What have TK Maxx done?

Kotek Besar

Just briefly, I read in the Waterford Today yesterday that TK Max have been in trouble for (among other things) selling products that they are not permitted to?

What on earth could that be then?

Bards

benifa wrote: »

Just briefly, I read in the Waterford Today yesterday that TK Max have been in trouble for (among other things) selling products that they are not permitted to?

What on earth could that be then?

One word "Clothes" I.E comparison shopping , which is against the retail strategy for the City. The Co Co have signed up to this also

Kotek Besar

Bards wrote: »

One word "Clothes" I.E comparison shopping

I don't get it? TK Max is comparison shopping? But..it's just one shop. Help me out here - am I being entirely thick? How is TK Max comparison shopping? How are they different from any other clothes shop in town?

merlante

benifa wrote: »

I don't get it? TK Max is comparison shopping? But..it's just one shop. Help me out here - am I being entirely thick? How is TK Max comparison shopping? How are they different from any other clothes shop in town?

The idea is that they're trying to restrict comparison shopping to the city centre. Comparison shopping is shopping where you are not buying things for your survival but for higher value goods that you usually want to compare with other goods. In other words, you can compare clothes from different shops and buy the one that suits, so clothes buying is comparison shopping. If these shops are spread out around the city, it's bad for the city and it's very bad for the city centre. Only cities of 1 million+ people are supposed to be able to justify significant out of town *comparison* shopping. Cities of 50,000 shouldn't really have any at all. Imagine having to get into the car to go to the next shop?

It is the council's policy to clamp down on this sort of thing, which is why they shot down M&S on the outskirts of the city and tried to shoot down the Ferrybank shopping centre. The wisdom of the latter move is now becoming evident. Only shopping centres in the centre of large populations can be guaranteed survival in times such as these. We're going to see a lot of ghost malls around the country over the next few years -- didn't think the first one would be in Ferrybank though! (Just not enough population out there, and it was built as a cynical attempt to attract shoppers from Waterford city.)

Kotek Besar

Now I understand.. thanks merlante.

shapez

Shouldn't I, as a customer have the "choice" or "right" to purchase clothes where I wish within the city? Or is TK Maxx outside the city limits?

ex_infantry man

exactly consumers have the right to shop where they want and if that shop happens to be tk maxx then so be it but if it was,nt down to all the serial objectors then maybe tk maxx would have been in the city centre

durrus

I'm not sure the arguement could be better sumarised than Merlante has done. The irony in this case is that the development that TK Maxx is part of is actually in Waterford County, not City. The City objected to the development as it would threaten Waterford City Centre but local authority funding being what it is in this country, the County probably took the view that they needed the rates income so it went ahead.

It's understandable that people can't understand why there's such a big fuss about TKMaxx selling clothing on the outskirts of the city but the reality - as Merlante correctly pointed out - is that it is simply not sustainable for a city of Waterfords size to have that kind of outflow of footfall from the city centre. Ask any retailer in the city and you will be told very clearly that the retail spend in the city is significantly below normal levels. This is not all to do with TKMaxx of course - we are in a recession, after all - but it certainly is not good planning to have a clothes warehouse on the edge of a city drawing customers out of town.

Sully

So what, just refuse all large retailers since we cant fit them in the city center? Seems a bit mad to me.

Aquos76

So tell me, how did Next get planning permission on the outskirts of the city so?

Trotter

I like avoiding the city centre. I live closer to TK Maxx than I do the city centre. I think I should have the same choice as anyone in the city when I save up my pocket money for trendy undies. TK Maxx is a great place. I'm all for the out of town shopping experience. Waterford city centre is full of intimidating folk who make the 'shopping experience' pretty negative. I don't like shopping in city centres and I much prefer to drive somewhere with a list of things I need and buy them there.

Having said that, I'm sure the new shopping centre will improve the feel of the city centre. I wish JR Square was full of little cafes and it's crying out for little log cabin stalls that sell arty crafty things like in Krakow at easter time.

Still.. after 10 mins in Waterford, they'd have psd up on the log cabins, written abuse all over them, and they'd be closed due to lack of business.

I'd love to see the day where a visit to Waterford city centre is a nice experience, and I can go to relax and take in the atmosphere. If I want to do my annual shopping trip then I can go to TK Maxx and buy all my Christmas presents.

I'm delighted to see the new centre get the go ahead. I hope it has the effect of changing my outlook on the city centre as it is now, i.e. a place I don't like to be.

durrus

Sully wrote: »

So what, just refuse all large retailers since we cant fit them in the city center? Seems a bit mad to me.

So we just allow all large retailers to set up on the outskirts of the city and watch the city centre die? Seems a bit mad to me.

Trotter

durrus wrote: »

So we just allow all large retailers to set up on the outskirts of the city and watch the city centre die? Seems a bit mad to me.

There's no room for large retailers in Waterford city centre. You'd prefer them not to be here at all than go to the outskirts where they have the space they need?

durrus

Trotter wrote: »

There's no room for large retailers in Waterford city centre. You'd prefer them not to be here at all than go to the outskirts where they have the space they need?

Actually I'm all for large retailers coming to Waterford - even if that means they set up on the outskirts PROVIDED that the products they sell make sense for out of town locations (i.e White goods, furniture etc). So, I welcome Harvey Norman, B & Q, Halfords etc. What's different about TKMaxx (And I'd feel the same way about M&S) is that by selling clothing (not to mention bars of chocolate, perfume gifts sets etc) you are placing a comparison store into a retail warehouse setting. The reason why this is not a good idea is very this: city centres rely on customers walking from store to store to 'compare' products and make purchases. If you provide a large 'magnet' store on the outskirts you will draw a large level of footfall out of the city and in a city of our size that will have a devestating impact on the viability of that city centre.

There are many examples throughout the UK and the US where failure to protect the town/city centres has resulted in the so called 'doughnut effect' - dead centres surrounded by ring roads full of warehouse retailers. If that's what we want, then fair enough, that is what we will get.

durrus

Aquos76 wrote: »

So tell me, how did Next get planning permission on the outskirts of the city so?

Other people may know the exact ins and outs of this but my understanding is that Next somehow slipped through and that Waterford City Council would acknowledge - though maybe not publicy - that it was a mistake. This is probably a simplistic illustration but the effect of the huge success of Next Ardkeen has been the closure of Next in the city centre so now there is one less piece of retail choice in the city centre. Multiply that out and you get lots of empty shops.

Not The Real Scarecrow

Apparently it has to do with the planning permission.The council can't legally stop a shop opening up in a designated area , however where tk maxx is built was given planning permission based on a certain amount of rules( not sure the exact ones but something alng the lines of industrial zoning allowing trade stores open).Something as well about an entrance that wasn't on the original plans as well.
I personally have absolutely no objection to retail shops opening outside the city centre and I don't feel that the council should have a right to control these things(within reason) as it goes against competition laws.In my opinion the centre has become a dump because of poor planning and inflated rents and thats mainly because of the idiots that are in council.I feel sorry for the business's that suffer because of this and for Waterford in general, because what once was a lovely centre is quickly becoming a ghost town.I guarantee it won't be long before you see the likes of dunnes and pennys moving out of the centre.The new retail centre is going to **** up the whole place, guaranteed it will generate work for developers and builders but in the long run I think the town will suffer.More than likely we will see an exodus from city square to the new one leaving it empty like trinity hall before hand and broad street centre.All one has to do is look around the town and see the amount of empty shops there are.Do people seriously think that building more shops are the answer when obviously business's have no interest in opening in waterford.

edmund_f

wonder if it is possible that all the extra retail square footage will drive competition and reduce rents, perhaps allowing more diverse shops (and cafe's and bars etc) to open in the city center. Keep all the 'mega marts' to the outside of the city?

Not The Real Scarecrow

Think that would be fantastic if that would happen, and I reckon if things are allowed take their natural course it might.However if the council start arsing around I reckon they'll just scare offany businedd from opening in waterfors full stop.I'mnot a big supporter of the new one in town but I am happy that it did get the permission granted as I think it sends out a good message to other business's that might invest in waterford,that they can come here and not have one idiot ruining there chances of opening up because he objects to every thing.

Trotter

durrus wrote: »

city centres rely on customers walking from store to store to 'compare' products and make purchases. If you provide a large 'magnet' store on the outskirts you will draw a large level of footfall out of the city and in a city of our size that will have a devestating impact on the viability of that city centre.

The doghnut effect only happens in places where the city centre relies on shopping as the only attraction. If the city centre is a nice place to be, not just to shop, but a nice place to be, then people will still come. Restricting out of town development forces people into a city centre where they'd rather not be.

Taking Waterford for example, like I said earlier, I think its bleak, run down, and unappealling. Fine, forcing shops to locate there fills the city centre with people, but how many are there because they have no other choice, and how many are there because they want to be?

Once the design and planning of the city reflects the potential as a nice place to spend time, it won't matter where TK Maxx is because people will still want the nice experience of shopping "in town".

Restricting out of town development in Waterford's case is just papering over the cracks. I and many people I know don't like the city centre. I still wont like it if TK Maxx is plonked into it.

Make it an interesting, vibrant, comfortable location, and watch the punters come in.

For now, TK Maxx is great because it means I don't have to go near JR Square with its black marble seats, burger wrappers, greyness, and general 1980 feel to it.

I earn my money and the bottom line is its I'm free to spend it where I like. Out of town shopping is fantastic in my opinion. It'll keep me busy until someone turns the city centre back into a place where I'm comfortable to spend time. I certainly won't be railroaded back into the place by people who think I should spend my money there through some sort of obligation to the land of the blaa.

When the city centre provides something more appealling than a comfortable 30 minute wander in TK Maxx and a look around Harvey Norman, I'll go there and I'll bring my wallet.

The city is not attractive to a large section of the population.

jaxy999

I haven't been in Waterford City Centre shopping since last August because it's so much hassle. By the time I drive into the town, find a parking space, look for a parking meter, pay my money, go back to the car to leave parking slip on dashboard, then walk down into town - (in the rain usually :mad:) I'm just weary & want to go home! Last night I drove out to Next in Ardkeen & had a very pleasant time wandering around and the car is only parked outside the door, quite literally !
I shop in Dungarvan rather than Waterford, everything is compact and it's a nice town, you've got the quay, which on a nice day it feels like your in France, with the anchor & moorings pubs and the choice of eateries, compare Dungarvan quay to the quay in Waterford, ugh!!
Hopefully the new shopping centre will bring people back into the city centre. In D'garvan the new SC has attracted people from elsewhere and increased numbers shopping in the town overall (at least I think, I read it in some article somewhere, don't quote me on it)

Traumadoc

Yea wexford town has a much nicer vibe to it, Waterford center apart from the book center and la boheme has a rundown appearance,

mayordenis

The emphasis 100% has to be on rejuvinating the city, not on punishing the consumers and businesses that offer excellent competition, If tkmaxx was in the city I guarantee I still wouldn't look around with what's on offer, especially with that dive known as debenhams.

abouttobebanned

A good quote I read recently on another forum

" I wish we were just a town, because then we'd be a great town rather than a pretty poor city"

shapez

Folks, 2 years ago we were crying for large retailers to come from all the other cities and set up shop in Waterford. They have come, and not 6 months here, people are having second thoughts about it!!

I am pretty sure alot of people will agree with this... How many times have you had to pull and drag an Argos item about 1 mile before trying to balance it beside the car, open the car or boot and then shove the box into it??

This is a pratical example of why large retailers are outside the city!! Easy access, parking and very convienent!!

durrus

For sure, Argos is a classic example of the kind of retailer ideally suited to out of town locations for the very reason you have stated. TKMaxx is a different proposition because the mainstay of their business is comparison fashion retail. It is this aspect of their business which makes them so damaging when they are placed in a retail park. Among the different comments posted in relation to this thread, people have stated that the city centre is not attractive - can't disagree; that City Square is dated - can't disagree; that much of the shopping experience in the centre of Waterford leaves a lot to be desired - can't disagree. But it cannot, MUST NOT be a solution that we abandon a strategy of renewal for the city centre and just allow large scale 'department stores' (which in a sense is what TKMAXX is) to locate wily nily around the outskirts of the city. This isn't about denying consumers the right to spend their money wherever they wish, it's about thinking beyond the now and considering what kind of city we want Waterford to be for the future. A city where all the retail is on the outskirts? Without decent retail in the city centre you will lose (or have no hope of attracting) all that goes with it: interesting independent shops that stock something a bit different; cafes, daytime bars, restaurants. A city without footfall cannot sustain these types of businesses. We will be left with a version of Los Angeles, where you will go everywhere by car, even for a coffee.

decies

durrus wrote: »

For sure, Argos is a classic example of the kind of retailer ideally suited to out of town locations for the very reason you have stated. TKMaxx is a different proposition because the mainstay of their business is comparison fashion retail. It is this aspect of their business which makes them so damaging when they are placed in a retail park. Among the different comments posted in relation to this thread, people have stated that the city centre is not attractive - can't disagree; that City Square is dated - can't disagree; that much of the shopping experience in the centre of Waterford leaves a lot to be desired - can't disagree. But it cannot, MUST NOT be a solution that we abandon a strategy of renewal for the city centre and just allow large scale 'department stores' (which in a sense is what TKMAXX is) to locate wily nily around the outskirts of the city. This isn't about denying consumers the right to spend their money wherever they wish, it's about thinking beyond the now and considering what kind of city we want Waterford to be for the future. A city where all the retail is on the outskirts? Without decent retail in the city centre you will lose (or have no hope of attracting) all that goes with it: interesting independent shops that stock something a bit different; cafes, daytime bars, restaurants. A city without footfall cannot sustain these types of businesses. We will be left with a version of Los Angeles, where you will go everywhere by car, even for a coffee.

Well said thank god somebody with a bit of sense around here.I also find it fasinatiing the attraction of TKMaxx to me its 95% rubbish with a odd bargain to be got usually in the wrong size lol.Just get the feeling that waterford people set their sights to low sometimes,it will be interesting to see how newgate centre takes off,one things for sure the same people will still be going to new york to shop :rolleyes:

Trotter

durrus wrote: »

Without decent retail in the city centre you will lose (or have no hope of attracting) all that goes with it: interesting independent shops that stock something a bit different; cafes, daytime bars, restaurants. A city without footfall cannot sustain these types of businesses.

I actually believe its the other way around. I think if you want these big shops to set up in the city, you need to first sort out the bleak atmosphere first. The first thing I would do would be remove the seating in city square, encourage small bars and cafés to set up there, and work out from that.

decies wrote: »

the same people will still be going to new york to shop :rolleyes:

Why so patronising to people who go to New York? I think you'll find the "shop in town at all costs" mentality, would have a minority of support.

So, given that you have something against people who shop in NY, can I ask have you been to NY to shop before?

I have and I got a hell of a lot more for my money than I'll get sifting through the socks on the floor in some of the "shops" in Waterford.

Typhoon.

i think something has to be done about the driving into the centre of town

at the moment its a nightmare...the only reason i'll drive in is if its sat morning before 9:30am

the main throughfares are Conduit lane and Lady lane....these are lanes for flips sake...they shouldn't be carrying all this trafffic...I think the council might have to consider reopening Barronstrand street...maybe one way


I dunno though...its kinda the one thing the centre has going for it...i mean spraoi time for instance...red square is deadly then

a few cafe bars would be nice there...nice to be able to sit and watch the hustle n bustle in the centre