NEW FIRE SAFETY GUIDANCE - BS 9999

sinnerboy

see here

http://www.bsigroup.com/en/Shop/Publication-Detail/?pid=000000000030158436

note

"BS 9999 will supersede DD 9999, and the entire BS 5588 series (with the exception of BS 5588-1), which will be withdrawn on 6 April 2009."

( BS 5588-1 - houses is not affected )

archtech

I knew it was going alright, fire certs could be interesting in the coming months when the BS5588 range are withdrawn. The arguments between Fire Officers and some Consultants over why they can't still use BS5588 .:D:D

No6

It shoud be interesting alright, I wonder will we get away with using the old bs 5588 codes until Part B is updated? ( I'll find out soon enough as I've got a firecert going in today!! if I could just get off this thing and finish it!! )

sinnerboy

No6 wrote: »

It shoud be interesting alright, I wonder will we get away with using the old bs 5588 codes until Part B is updated? ( I'll find out soon enough as I've got a firecert going in today!! if I could just get off this thing and finish it!! )

you have until 05 April 09

Poor Uncle Tom

sinnerboy wrote: »

"BS 9999 will supersede DD 9999, and the entire BS 5588 series (with the exception of BS 5588-1), which will be withdrawn on 6 April 2009."

So here it is at last.

Any idea when the new Disabled Access (BS 8300) will be out, I think it is due as well.

sinnerboy

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

So here it is at last.

Any idea when the new Disabled Access (BS 8300) will be out, I think it is due as well.

..... soon ( not my word )

http://www.bsigroup.com/en/Standards-and-Publications/Industry-Sectors/Building-and-Construction/BS-8300-DPC/BS-8300-dpc/

topcatcbr

What is going to happen to our TGD B which refers to BS 5588 in several places.

RKQ

topcatcbr wrote: »

What is going to happen to our TGD B which refers to BS 5588 in several places.

Nothing really until TGD B is updated. If it complies with BS 5588 it will comply until our Government updates our law!

Naturally, as a Profession you will try to comply with the latest standards but legally our law is still our law.

Thanks for the update Sinnerboy

archtech

topcatcbr wrote: »

What is going to happen to our TGD B which refers to BS 5588 in several places.

Until such time as it is revised, it will be a case of agreeing which standard to use with the fire officer I guess. Prior to the current TDG-B (2006), there was a reference to some BS (I think it was to do with disabled access/persons, I can't honestly remember) in the TDG-B , which was withdrawn and I know some fire officers accepted the use of that BS yet it had been withdrawn while others didn't.

If one is professional about one's business one will be looking at using best practice, at the time of engagement of one's services. So if BS5588 is withdrawn then one should ideally use BS 9999. Remember one does not have to use TDG-B to demonstrate compliance with Part B of the Building Regulations.

sinnerboy

Well this is so true . We are not trusted to Part B ( apart from houses ) in making proposals to comply with regs . We need our proposals approved by the fire cert process .

I would be surprised if a fire officer was unhappy with a propsal made today using BS 9999 as a basis


( 400 + pages of it - yikes no sleep for a month )

topcatcbr

Is there a link to it

sinnerboy

no - you have to buy it 300 pounds engilsh

Mellor

sinnerboy wrote: »

no - you have to buy it 300 pounds engilsh

I think I have a link, but not something I can access outside of work

Mellor

sinnerboy wrote: »

no - you have to buy it 300 pounds engilsh

I think I have a link, but not something I can access outside of work

No6

Sinnerboy has it posted in the first post!!:D

muffler

sinnerboy wrote: »

no - you have to buy it 300 pounds engilsh

You're a twisted man

No6

Sorry to drag up this old post but I just chaught sight of this at a meeting with the Fire Officer today, its huge we'll be reading for about six months!!! :eek: Not looking forward to splashing out 300 sterling for it though!!!

RKQ

No6 wrote: »

its huge we'll be reading for about six months!!! :eek: Not looking forward to splashing out 300 sterling for it though!!!

At less the Euro is strong against Sterling now!:D

No6

True but should have got santa to bring it when the euro was at 98p!!!!!

sydthebeat

Just bumping this again to keep all posters informed of the incoming regs.

According to one fire officer local to me, its considered acceptable for the existing BS 5588's to be used for design compliance while the existing TGD B is in existence.

parka

hi,

just want to get some feedback on the subject matter of evacuation for PWD.
I know Part B, covers very little on the subject and BS5588 is superseded with BS9999 and the NDA document, while interesting and a good starting point, is very prescriptive.

How do you deal with subject matter?

Do you consider it at design stage

or leave to the fire application (or the person doing the fire certificate application)

or do you expect the client to deal with it through management?

Have you considered any alternatives to the 'Refuge' concept?

Any personal experiences.

sydthebeat

PWD?? persons with disabilities?

Personally, all 'means of escape' design in non-domestic projects must be considered at design stage and pre-planning. It would be very foolish to design for planning, get granted, and then to have to apply again for new doors or escape stairwells etc.....

If its not considered at design stage its a not a professional project in my opinion.

The evacuation procedure must be considered by both the FSC application AND the clients fire management structures.

To be honest, i have no problem with the 'refuge' concept... once its contained within a protected stairwell. I feel good design will always locate lift entrances and refuge areas within protected stairwells or other similar areas. Until such time as elevator manufacturers can guarantee use in case of fire, i cannot see other options.......

parka

sydthebeat wrote: »

PWD?? persons with disabilities?

Personally, all 'means of escape' design in non-domestic projects must be considered at design stage and pre-planning. It would be very foolish to design for planning, get granted, and then to have to apply again for new doors or escape stairwells etc.....

If its not considered at design stage its a not a professional project in my opinion.

The evacuation procedure must be considered by both the FSC application AND the clients fire management structures.

To be honest, i have no problem with the 'refuge' concept... once its contained within a protected stairwell. I feel good design will always locate lift entrances and refuge areas within protected stairwells or other similar areas. Until such time as elevator manufacturers can guarantee use in case of fire, i cannot see other options.......

Thanks for the reply Sydthebeat,

It's strange that I have seen some companies use the refuge (and evacuation chairs) instead of the fire lift that had been installed in the building too. I suppose my concern is once you reach a refuge area, what happens next. I've been to plenty of buildings were staff are part time and haven't been trained in evacuating all potential users. While I know the fire brigade will assist evacuation, it isn't their duty.

Sorry I should said I'm writing a college paper on this subject, so people's views will be very helpful (sorry for the thread jack).

BS8300 has also been updated and now available too.

sydthebeat

humm... what you are describing is bad management.. if part time staff havent been trained in the fire management procedures.

i cannot see how the failure of management systems can be dealt with in either design or FSC stage... one can only ever design to provide every opportunity for escape...

I have seen many cases where lifts are not allowed to be used in case of fire outbreak.. this is specifically referred to in some regs. Maybe thats why some companies use the refuge instead of the lift??

No6

parka wrote: »

Thanks for the reply Sydthebeat,

It's strange that I have seen some companies use the refuge (and evacuation chairs) instead of the fire lift that had been installed in the building too. I suppose my concern is once you reach a refuge area, what happens next. I've been to plenty of buildings were staff are part time and haven't been trained in evacuating all potential users. While I know the fire brigade will assist evacuation, it isn't their duty.

Sorry I should said I'm writing a college paper on this subject, so people's views will be very helpful (sorry for the thread jack).

BS8300 has also been updated and now available too.

I think you are possibly mistaking the role of a fire lift, its for the use of the fire brigade to get to a fire in tall or large buildings, its use is reserved for fire brigade personel not staff evacuating anybody. The idea of the refuge for persons with disabilities (wheelchair bound primarily) is as the normal lifts shut off during a fire a person with disabilites cannot get down the stairs and so must wait evacuation by fire brigade in a "relatively safe" area, the stairwells being considered as such due to the fire resistance of the enclosure usually a min of 1hour for most type of buildings with any sort of height over ground level.

The normal lifts are not allowed to be used during fires as if fire gets into the shaft it will spread through the building very quickly.

BAZM8

************

parka

No6 wrote: »

I think you are possibly mistaking the role of a fire lift, its for the use of the fire brigade to get to a fire in tall or large buildings, its use is reserved for fire brigade personel not staff evacuating anybody. The idea of the refuge for persons with disabilities (wheelchair bound primarily) is as the normal lifts shut off during a fire a person with disabilites cannot get down the stairs and so must wait evacuation by fire brigade in a "relatively safe" area, the stairwells being considered as such due to the fire resistance of the enclosure usually a min of 1hour for most type of buildings with any sort of height over ground level.

The normal lifts are not allowed to be used during fires as if fire gets into the shaft it will spread through the building very quickly.

Hi No6 thanks for that.
On some new schemes, evacuation lifts have been installed so that the lift can be used as an alternative to the refuge area plus the next stage of evacuation. I know the OPW have started to use them in some of their recent schemes.

Duty of evacuation is not the responsibility of the Fire Brigade, they will evacuate if a person is left trapped in a building, but the management have to ensure there is an evacuation plan in place and this is were the likes of part time staff, cost cutting exercises etc. seem to be putting people lives at risk.

I think this is where there is a grey area between TGD Part B and the management of a building. What happens next scenario.

It's been a few years since I've produced a fire cert application, do you have to state how a person with a disability will evacuated?

civdef

It's been a few years since I've produced a fire cert application, do you have to state how a person with a disability will evacuated?

You need to deal with the provisions of ramps, refuges, warning systems etc - the management of evacuation isn't needed at FSCA stage.

Just to get back to the original query, for the forseeable future, BS5588 based designs will still be acceptable - until TGD-B is revised. There should be official guidance coming from the DEHLG on this shortly.

minifan

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SerialComplaint

Just came across this thread today while looking for information on BS 9999

sydthebeat wrote: »

To be honest, i have no problem with the 'refuge' concept... once its contained within a protected stairwell.

Just curious - would you have a problem if you were the one being told to stay behind in the building while everyone else gets out?

topcatcbr wrote: »

What is going to happen to our TGD B which refers to BS 5588 in several places.

sydthebeat wrote: »

According to one fire officer local to me, its considered acceptable for the existing BS 5588's to be used for design compliance while the existing TGD B is in existence.

RKQ wrote: »

Nothing really until TGD B is updated. If it complies with BS 5588 it will comply until our Government updates our law!

Naturally, as a Profession you will try to comply with the latest standards but legally our law is still our law.

TGD B states the following in the intro;

A reference to a technical specification is to the latest
edition (including any amendments, supplements or
addenda) current at the date of publication of this
Technical Guidance Document. However, if this version
of the technical specification is subsequently revised or
updated by the issuing body, the new version may be used
as a source of guidance provided that it continues to
address the relevant requirements of the Regulations.

According to BSI, BS 9999 supersedes BS 5588, so my understanding is that the current part B references to BS 5588 now refer to BS 9999. I don't believe that any further change in our TGD is required for this.

sydthebeat

SerialComplaint wrote: »

1. Just curious - would you have a problem if you were the one being told to stay behind in the building while everyone else gets out?


2. According to BSI, BS 9999 supersedes BS 5588, so my understanding is that the current part B references to BS 5588 now refer to BS 9999. I don't believe that any further change in our TGD is required for this.

1. In my experience, fire escape design is all about minimising risk. Is the risk to a disable person increased if they use an electrically powered lift to escape..?? Is the risk increased if they have no option but to use stairwell?? i agree that the regulations are grossly inadequate, but whats a viable alternative proven solution... you cannot design for 'heroism'. Should the means of minimising risk be on the onus of the individual, the managment of the building, the designers, the constructors, the fire rescue service ..... or, as i would assert, all of the above?

2. You are reading it incorrectly..... it states "the new version may be used as a source of guidance provided that it continues to address the relevant requirements of the Regulations."... so, what everyone has been saying is, both BS's are acceptable to be used. Once TGD B is updated, then BS 5588 will be supercede because BS 9999 will be the "latest
edition current at the date of publication of this
Technical Guidance Document"

No6

Check with your local fire officer first before using BS9999, some are not accecpting applications using this code mainly according to my local Fire officer because they havn't been trained up in it yet. Speaking of which anyone going to this CPD night http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055535442&page=2

Danbo!

We had that CPD in house 2 weeks ago, well worth going to imo.

r-i-tect

sydthebeat wrote: »

Should the means of minimising risk be on the onus of the individual, the managment of the building, the designers, the constructors, the fire rescue service ..... or, as i would assert, all of the above?

Syd, You raise a good point, one that BS9999 tries to cover by high lighting the inadequacies of the refuge concept and starts highlighting the alternatives and their pit falls (Training, evac chairs etc.) In essence responsibility should be across the board, but in reality it is only flagged when a person with a disability enters a work place or worse still when a potential risk emerges.

archtech

While I can't say I have a working knowledge of BS 9999 yet, from my review of it so far and discussions I've had its my opinion that it will be case of using either TDG-B or BS999 for demonstrating compliance with the 5 parts of Part B of the building regulations and not a case of mix and match between both documents, as there are some significant differences.

As in the title BS9999 isn't just a document to be used for the fire safety design of buildings, it also is a code of practice for the management and use of the building in terms of fire safety and in reality building owners and occupiers need to be aware of their responsibilities under the document. As designers we should (possibly) need to make our clients aware of the document and their responsibilities.

SerialComplaint

THis event may be of interest to those interested in BS 9999 http://www.nda.ie/cntmgmtnew.nsf/0/195244135ECA466B8025741F00529C24/$File/SafeEvacuationForAllConference2009.htm

focus_mad

Had to use BS9999 during the summer for a fire cert application for a large supermarket.

I'm only going into 3rd Year surveying and had to start from scratch, I still see that document in me nightmares!!!!

Tim76

10 years on and still no official recognition of BS 9999 in the Irish regs. Who would have thought!