers and is also a warning to look at for others taking advantage of the VAT change.

In fact the increase in VAT from 21% to 21.5% should only result in a 0.41% increase in prices. That would result in a new toll of €2.71 which I would have expected to be deferred until the annual revision on 1st January.

crapmanjoe

Your right about the M50 - there is not vat

But thats not a good thing, they just replaced the VAT with a price increase and now business can no longer claim the vat back

everybody loses

As some1 who uses the M4 twice a month it wont effect me to much but its still disgracefully high, espically since Cork road only has a 1.80 toll!

No way will I use the new M6 toll road when opened, take the free by pass of ballinasloe and then hit the old road - no bad traffic spots there anyway

nhughes100

Why is there VAT on one toll and VAT on the others?

lynchie

nhughes100 wrote: »

Why is there VAT on one toll and VAT on the others?

Cause the govt own the M50 now while they dont own the others. The Govt cant charge VAT on services.

nhughes100

Response from the M4 Eurolink people. I love the way they turned a complaint into an opportunity to sell me something.

"Thank you for contacting us.

In order to understand the toll increase, it is necessary to draw attention to the Toll Rates calculation method established by our PPP contract.

Every year, the rates are updated following the Consumer Price Index (CPI) published by the Central Statistics Office (CSO). The resulting figure, once the CPI is applied, is then rounded up or down to the closest ten cent fraction.

Last year these calculations resulted in €2.74 and therefore the toll fare was rounded down to €2.70, during the first 11 months of this year. Now, and due to a Governmental decision, the calculation with the new VAT rate goes up beyond €2.75 and therefore the tariff is rounded up to €2.8 for next month.



Regarding the new 2009 toll rates, we can confirm that they include the inflation index for the year 2008.

Also, we would like to take this opportunity to let you know about our 20 trip Prepayment Cards which are convenient for regular commuters like yourself. Basically these cards apply a 10% discount to the applicable toll rates. Please do not hesitate to contact our Customer Service should you require any further information on this.

We hope this clarifies your query and thank you for your valued custom."

Cookie_Monster

nhughes100 wrote: »

Last year these calculations resulted in €2.74 and therefore the toll fare was rounded down to €2.70, during the first 11 months of this year. Now, and due to a Governmental decision, the calculation with the new VAT rate goes up beyond €2.75 and therefore the tariff is rounded up to €2.8 for next month.

Thats a handy 5c for doing absolutly nothing!

How they were able to get something like that in the contract in crazy. It should always be rounded down to nearest 10c rather than up. More Rip Off Ireland at work:mad:

nhughes100

The main reason for this is that the exact change lanes can't handle 5, 2 & 1 cent coins.

GerardKeating

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Thats a handy 5c for doing absolutly nothing!

How they were able to get something like that in the contract in crazy. It should always be rounded down to nearest 10c rather than up. More Rip Off Ireland at work:mad:

How is this a "rip off", they discounted the toll by 4 cent for 11 month !!!

anotherlostie

So it is gone to 2.80 now, and will presumably go up again in January with an index linked rise - will this be less than 5%, in which case the toll will rise to €2.90? (14c increase to 2.94, rounded down to 2.90). Everyone will be back on the old road! Or in true PPP fashion, will they be entitled to an inflation busting rise?

steyr fan

Last evening when returning to Dublin from the West, the express lane was closed, as were 3 of the booth lanes. There were at least 7 cars queing for each of the open lanes.

Now while I have no huge issue with paying a toll to get from A to B quicker, I do have a major difficulty with having to pay an extra toll, and then to have to wait 10 minutes to pay it.

Is it not time for lets say boycotting the toll road for one hour on a selected day, and to gradually increase the length of the boycott until the government does something about taxpayers being ripped off even more?

I am so very pissed off:mad:

nhughes100

GerardKeating wrote: »

How is this a "rip off", they discounted the toll by 4 cent for 11 month !!!

One - it's the most expensive car toll in the country to begin with.

Two - They'll get the 4 cent back over the next 13 months.

Three - Their machines don't handle legal tender like 5cent coins so guess who gets to pay the difference.

Four - The alternative road is single lane and very difficult to overtake. If the government were serious about road safety they would toll this road so lorries and trucks wouldn't use it where instead to save the 14euro toll they use the crap road instead of the much safer motorway!

Now that clear it up?

GerardKeating

nhughes100 wrote: »

One - it's the most expensive car toll in the country to begin with.

Also one of the longest sections of toll road.

nhughes100 wrote: »

Two - They'll get the 4 cent back over the next 13 months.

Maybe not, the toll will change again in January, so it might round down again, depending of the size of the increase.

nhughes100 wrote: »

Three - Their machines don't handle legal tender like 5cent coins so guess who gets to pay the difference.

They do not handle 1 or 2 cent coins either, paying a €2.80 toll with a lot of 5 cents coins is mad.

nhughes100 wrote: »

Four - The alternative road is single lane and very difficult to overtake. If the government were serious about road safety they would toll this road so lorries and trucks wouldn't use it where instead to save the 14euro toll they use the crap road instead of the much safer motorway!

The Government don't care about Road Safety, if they did the ministers would set an good example and not do 100KM in the gov merch in a 30 zone and the like[/QUOTE]

nhughes100 wrote: »

Now that clear it up?

Nope, the origional point is still wrong.

nhughes100

Longest section of road my eye: Explain then if you live in Portlaoise and commute to Dublin(similar distance to Mullingar) you get a 3 lane motorway for a long part for free??? Also the toll costs the same if you get off at Enfield so you pay 2.80 for the 6k stretch from Kilcock to Enfield. The m50 costs 2 euro from Bray to the airport - really fair eh? Even take the shortest distance from the N4 to Blanchardstown and it's still cheaper.

The toll isn't going to change in January as per Eurolink's response so they will get their money back. I wonder are there staff getting a 7.4% pay increase?

Nobody is going to pay their toll entirely with 5 cent coins but wouldn't it be nice to be able to use one - 2.75 - 2 euro, 50, 20 and a 5, please get real here.

I agree the government don't do as much as they could about road safety.

How can my original point be wrong? Please do the maths. Half a percent in VAT, inflation is 4% and falling and they've increased the toll by 7.4%.

Not only that but the toll opened originally it was 2.40, it opened in November 05, it then went immediately up to 2.50 come 1st January 06, no waiting for 12 months cost of living index there. They've been screwing communters since it opened.

Poster King

It is the longest section of PPP road, i.e. the longest section of raod which was partly paid for by Private money. The N7 was paid for by EU and Irish Taxpaper money.

The rounding up or rounding down system makes perfect sense and is fair. Sometime the toll operator wins, sometimes he loses. Swings and roundabouts. nhughes100, your arguments above are flawed I'm afraid.

I agree that the toll is high overall, but the way the increase/decrease is calculated is fair (yes decrease - if CPI drops which may happen next year, the toll will drop)

BluntGuy

GerardKeating wrote: »

They do not handle 1 or 2 cent coins either, paying a €2.80 toll with a lot of 5 cents coins is mad.

Perhaps... but by making the machines unable to accept 5 cent coins, we end up with silly situations like this where tolls rise unacceptably due the the operator's inability to accept the correct charge...

Fair? I don't think so...

All toll roads should be able to increase in 5 cent increments. If that had been the case, this ridiculousness wouldn't have happened. The toll would've already been 2.75, and the 1 cent extra would've been absorbed into the original toll.

Last year these calculations resulted in €2.74 and therefore the toll fare was rounded down to €2.70, during the first 11 months of this year. Now, and due to a Governmental decision, the calculation with the new VAT rate goes up beyond €2.75 and therefore the tariff is rounded up to €2.8 for next month.

I don't think anybody cares that they were getting "4 cent" off. The price, at 2.70 was still ridiculously high and with an extra ten cents shoved on top of that, I doubt anybody's going to be thinking: "ah sure, at least we got a good deal for the last few months".

These increases, like the heavier taxes, should've been imposed when people actually had money. It is ludicrous to raise them now when we're all skint.

But that's a whole other thread...

nhughes100

Poster King wrote: »

The rounding up or rounding down system makes perfect sense and is fair. Sometime the toll operator wins, sometimes he loses. Swings and roundabouts. nhughes100, your arguments above are flawed I'm afraid.

I agree that the toll is high overall, but the way the increase/decrease is calculated is fair (yes decrease - if CPI drops which may happen next year, the toll will drop)

OK so you think that using the cpi for 2005 to increase the toll 6 weeks after it opened in 2006 was fine?

I'll be the first to post a withdrawal of my remarks in the extremely unlikely event that the tolls decrease - Name one toll that's ever decreased in this country.

Carawaystick

nhughes100 wrote: »

Longest section of road my eye: Explain then if you live in Portlaoise and commute to Dublin(similar distance to Mullingar) you get a 3 lane motorway for a long part for free??? Also the toll costs the same if you get off at Enfield so you pay 2.80 for the 6k stretch from Kilcock to Enfield. The m50 costs 2 euro from Bray to the airport - really fair eh? Even take the shortest distance from the N4 to Blanchardstown and it's still cheaper.

The toll isn't going to change in January as per Eurolink's response so they will get their money back. I wonder are there staff getting a 7.4% pay increase?

Nobody is going to pay their toll entirely with 5 cent coins but wouldn't it be nice to be able to use one - 2.75 - 2 euro, 50, 20 and a 5, please get real here.

I agree the government don't do as much as they could about road safety.

How can my original point be wrong? Please do the maths. Half a percent in VAT, inflation is 4% and falling and they've increased the toll by 7.4%.

Not only that but the toll opened originally it was 2.40, it opened in November 05, it then went immediately up to 2.50 come 1st January 06, no waiting for 12 months cost of living index there. They've been screwing communters since it opened.

The tolled sections of the M50 are only 4 or 5 km long and cost 3 euros, and up to 12, which is more than the 2.80 for about 40km of M4.

The N7 is 3 lane but not a motorway from Dublin to Naas

I don't know if a negative CPI will reduce toll prices, I mean the NRA agreed the contracts, is it really likely they stipulated this?

nhughes100

Carawaystick wrote: »

The tolled sections of the M50 are only 4 or 5 km long and cost 3 euros, and up to 12, which is more than the 2.80 for about 40km of M4.

The N7 is 3 lane but not a motorway from Dublin to Naas

I don't know if a negative CPI will reduce toll prices, I mean the NRA agreed the contracts, is it really likely they stipulated this?

I see you've completely missed my point, the shortest section of the tolled m4 is from Kilcock to Enfield which if about 6K similar to the M50 from Lucan to Blanchardstown(the shortest possible route involving the toll on the m50), you can travel large portions of the M50 for free, you can't do any of that on the M4. 3euro without your tag or 2 euro with, cheaper then 2.80 I think you'll agree. No car gets charged 12 euro on the M50 unless you don't cough up in the specified time.

Re the n/M7 it's free. That's my point, I don't care what they classify the road as, 2 lanes and a hard shoulder, that'll do me fine.

PPP is a sham and it should be stopped before it gets into our hospitals and education system.

L1011

nhughes100 wrote: »

I see you've completely missed my point, the shortest section of the tolled m4 is from Kilcock to Enfield which if about 6K similar to the M50 from Lucan to Blanchardstown(the shortest possible route involving the toll on the m50), you can travel large portions of the M50 for free, you can't do any of that on the M4. 3euro without your tag or 2 euro with, cheaper then 2.80 I think you'll agree. No car gets charged 12 euro on the M50 unless you don't cough up in the specified time.

You can travel the non-PPP built sections of the M50 for free (northern cross, southern cross, bits of the western parkway).

You can travel the non-PPP built sections of the M4 for free - Leixlip-Maynooth-Kilcock Bypass and after redesignation, McNeads Bridge to The Downs.

Also, a tag is additional hardware, using a standard once-off payment €3 is quite clearly more than €2.80!

Carawaystick

The M50 tolls:
The advertised price for the toll between the N3 and N4 is EUR3

The minimum price for a car between the N1 and Dublin port is EUR3, sometimes it's EUR6 and sometimes its EUR12

As MYOB pointed out, there are free sections of the M4, and almost all the M6 is free.

I agree that PPPs are a sham

nhughes100

MYOB wrote: »

You can travel the non-PPP built sections of the M50 for free (northern cross, southern cross, bits of the western parkway).

You can travel the non-PPP built sections of the M4 for free - Leixlip-Maynooth-Kilcock Bypass and after redesignation, McNeads Bridge to The Downs.

Also, a tag is additional hardware, using a standard once-off payment €3 is quite clearly more than €2.80!

Yeah but if you use the tag on the M4 guess how much of a discount you get??? A big fat zero.

You can forget about mcNeads bridge to the downs being reclassified until they build about 3 flyovers, there are no merging lane from the many intersections, it's one of the most dangerous stretches of dual carriageway I've seen with cars trying to get across 4 lanes of traffic.

nordydan

nhughes100 wrote: »

Yeah but if you use the tag on the M4 guess how much of a discount you get??? A big fat zero.

You can forget about mcNeads bridge to the downs being reclassified until they build about 3 flyovers, there are no merging lane from the many intersections, it's one of the most dangerous stretches of dual carriageway I've seen with cars trying to get across 4 lanes of traffic.

Only half of the N4 between Mullingar bypass and the M6 is to be recalssified.

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/10978-6.pdf


The other half is to be upgraded (with maybe future reclassification):

http://www.wccprojectoffice.ie/new/scheme.asp?schemeId=14

orbital83

steyr fan wrote: »

Last evening when returning to Dublin from the West, the express lane was closed, as were 3 of the booth lanes. There were at least 7 cars queing for each of the open lanes.

The Public Private Partnership (PPP) contract with toll operators Eurolink stipulates that the barriers must be lifted if more than six cars are queuing in any one lane.

http://breaking.tcm.ie/archives/?c=IRELAND&jp=cwmheygbgbcw&d=2005-12-12

Presume this happened? If not, who do you report it to, NRA?

L1011

nhughes100 wrote: »

Yeah but if you use the tag on the M4 guess how much of a discount you get??? A big fat zero.

You can forget about mcNeads bridge to the downs being reclassified until they build about 3 flyovers, there are no merging lane from the many intersections, it's one of the most dangerous stretches of dual carriageway I've seen with cars trying to get across 4 lanes of traffic.

The road through The Downs is not being reclassified, neither is the bypass (unconnected to other sections and has petrol stations...). Theres also sections of the 'old road' entirely subsumed - no alternate route. But there is still a couple of KM between the M6 merge and The Downs being reclassified.

nhughes100

I'd love to say that the extra couple of km that very few slow down for anyway makes me any happier, by the way I wrote to every TD in Westmeath/Longford as well as Senator Donie Cassiday, none of whom to date have even acknowledged my query let alone answer it. I'm sure they'll all be at the unveiling of Joe Dolan's statue tomorrow, maybe I should ask them then.

Ta me anseo

Poster King wrote: »

I agree that the toll is high overall, but the way the increase/decrease is calculated is fair (yes decrease - if CPI drops which may happen next year, the toll will drop)

Completely wrong. The only way the toll will come down is if the CPI is NEGATIVE. If the CPI drops, the toll will GO UP by a smaller amount.

veryangryman

Cant we just avoid the toll and move on with our lives? Its only Enfield and Kinnegad your going by FFS

Its a shame that the road is tolled, but id sooner have a toll there than at Moate bypass. The one at new M6 will be a bastard though.

Tarabuses

MYOB wrote: »

You can travel the non-PPP built sections of the M50 for free (northern cross, southern cross, bits of the western parkway).

You can travel the non-PPP built sections of the M4 for free - Leixlip-Maynooth-Kilcock Bypass and after redesignation, McNeads Bridge to The Downs.

Also, a tag is additional hardware, using a standard once-off payment €3 is quite clearly more than €2.80!

The standard once-off payment is only €3 because the government screwed us all with a 50% increase when the toll booths were removed.

nhughes100

And for all of you who thought Eurolink were great passing on the savings of 4 cent per journey up to 1st December this year, guess what? Signs up this morning as of January 1st tolls go up to €2.90. 15% increase in a month, now come on and defend that!

Lance Vance

nhughes100 wrote: »

Response from the M4 Eurolink people.

In order to understand the toll increase, it is necessary to draw attention to the Toll Rates calculation method established by our PPP contract.

Every year, the rates are updated following the Consumer Price Index (CPI) published by the Central Statistics Office (CSO). The resulting figure, once the CPI is applied, is then rounded up or down to the closest ten cent fraction.

Last year these calculations resulted in €2.74 and therefore the toll fare was rounded down to €2.70, during the first 11 months of this year. Now, and due to a Governmental decision, the calculation with the new VAT rate goes up beyond €2.75 and therefore the tariff is rounded up to €2.8 for next month.



Regarding the new 2009 toll rates, we can confirm that they include the inflation index for the year 2008.


We hope this clarifies your query and thank you for your valued custom."

The toll rates have not yet been reduced for 2010 even though the VAT rate has been reduced and the consumer price index is negative.

JHMEG

Lance Vance wrote: »

The toll rates have not yet been reduced for 2010 even though the VAT rate has been reduced and the consumer price index is negative.

The Toll Rates calculation method referred may prevent rates being reduced. In addition I read that the govt must pay compensation to the toll operator if the traffic volumes are not high enough.

One cannot help but get the impression that the fellows negotiating these contracts on behalf of private companies were quite clever and the government ministers/senior civil servants on the other side of the table were not the sharpest tools in the box.

AlekSmart

One cannot help but get the impression that the fellows negotiating these contracts on behalf of private companies were quite clever and the government ministers/senior civil servants on the other side of the table were not the sharpest tools in the box.

Au contraire JHMEG,the well concealed details of these Toll Facility "contract negotiations" simple don`t allow for any real public scrutiny (Our function being solely to pay the damn things).

Therefore in the deliberately engineered absence of factual data,we cannot therefore be taken to task when we (The Public) draw our own conclusions from the actions being taken by The Minister for Transport and his officials to keep the actual Toll Facility financial arrangements secret at all costs.

It took the efforts of Sen.Shane Ross to tease out the shoddy and financially dubious (to those bearing the actual cost) arrangements surrounding the Westlink Buy-Out and particularly the incredible ORIGINAL agreement entered into with the Roche family owned National Toll Roads.

Since Sen Ross`s success in pulling back the heavy drapes,(an act which still REALLY enrages many high ranking Civil Servants of the era) the current crop of dubious shady Government Ministers are far more circumspect in their arrangements.

However it is still quite obvious that Minister Dempsey`s staunch defence of the secrecy clause (commercially sensitive information my backside) which is now standard in Toll Facility negotiations may well verge on challengable in the courts.

It also should be borne in mind that Minister Dempsey is simultaneously active in restricting and reducing what could be viable Public Transport options operating along the non-toll routes...One 53 seater coach paying a single toll...or a potential 53 cars paying 53 tolls....even Homer Simpson could do that math and get it right !!!

It`s basically asset stripping and trousering the profits...works every time !

Lance Vance

JHMEG wrote: »

The Toll Rates calculation method referred may prevent rates being reduced.

In the event of deflation the toll can not be raised but the toll operator has the option to reduce the toll according to the M4 bye-laws. The toll company has chosen not to reduce most of its tolls.


Quote from M4 bye-laws 'In the event of the current Consumer Price Index in use remaining static or showing a decrease on the previous year’s figures in any year the Appropriate Tolls shall be fixed by the Toll Company but shall not exceed the Maximum Tolls fixed in the previous year'


http://www.nra.ie/PublicPrivatePartnership/TollingDocumentation/file,2845,en.pdf
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

Carawaystick

but the m4 toll people say that every year the cpi is applied. unless it goes down....

Does anyone know what the base price ex vat is?

Tarabuses

Lance Vance wrote: »

In the event of deflation the toll can not be raised but the toll operator has the option to reduce the toll according to the M4 bye-laws. The toll company has chosen not to reduce most of its tolls.


Quote from M4 bye-laws 'In the event of the current Consumer Price Index in use remaining static or showing a decrease on the previous year’s figures in any year the Appropriate Tolls shall be fixed by the Toll Company but shall not exceed the Maximum Tolls fixed in the previous year'


http://www.nra.ie/PublicPrivatePartnership/TollingDocumentation/file,2845,en.pdf
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

If the CPI "increases" next year to its original level are they allowed to increase the toll even if, over the two year period, the CPI is unchanged?

Carawaystick

My understanding is that they are not. it's the index with respect to some baseline year.
If the vat reduction brings them below the threshold they definitely need to reduce the price.

Tarabuses

Carawaystick wrote: »

My understanding is that they are not. it's the index with respect to some baseline year.
If the vat reduction brings them below the threshold they definitely need to reduce the price.

They were quick enough to increase the toll following the VAT hike so why the delay in reducing it (see very start of this thread)?