Kilkenny Inner Relief Road Madness (Central Access Route)

ODS

The proposed new inner relief road/ central access scheme is an incredibly divisive scheme - in all senses. It will in my opinion destroy what gives Kilkenny it's unique character - namely that Kilkenny is the best-preserved medieval city in the country. A similar scheme was built in part in Dublin 20 years ago - with devastating effect on Christ Church Cathedral and the surrounding area.

Any proponent of the proposed road should spend some time as a pedestrian, cyclist - or for that matter as a motorist, at Dublin's Christchurch area. It is a failure. An ugly failure that has gashed 3-4 lanes either side of a median at most points - with the result being that pedestrians always have to stop 2 - 3 times at different islands, simply to cross a road. Corners, paths and shady areas around the junction provide a usefully dysfunctional environment where junkies openly deal heroin.

Although only parts of Dublin's inner relief road was built, the blight that the scheme caused created vast tracts of dereliction, with property prices plummeting as a result. Fortunately in Dublin's case, the scheme was largely abandoned - but it still took years for the city to recover, and some stretches - such as Summerhill (where fine Georgian terraces had stood), Bridgefoot Street, and Christchurch/ High Street, - are all still urban failures with large derelict tracts.

Were Kilkenny not already being bypassed by the new Waterford - Dublin motorway, however flawed in logic, it might be understandable that some quarters would propose an inner relief road. However this is not the case, and at a time when the country has spent somewhere in the region of 25 billion+, there can simply be no logical sanction for this scheme.

Moreover if this government stays the course, realistically it would be politically impossible for Minister of the Environment, Green TD John Gormley, to give it approval. Equally - if the government collapses - it is hard to see how an incoming administration in the midst of this generation's worst economic crisis, could give it priority.

It seems plausible therefore that this scheme won't press ahead. But this in itself is far from the answer. Should this scheme be left on the map it will have an insidiously deadening hand on the core of Kilkenny's city centre. Blight is likely to set in; dereliction - particularly given the economic downturn - is most probable. Applications for planning permissions along effected stretches are likely to be turned down. The centre is likely to suffer a miserable fate caught in a lifeless limbo whereby those charged with giving the city direction are likely to sit back and let rot set in. And for what? For a scheme that no national government is likely to fund? Madness. It is total, half-baked, fully-fledged, incomprehensible insanity.

Is this really what Kilkenny's citizens want?

And/ or if not, will you be asking this of the candidates in the upcoming local elections?

road_high

The M9 has nothing to do with the CAS and that project is the best thing ever to happen KK in terms of infrastructure.

What should be of greater priority in my book is extending the ring road over to link with the Freshford/Thurles road.
Why aren't those so opposed to the project promoting this as the obvious alternative???

ODS

mfitzy wrote: »

Why aren't those so opposed to the project promoting this as the obvious alternative?

How's this - see last paragraph...


From the Irish Times letters page:


Madam, - We, the undersigned, wish to put on record our profound dismay at the proposal by Kilkenny local authorities to construct an inner relief road through the heart of Ireland's only intact medieval city and a place of international importance.

In its present form this proposed road will have a devastating impact on the historic centre of the city. Quite apart from bringing heavy goods vehicles into the core of Kilkenny, it will entail the destruction of much ancient fabric of the city, both upstanding and buried.

It will cut off the 13th-century St Canice's Cathedral and its earlier precinct from the rest of the city, and it will rupture the street pattern of Dean Street/Vicar Street, which preserves the curve of the cathedral's ancient monastic enclosure, dating from the pre-Norman period.

It will eradicate medieval burgage plots, lanes and garden archaeology to the rear of Vicar Street, and it will irreparably alter the street plan in the historic Irishtown area, the oldest part of Kilkenny. Furthermore, the construction of a new cable-stay bridge about 100 metres downstream from Green's Bridge endangers the supposedly protected setting of this fine Palladian bridge.

The inner relief road proposal was put forward as long ago as 1978 and is typical of the intrusive and destructive road schemes of that period, so often now bitterly regretted.

Despite the destruction of one medieval street during preliminary work for this scheme in 1980, Kilkenny retains much of its historic cityscape, especially from the medieval period. This proposal flagrantly disregards the strenuous efforts that are now being made throughout Europe to keep traffic out of historic city centres.

We urge An Bord Pleanála to reject this scheme at its forthcoming meeting on December 1st and Kilkenny local authorities to favour instead a revised option to the north of the city, where through traffic can be more appropriately routed and prevented from inflicting further damage on this historic city. - Yours, etc,

Prof MICHELLE P. BROWN, University of London;

PETER BURMAN, Visiting Professor, Cultural Management, World Heritage Studies, Cottbus, Germany;

Prof PAUL CROSSLEY, Prof ERIC FERNIE, The Courtauld Institute of Art, London;

Dr UTE ENGEL, Centre of Intercultural Studies, University of Mainz, Germany;

Prof PETER FERGUSSON, Department of Art, Wellesley College, Massachusetts, USA;

PAUL GOSLING, Department of Humanities, Galway-Mayo Institute

of Technology;

Dr JANE HAWKES, Department of Art History, University of York;

T.A.HESLOP, School of World Art Studies, University of East Anglia;

Dr RACHEL MOSS, Department of History of Art, Trinity College Dublin;

Prof LAWRENCE NEES, Department of Art History, University of Delaware;

Dr NANCY NETZER, Director, McMullan Museum of Art and Professor of Art History, Boston College, Boston;

Dr ELIZABETH O'BRIEN, Mícheál Ó Cléirigh Institute, UCD;

Prof DÁIBHÍ Ó CRÓINÍN, Department of History, NUI Galway;

Prof ALISTAIR ROWAN, University of Cork;

Prof ROGER STALLEY, Trinity College Dublin;

VIRGINIA TEEHAN, Director, The Hunt Museum, Limerick;

Prof JOHN WADDELL, Department of Archaeology, NUI, Galway;

Prof CHRISTOPHER WILSON, Emeritus Professor, University College London;

SUSAN MAYBURY YOUNGS; Dr RICHARD GEM; PETER DRAPER, President, British Archaeological Association; Visiting Professor, Birkbeck, University of London; Royston, Hertfordhire, England.

jiggajt

Saw this on the green party website:




Posted on June 4th, 2008 by admin

The Inner Relief Road will do little to solve traffic problems in Kilkenny and has no place in modern urban planning’ according to Green Party Councillor Malcolm Noonan. Following a Presentation to elected members at a special meeting last night (Monday), in which the Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) and Final Design for the controversial proposed Inner Relief Road and Nore Bridge Crossing for Kilkenny City were put forward by Planners, Cllr Noonan warned that the proposed road would only serve to push further vehicle numbers through the city and cut off communities at the northern end of the City.
The EIS should have looked at non road alternatives as well as alternative routes. This project was first proposed over twenty years ago when the energy crisis and climate change were not considered pressing issues, urban planning has shifted radically away from car centred mobility in recent decades. We cannot facilitate further traffic growth before offering viable alternatives to commuters, a business as usual approach is no longer acceptable’, claimed Cllr Noonan.

Heritage groups such as Kilkenny Archaeological Society have already outlined concerns to Kilkenny County Council Planners regarding the damage to the integrity of one of the oldest quarters of the city and despite the removal of several contentious aspects of the proposed project, these concerns remain.

Cllr Noonan stated that the proposed Inner Relief Road, (now re named The Central Access Scheme) and bridge crossing are excessive engineering solutions to what is basically an urban planning problem. At the meeting he welcomed the fact that the outer ring road would now proceed to design phase, but argued that this should be given priority over the City bridge crossing. While I feel vindicated that my objections regarding the loss of the Garrison House resulted in the removal of the Wolfe Tone St Spur and my proposals for a shuttle bus public transport fleet and integration of a cycle lane network will now be brought forward, I believe we could have pursued non Relief Road options coupled with the fast tracking of the outer ring road and northern bridge crossing and start addressing transport issues in line with European best practice’.
My worry is that once this road is put in place, it will actually generate far more traffic than predicted and dilute the viability of public transport. I hope I’m wrong, but the evidence from other towns is not encouraging’ stated the Green Party Councillor.

Following the meeting, his colleague Deputy Mary White TD agreed with the contention that the road could lead to exponential growth of traffic in the city and create congestion hot spots at peak times. ‘Cllr Noonan and I have studied the project in great detail and I have walked the route with both Cllr Noonan and the County Manager. Given the way our fuel prices are going and looking at our international obligations to reduce emissions from the transport sector, a road must only be considered as a last resort. We all want Kilkenny to develop and prosper, but we must recognise that this city is a unique gem in Ireland and we only have one chance to get our planning right. I will study closely the documentation issued to public last night and I will issue a further statement when I have time to analyse all the supplied data. ’ she stated.

At the meeting, Cllr Noonan outlined an alternate plan. ‘What we need form the outset, is a Vision for the future development of Kilkenny, not one that is based around outdated strategies. I think the first statement we must make as urban planners and policy makers is to make an active commitment through the Development Plan to reduce vehicle numbers entering the city by 50% over a ten year period and to incentivise public transport, walking and cycling as the primary modes of mobility, as is the case in any forward thinking municipality.

Kilkenny could lead the way for other regional towns as a centre for sustainable urban mobility and in the process create a healthier, more passive urban environment for its citizens and visitors and copper fasten the economic vibrancy of the City’s core. The Central Access Scheme as proposed is a retrograde step and future generations will not judge us kindly if this is all we have to offer’, he concluded.

road_high

Incentivise public transport in KK ................meanwhile back on planet earth the 99% of the rest here use CARS to get to work because there is no reliable alternative.
All very well for Noonan & the Green party to spout their anti-road agenda whereas the rest of us rely on cars to get to work and school.

KatCookie

But, Kilkenny town /city (-lets not get into that here) isnt That big, coming into the city at 8:30 every morning and often going through the Irishtown area, i dont get stuck in town every day for more than a few minutes, and then, its just the traffic lights. In the evenings, the traffic lights near spar would be backed up to the roundabouts near the butts.

Any time i visit Waterford, Limerick, Cork, i am immediately stuck in traffic- theses cites are obviously bigger, but also have bigger problems.

Sure, i would like to see a road from the the castlecomer road to the callan roundabout but to do that, it would cause more damage than its worth, not being overly familiar with Dublin (but i have a vague idea of Christchurch cathedral so i'm not too sure what it was like)
the main problem is Greens Bridge, anything bigger than a SUV must go over it alone, causing severe back-ups
Perhaps, im just early and dont see the real traffic problems but IMO, "fixing" i.e widening the bridge would help solve the biggest problem. but we are so attached to our heritage, that we cant "sacrifice" some of it for the better..

As for public transport.. what public transport?

road_high

Think the idea behind the IRR is to ultimately restore Greensbridge to it's former glory.i.e. remove those ugly steel sidings and put back the original stonework (the council actually have them in storage somewhere since the '70s).

KatCookie I do think a new outer ring road is most definitely needed from the 'Comer to Callan roads and traffic volumes justify same.

jiggajt

mfitzy, I am by no means supporting the greens anti road stance believe me. Nobody is more pro road infrastructure than me believe me. I get excited when i see two lane motorways swathing through the countryside. To me they are beautiful engineering undertakings. I should know because as a geotechnical engineer i sometimes help in aspects of designing roads.

Its just in my view the inner relief road is completely unnecessary. The completion of the ring rd can cope with the levels of traffic that the inner relief rd is designed to take. The only reason why they're even considering the IRR is as the proposed development in the mart simply wont go ahead without it. From a pure traffic perspective however, it's not needed and would do untold damage to the cityscape and archaelogy of Kilkenny.

catbear

the irr in one shape or another has been proposed as far back as the early eighties. i can not see it happening due to the bubble bursting and the lost revenue from it, the most likely thing to happen will be the bridge further up the river at a later date. do not be surprised if it's decades from now.

although i do agree with the objectors on some points, it absolutely gets my graw when they tell me how i or any kilkenny person should have to live. we live in the present, heritage is important but it should not stop us planing for our future, if they wish to understand us, they must live with us. perhaps more third level involvement.

a lot of traffic could be taken off the roads at peak times by city school buses/ better/more cycle lane.

KatCookie

mfitzy wrote: »

Think the idea behind the IRR is to ultimately restore Greensbridge to it's former glory.i.e. remove those ugly steel sidings and put back the original stonework (the council actually have them in storage somewhere since the '70s).

KatCookie I do think a new outer ring road is most definitely needed from the 'Comer to Callan roads and traffic volumes justify same.

I am saying that we do need a road
Its much handier for a lorry coming from comer and heading for callan(or vice versa) to go over greens bridge than bypass KK around the whole outer ring road,
but depending on where its going, the new road could do serious damage!
but we dont have serious traffic issues, like heading into Thurles at 11 am a Saturday morning, going over the Suir river, can take at least 10 mins, there isnt a HUGE volume of traffic, just poor infrastructure!

Alzar

Before the ring road extension was completed, the traffic coming in the 'Comer road was tailbacked out past Glendine Heights with motorists trying to get across Greens Bridge or down John Street.
I firmly believe that the ring road should be completed from the 'Comer Road across to the Callan Road instead of the IRR. Let those who need to drive into the City do so & those who don't, allow them to drive around it.

I for one would hate to be living on any of the streets along the proposed IRR route. The road noise & fumes must be unbearable at times.

road_high

The ring road extension has defo had an impact on KK traffic. It really was chaotic that side of town before it opened.Those say that traffic is "grand" though still in KK are on a different planet as far as i'm concerned.
And as for comparing KK traffic with Thurles, a town of 6,000 people, is not really that relevant.

There was something in the news today re the IRR. An bord pleanala hearing or such like.

KatCookie

Being late this morning i would be willing to retract my statement,: Kilkenny traffic is just as bad as i remembered it -i just miss it because i'd be that little bit earlier than most of the traffic.

This whole debate was on RTE at 6 this evening, they had two fools (IMO) one of which goes around objecting to anything even remotely related to renewable energy, i think he must be messed up to be objecting to the likes of that when he isnt even from the area!
He was against building a new bridge, which i think is totally appalling. They should have interviewed the locals who drive through those areas at peak times!

dodgerkk

With all the letter writers to the Irish Times, the Kilkenny People and speaking at the Ormonde Hotel today against the CAS - is it a fair question to ask how many of them actually live/work here in Kilkenny? What about the safety aspect of Greens Bridge - at present it is a disaster waiting to happen...

As for Cllr. Noonan (is that the FF or Green Party? - not sure anymore ) - this is the same guy who was on KCLR recently saying that he didn't necessarily agree with all of the Green Party's policies (this was around the time of taking the Medical Card from the elderly) and yet still has the neck to call himself a Green Party member - you either agree with your party or you have the balls to stand up for what you believe in and stand as an independent in the next election.

road_high

KatCookie wrote: »

He was against building a new bridge, which i think is totally appalling. They should have interviewed the locals who drive through those areas at peak times!

Exactly. Of course the rest of us are too busy with work and real life to attend these hearings. We are the ones whom the road will really benefit from such development.
Typical KK green objectors have their say :mad:

road_high

dodgerkk wrote: »

With all the letter writers to the Irish Times, the Kilkenny People and speaking at the Ormonde Hotel today against the CAS - is it a fair question to ask how many of them actually live/work here in Kilkenny? What about the safety aspect of Greens Bridge - at present it is a disaster waiting to happen...

.

Yea thought the exact same Dodger. Mainly academics and as we know KK lacks a 3rd level institution. Should be up to the CITIZENS of KK to decide, not those that visit once in a blue moon for holidays and a little archeology.

Kilkenny is for living in afterall, and doing business. If that's not a priority here then other towns and cities will gladly out compete KIlkenny.

KatCookie

Even that Greens minister, Ryan i think it is, doesnt agree with his own party i heard, so that Councillor doesnt mean much!

Walking across Greens Bridge most days, i'd agree too, the safety aspect is none existant! Can't say those two barriers on each side are very safe, and if it was possible to walk acros on both sides, then you wouldnt have the need for that desperate pedestrian crossing!

road_high

I'm kind of at a loss as to what/where are the historical quarters that the road will go through?

Across from Wolfe tone st, over the Nore to part of the old brewery site and onto Dean st.
Dean st. is already there, St. Francis Abbey is well out of the firing line

catbear

dodgerkk wrote: »

With all the letter writers to the Irish Times, the Kilkenny People and speaking at the Ormonde Hotel today against the CAS - is it a fair question to ask how many of them actually live/work here in Kilkenny? What about the safety aspect of Greens Bridge - at present it is a disaster waiting to happen...

been happening for decades. i think it was early 90s that young school gilr got killed off her bicycle at the greensbridge junction.
i am curious what quimbys interest is in getting this road pushed through?

PhilipMarlowe

Out of curiosity, when you cross green's bridge, where are you going to or coming from?
I would usually be coming from the castlecomer road and going to the hospital or towards freshford so I would much prefer to see the ring road completed which would make the trip multiple times easier...
The completion of the ring road would obviously take a lot of traffic out of town that doesn't want to be there.

KatCookie

I'd go across it from the irishtown side to the swimming pool side, in the mornings by car
and going the opposite direction in the evening on foot. I see it on the point of view of the pedestrian and as a person in a car and at different times too.
So would all us KK people be pro to a new bridge? (whether its getting rid of existing bridge, or building another one) most of us would want one.. yes?

catbear

i'm for a new bridge, however i doubt we'll actually get one.
i dropped into the hearing today in the Ormond.
there were more parties to the discussion than members of the public present. it was a very pedestrian affair, no one with banners or anything like that.
again i can not see any further major engineering works going ahead in Kilkenny with the current economic climate.
the engineers were very practical, matter of fact, no fuss in giving their views whereas the guy cross examining them was an absolute arse. he kept trying to twist what was been said. he looked a right tit.
personally i'm against the IRR and would prefer the money be spent on finishing the ring road further up the river but hearing these objectors nit picking really made me want to have nothing to do with them.
at one stage he asked the bridge engineer why he hadn't included trees in a montage picture. he's a bridge designer giving his testimony about designing bridges, not shrubbery.
really, it was a real waste of tax euro just for point scoring.

jiggajt

Has anyone heard anything else about this? Is there any more public consultations or oral hearings coming up?

itsonlyme

mfitzy wrote: »

I'm kind of at a loss as to what/where are the historical quarters that the road will go through?

Across from Wolfe tone st, over the Nore to part of the old brewery site and onto Dean st.
Dean st. is already there, St. Francis Abbey is well out of the firing line

I agree with you totally.

Have a [EMAIL="L@@k"]L@@k[/EMAIL]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHj5Hywz888 -