Brush up your Shakespeare/An thig leat Bearla?

cabinteelytom

'Foreign workers may have to prove English proficiency' is an article in today's www.irishexaminer.ie. Minister Lenihan floats this idea for 'migrant workers renewing their work permits'. So he wants your reactions.
How are they going to do that? Would it be through an expensive publicly funded standardised test in supervised conditions incorporating an accurate identity check? Perhaps like a driving test?; and you know how well that works-hooray for the public-sector. Will there be an appeals procedure? Will the Equality Commission have a veto on this initiative? Will this be in place of, or in addition to, a labour-needs test?
Comment:This faint-hearted, apologetic, piecemeal proposal will not rescue the Government's pretence to be building a 'knowledge economy' but is an example of the de Tocqueville principle, 'the most dangerous time for bad Government is when it tries to reform'.

Permabear

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cabinteelytom

The intra-EU movement of workers is a freedom of the EU club, from which we also benefit. We can go to Switzerland or Spain and get out the rain for a bit. But bringing in people from outside the EU is almost entirely down to our own national regulations (which are described by the arriveandthrive.com website as 'relatively straightforward and inexpensive' and our Green Card as 'probably the easiest work permit to secure in the western world today'.) That's nice isn't it?
Belatedly the Government is beginning to consider the long-term financial liability posed by temporarily-employed, low-skilled, poorly educated people in a State with generous welfare, health and education services, and, after the fact, thinking it should test them for basic communication skills.
This is such an admission of incompetence.
Only employers have benefitted from these regulations. The taxpayer is left with all the liabilities of poor policy.

O'Morris

donegalfella wrote:

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It's obvious that this is aimed at non-Europeans and therefore it only applies to people who don't have the same colour skin as us. I'm going to hold my breath until I hear that Mary Coughlan has reminded her cabinet colleague of this fact. She was quick to remind Leo Veradcar of it so I would expect her to be as vocal in condemning members of her own party for such blatant racism.

SeanW

It's about bloody time. I think the government has finally realised that "multiculturalism" is a joke - I saw positive steps when the new government introduced a Minister for Integration - we don't want to follow the mistakes of the U.K, Germany etc and bring in a whole bunch of people from far away who have no intention of ever integrating into our society and in some cases violently resist integration. Like this.

We have a right - and I would argue a duty to ourselves - to demand that anyone coming to our country to live should learn our language and attempt to integrate into our society.

Anything that helps this is proper order.

leninbenjamin

I think it's necessary tbh. I'm sure most of us have plenty of first hand experiences where language barriers have caused more headaches than they should, some of my worst experiences are after a visit to our local A&E where a doc. could barely understand my symptoms. Other experiences relate to our 3rd level institutions where some lecturers I've had could barely hold one to one conversation in English, let along make themselves clear enough to the hundred or so people in the theatre.

And for those who immediately jump to play the racism card, it's not racism it's common sense. particularly in relation to people who provide critical and skilled services where good communication is essential.

As for implementing it; why don't they just use something like TOEFL or equivalent to save exchequer expense like the Unis do (just demand a higher score than the Unis do currently)? leave it up to the applicants to sort out getting the qualification.

djpbarry

cabinteelytom wrote: »

The intra-EU movement of workers is a freedom of the EU club, from which we also benefit. We can go to Switzerland...

You fail at EU geography.

cabinteelytom wrote: »

Belatedly the Government is beginning to consider the long-term financial liability posed by temporarily-employed, low-skilled, poorly educated people in a State with generous welfare, health and education services...

We have generous welfare, health and education services? Are they hidden somewhere?

djpbarry

SeanW wrote: »

It's about bloody time. I think the government has finally realised that "multiculturalism" is a joke - I saw positive steps when the new government introduced a Minister for Integration - we don't want to follow the mistakes of the U.K, Germany etc and bring in a whole bunch of people from far away who have no intention of ever integrating into our society and in some cases violently resist integration. Like this.

Indeed. I estimate that improved proficiency in the English language among the immigrant population should save countless young women's lives. Or was there another point to linking to that story?

I've asked this on several threads before and I don't believe I've ever received a response, but I'll try again; what exactly is "integration"?

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Finally I might be able to order my subway in under 2 minutes.

dsmythy

O'Morris wrote: »

It's obvious that this is aimed at non-Europeans and therefore it only applies to people who don't have the same colour skin as us. I'm going to hold my breath until I hear that Mary Coughlan has reminded her cabinet colleague of this fact. She was quick to remind Leo Veradcar of it so I would expect her to be as vocal in condemning members of her own party for such blatant racism.

Dunno, there's a lot of white people in Georgia as well as <enter non-english speaking predominantly white country not in the EU>.

If you want to cut down on imported workers and you can't do it to EU workers then you can only target non-EU workers. There's no other way!Coughlan was wrong claiming racism against Varadkar and would be wrong doing the same in this case. If the EU freedom of movement didn't exist then they would be targeted more since they make up the big majority of imported workers. But it does, and here we are with this proposal.

CDfm

Whats wrong with it - the PC crowd are too sensitive on these issues.

Id go further and have a proficiency test in Irish. Forget Skakespeare read Peig Sayers and live in the Blaskets for a year to earn citizenship.

Then they will appreciate it.

dsmythy

djpbarry wrote: »

Indeed. I estimate that improved proficiency in the English language among the immigrant population should save countless young women's lives. Or was there another point to linking to that story?

I've asked this on several threads before and I don't believe I've ever received a response, but I'll try again; what exactly is "integration"?

It's probably like a sort of anti-multiculturalism although multiculturalism and integration are often mentioned in the same breath.

To me it is the attempted process, with contributions from both sides, to get a long to total term migrant and the children of said migrant to fit a particular social paradigm, which states roughly (in Ireland's case), "The subject identifies as being primarily Irish and is identified by the majority of others as being primarily Irish".

The initial migrant for me has a low chance of fitting this profile compared with the child of the migrant whom i think in the right environment and with the correct policies has a very high chance of gaining that level of Irish identity.

What exactly is this government's idea of integration anyway?

djpbarry

CDfm wrote: »

Id go further and have a proficiency test in Irish.

You might want to start with the 90% of the native population who can’t speak the language.

dsmythy wrote: »

It's probably like a sort of anti-multiculturalism although multiculturalism and integration are often mentioned in the same breath.

And both are, at best, rather vague concepts.

dsmythy wrote: »

To me it is the attempted process, with contributions from both sides, to get a long to total term migrant and the children of said migrant to fit a particular social paradigm, which states roughly (in Ireland's case), "The subject identifies as being primarily Irish and is identified by the majority of others as being primarily Irish".

First part of that is fine, but I don’t see why migrants should have to consider themselves Irish. I myself would have more of an affiliation with Dublin than I would with Ireland. Besides, if an Irish person emigrates, there’s no way that they’re going to adopt the nationality of the country that they emigrate to, so I’m not sure why immigrants to Ireland should be expected to “swap” nationalities.

On the whole English-language issue, obviously it makes sense that immigrants can communicate with others, but on the other hand, I don’t think immigrants are going to get terribly far without it, particularly in the long term, so most will take it upon themselves to learn, hence the boom in English language schools. Personally, I think the problem is being blown out of proportion; I can’t say that I have problems communicating with non-Irish people in shops, cafes, restaurants or wherever. Sure you could travel to just about any city in Europe and the chances are that staff in the service industries will be able to communicate through English, at least at a basic level.

Besides, even without a language proficiency test, I can’t imagine it would be terribly easy to obtain a work permit without being able to speak English?

podge79

It's all well and good attempting to force migrants to learn the language but it's all pointless if the nation - not just the govt - does not accept them positively and make concrete efforts to help them into settling into a new life here.

Migrants are not going to become part of the native community if they are all "ghettoised" together in areas and forgotten about, mistreated, misused exploited.

If we expect them to integrate/assimilate into our society we must also take into account customs and traditions from where they come and respect them - within the certain contexts of our society (obviously).

But it into perspective we would have same difficulties going to another country to live - we would learn the language and 'integrate' - but it would be difficult at first and would take time.

CDfm

djpbarry wrote: »

You might want to start with the 90% of the native population who can’t speak the language.
And both are, at best, rather vague concepts.
First part of that is fine, but I don’t see why migrants should have to consider themselves Irish. I myself would have more of an affiliation with Dublin than I would with Ireland. Besides, if an Irish person emigrates, there’s no way that they’re going to adopt the nationality of the country that they emigrate to, so I’m not sure why immigrants to Ireland should be expected to “swap” nationalities.

Thats all very fine - but consider this - if I go to a dinner party I dont embarrass my host or I wont be invited back, if I go to a club Idont start a fight or I will be thrown out and barred or if I go to a church I dont light up a ciggerette and singing Slayer Satanist songs. Its just not on.

Immigrants are the same - they need to assimilate.

If you go to a country you are a guest. In the US if you become a citizen you have to swear allegience to the flag. And I agree thats the US but we should expect migrants to be good "citizens".

I have Sri Lankan friends who retain their identity and support their national team at football and cricket. But they also support their county team at football. Thats them I wouldnt expect that from everyone.

There is nothing wrong with any of that but I would expect people to take some interest in their community and show respect for its laws and traditions.

O'Morris

dsmythy wrote:

Coughlan was wrong claiming racism against Varadkar and would be wrong doing the same in this case.

She could at least try to be consistent though.

djparry wrote:

I myself would have more of an affiliation with Dublin than I would with Ireland.

And bhfuil tu ag togail an urine? No real Dubliner would ever say such a thing.

djpbarry wrote:

Besides, if an Irish person emigrates, there’s no way that they’re going to adopt the nationality of the country that they emigrate to, so I’m not sure why immigrants to Ireland should be expected to “swap” nationalities.

That's a very good point and it's something that people such as myself have been saying all along. The idea that immigrants are just going to abandon their nationality and their former allegiances and that we'll all become one big happy 'New Irish' family after a generation is pure fantasy.

Permabear

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Permabear

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djpbarry

CDfm wrote: »

Thats all very fine - but consider this - if I go to a dinner party I dont embarrass my host or I wont be invited back, if I go to a club Idont start a fight or I will be thrown out and barred or if I go to a church I dont light up a ciggerette and singing Slayer Satanist songs. Its just not on.

Immigrants are the same - they need to assimilate.

So if immigrants don’t start fights in clubs and don’t smoke in churches, then they are deemed to have assimilated?

CDfm wrote: »

If you go to a country you are a guest.

I disagree. I’ve lived abroad in the past and I regarded myself as a resident, not a guest. I was paying taxes to the host countries (when some of the locals were not) so I certainly did not feel as though I was “visiting”; I was an active member of society.

O'Morris wrote: »

No real Dubliner would ever say such a thing.

One just did.

O'Morris wrote: »

The idea that immigrants are just going to abandon their nationality and their former allegiances and that we'll all become one big happy 'New Irish' family after a generation is pure fantasy.

That’s not what I said at all; you’re deliberately twisting my words. What I’m saying is I don’t believe it is necessary for someone to consider themselves Irish in order for them to be a valuable member of society in this country. Just because a minority of the population consider themselves to be, say, Polish rather than Irish, it doesn’t mean the whole country is going to descend into chaos. I could decide tomorrow that I’m going to be Argentine rather than Irish; what difference would it make?

donegalfella wrote: »

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Oh, I know. Some of my family and friends are US citizens, but they do not necessarily consider themselves American. If asked where they are from, they will reply with Ireland, Pakistan, Britain or wherever.

Permabear

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Permabear

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CDfm

donegalfella wrote: »

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Brendan Behan wasnt illiterate - I know you will say James Joyce but he had trouble with grammar and spelling so he wouldnt be in the running as greatest writter of all time.

Permabear

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CDfm

donegalfella wrote: »

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Brendan Behan Is one of the greatest writers of all time. John B. Keane another.

Shakespeare - nah - cant stand him. Joyce is low grade porn masquerading as high brow literature. Even his publishing house Shakespeare and Co published porn as did many french publishers of that era.

Cant see why foreign nationals wouldnt be able to recognise a cupla focail or the National Anthem and react appropriately when it is played. Its just good manners really.

Really - we should expect migrants who come to live here to be law abiding etc - and just like the USA does we should put some thought and value into it.

Permabear

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CDfm

donegalfella wrote: »

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To my shame Ive read them.

Beckett is bad but more action packed than Ibsen - who is plain boring. Sean O'Casey or Brecht are streets ahead.

Yeats - what can I say - Maude has a lucky escape from that lovesick puppy.

I stand by my choice and add Andy McNab as a true giant in literature.

donegalfella

donegalfella wrote: »

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Foreigners are in fact learing Irish in increasing numbers, Gaelchultur , in Dublin, now have 2 seperate classes per week, for foreigners, with no previous knowledge of the language.

http://www.gaelchultur.com/index.php?view_course_details=true&course_id=100208&tid=4&lang=ga

even a few years ago, attending an advanced class Irish language class, in the class was an african lad, whoose daughter was attending a Gaelscoil, a Czech guy, who now works through Irish in DCU, and an English girl, who became a primary school teacher, after getting honours in Irish in the leaving cert, (and developing a very strong Donegal accent)

I remember going for a pint with the African guy, and meeting some pals, and much to their embarrasment having to switch to English so they could understand.

djpbarry

Deleted User wrote: »

Foreigners are in fact learing Irish in increasing numbers, Gaelchultur , in Dublin, now have 2 seperate classes per week, for foreigners, with no previous knowledge of the language.

The point is that it would be ridiculous to make proficiency in the Irish language a requirement for citizenship. Hell, 25% of the population are functionally illiterate of English, never mind Irish.

What percentage of the non Irish population, in Ireland is "functionally illiterate of English"?

CDfm

djpbarry wrote: »

The point is that it would be ridiculous to make proficiency in the Irish language a requirement for citizenship. Hell, 25% of the population are functionally illiterate of English, never mind Irish.

Just because your multi-cultural doesnt mean everyone else is.

Well if they are such an addition to our country they should have no problem mastering a bit or at least knowing we have a national anthem- what it sounds like -and know that it is customary to stand quitely not sit during it and not to speak. That would get you kicked out of the Portabello Hotel- where they take things like that seriously.

I dont know where you get your 25% functionally illiterate from but I assume its meant to amuse. Illiteracy is not funny and you should know better.

CDfm

Deleted User wrote: »

What percentage of the non Irish population, in Ireland is "functionally illiterate of English"?

the CIA puts Irish literacy rates at 99%

The OECD have a literacy survey which says that 1 in 4 adults between 16 & 64 have problems doing things such as reading a bottle of aspirin.

In Navan - if they tested filing out a bookie slip and checking winnings that would drop dramaticaly.

But still its a cruel jibe to make fun of the uneducated Ireland wasnt always as well of as it is now.

CDfm

CDfm wrote: »

the CIA puts Irish literacy rates at 99%

The OECD have a literacy survey which says that 1 in 4 adults between 16 & 64 have problems doing things such as reading a bottle of aspirin.

In Navan - if they tested filing out a bookie slip and checking winnings that would drop dramaticaly.

But still its a cruel jibe to make fun of the uneducated Ireland wasnt always as well of as it is now.

Would agree, but Mr Barry was very quick to say that 25% of the Irish population was "functionally illiterate of English", just interested , to know what he thought the similar percentage for the non Irish population was.

djpbarry

Deleted User wrote: »

What percentage of the non Irish population, in Ireland is "functionally illiterate of English"?

I don’t know, but immigration does not seem to have much of an impact on the percentage. A report from 2001 suggests that “nearly a quarter of the population is functionally illiterate”:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2001/0721/01072100180.html

Not much change in the last seven years:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0811/1218232683254.html

CDfm wrote: »

Just because your multi-cultural doesnt mean everyone else is.

Eh?

CDfm wrote: »

Well if they are such an addition to our country they should have no problem mastering a bit or at least knowing we have a national anthem…

Don’t worry, I’m sure everyone knows Ireland has a national anthem.

CDfm wrote: »

…and know that it is customary to stand quitely not sit during it and not to speak. That would get you kicked out of the Portabello Hotel- where they take things like that seriously.

Em, ok. Got an axe to grind, have we?

CDfm wrote: »

I dont know where you get your 25% functionally illiterate from…

See above.

CDfm

djpbarry wrote: »

Em, ok. Got an axe to grind, have we?
.

Yup - poking fun at the illiterate is a cheap shot. Ive a post grad -so its not personal - but it did come accross as very superior- gratuitously so.

Not all Ireland is sophisticated and worldly and its only a gereration since we got full time secondary education. The resources and the tradition of education was minimal.THankfully it isnt now- but it shouldnt diminish them.

There are loads of people with ordinary jobs - say stonemasons, people working in bloodstock, horseracing,greyhounds, fisheries, assembly lines etc.Who dont have the opportunity or need to use their literacy skills. Its their taxes that paid for the education system that we had and have.

djpbarry

CDfm wrote: »

Yup - poking fun at the illiterate is a cheap shot.

Who was poking fun?

djpbarry

djpbarry wrote: »

I don’t know, but immigration does not seem to have much of an impact on the percentage. A report from 2001 suggests that “nearly a quarter of the population is functionally illiterate”:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2001/0721/01072100180.html

Not much change in the last seven years:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0811/1218232683254.html



For once, you are right, you don't know.
the Irish Times piece, appears to be the work of a lazy journo, who quotes out of date stats, no more.

CDfm

djpbarry wrote: »

Who was poking fun?

It came accross that way. I dont think I was the only one that read it that way.

dsmythy

djpbarry wrote: »

First part of that is fine, but I don’t see why migrants should have to consider themselves Irish. I myself would have more of an affiliation with Dublin than I would with Ireland. Besides, if an Irish person emigrates, there’s no way that they’re going to adopt the nationality of the country that they emigrate to, so I’m not sure why immigrants to Ireland should be expected to “swap” nationalities.

Well i said myself it is always going to be a low rate of success for an initial migrant to slowly over time aquire some sort of self-identification as being Irish. You can still go through the process goal i described. It probably won't ever fully integrate them but it may set up their children for an easier settling in Irish society and to avoid the identity issues present in countries who are about 30 years ahead of us on the subject of immigration.

An ability in English also helps of course. I'd rather see an effort to take in people with skills that are needed right now first and then sort out who has a fair level of english and who doesn't.

djpbarry

Deleted User wrote: »

the Irish Times piece, appears to be the work of a lazy journo, who quotes out of date stats, no more.

Yeah, you're right. There are no issues with regard to adult literacy in this country. The alarming problems highlighted by the OECD 10 years ago have magically corrected themselves and there is now no need for organisations such as the National Adult Literacy Agency.

:rolleyes:

CDfm

dsmythy wrote: »

An ability in English also helps of course. I'd rather see an effort to take in people with skills that are needed right now first and then sort out who has a fair level of english and who doesn't.

an ability to get on the bus in an orderly fashion etc also helps

just before we get into discussions on queuing my friend and me were on the DART and he gave his seat to a pregnant woman only for a foreign gent to start an argument that said seat should be his. Now Terry is big - but quiet but this guy was so ill mannered it was unreal - he was out to provoke.

Thats not racist - in the Middle East when I worked there you needed certain skills to get around and its polite to ignore women as its taken as displaying an interest.

The guy had English but his attitude was something else.

djpbarry

CDfm wrote: »

an ability to get on the bus in an orderly fashion etc also helps

just before we get into discussions on queuing my friend and me were on the DART and he gave his seat to a pregnant woman only for a foreign gent to start an argument that said seat should be his. Now Terry is big - but quiet but this guy was so ill mannered it was unreal - he was out to provoke.

Thats not racist - in the Middle East when I worked there you needed certain skills to get around and its polite to ignore women as its taken as displaying an interest.

The guy had English but his attitude was something else.

:rolleyes:

How do you manage to stand up straight with that great big chip on your shoulder?

CDfm

djpbarry wrote: »

:rolleyes:

How do you manage to stand up straight with that great big chip on your shoulder?

What chip? please do tell ...id love to know.

djpbarry

CDfm wrote: »

What chip? please do tell ...id love to know.

What exactly was the point of the fascinating little anecdote about some random guy on a train?

CDfm

djpbarry wrote: »

What exactly was the point of the fascinating little anecdote about some random guy on a train?

The discussion relates to a speech Minister Linehan made on foreigners.

Most politicians speak metaphorically.

So my anecdote was to highlight that this guys behaviour was bloody odd ,threatening and ugly. Now if people react to it its his comeuppence.Its not xenophobic or racist.

You on the other hand seem to want to gloss over all inappropriate behaviour under the guise that Irish people are not multi-cultural enough. Yet you never come up with any suggestions of how these guys should assimilate and dont care if immigrants are illegal or whatever. Its not xenophobic or racist to deport illegals and criminals.

You come accross like a wind up merchant.

djpbarry

CDfm wrote: »

So my anecdote was to highlight that this guys behaviour was bloody odd ,threatening and ugly. Now if people react to it its his comeuppence.Its not xenophobic or racist.

You on the other hand seem to want to gloss over all inappropriate behaviour under the guise that Irish people are not multi-cultural enough. Yet you never come up with any suggestions of how these guys should assimilate and dont care if immigrants are illegal or whatever. Its not xenophobic or racist to deport illegals and criminals.

You quite clearly have an issue with non-Irish people in this country and you're trying to derail the thread with your ranting. I'm going to leave you to it.

CDfm

djpbarry wrote: »

You quite clearly have an issue with non-Irish people in this country and you're trying to derail the thread with your ranting. I'm going to leave you to it.

thats a bit of a low blow - implying i am racist when its clear to you that i am not.

what i said was true - i am just pointing out there are situations where foreigners lack life skills for Ireland. Maybe Mr Linehan does have a point .

If an Irish person had behaved the same way to a foreign national I would have posted that.

cabinteelytom

It's the admission by the Minister that there are people (who have been given work permits by the government) but don't know English that is revealing; for I am gobsmacked that such persons exist.
If you don't know English or Irish, in a country where English is the 'working language' ...
How can you follow health and safety instructions? The worker who cannot, is a liability to his employer who under Irish law has a responsibility to provide 'information, instruction and training as neccessary' to ensure health and safety at work.
How can you claim equal pay for equal work, with the employee who can interface with the public and with any of the management staff?
How do you complete a valid income tax return?

We have gained a little insight, due to the Minister's proposal, into the poorly thought-out, irregular practices instituted during the boom years when the only priority was provide employers with quickly recruited staff. But do we now have a Government with the flexibility to change practice for the new economic circumstances?
Let's watch and see.

djpbarry

cabinteelytom wrote: »

It's the admission by the Minister that there are people (who have been given work permits by the government) but don't know English that is revealing; for I am gobsmacked that such persons exist.

What the article actually said was:

"While the minister said it would be “prescriptive” and “unfair” to attach an English language element to those seeking an initial work permit, he said that it could be introduced “for the purposes of renewal” of a work permit."