Visions of Our Lady

Gareth37

I think that it is about time that we recorded a list of the visions of Our Lady, the mother of Jesus, throughout the world.

In accordance with scripture she has converted many.

Lourdes
Medjugorje
Knock
Fatima
Cairns


Keep adding to the list.

wolfsbane

Gareth37 wrote: »

I think that it is about time that we recorded a list of the visions of Our Lady, the mother of Jesus, throughout the world.

In accordance with scripture she has converted many.

Lourdes
Medjugorje
Knock
Fatima
Cairns


Keep adding to the list.

The first thing we should do is to question these visions and the message they proclaim:

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Pompey Magnus

Gareth37 wrote: »

Keep adding to the list.

Florida:

djeddy

Gareth37 wrote: »

I think that it is about time that we recorded a list of the visions of Our Lady, the mother of Jesus, throughout the world.

In accordance with scripture she has converted many.

Lourdes
Medjugorje
Knock
Fatima
Cairns


Keep adding to the list.

www.sancta.org/

studiorat

http://www.wayodd.com/chicago-woman-claims-virgin-mary-appear-on-pet-turtle/v/3926/

Pompey Magnus

Florida again:

AtomicHorror

Charco wrote: »

Florida:

Sacrilicious.

robindch

Charco wrote: »

Florida:

Pff, that's nothing. You need one of these:

http://plainfront.com/theholytoaster/

Fanny Cradock

Don't you evil heathens have a religious humour thread for this sort of stuff? Best take it there! Still, I have to admit that I'm quite taken by the waffle.

kelly1

Gareth37 wrote: »

I think that it is about time that we recorded a list of the visions of Our Lady, the mother of Jesus, throughout the world.

In accordance with scripture she has converted many.

Lourdes
Medjugorje
Knock
Fatima
Cairns


Keep adding to the list.

Personally I'm very wary of Medjugorge but I do believe Lourdes and Fatima.

Have you come across La Salette and Akita? Both of these have been given Church approval. The messages are quite scary:

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/catholicteaching/privaterevelation/lasalet.html

and

http://www.ewtn.com/library/mary/akita.htm

EamonnKeane

Interestingly, She always comes to poor, backwards rural areas which experience an economic boom straight after. 'Tis a miracle!

kelly1

EamonnKeane wrote: »

Interestingly, She always comes to poor, backwards rural areas which experience an economic boom straight after. 'Tis a miracle!

God prefers to work through humble people Eamonn.

Dades

kelly1 wrote: »

God prefers to work through humble people Eamonn.

Humble white people.

MrPudding

Humble, white, catholic people?

MrP

LordSutch

Whatever happened to the 'moving statues' of the virgin mary?

kelly1

Dades wrote: »

Humble white people.

Here's an apparition in Rwanda: http://www.michaeljournal.org/kibeho.htm

Dades

Touché.

toiletduck

Camelot wrote: »

Whatever happened to the 'moving statues' of the virgin mary?

It was the 80's, she emigrated.


What did happen there though? I mean any coverage I've seen of it makes the country look like a loony bin.

Fanny Cradock

I've got a feeling that this thread is going nowhere fast. I'll leave it open for a little longer and see what happens.

djeddy

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I've got a feeling that this thread is going nowhere fast. I'll leave it open for a little longer and see what happens.

I know what you mean fanny,
But some of us are posting genuine posts on this thread

Madge

kelly1 wrote: »

Personally I'm very wary of Medjugorge

Can I ask why? Have you been there Kelly?

studiorat

Camelot wrote: »

Whatever happened to the 'moving statues' of the virgin mary?

Dunno if this is OT but here goes...
I was getting a taxi home from work a few years ago and I got to talking about celebrities of something with the driver. Anyway he says to me "Did you ever see me on the telly", "No, says I, what were you on?" "The Late Late show" he says. "Me and 2 mates, went down to Ballinspittle and took a hammer to that statue in-front of everybody praying there on their knees!"

He believed it was idolatry, he was a Pentecostalist, a real serious Christian type too. Personally I believe it made the people of this country a laughing stock in-front of the rest of the world. I'm not one for iconoclasim, more out of respect for the craftsmen who built such a thing, but his actions were badly needed if you ask me.

Malari

studiorat wrote: »

Dunno if this is OT but here goes...
I was getting a taxi home from work a few years ago and I got to talking about celebrities of something with the driver. Anyway he says to me "Did you ever see me on the telly", "No, says I, what were you on?" "The Late Late show" he says. "Me and 2 mates, went down to Ballinspittle and took a hammer to that statue in-front of everybody praying there on their knees!"

He believed it was idolatry, he was a Pentecostalist, a real serious Christian type too. Personally I believe it made the people of this country a laughing stock in-front of the rest of the world. I'm not one for iconoclasim, more out of respect for the craftsmen who built such a thing, but his actions were badly needed if you ask me.

I thought you were going to say he got off the charge on self-defense.

studiorat

You know I never asked him was he charged. I do know that it the place is not a place of worship like a church or something, so I'd guess the charges wouldn't be as serious...

Puck

studiorat wrote: »

You know I never asked him was he charged. I do know that it the place is not a place of worship like a church or something, so I'd guess the charges wouldn't be as serious...

Charged with "causing malicious damage in a place of divine worship" apparently, it was dismissed since the grotto was deemed to not be a place of divine worship. Still think they are a bunch of prats though.

studiorat

Two bunches IMO.

I suppose it would have been good for tourism in the town had they had a place of divine worship. Had they just tried for malicious damage they may have got somewhere, but no they had to say it was divine. Mistake...

Good thing too, next thing you'd have every hole in the hedge as some sort of divine place of worship.

Biro

MrPudding wrote: »

Humble, white, catholic people?

MrP

Well, if He started to work through you we're all doomed!
Who took a bite out of that waffle?

wolfsbane

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Don't you evil heathens have a religious humour thread for this sort of stuff? Best take it there! Still, I have to admit that I'm quite taken by the waffle.

:D

wolfsbane

kelly1 wrote: »

Personally I'm very wary of Medjugorge but I do believe Lourdes and Fatima.

Have you come across La Salette and Akita? Both of these have been given Church approval. The messages are quite scary:

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/catholicteaching/privaterevelation/lasalet.html

and

http://www.ewtn.com/library/mary/akita.htm

Hmm. So 1846 saw the loosing of Lucifer on the earth?
"In the year 1864 Lucifer, together with a great number of devils, will be loosed from hell; little by little they will abolish the faith, and that even in persons consecrated to God; they will so blind them, that without a special grace, these persons will take on the spirit of these evil angels; a number of religious houses will lose the faith entirely and cause many souls to be damned.

And it was Mary who gave the sabbath, not God?
I gave you six days to work, I kept the seventh for myself, and no one wishes to grant it to me.

And some new revelation about the identity of Antichrist:
"It will be at this time that the Antichrist will be born of a Hebrew nun, a false virgin who will be in communication with the ancient serpent, master of impurity; his father will be a bishop (Ev.). [We spell out the word "bishop" here. In the French text appear only the first two letters of évèque, the French word for bishop, but there is little doubt that this is the word they stand for, because in Mélanie's first draft of the message the whole word is spelled out.]

"At birth he will vomit blasphemies, he will have teeth; in a word, this will be the devil incarnate; he will utter terrifying cries, he will work wonders, he will live only on impurities. He will have brothers who, although not incarnate devils like himself, will be children of evil; at the age of twelve, they will be noted for the valiant victories they will win; soon they will each be at the head of armies, assisted by legions from hell.

You really believe this is of God, Noel?

Gareth37

wolfsbane wrote: »

Hmm. So 1846 saw the loosing of Lucifer on the earth?
"In the year 1864 Lucifer, together with a great number of devils, will be loosed from hell; little by little they will abolish the faith, and that even in persons consecrated to God; they will so blind them, that without a special grace, these persons will take on the spirit of these evil angels; a number of religious houses will lose the faith entirely and cause many souls to be damned.

And it was Mary who gave the sabbath, not God?
I gave you six days to work, I kept the seventh for myself, and no one wishes to grant it to me.

And some new revelation about the identity of Antichrist:
"It will be at this time that the Antichrist will be born of a Hebrew nun, a false virgin who will be in communication with the ancient serpent, master of impurity; his father will be a bishop (Ev.). [We spell out the word "bishop" here. In the French text appear only the first two letters of évèque, the French word for bishop, but there is little doubt that this is the word they stand for, because in Mélanie's first draft of the message the whole word is spelled out.]

"At birth he will vomit blasphemies, he will have teeth; in a word, this will be the devil incarnate; he will utter terrifying cries, he will work wonders, he will live only on impurities. He will have brothers who, although not incarnate devils like himself, will be children of evil; at the age of twelve, they will be noted for the valiant victories they will win; soon they will each be at the head of armies, assisted by legions from hell.

You really believe this is of God, Noel?

But the Catholic Church accepts Our Lady and Our Lady's Rosary, something that kept faith alive in this country?

kelly1

wolfsbane wrote: »

Hmm. So 1846 saw the loosing of Lucifer on the earth?
"In the year 1864 Lucifer, together with a great number of devils, will be loosed from hell; little by little they will abolish the faith, and that even in persons consecrated to God; they will so blind them, that without a special grace, these persons will take on the spirit of these evil angels; a number of religious houses will lose the faith entirely and cause many souls to be damned.

There is no doubt that there has been serious apostasy in the Church. The apostasy is certaily biblical and there was also something about Satan being loosed was there not?

wolfsbane wrote: »

And it was Mary who gave the sabbath, not God?
I gave you six days to work, I kept the seventh for myself, and no one wishes to grant it to me.

I assumed Mary was quoting Dueteronomy. Of course God gave the sabbath.

wolfsbane wrote: »

And some new revelation about the identity of Antichrist:
"It will be at this time that the Antichrist will be born of a Hebrew nun, a false virgin who will be in communication with the ancient serpent, master of impurity; his father will be a bishop (Ev.). [We spell out the word "bishop" here. In the French text appear only the first two letters of évèque, the French word for bishop, but there is little doubt that this is the word they stand for, because in Mélanie's first draft of the message the whole word is spelled out.]

"At birth he will vomit blasphemies, he will have teeth; in a word, this will be the devil incarnate; he will utter terrifying cries, he will work wonders, he will live only on impurities. He will have brothers who, although not incarnate devils like himself, will be children of evil; at the age of twelve, they will be noted for the valiant victories they will win; soon they will each be at the head of armies, assisted by legions from hell.

I don't know about this. Does it contradict Scripture?

wolfsbane wrote: »

You really believe this is of God, Noel?

I'm keeping an open mind.

Gareth37

'Hail full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women.'

Salutation of St. Elizabeth to the Virgin Mary and the wonderful canticle MAGNIFICAT in which Mary foretold that "the generations would call her blessed."

LordSutch

As Anglicans we fully agree that the Virgin Mary is to be loved & adored by all, we just dont see the need to 'pray to her' (or worship her)! because we pray directly to God . . . I am not belitteling this RC practice, seeing as praying to the virgin Mary is one of the cornerstones o the Roman Catholic Church, but its also one of those differences between the Churches that makes our Christian Family all the more interesting and complex - if a little puzzling (to us Anglicans).

Zombrex

Since no one knows what Mary (or Jesus) looked like beyond vague descriptions in the Bible (Jesus seemingly had short curly hair like black wool) it is always a bit curious when people claim to have seen Mary.

It seems, strangely, that instead of looking like a Palestinian Jewish woman from the 1st century these visions look or are described as being very similar to Renaissance paintings where Mary is represented by a 15th century Western European lady.

djeddy

Mary appeared as a native indian woman in guadalupe mexico,

www.sancta.org/

Zombrex

djeddy wrote: »

Mary appeared as a native indian woman in guadalupe mexico,

www.sancta.org/

Why would she appear as a native American woman?

Doesn't the fact that the person saw a woman of their that ethnicity (I realise he was Spanish) suggest that the "vision" was a mistake/made up?

Phototoxin

Camelot wrote: »

As Anglicans we fully agree that the Virgin Mary is to be loved & adored by all, we just dont see the need to 'pray to her' (or worship her)! because we pray directly to God . . . I am not belitteling this RC practice, seeing as praying to the virgin Mary is one of the cornerstones o the Roman Catholic Church, but its also one of those differences between the Churches that makes our Christian Family all the more interesting and complex - if a little puzzling (to us Anglicans).

prayer =/= worship. Why do so many protestants confuse the two. Prayer means asking. The catholic view is that they ask mary to harrass god on their behalf.

However I see the wisdom in the protestant view of just doing it yourself as well. And imho too many catholics and a lot of the church places way too muhc empahsis on her.

Fanny Cradock

Phototoxin wrote: »

Prayer means asking.

I would have to disagree with this - at lease in part.

djeddy

Wicknight wrote: »

Why would she appear as a native American woman?

Doesn't the fact that the person saw a woman of their that ethnicity (I realise he was Spanish) suggest that the "vision" was a mistake/made up?

I hope not

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

(Jesus seemingly had short curly hair like black wool)

OK, I'm probably going to regret this, but I'll bite. Where do you get the idea that he had short curly hair like black wool?

djeddy

Wicknight wrote: »

Why would she appear as a native American woman?

Doesn't the fact that the person saw a woman of their that ethnicity (I realise he was Spanish) suggest that the "vision" was a mistake/made up?

(The visions look genuine)

The Mystery in Our Lady's eyes


"Bearded man" image in the right eye.
According to many scientists who have inspected the image, it seems that in her eyes, in both of them and in the precise location as reflected by a live human eye, could be seen many figures that have been extensively analyzed and seem to correspond to the shape and size of human figures located in front of the image.

In 1929, Alfonso Marcue, who was the official photographer of the old Basilica of Guadalupe in Mexico City, found what seemed to him to be a clear image of a bearded man reflected in the right eye of the Virgin. Initially he did not believe what was before his eyes. How could it be? A bearded man inside of the eyes of the Virgin?. After many inspections of many of his black and white photographs he had no doubts and decided to inform the authorities of the Basilica. He was told that time to keep complete silence about the discovery, which he did.
More than 20 years later, on May 29, 1951, Jose Carlos Salinas Chavez, examining a good photograph of the face, rediscovers the image of what clearly appears to be a bearded man reflected in the right eye of the Virgin, and locates it on the left eye too.


"Bearded man".
Since then, many people had the opportunity to inspect closely the eyes of the Virgin on the tilma, including more than 20 physicians, ophthalmologists.
The first one, on March 27, 1956, was Dr. Javier Torroella Bueno, MDS, a prestigious ophthalmologist. In what is the first report on the eyes of the image issued by a physician, he certifies what seems to be the presence of the triple reflection (Samson-Purkinje effect) characteristic of all live human eyes and states that the resulting images are located exactly where they are supossed to be according to such effect, and also that the distortion of the images agree with the curvature of the cornea.
The same year another ophthalmologist, Dr. Rafael Torrija Lavoignet, examined the eyes of the image with an ophthalmoscope in great detail. He observed the apparent human figure in the corneas of both eyes, with the location and distortion of a normal human eye and specially noted a unique appearance of the eyes: they look strangely "alive" when examined.
Many other examinations by ophthalmologists have been done of the eyes of the image on the tilma after these first ones. With more or less details all agree with the conclusions of the ones mentioned above.



According to Dr. Tonsmann, from left to right we can see "the Indian", "bishop Zumarraga", the "translator", "Juan Diego showing the tilma" and below "the family".
A new and interesting kind of analysis of the eyes started in 1979, when Dr. Jose Aste Tonsmann, Ph D, graduated from Cornell University, while working in IBM scanned at very high resolutions a very good photograph, taken from the original, of the face on the tilma. After filtering and processing the digitized images of the eyes to eliminate "noise" and enhance them, he reports he made some astonishing discoveries: not only the "human bust" was clearly present in both eyes, but another human figures were seen as reflected in the eyes too.
Dr. Aste Tonsmann published his last studies on the eyes on the tilma in the book "El Secreto de sus Ojos", with complete details and photographs of his work . Perhaps one of the most interesting aspects of the studies is his conclusion that Our Lady of Guadalupe not only left us her miraculous image as proof of her apparition but some important messages too. These messages were hidden in the eyes on the image until our times, when new technologies would allow them to be discovered, when they are most necessary.
That would be the case with the image of a family in the center of the Virgin's eye, in times when families are under serious attack in our modern world. The image of various human figures that seem to constitute a family, including various children and a baby carried in the woman's back as used in the 16th century, appears in the center of the pupil, as shown in this great image of the right eye highlighting the family, generously provided by Dr. Tonsmann.

wolfsbane

kelly1 said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Hmm. So 1846 saw the loosing of Lucifer on the earth?
"In the year 1864 Lucifer, together with a great number of devils, will be loosed from hell; little by little they will abolish the faith, and that even in persons consecrated to God; they will so blind them, that without a special grace, these persons will take on the spirit of these evil angels; a number of religious houses will lose the faith entirely and cause many souls to be damned.
There is no doubt that there has been serious apostasy in the Church. The apostasy is certaily biblical and there was also something about Satan being loosed was there not?

The issue is, Was Satan loosed in 1846? Obviously not, since the world did not go into a marked change for the worse. The releasing of Satan in Revelation marks a short period of intense violence against the Church, cumulating in Christ's utter destruction of him and all who are wicked:
Revelation 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

In short, the prophesy given by the apparition was a false prophecy. That marks either the person who claimed to have seen it as a liar, or the apparition itself a demonic manifestation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
And it was Mary who gave the sabbath, not God?
I gave you six days to work, I kept the seventh for myself, and no one wishes to grant it to me.
I assumed Mary was quoting Dueteronomy. Of course God gave the sabbath.

OK, I'll agree that is a possibility - but very unclear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
And some new revelation about the identity of Antichrist:
"It will be at this time that the Antichrist will be born of a Hebrew nun, a false virgin who will be in communication with the ancient serpent, master of impurity; his father will be a bishop (Ev.). [We spell out the word "bishop" here. In the French text appear only the first two letters of évèque, the French word for bishop, but there is little doubt that this is the word they stand for, because in Mélanie's first draft of the message the whole word is spelled out.]

"At birth he will vomit blasphemies, he will have teeth; in a word, this will be the devil incarnate; he will utter terrifying cries, he will work wonders, he will live only on impurities. He will have brothers who, although not incarnate devils like himself, will be children of evil; at the age of twelve, they will be noted for the valiant victories they will win; soon they will each be at the head of armies, assisted by legions from hell.

I don't know about this. Does it contradict Scripture?

It goes beyond the Scripture. It also seems a tad ridiculous, the work of a superstitious mind: At birth he will vomit blasphemies, he will have teeth; live only on impurities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
You really believe this is of God, Noel?
I'm keeping an open mind.

Good. You will then feel free to check out my claim that it is a false prophecy, since 1846 was not the advent of Satan.

wolfsbane

Gareth37 wrote: »

But the Catholic Church accepts Our Lady and Our Lady's Rosary, something that kept faith alive in this country?

My point would be that the faith which it kept alive was not the faith of the New Testament church.

Nowhere there do we find the Christians praying to Mary, saying the Rosary, worshiping with altars and priests, incense, images, priestly robes, mitres, etc. Those are the marks of the pagan religions, which the Roman church gradually imported.

Was God obliged to accept this worship? No, for He makes it clear that any church that turns from the way and refuses to repent will be cast off. His church will continue with those who hold to His doctrine and precepts: See His message to the churches of Asia in Revelation chapters 2 and 3:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%202-3;&version=50;

kelly1

wolfsbane wrote: »

.....worshiping with altars and priests, incense, images, priestly robes, mitres, etc. Those are the marks of the pagan religions, which the Roman church gradually imported.

You should try reading Revelations again!

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

OK, I'm probably going to regret this, but I'll bite. Where do you get the idea that he had short curly hair like black wool?

it was mentioned on this forum by a Christian poster a while back about the nonsense of the western paintings, but I can't remember the Biblical references used to back it up.

Zombrex

djeddy wrote: »

(The visions look genuine)

I'm not following ... what "image" are they referring to that has a reflection in the eyes?

djeddy

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm not following ... what "image" are they referring to that has a reflection in the eyes?

They are talking about the image of an indian woman and child,also other people,

The picture of them is on the website

www.sancta.org/intro.html - 8k

Zombrex

djeddy wrote: »

They are talking about the image of an indian woman and child,also other people,

The picture of them is on the website

www.sancta.org/intro.html - 8k

Seems more a case of "Man in the Moon", or the faces on Mars, than anything else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_in_the_Moon



I can see a gun to the right and side of the "bearded man" and to the right the face of a lizard.

Also the painting is of a European lady, when the claim was that she appeared as a native American.

wolfsbane

kelly1 said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
.....worshiping with altars and priests, incense, images, priestly robes, mitres, etc. Those are the marks of the pagan religions, which the Roman church gradually imported.
You should try reading Revelations again!

You are confusing the symbolic language used of heaven with the actual practices of the RCC on earth. The RCC has set up a priesthood, altars, incense, etc. that were unknown in the NT church.

They did so in rebellion against the plain teaching of the apostles that ALL Christans are priests, that the only altar we have is Jesus Christ's presence in heaven for us, and the only incense God accepts now is the prayers of the people of God.

Sofa_King Good

Gareth37 wrote: »

I think that it is about time that we recorded a list of the visions of Our Lady, the mother of Jesus, throughout the world.

In accordance with scripture she has converted many.

Lourdes
Medjugorje
Knock
Fatima
Cairns


Keep adding to the list.

Peckham

Gareth37

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

Peckham

That was a funny episode. Im afriad the Peckham one was a crying statue, not a vision. And the Catholic Church never did ratify it so I think there is a good chance that it may have been false