European Croos-country team announced

dpo

More crazy decisions from the selection committee. The sooner they resign en masse, the better. Every year they make 2 or 3 illogical selections which backfire, yet they never learn from their mistakes.

Teams for European Cross Country Championships in Brussels on 14 December

Men Seniors: Alan Mc Cormack (DSD), Mark Christie (Mullingar Harriers), Gary Murray (St. Malachy's), Mark Carroll (Leevale A.C) , Martin Fagan (Mullingar Harriers), Andrew Ledwith (Fr Murphy's A.C).

Reserve - Joe Mc Allister (St Malachy's).

Senior Women: Mary Cullen (North Sligo A.C), Fionnuala Britton (Sli Cualann), Deirdre Byrne (Sli Cualann), Aoife Byrne (DSD), Hazel Murphy (DSD), Ava Hutchinson (DSD).

Reserve - Kerry Harty (Newcastle A.C).
Men U-23: Michael Clohesy (Raheny Shamrock), Paul Pollock (Abbey A.C), John Coghlan (MSB), David Mc Carthy (West Waterford A.C), Richie Yeates (Raheny Shamrock)?
Ciaran O' Lionaird (Leevale A.C).

Reserve - Jason Fahy (Olympic A.C)?

Women U-23: Linda Byrne (DSD), Ciara Durkan (Skerries A.C), Eimear O'Brien (Sligo A.C), Holly Knight (Finn Valley), Aisling Baker (DSD).

dpo

European Cross-country team announced, obviously

helpisontheway

What are yor questions in relation to the people highlighted? Are you asking who are they or why they were selected?
I dont follow cross country closely,just wondering!

dpo

Yeah, Jason Fahy was denied a spot on the team by a questionable decision last year and it has happened again this year.
The selection committee like to throw in a few "wild card" selections every year which can't be justified on form and usually backfire.
Yet every year these selections don't work out, and they continue their policy and ignore the form of certain home-based athletes.

myflipflops

Jason Fahy certainly has a right to feel aggrieved and Joe Mac may feel a bit unlucky bit but other than that i don't see any issues with the teams. Fagan and Ledwith deserve their pre-selection, as do Mary Cullen and David Mccarthy. Other than that, the teams seem to be picked on the intercounties.

Calling for a mass resignation of the selection committee based on this seems a bit over the top.

dpo

Yeah Fagan and that were automatic selections. O'Lionard has been running well in The NCAAs so deserved his spot. I would like to hear why they didn't select Jason Fahy, particularly after last year.

myflipflops

runrunrun wrote: »

can someone tell me how mark carroll got picked????

He ran 48 something for 10 miles in the Great South Run and seemingly proved his fitness and form by winning a 5k road race over in the States in 14.39 (results on the AAI site). My guess is that they reckoned Carroll still has the ability to get himself up there and finish in the top 20 or 25 while Joe Mac may not. They may well believe that the men have a shot at a team medal on the right day and picking Carroll gives them a better shot.

I'm neither defending nor criticising the selection here, just putting down what i reckon was the thinking on it. Personally, i think Joe Mac is unlucky and Carroll should have been asked to run the Intercounties to prove form.

helpisontheway

I would imagine that AAI had decided before the Inter counties that they would only select the top 3 from the u23s in that competition regardless of who they were and the rest from abroad! Its the only logical explanation i could give.

ss43

dpo wrote: »

More crazy decisions from the selection committee. The sooner they resign en masse, the better. Every year they make 2 or 3 illogical selections which backfire, yet they never learn from their mistakes.

Teams for European Cross Country Championships in Brussels on 14 December

Men Seniors: Alan Mc Cormack (DSD), Mark Christie (Mullingar Harriers), Gary Murray (St. Malachy's), Mark Carroll (Leevale A.C) , Martin Fagan (Mullingar Harriers), Andrew Ledwith (Fr Murphy's A.C).

Reserve - Joe Mc Allister (St Malachy's).

Senior Women: Mary Cullen (North Sligo A.C), Fionnuala Britton (Sli Cualann), Deirdre Byrne (Sli Cualann), Aoife Byrne (DSD), Hazel Murphy (DSD), Ava Hutchinson (DSD).

Reserve - Kerry Harty (Newcastle A.C).
Men U-23: Michael Clohesy (Raheny Shamrock), Paul Pollock (Abbey A.C), John Coghlan (MSB), David Mc Carthy (West Waterford A.C), Richie Yeates (Raheny Shamrock)?
Ciaran O' Lionaird (Leevale A.C).

Reserve - Jason Fahy (Olympic A.C)?

Women U-23: Linda Byrne (DSD), Ciara Durkan (Skerries A.C), Eimear O'Brien (Sligo A.C), Holly Knight (Finn Valley), Aisling Baker (DSD).

Senior Men
When did Mark Carroll last run a cross country race? Why didn't he run the trial? It's obvious why the lads in college in america didn't run but why couldn't Carroll come over if he was interested?

Senior Women
Seems ok to me.

u23 Men
Richie Yeates was 2 minutes behind Ledwith, 1:30 behind McCarthy, 49 seconds behind Ó Lionáird yesterday. Fahy was 1:20 off McCormack and winning the senior trial, 51 seconds off winning the u23 trial. Why not change the criteria to first three in the NCAAs and the rest will be selected?

u23 Women
What has Aisling Baker done recently and why didn't she run the trial? Has anyone got any idea who's being considered for the last position.

Junior Men
If they were thinking of picking Shane Quinn why didn't they tell him to run the junior race?

Junior Women
Why didn't Ciara Mageean and Tara Jameson run?

dpo

Calling for a mass resignation of the selection committee based on this seems a bit over the top.

I wasn't being totally serious but the selection process has to be looked at, its a bit 'cloak and dagger' at the moment. If it was the first time it had happened, I would agree with you, but they seem to get it wrong every year. This was last year's reaction:
http://www.createphpbb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?mforum=leevale&t=1123&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&mforum=leevale

Shane Quinn has an obvious advantage when teams are being selected.
He's probably good enough, and you have to remember they selected Mark Christie when he won the U18 race w/o him running the Junior trial and that was the right call.

On a more positive note the mens senior team looks very strong on paper, especially if Alan Mc Cormack is the real deal. It's a pity Cragg isn't running as well.
None of the other teams look great bar Junior Girls.

ss43

dpo wrote: »

Calling for a mass resignation of the selection committee based on this seems a bit over the top.

I wasn't being totally serious but the selection process has to be looked at, its a bit 'cloak and dagger' at the moment. If it was the first time it had happened, I would agree with you, but they seem to get it wrong every year. This was last year's reaction:
http://www.createphpbb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?mforum=leevale&t=1123&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&mforum=leevale

Shane Quinn has an obvious advantage when teams are being selected.
He's probably good enough, and you have to remember they selected Mark Christie when he won the U18 race w/o him running the Junior trial and that was the right call.

On a more positive note the mens senior team looks very strong on paper, especially if Alan Mc Cormack is the real deal. It's a pity Cragg isn't running as well.
None of the other teams look great bar Junior Girls.

I remember they selected Christie and thought it was a good idea. I don't know as much about Quinn but from what I do he probably is good enough but would it not be better to get him to run the junior race and get rid of any doubt there might be? He'd also get a more competitive race which should stand to him come the Europeans.

The 5k Mark Carroll won would appear to be a fun run. It's called 'Mews Tavern "Gear and Beer" 5k Road Race'. He only ran 14:39 (apparently it's quite hilly), the next guy was 30 seconds back, only 3 lads broke 16 mins. I might give that race a lash next year. It'd be a fair bit easier than getting top 3 in the Inter-Counties.

ecoli

while i acknowledge Yeates as a very good runner i dont thing his form is enough to get him on the theam and personally think the fact he stateside was an influential factor and believe that on form there are others who should not have been overlooked Rory Cheeser for one despite a bad performance at nationals.
Agree that the selection committee needs to be scrutinized a bit more critically

Rineanna

On a more positive note the mens senior team looks very strong on paper, especially if Alan Mc Cormack is the real deal. It's a pity Cragg isn't running as well.
None of the other teams look great bar Junior Girls.

If Britton recovers in time, I think the Senior Women's team isn't the worst. Mary Cullen could potentially spring a suprize. From her recent interview, she seems like she's raring to go and eat up the field in Brussels after a frustrating 2008. Could be one to watch. I hope McGettigan considers running cross next year for Dublin. Her, Cullen, britton, the two Byrnes and Murphy could nab a team medal.

Why didn't Ciara Mageean run?

The only reason that comes to mind is that her track season ran way into September (October even?) for the Commonwealth Games, so it might have something to do with that. Pity though, herself the O' Ffrench- Carroll's and Treacy would be a good quartet to have on the same team.

Edit: Oh hold on, my mistake; they are on the team. I thought they weren't taking part in the cross-country.

ecoli

the junior womens team in my opinion look the strongest and the most likely to do something of merit. good to see few coming through the ranks who look like they can shine on the world stage best of luck to them

dpo

From todays examiner:
Ciarán O Lionaird (Leevale) was selected for the U23 team but he withdrew yesterday after discussing the situation with his coach at Michigan, Ron Warhurst. He had finished 68th in the NCAA’s the previous day but later told Mark Carroll he had a stomach upset during the race and, after a long season, wished to get ready for the indoor season. David McCarthy from Waterford, a student at Providence College, finished a superb 19th in Indiana to justify his pre-selection for the U23 team where he will be joined by fellow Providence athlete, Richard Yeates (Raheny Shamrock), 168th in Indiana and the top three U23s from Sunday’s race Tramore.

HaileGeb

I think the senior team is called correctly the top 3 from the trial, Fagan, Ledwith and Carroll. Carroll can deliver a big run and secure a good team finish. It could back fire but worth a gamble.

No issue either with the senior women.

The junior selections of Mageen and Jameson are good choices. Don't forget that Ciara was a world junior 1500m finalist last summer! After the commonwealth games it would be foolish to ask her to prove form in a trial and then expect a big run in the europeans. She is proven quality.
I'm not sure why Tara wasn't there but she is a good athlete and is an addition to the team.

The junior men have the first 5 from the trial. The selection of Shane Quinn is one that shows some vision for the future. The poster who doesn't know much about him has obviously not attended any All Ireland Track, Schools or Cross Country championships because Quinn's performances are breathtaking. His pb of 3-55 is outstanding. This selection should be commended.

By the way, the door has opened for Jason Fahy following the withdrawal of Collie.

ss43

HaileGeb wrote: »

I think the senior team is called correctly the top 3 from the trial, Fagan, Ledwith and Carroll. Carroll can deliver a big run and secure a good team finish. It could back fire but worth a gamble.

No issue either with the senior women.

The junior selections of Mageen and Jameson are good choices. Don't forget that Ciara was a world junior 1500m finalist last summer! After the commonwealth games it would be foolish to ask her to prove form in a trial and then expect a big run in the europeans. She is proven quality.
I'm not sure why Tara wasn't there but she is a good athlete and is an addition to the team.

The junior men have the first 5 from the trial. The selection of Shane Quinn is one that shows some vision for the future. The poster who doesn't know much about him has obviously not attended any All Ireland Track, Schools or Cross Country championships because Quinn's performances are breathtaking. His pb of 3-55 is outstanding. This selection should be commended.

By the way, the door has opened for Jason Fahy following the withdrawal of Collie.

Carroll could very well give a big performance. Why wasn't he told to run the trial and then it wouldn't be half as much of a gamble as we'd know what level he was at.

Jameson's not necessarily an addition to the team. The most likely reason for missing the trial is injury or illness in which case she mightn't be in shape for the Europeans (like Brendan O'Neill last year). She could fly it either. WIthout knowing I suppose I'll have to give the selectors the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

I don't know whether Shane Quinn is as good as the others at cross country because I haven't seen him race them. I have seen him on the track and he's great but this is cross country and four times as long as his track distance. If you're going to go by 1500m times why not pick Jordan Neil or Kevin Cooper who ran faster this year? 1500 times are irrelevant - the top three on Sunday were ranked 8th, 7th and 31st this year at 1500m.

As I've said before, I think Shane Quinn is probably good enough but he should have been told (or at least asked) to run the trial so it'd be much clearer that he was good enough. A competitive race 3 weeks before the Europeans would probably stand to him. What outstanding results as he had at cross country over the last year?

myflipflops

I think the arguement on the Junior WOmen's team is completely redundant. The 2 athletes who finished in 5th and 6th in the trials but weren't selected were nearly a minute (50 and 54 seconds respectively) behind the leader. This is an enormous gap over 4k of cross country. They would be hugely out of their depth at European level where the pace will be much quicker and therefore i don't see the point in sending them. The decision to send the 2 athletes with the track pedigree in the hope that they can compete properly is correct - for me it's either that or just send the other 4.

HaileGeb

It is unlikely that Carroll would have returned for the trial and seperately for the Europeans. He is being picked on current form and has a background in Cross Country. (2nd in NCAA and 19th in World Junior Cross Country). He is still worth a gamble in the view of the selectors and hopefully he will justify their faith.

Shane Quinn missed the schools all ireland cross country and subsequent international due to injury. His summer running on the track was excellent and in direct answer to your question, his performance in Tramore was simply outstanding.

I don't advocate picking cross country teams off 1500m ranking lists, I feel you deliberately misinterpreted that! I merely highlighted it as an indication of his immense ability. In any case, Kevin Cooper ran the trial and finished outside the top 10 so I don't see how he could stake a claim.

The guy who would have got Quinns spot is his clubmate, Patrick Hogan. There is little doubt that Quinn has far more potential and that is the rationale behind the decision. No disrespect to Hogan intended, he is a good athlete.

The decision to select Quinn is an investment in the future. It will be invaluable for the Euro cross country in Dublin 2009.

In response to your question, Quinn's run in Tramore was outstanding. He missed the schools all Ireland cross country and the subsequent international due to injury. His summer running showed he was back in business. He is proven quality on the country with 2 schools international wins.

It was a decision that demonstrated vision from the selectors and they should be applauded for it.

ss43

HaileGeb wrote: »

It is unlikely that Carroll would have returned for the trial and seperately for the Europeans. He is being picked on current form and has a background in Cross Country. (2nd in NCAA and 19th in World Junior Cross Country). He is still worth a gamble in the view of the selectors and hopefully he will justify their faith.

Shane Quinn missed the schools all ireland cross country and subsequent international due to injury. His summer running on the track was excellent and in direct answer to your question, his performance in Tramore was simply outstanding.

I don't advocate picking cross country teams off 1500m ranking lists, I feel you deliberately misinterpreted that! I merely highlighted it as an indication of his immense ability. In any case, Kevin Cooper ran the trial and finished outside the top 10 so I don't see how he could stake a claim.

The guy who would have got Quinns spot is his clubmate, Patrick Hogan. There is little doubt that Quinn has far more potential and that is the rationale behind the decision. No disrespect to Hogan intended, he is a good athlete.

The decision to select Quinn is an investment in the future. It will be invaluable for the Euro cross country in Dublin 2009.

In response to your question, Quinn's run in Tramore was outstanding. He missed the schools all Ireland cross country and the subsequent international due to injury. His summer running showed he was back in business. He is proven quality on the country with 2 schools international wins.

It was a decision that demonstrated vision from the selectors and they should be applauded for it.

Mark Carroll is 17 years out of junior. Let's pick John Treacy as well. Should Kenya pick Tergat for their teams?

Last year he won u16 and lost u17 to Liam Tremble. Tremble came 8th on Sunday. The lads behind him Quinn in the u18 race are a long way off the standard of the junior team so beating them by a long way isn't outstanding in terms of an athlete worthy of being on the Irish junior team. Paddy Hogan would probably hammer them too.

If the selectors had vision they would have seen before the race that he was a contender and got him to run the trial to 1) prepare him better for the Europeans and 2) get rid of any doubt as to whether he's good enough to run or not.

cfitz

In the future I'd like to see a more rigid selection process. I don't think this idea of picking the team with the most potential to deliver works very well in practice - it leads to the same arguments every year and athletes probably becoming dissillusioned.

Here is my idea, and I know it's not perfect:

Pick the number to be automatically selected from the Intercounties (say stick with 3).
Any other selections must be announced before the trial - if less than 3 are pre-selected then announce how many extra will be picked from the Intercounties (maybe do all this the weekend before the Intercounties).

I think this would work well because each passing year would increase the stature of the Intercounties and only those who were pre-selected could miss it. Every now and again there'd be some guy running NCAAs that might miss out on pre-selection, or some great guy in Ireland who would come 4th and wouldn't make the team, but on balance we would have a strong team of happy in-form athletes.

Having a good system will produce medals, not throwing would-be heroes on to teams any time there's a glimpse of silverware. The last time the junior men took silver all scoring members of the team competed in the Intercounties (1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th).

HaileGeb

ss43 wrote: »

Mark Carroll is 17 years out of junior. Let's pick John Treacy as well. Should Kenya pick Tergat for their teams?

Last year he won u16 and lost u17 to Liam Tremble. Tremble came 8th on Sunday. The lads behind him Quinn in the u18 race are a long way off the standard of the junior team so beating them by a long way isn't outstanding in terms of an athlete worthy of being on the Irish junior team. Paddy Hogan would probably hammer them too.

If the selectors had vision they would have seen before the race that he was a contender and got him to run the trial to 1) prepare him better for the Europeans and 2) get rid of any doubt as to whether he's good enough to run or not.

Discussing the result of a race a full year ago and basing a decision off that is nonsense. You are just nit picking at this stage ss43! Quinn has delivered an endless list of outstanding performances over the past 2 years. He is well worthy of selection at present, not to mention the future. Hogan is a good runner but not his class. They picked christie out of the U18 and it worked well. Quinn is at the very least his equal. Many would claim he is better at his current age.

Discretion is required, we are not the US with an endless supply of talant that can go to a win or bust trial scenaroio.

Again you chose to take my reference to Carroll's cross country background out of context. Merely used to highlight that he is capable of it since he has no cross country form this winter.

Announcing pre selections before the trials offers no room for dealing with the unexpected and is not prudent policy. AAI announced that the first 3 over the line were automatically selected. This also allows them to consider people who finish 4th or 5th unexpectedly. It does not guess the result of the inter counties and facilitates common sense.

cfitz

HaileGeb wrote: »

Announcing pre selections before the trials offers no room for dealing with the unexpected and is not prudent policy.

Indeed it doesn't leave room for the unexpected (I pointed that out in my post), but I think on balance it will produce better teams. How can you state outright that it is not prudent policy?

HaileGeb

In my opinion, any policy that prevents the best team available from being selected is not prudent. We are a minority sport in Ireland and to be competitive we need the best available athletes.

ss43

HaileGeb wrote: »

Discussing the result of a race a full year ago and basing a decision off that is nonsense. You are just nit picking at this stage ss43! Quinn has delivered an endless list of outstanding performances over the past 2 years. He is well worthy of selection at present, not to mention the future. Hogan is a good runner but not his class. They picked christie out of the U18 and it worked well. Quinn is at the very least his equal. Many would claim he is better at his current age.

Discretion is required, we are not the US with an endless supply of talant that can go to a win or bust trial scenaroio.

Again you chose to take my reference to Carroll's cross country background out of context. Merely used to highlight that he is capable of it since he has no cross country form this winter.

Announcing pre selections before the trials offers no room for dealing with the unexpected and is not prudent policy. AAI announced that the first 3 over the line were automatically selected. This also allows them to consider people who finish 4th or 5th unexpectedly. It does not guess the result of the inter counties and facilitates common sense.

Shane Quinn has not yet shown that he is good enough for an Irish junior cross country team. In the circumstances picking him was probably the right idea. However, getting him to run the trial would have been far better as then it would have been pretty clear whether or not he was good enough. That he's a beast on the track or that he won schools internationals doesn't show that he's as good at cross country as lads three years older. He should have had to prove himself. What good reason was there for him not to run the trial? Surely a lad of his talent could sacrifice one all-Ireland title for a place on an Irish team. Someone with vision, I'm sure, could persuade him of the benefits.

As you said, Carroll has no cross country form this winter. He also has no cross country form for a long time. On the road he was 43 seconds behind Murray over 10 miles and ran a 14:39 5k. How does that constitute form to warrant a place on the team. McAllister was 14 seconds off Murray on Sunday. The race was 2/3 the length timewise of the 10 mile Murray had against Carroll so at that rate McAllister would have been 21 seconds behind Murray.

That would suggest that Carroll's best race was worse than McAllister's run n the trial. Other than that Carroll has run 14:39 very recently in a fun run. That's not worth a damn at this level. Has Carroll ran other races recently that I've missed out on?

cfitz

HaileGeb wrote: »

In my opinion, any policy that prevents the best team available from being selected is not prudent. We are a minority sport in Ireland and to be competitive we need the best available athletes.

But look at the results from the European Championships last year - when we use the current selection process we do not pick the best available athletes. It's blatantly obvious.

ecoli

ss43 wrote: »

Last year he won u16 and lost u17 to Liam Tremble. Tremble came 8th on Sunday.

Tremble is a very inconsitent runner in terms of form and i dont think it is fair to judge his victory last year as a guide to Quinns position in that race how ever i do agree that unfair that he was selected on that performance he should have been asked to run the junior race to give an accurate account of his form

hope he has a very good run though and justifies his selection and takes somethin from the experience for next year raacing on home turf

Stupid_Private

ss43 wrote: »

As you said, Carroll has no cross country form this winter. He also has no cross country form for a long time. On the road he was 43 seconds behind Murray over 10 miles and ran a 14:39 5k. How does that constitute form to warrant a place on the team. McAllister was 14 seconds off Murray on Sunday. The race was 2/3 the length timewise of the 10 mile Murray had against Carroll so at that rate McAllister would have been 21 seconds behind Murray.

That would suggest that Carroll's best race was worse than McAllister's run n the trial. Other than that Carroll has run 14:39 very recently in a fun run. That's not worth a damn at this level. Has Carroll ran other races recently that I've missed out on?

This is getting old but I don't think you can compare the times and positionings of two athletes against another athlete, in two races of different lengths, on different courses, different dates and decide that IF one athlete had run a longer race they would only have finished 21 seconds behind, rather than 43 seconds, based on a completely different race!

Americans give all races stupid names, it doesn't make them any lesser of an event. It's still a 5k on a course we know nothing about. We can't decide it's a useless result because of the company that sponsored the event. Plenty of top athletes in the States will be competing in "Turkey Trots" this week, that doesn't mean that they're crap races.

HaileGeb

It is only a question of Quinn being better than Paddy Hogan. If he was 19 now and in the US nobody would complain about his selection. The selectors cannot dictate who should run what race. The first 3 were guaranteed selection, the first 5 were selected so I think that is fair enough. Quinn was deemed good enough for the final place, as christie was previously.

Re Mark Carroll, I dont think that times from different road races run in different conditions can be compared to that extent. Carroll could be expected to score on the team, McAllister would not. It's a gamble. Thats what the selection process is there for.

Demanding that all contenders run the trial will not always work. Thats what the selectors are there for.

HaileGeb

cfitz wrote: »

But look at the results from the European Championships last year - when we use the current selection process we do not pick the best available athletes. It's blatantly obvious.

There will always be times when it backfires. Selectors are human and will make mistakes.

ss43

Stupid_Private wrote: »

This is getting old but I don't think you can compare the times and positionings of two athletes against another athlete, in two races of different lengths, on different courses, different dates and decide that IF one athlete had run a longer race they would only have finished 21 seconds behind, rather than 43 seconds, based on a completely different race!

Americans give all races stupid names, it doesn't make them any lesser of an event. It's still a 5k on a course we know nothing about. We can't decide it's a useless result because of the company that sponsored the event. Plenty of top athletes in the States will be competing in "Turkey Trots" this week, that doesn't mean that they're crap races.

Only 3 people under 16 mins make it seem like a fun run. I do know something (not much) about the course. It's hilly so that would go someway to explain the slow time.

The criteria Mark Carroll was picked under was recent form. He has not shown recent form worthy of selection. Neither of his races that I'm aware of (if he's ran others recently, let me know) were up to the standard of McAllister's (in my opinion).

ss43

HaileGeb wrote: »

It is only a question of Quinn being better than Paddy Hogan. If he was 19 now and in the US nobody would complain about his selection. The selectors cannot dictate who should run what race. The first 3 were guaranteed selection, the first 5 were selected so I think that is fair enough. Quinn was deemed good enough for the final place, as christie was previously.

Re Mark Carroll, I dont think that times from different road races run in different conditions can be compared to that extent. Carroll could be expected to score on the team, McAllister would not. It's a gamble. Thats what the selection process is there for.

Demanding that all contenders run the trial will not always work. Thats what the selectors are there for.

I know you can't demand all contenders to run the trial. Surely it's not too much to ask someone to run when he's going to be at the venue and willing to run a race that day anyway.

Lads in NCAAs can't really be expected to miss them cos they're having their education and training funded by their colleges. Fagan's preparing for other races and without being in top shape is well good enough for the teams so it's fair enough to pick him as well. People like Mark Carroll who are not a cut above the rest should have to prove themselves in some way. Carroll didn't prove himself.

It seems to me that if you're only good enough for fourth in the trial you'd be better off not running it and run some road race instead. Basing yourself in America would probably be a smart option also.

Clum

ss43 wrote: »

Fagan's preparing for other races and without being in top shape is well good enough for the teams so it's fair enough to pick him as well.

As far as I know Fagan is preparing for the Euro Cross. Last year it came in the middle of his preparations for a marathon but this year his aim is a European title.

Not so sure how likely that is but he's running well so on a good day who knows...

Koroibos

I can't believe people are debating the inclusion of Mark Carroll. There are only two other athletes of his Caliber at the moment, Cragg and Fagan. No one would debate his inclusion at his best, it just comes down to current form. Only a few months ago he ran 13.28 for 5000m.

13.28, over 30 seconds faster than 3rd on the rankings, Ledwith. 13.28, a time that would put him 11th on the all time rankings, if you took out his other times, he would be TOP TEN ALL TIME. 13.28, over 50 seconds faster than the next person in line for the team place. 13.28, the highest ranked Irish male distance performance in Europe other than Cragg.

Running form goes across all surfaces. If people think track or road times shouldn't count, don't pick from NCAA races, there are often on very firm ground.

This is not a kid after his first international vest. He has won European medals, made major finals, was a faction off going sub 7.30 over 3000m, a highest Irish ever in the 4k in the world cross. What does he have to gain apart from the opportunity to help Ireland to a higher position and to give younger athletes the opportunity to be on the same team as him. To see how a world class athlete prepares for a race. For him to give advice and encouragement to young up and coming athletes, his successors, he would be around much longer, hopefully until Dublin 2009.

The only criteria should be, "Mark, do you think you can do yourself justice?" and "Do you want to run?” If it is yes to both, he should be on the team.

thirtyfoot

runrunrun wrote: »

carroll was a great athlete...but now he is ruining his legacy by talking his way onto irish teams he has no business being on. .

Talking his way onto Irish team:rolleyes: To me Carroll was/is a great athlete and deserves a little bit more respect than that especially from anonymous internet goons like us on here but there will be always be the negative noras. Hope he runs well and pushes on to Dublin '09. A team of Cragg, Fagan, Carroll et all will be great to see in Santry next year (and Sonia too, assuming she can talk herself on too, must be a Cork thing;)

cfitz

Tingle wrote: »

Talking his way onto Irish team:rolleyes: To me Carroll was/is a great athlete and deserves a little bit more respect than that especially from anonymous internet goons like us on here but there will be always be the negative noras. Hope he runs well and pushes on to Dublin '09. A team of Cragg, Fagan, Carroll et all will be great to see in Santry next year (and Sonia too, assuming she can talk herself on too, must be a Cork thing;)

All they have to do is turn up for the trial and everyone will be happy. If they ain't good enough to be at the top in the Intercounties 2 weeks before then it doesn't matter whether they're called Sonia or Mark or if they have Olympic medals - they're not good enough for the team.

myflipflops

This is just very harsh on Carroll. i think Joe Mac is unlucky too (as i posted earlier) and would have liked to see Carroll run the trial but i certainly see the merits of picking him for Euro X. To accuse him of talking his way onto the team and intimate that it's nothing more than a free holiday is just plain stupid.

Comments like "Flanders won't be any easier Mark" are laughable. I don't think a guy who ahs run 7.30, 13.03, and a 2.10debut marathon will be intimidated by a hilly cross country course.

Fair play to you coming onto an internet forum and having an anonymous go at our fastest ever middle distance athlete.

runrunrun wrote: »

is it just me or hasnt joe mac scored the last 2 times hes gone to euro cross for the irish team??

carroll was a great athlete...but now he is ruining his legacy by talking his way onto irish teams he has no business being on. if he was serious about cross country he'd come home for the trial just as cragg did for world cross last year to run interclubs. the fact that carroll didn't come home hints more to the fact that he didnt think he could make the team on merit and needed to persuade selectors that he still has something to offer.

joe mac may not get you a top ten finish..but he does exactly what he says on the tin...he'll score for the team and be in the top four of irish runners..he hadnt raced in 3 weeks before intercounties and given 3 more weeks of taper would've been ready for an even better run...people forget hes run 28:45 and 14:00.he ran an extremly smart race over a hard course on sunday..id like to have seen carroll, a guy who has no cross country races in his legs this season and hasnt been seen on a cross country course for years, do well on that tramore course. Flanders' fields won't be any easier Mark.
Nice free trip home for him in time for xmas though. Joe Mac should be extremely agrieved at how he was treated.

thirtyfoot

cfitz wrote: »

All they have to do is turn up for the trial and everyone will be happy. If they ain't good enough to be at the top in the Intercounties 2 weeks before then it doesn't matter whether they're called Sonia or Mark or if they have Olympic medals - they're not good enough for the team.

So its the selection procedure thats flawed and not Mark Carroll accepting an offer to run for his country, should he have turned it down. It has been mentioned already on the thread, its not like we have massive depth in this sport. Selectors have a tough job to do and maybe more transparency and accountability would be good but it usually balances itself out. I have personal experinces of being overlooked by selectors down the years and family and friends would be out with the conspiracy theories which most of the time is pure crap and I just got on with it and trained and never took it personally. If an athlete is overlooked they should just get on with it and train harder and not be whinging and moaning (I presume those that are overlooked don't whinge and moan - just us on here).

This is not Mark Carroll's fault. If he bombs in Belgium, it won't be his fault but maybe the selectors. runrunrun saying he has "talked" himself onto the team is not on and classic internet chatboard you might see on letsrun or the old Leevale and probably not somewhere we would want to head I'd say, maybe having a go at the selection policy is more fair game.

cfitz

Tingle wrote: »

So its the selection procedure thats flawed and not Mark Carroll accepting an offer to run for his country, should he have turned it down. It has been mentioned already on the thread, its not like we have massive depth in this sport. Selectors have a tough job to do and maybe more transparency and accountability would be good but it usually balances itself out. I have personal experinces of being overlooked by selectors down the years and family and friends would be out with the conspiracy theories which most of the time is pure crap and I just got on with it and trained and never took it personally. If an athlete is overlooked they should just get on with it and train harder and not be whinging and moaning (I presume those that are overlooked don't whinge and moan - just us on here).

This is not Mark Carroll's fault. If he bombs in Belgium, it won't be his fault but maybe the selectors. runrunrun saying he has "talked" himself onto the team is not on and classic internet chatboard you might see on letsrun or the old Leevale and probably not somewhere we would want to head I'd say, maybe having a go at the selection policy is more fair game.

Indeed, if Mark was asked to run then he can't be blamed for accepting. However, 'runrunrun' claimed that he talked himself on to the team. If this is idle speculation, then I agree that this is unfair. Given the circumstances and the athlete in question I found 'runrunrun's claim to be quite believable.

So perhaps 'runrunrun' could clarify whether or not he actually knows the details of the current situation?

thirtyfoot

cfitz wrote: »

So perhaps 'runrunrun' could clarify whether or not he actually knows the details of the current situation?

runrunrun has deleted the post with the comment so I think that knocks that one on the head.

Clum

Below report is from Fox61, the local station which covered the race. Mark Carroll ran too but no result for him yet. It's a 4.748 mile race.

Fagan, Naser Win Manchester Road Race Titles

By LORI RILEY

Martin Fagan, a 25-year-old Olympian from Ireland, took the lead on the Highland Park hill in the second mile and never let up to win his first Manchester Road Race Thursday morning in 21 minutes, 41 seconds.

Fagan finished second last year to Australian Andrew Letherby by one second. Letherby, a two-time winner, finished sixth this year. Haron Lagat of Kenya was second in 21:47 and Brian Olinger of Ohio was third for the second consecutive year, with a time of 21:49.

Teyba Naser of Bahrain won the women's race in 25 minutes, outkicking five-time winner Amy Rudolph of Providence, R.I. on Main Street. Rudolph finished at 25:02.

Joan Benoit Samuelson, the first women's marathon Olympic gold medalist in 1984, ran for the first time, finishing in 27:28.

Over 11,000 runners came out for the annual 4.748 mile race, in its 72nd year.

cfitz

Clum wrote: »

Below report is from Fox61, the local station which covered the race. Mark Carroll ran too but no result for him yet. It's a 4.748 mile race.

I think Carroll came 7th.

Koroibos

Why should Fagan get automatically picked for the Europeans if he can only finish 25 seconds ahead of Carroll. He should have been made run the trial. Still at least the best team is going to the Europeans.

Manchester Road Race 4.748 miles
1. Martin Fagan, Ireland, 21:41
2. Haron Lagat, Kenya, 21:47
3. Brian Olinger, Westerville, Ohio, 21:49
4. Andrew Carlson, Flagstaff, Ariz., 21:59
5. Andrew Lemoncello, Flagstaff, Ariz., 22:05
6. Andrew Letherby, Australia, 22:06
7. Mark Carroll, Ireland, 22:06
8. Celedonio Rodriguez Solis, Flagstaff, Ariz., 22:13
9. Fasil Bizuneh, Concord, Mass., 22:20
10. Seth Summerside, Boston, Mass., 22:24

shamrock29

I think there is always going to be people unhappy with certain selections made every year.From a personal point of view i think its great to see Mark Carroll in the European cross country team for Ireland.
He will add alot of experience to a team that is lacking experience(Mcormack 2nd euros,Christie who is fairly young and Ledwith also)
I would have liked to see Mark run the nationals though as it adds to the event and maybe we can attract more spectators.
reading in another thread about charging 10 euros entry but you will get this at any major sporting event and this was the Nationals and a trial for the Euro cross country after all.
I think in the womens u23 we have two women in Linda Byrne and Hollie Knight(was in 4th or 5th with 2k to go in ncaa)who will be aiming for medals.
In the mens U23 David Mcarthy will be aiming for a medal(19th in Ncaa)
Ciaran O lionard is a non starter now so team medals are out of the question.
Mens Seniors we have a team led by Martin Fagan who is in the shape of his life and I can't see him being out of the top 5(top 3 is very realistic)
Andrew Ledwith should be top 12 if he runs like he ran in Ncaa(3rd place)
If two of the following Mark Carroll/gary Murray/Mark Christie and Alan Mcormack)can score between them 30-40 points we will have a chance of a medal.

Stupid_Private

Koroibos wrote: »

Why should Fagan get automatically picked for the Europeans if he can only finish 25 seconds ahead of Carroll. He should have been made run the trial.

eh? Please say this is a piss take!! It does not deserve the effort to type a response.

Koroibos

Stupid_Private wrote: »

eh? Please say this is a piss take!! It does not deserve the effort to type a response.

It was just highlighting how stupid the arument that Carroll shouldn't have been picked if he didn't run the trial. No one would have expected Fagan to run the trial. Both are living in the US, that an expensive trip back.

It was ONLY the first 3 (each age group) from the inter-counties that got automatically selected. If you thought you had done enough or that you could run another race to prove your form to get one of the other 3 places, you didn't have to run the intercounties, it's a risk you take. If you came 4th in the intercounties, then your performance is treated just the same as if it was in any other race. ONLY THE FIRST THREE GOT AUTOMATICIALLY SELECTED. People finishing 4th or 5th where not unluck to not get selected, they where unlucky to not get in the top three.

shamrock29

Thats great from from Carroll if he was only 25seconds behind Fagan.
Was that poster joking earlier ???

cfitz

shamrock29 wrote: »

Thats great from from Carroll if he was only 25seconds behind Fagan.
Was that poster joking earlier ???

Looks like a fairly good result from Carroll. Fagan won the race though, so it's possible he could have went faster.

Rineanna

Predictable, yet still unfortunate, but Fionnuala Britton has had to withdraw from the Euro x-country.

http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/?p=5296#more-5296