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MA and Boxing Hand Wraps for training

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,856 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    cowzerp wrote: »
    My technigue is fine thanks mark, i'm training to fight with my hands wrapped not for on the street so dont know what your on about! even the best boxers will hit wrong sometimes, why risk it in training? They dont make you use bad technique, they just support you for when you do, which will happen sometimes. unfortunately.

    I wasnt trying to imply anything about you technique at all, I was only asking in a hypothetical sense. It just seems to me, that even if someone where to start off every training session with perfect technique, they would be more inclined to let the technique slip over time because they have the wraps to protect their hands when they do. Okay, you don't need to train all the time without wraps, but I would think it useful to be able to do a training session without relying on them to keep your hands safe.
    Mairt wrote:
    You know what John Wayne said about drinking whiskey and water?...

    "When I drink whiskey I drink whiskey, when I drink water I drink water. I never drink them together"..

    When train your back only to fail because your grip strenght fails you?.

    What I'm saying is for grip strenght, train grip strengh. For back training... you get the picture I'm sure.

    Ok, yeah sure, dont use exercises made for strengthening your back to strengthen your grip. So then why not just strengthen your grip strength in line with your back? Why have your back strength be almost useless because your grip strength cant keep up?
    Mairt wrote:
    Would you jog in your bare feet?.

    Depends on why I was jogging. If I was to jog bare foot, it would hurt at first, but eventually my feet would toughen up to it, and beyond blisters and calusses on my souls, their wouldn't be much damage.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    I wasnt trying to imply anything about you technique at all, I was only asking in a hypothetical sense. It just seems to me, that even if someone where to start off every training session with perfect technique, they would be more inclined to let the technique slip over time because they have the wraps to protect their hands when they do. Okay, you don't need to train all the time without wraps, but I would think it useful to be able to do a training session without relying on them to keep your hands safe.
    Maybe once in a while for a change. But I think the hazards would outweigh the benefits. Someone in a boxing or thai gym should be able to hit awful hard after a while and even if they strike wih perfect technique, they may well damage their hands.
    Ok, yeah sure, dont use exercises made for strengthening your back to strengthen your grip. So then why not just strengthen your grip strength in line with your back? Why have your back strength be almost useless because your grip strength cant keep up?
    Because your back and grip don't always work together.

    Depends on why I was jogging. If I was to jog bare foot, it would hurt at first, but eventually my feet would toughen up to it, and beyond blisters and calusses on my souls, their wouldn't be much damage.
    Wrong. Your feet may even be gloriously calloused afterwards but your knees, ankles and hips would suffer from the continued impact. This isn't the depths of the jungle anymore with soft mud and leaves underfoot, which is what our limbs were designed to run on. Concrete, tarmac and even compacted pitches will do enough damage to render you pretty crippled after a few weeks of barefoot running.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    Roper wrote: »
    Concrete, tarmac and even compacted pitches will do enough damage to render you pretty crippled after a few weeks of barefoot running.

    Where do you get this information from? I'm not saying that you're wrong by the way, just that martial artists have been running barefoot for centuries. And nowadays people even run marathons barefoot. Surely someone would have realized by now if it was causing damage.

    Just to continue this post, I've been looking online for info on barefoot running and there seems to be a lot of people not only doing it but who believe that there are great benefits to be gained from it. Here's some points made
    Better proprioception - you know where your feet are relative to the ground

    Landing softer - you learn to land more softly, thus having to absorb less impact

    Midfoot strike - you have a natural tendency to strike with the midfoot, rather then the heel, which is commonly believed to be more efficient. Almost all elite runners run in this manner.

    Better efficiency - you’re more able to convert the energy from the shock of landing from one step into forward motion for the next

    Stronger feet muscles

    Injury prevention

    What are your thoughts on these points Roper?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    Where do you get this information from?
    From running 40k a month
    I'm not saying that you're wrong by the way, just that martial artists have been running barefoot for centuries. And nowadays people even run marathons barefoot. Surely someone would have realized by now if it was causing damage.
    I'm sure they do. People also wear tinfoil on their head to stop the government from reading their brainwaves. Look at the Olympic marathon this year and tell me how many people were wearing runners and how many were barefoot.
    , I've been looking online for info on barefoot running and there seems to be a lot of people not only doing it but who believe that there are great benefits to be gained from it.
    There's also some articles on urine therapy but I won't be drinking my own piss anytime soon.
    Better proprioception - you know where your feet are relative to the ground
    That's not what procioception is for a start.
    Landing softer - you learn to land more softly, thus having to absorb less impact
    probably because you're afraid to land hard. You'll probably run slower too.
    Midfoot strike - you have a natural tendency to strike with the midfoot, rather then the heel, which is commonly believed to be more efficient. Almost all elite runners run in this manner.
    yes they do, in runners.
    Better efficiency - you’re more able to convert the energy from the shock of landing from one step into forward motion for the next
    I'd have to see scientific studies that less energy is consumed barefoot than in runners. Until then, I'd have to call bullshít.
    Stronger feet muscles
    at the expense of?
    Injury prevention
    such as? Again, science please.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    As I said I am not saying that you are wrong Roper, just that with so many people running barefoot there must be something more to it. I'm going to look for scientific info and will post what I find.

    Peace.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,995 ✭✭✭Tim_Murphy


    As I said I am not saying that you are wrong Roper, just that with so many people running barefoot there must be something more to it. I'm going to look for scientific info and will post what I find.

    Peace.
    Any number of people swear by any number of 'alternative' medicines and therapies, that doesn't mean they are not bullsh^t. Just because something is popular or trendy doesn't mean it has any validity.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    As I said I am not saying that you are wrong Roper, just that with so many people running barefoot there must be something more to it. I'm going to look for scientific info and will post what I find.

    Peace.

    As a qualified personal trainer, my professional opinion is that running barefoot on solid ground is dangerous and the only benefit is that your skin might toughen up.

    The bit in bold i,ve wanted to say for years, now im going to feel like a doctor for the day!

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,856 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Roper wrote: »
    probably because you're afraid to land hard. You'll probably run slower too.

    Why would landing harder make you run faster?
    Roper wrote: »
    I'd have to see scientific studies that less energy is consumed barefoot than in runners. Until then, I'd have to call bullshít.
    Roper wrote: »
    such as? Again, science please.

    Found this review article on barefoot running, with a load of references on the different aspects of barefoot running. It admits that plenty more studies need to be done, but early studies support that barefoot running requires less energy (less weight to carry by your leg), and areas with populations that are generally unshod seem to have fewer injuries.

    EDIT: I'm not necessarily supporting barefoot running, but I know that I like to investigate peoples claims before calling them bullsh*t simply because they're different to mine


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    Why would landing harder make you run faster?



    Found this review article on barefoot running, with a load of references on the different aspects of barefoot running. It admits that plenty more studies need to be done, but early studies support that barefoot running requires less energy (less weight to carry by your leg), and areas with populations that are generally unshod seem to have fewer injuries.

    Actually I just found that article too and was going to post it. Thanks Mark.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf



    Ok, yeah sure, dont use exercises made for strengthening your back to strengthen your grip. So then why not just strengthen your grip strength in line with your back? Why have your back strength be almost useless because your grip strength cant keep up?



    Mark, that hardly makes sense at all.

    When I train my back I use straps on almost all my pulls. The aim is to isolate my back as best as I can. Even using straps your grips is getting an almighty workout without the risk of failing.

    I really don't bother training my grip in the gym, years ago I guess I might have. But there's really no need, and I'd be surprised if anyone here who grapples with the Gi had a weak grip.

    One great way to improve grip strenght is grip fighting whereby both fighters fight for grips, hold the grips for seconds (without throws) while the guy defending trys to break the grip in the time give, when the time is up you release grips and go again.

    But you know what, whatever you think works for you.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Depends on why I was jogging. If I was to jog bare foot, it would hurt at first, but eventually my feet would toughen up to it, and beyond blisters and calusses on my souls, their wouldn't be much damage.

    Not much damage, what are you - the heavy weight champion of Bangladesh?. :p

    Sorry Mark, but throw up whatever internet discussion you can find on jogging barefoot but I ain't buying into it, not a snowballs chance in hell.

    Ask any soldier about bad footwear, or serious hillwalker (or anyone putting any sort of load on their feet) would they contemplate training barefooted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭Niall Keane


    I would always encourage hand wraps, for the previously discussed safety reasons, but also what hasn't been mentioned yet, they save your gloves. Without wraps you'll get about 2 months out of gloves before they start smelling like something died.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,729 ✭✭✭Pride Fighter


    I would always encourage hand wraps, for the previously discussed safety reasons, but also what hasn't been mentioned yet, they save your gloves. Without wraps you'll get about 2 months out of gloves before they start smelling like something died.

    That is how mine smell, I have them nearly 7 years:).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    Why would landing harder make you run faster?
    You need to read that again. They were two sentences, talking about two seperate things. Hence the "too"

    Found this review article on barefoot running, with a load of references on the different aspects of barefoot running. It admits that plenty more studies need to be done, but early studies support that barefoot running requires less energy (less weight to carry by your leg), and areas with populations that are generally unshod seem to have fewer injuries.
    1 major hole in that theory is the likelihood that developing countries are less likely to have large populations of recreational runners. Do the unshod population in Haiti run many marathons do you think? I think they're probably concentrating on more important things.
    EDIT: I'm not necessarily supporting barefoot running, but I know that I like to investigate peoples claims before calling them bullsh*t simply because they're different to mine
    And I know that I have many, many kilometres of competitive and recreational running to call upon to call that bullshít. I've also worked with track athletes and coaches who would call bullshít too. One review article does not a science make. I actually have run a race barefoot before when I forgot my runners and got 300 metres into it and had to take the pair I got loaned off as they were hurting me. Came in 65th in a field of 85. Never did it again.

    Tell you what though here's an easy one for you. One of us will run a 20k tomorrow in runners and the other can run in their bare feet and see who is in greater pain afterwards. I bagsy the runners. Off you go.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    Roper wrote: »
    I actually have run a race barefoot before when I forgot my runners and got 300 metres into it and had to take the pair I got loaned off as they were hurting me. Came in 65th in a field of 85. Never did it again.

    Tell you what though here's an easy one for you. One of us will run a 20k tomorrow in runners and the other can run in their bare feet and see who is in greater pain afterwards. I bagsy the runners. Off you go.

    That's your experience Roper. I came across a good few cases where people have run marathons barefoot and did reasonably well. Also came across a barefoot hiking club. One thing that they all said though is that you have to train your feet into barefoot running gradually. You can't just go out and run 20k. If you do that you will get injuries.

    In conclusion to my part of this debate, as there's no real scientific evidence of the benefit of running barefoot I'm just going say to each their own.
    I don't like running barefoot myself. It hurts the souls and it's a pain in the hole really. However, for the sake of being open minded I'm not going to call it bull****.

    These things do look funky though. Barefoot running shoes...how does that work? :confused:

    glove-shoes.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,729 ✭✭✭Pride Fighter


    This argument reminds me of this
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_in_India

    India was a great footballing nation in the 40's and 50's, they could never translate that into success as they played barefoot- here is a quote from the link, The team qualified for the 1950 World Cup finals in Brazil, but could not appear as they still played in their bare feet at that time.
    Fifa imposed rules that they had to play in boots as they were worried India would upset the South American/European world cup junket and win the thing.

    Not that I'd ever run or play football in my bare feet.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    So what have we learned here?
    You can condition your hands and feet over time to the point where they are considerably tougher than your average hands and feet. If you don't choose to condition yourself to that level then you should wear protection such as gloves/wrapping/running when punching/running etc.

    There is generally no real need for this level of conditioning, but outrightly calling it bull**** is, well, bull****. I think if people could remeber that in general, this thread has accomplished alot.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    That's your experience Roper. I came across a good few cases where people have run marathons barefoot and did reasonably well. Also came across a barefoot hiking club.
    In what capacity have you come across people who've run barefoot marathons or barefoot hikers?
    There is generally no real need for this level of conditioning, but outrightly calling it bull**** is, well, bull****. I think if people could remeber that in general, this thread has accomplished alot.
    I can only give my perspective, and I still call bullshít based upon my experience.

    The internet can give you information to match and "prove" any hypothesis you fancy. Want to say barefoot running is better, do a search. Want to say that hitting a brick wall will make your hands tougher, do a search. Want to prove that there are aliens seeing your thoughts, do a search. I guarantee that you'll find "expert" opinion that will match you hypothesis. Open minded coaches who are in the trenches so to speak are the only opinions I really trust. Internet experts can go blow goats because I can guarantee that anyone defending barefoot running on this thread doesn't do it, they just found someone calling bullshít and got their back up.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    Sorry. What I meant was during my searching of the internet.

    Most notable were 2 brothers who came 1st and 2nd in a Marathon in New Mexico - runningbarefoot.org/?p=1281

    And barefoot hiking - www.barefoothikers.org/

    "Concrete, tarmac and even compacted pitches will do enough damage to render you pretty crippled after a few weeks of barefoot running." Martial artists have been jogging barefoot for decades, probably even longer. They'd have noticed by now if this were true. Whats more, the guys I mentioned above would not have been able to run a marathon barefoot let alone win it if it were true.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    So you're basing your argument on theory and not practise? Okay that's all I was asking.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    Roper wrote: »
    So you're basing your argument on theory and not practise? Okay that's all I was asking.

    I am basing it on practice, just not my own practice. The guys that won the marathon in New Mexico didn't win it in theory now did they? Just because something contradicts your experience does not make it BS.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    I am basing it on practice, just not my own practice. The guys that won the marathon in New Mexico didn't win it in theory now did they? Just because something contradicts your experience does not make it BS.
    The winner of every major marathon in the world this year, male and female, wore running shoes. Your anecdotal evidence of one race does not prove anything other than there are at least two competitive barefoot runners out there, which doesn't surprise me since I'd say that in a field of 11,000 in the Dublin marathon, I'd say we would probably find at least 2 who would perform better out of running shoes. By the same token, we'd probably find 2 who'd perform better wearing leggings instead of shorts, 2 who'd benefit from wearing a sweat band on their wrist, and 300 who'd benefit from better running shoes.

    In other words it proves exactly nothing.

    The reason I'm asking about theory versus practise is because of my point above re: internet evidence. I can come up with minority case examples to prove any point in the world with the wonder of the internet, but how would I really know unless I actually went out and tried it? As regards this argument, I have tried it, I've run cross country and a little track, I've been involved with coaching it, and I still run about 40-60k a month for the pure pleasure of it. As you've said yourself, you've based this argument on what people you've read about have been doing on the interweb. I wouldn't go arguing with a chef because I read a cookbook.

    Re: martial artists running barefoot. I saw thaiboxers run barefoot in thailand for their morning run, but that was because they couldn't afford runners. I've also seen guys punching iron girders, brick walls and wooden floors to toughen up their knuckles, even tried a bit of it myself until I realised it was retarded. I've also seen guys forcing themselves into stretches that they held for 10 minutes before getting up and kicking explosively 2 minutes later. In short, the martial arts are full of bad training methods, so I won't be convinced by barefoot running because martial artists have been doing it :).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    I have agreed that there isn't enough scientific proof of the benefits of barefoot running. I also believe that those who do compete effectively barefoot have been doing for most their lives.

    I only looked for internet evidence to contradict your point "Concrete, tarmac and even compacted pitches will do enough damage to render you pretty crippled after a few weeks of barefoot running." I have run barefoot and as I said martial artists have run barefoot for a long time. You may dismiss a lot of traditional training as rubbish but that doesn't mean it is. If barefoot running is as bad as you made out in this comment, it would have been abandoned a long time ago.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    I only looked for internet evidence to contradict your point "Concrete, tarmac and even compacted pitches will do enough damage to render you pretty crippled after a few weeks of barefoot running."
    Well as I said before you found evidence; internet evidence, anecdotal evidence, but the real proof of this pudding is if you went out and ran for a month in your bare feet.

    But you're not going to do that are you? Because you know you'd be fvcked afterwards.

    You and a couple of others got your back up because I called bullshít, and that's why you're arguing, because of my tone, not because you really believe that running barefoot is superior to running in the right shoes.

    Here's us both: http://xkcd.com/386/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,485 ✭✭✭✭Khannie


    Roper wrote: »
    Here's us both: http://xkcd.com/386/

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

    :D:D:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    i don't think that barefoot running is superior. I much prefer the comfort of my runners. I just think that you were far too quick to pull the BS card on something that has not yet been properly tested. One of my friends brought up the point tonight that the human foot would have hardly evolved to need artificial support.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    :D:D:D:D Posted at 5.15am. Didn't see the url I posted?

    Listen instead of chatting about the evolution of the human foot in the pub, you should go out and run a few k in my shoes, or, not in my shoes. You're deadly, I mean that, they should put what you have in a jar and sell it. The ability to argue without any basis for two days :D:D:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    Roper wrote: »
    :D:D:D:D Posted at 5.15am. Didn't see the url I posted?

    Listen instead of chatting about the evolution of the human foot in the pub, you should go out and run a few k in my shoes, or, not in my shoes. You're deadly, I mean that, they should put what you have in a jar and sell it. The ability to argue without any basis for two days :D:D:D

    :D Ye I posted that when I got in last night. There was basis to my argument, even if only I could see it. I really don't think running barefoot is as bad as you made out. And until I see some decent evidence both for and against it I'm just going to stay neutral.

    Peace.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 227 ✭✭mmaireland.com


    So... ...should I be wrapping my feet or not?


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