Cant break into management

PK2008

Hi, Im a new user here just wanted to get some feedback from current managers and business people regarding having some problems getting into management.

Im 30 years old and have been working in IT for the last 8 years (working altogether for 11 years). I have mainly been working in technical roles in IT but have been involved in projects as a poject lead and tech lead. I have a business degree and some tech qualifications.
Lately Ive felt my career is going to take 1 of 2 routes- management or deeper into IT technical specialisation- I want to move towards management but have met with some resistance. I have mainly been hitting the corporates but have been turned down alot due to my lack of management experience. To try to address this I applied to alot of business schools to get a general management qualification (MBA) but was also turned down due to my lack of management experience. Now I feel Ive kind of hit a brick wall.
I have always done well in my employment and have positive references from my employers but have never been cited as a possible future manager. Recently a girl I rent an apartment with was promoted to an account manager at the age of 26, and alot of my peers have been managers for a couple of years now. Im starting to wonder if I simply do not possess the natural skills to be a manager (ie not "management material"). I definetly do not want to go back to the technical end of IT and Im starting to think management isnt going to happen.

Alot of places have said "you're in a kind of a grey area" and to be honest Im growing more disillusioned with my career- Ive put alot of work in over the last 8 years but I dont think Im really heading anywhere

Any thoughts?

stepbar

PK2008 wrote: »

Hi, Im a new user here just wanted to get some feedback from current managers and business people regarding having some problems getting into management.

Im 30 years old and have been working in IT for the last 8 years (working altogether for 11 years). I have mainly been working in technical roles in IT but have been involved in projects as a poject lead and tech lead. I have a business degree and some tech qualifications.
Lately Ive felt my career is going to take 1 of 2 routes- management or deeper into IT technical specialisation- I want to move towards management but have met with some resistance. I have mainly been hitting the corporates but have been turned down alot due to my lack of management experience. To try to address this I applied to alot of business schools to get a general management qualification (MBA) but was also turned down due to my lack of management experience. Now I feel Ive kind of hit a brick wall.
I have always done well in my employment and have positive references from my employers but have never been cited as a possible future manager. Recently a girl I rent an apartment with was promoted to an account manager at the age of 26, and alot of my peers have been managers for a couple of years now. Im starting to wonder if I simply do not possess the natural skills to be a manager (ie not "management material"). I definetly do not want to go back to the technical end of IT and Im starting to think management isnt going to happen.

Alot of places have said "you're in a kind of a grey area" and to be honest Im growing more disillusioned with my career- Ive put alot of work in over the last 8 years but I dont think Im really heading anywhere

Any thoughts?

Don't compare yourself to a sales goon like your flatmate. I doubt she was promoted because she had any special management skills. I can safely say that she was promoted because she was good at the sales. I've seen a good few folk in my profession being promoted simply because they were good sales people. Very little management skills TBH.

If you're not getting the opportunity at your present place of work, then a job change might the solution. I get the sence that you're putting yourself forward for management type roles at present but not getting the recognition from those who are above you. However, I would also be keen to find out what other staff think about you. You should always make sure to get feedback from all project members during / after every project you do and this should also encompass your performance as a project lead.

Future career - I would be inclined to beef up your project management skills, there are plenty of project management courses / methodologies out there (PMI, PRINCE 2, Six Sigma etc). The University of Limerick seem to have a good range of courses.

PK2008

Funny you should mention the PM courses as I was going to apply for one for December- couldnt really make up my mind which would be better- Prince2 or PMI

dudara

PK2008 wrote: »

I have mainly been hitting the corporates but have been turned down alot due to my lack of management experience.

A lot of the bigger firms won't hire an inexperienced manager at manager level. This is because they like to train people in their style of management. A lot of people get hired at my firm at the levels above and below manager.

Apply for jobs one level below manager and speak about your desired career path in the interview.

Has your current employer mentioned any possibility of promotion to management or outlined any career development path for you?

Let me tell you something, where I am working CURRENTLY, while it may look all fancy from the outside, they are a pack of clowns inside! National Accounts Manager? Don't make me laugh, talk about a ****ing farcical role. No management or leadership skills and terrible people handling situations.

Sorry for the rant, but why the hell is communication so hard for these idiots? Common Sense REALLY is not that common!!!!! Idiots!

My point is it doesn't take much to be a manager from what I have seen, you just need to be in the right place at the right time, consider your options, if you feel further education will help, go for it but please don't lose motivation, your break will come. I bet you are more skilled than the people managing in your place at the minute, sometimes it takes more than just skill to get the role, play the game of business and try your best. If you don't succeed in this company, you will in another one if you are determined and play your cards right.

PK2008

dudara wrote: »

A lot of the bigger firms won't hire an inexperienced manager at manager level. This is because they like to train people in their style of management. A lot of people get hired at my firm at the levels above and below manager.

Apply for jobs one level below manager and speak about your desired career path in the interview.

Has your current employer mentioned any possibility of promotion to management or outlined any career development path for you?

Unfortunately there is no scope for a management position within my current company. The company I work for is large but IT is more of a support function for their client facing professional services so although the company is large the IT dept is rather limited. They are aware of the limitations and for the most part have allowed me to handle projects which go beyond the technical in order to keep me challenged unfortunately these are few and far between

Thats a good point about being on the firms own particluar career path, maybe a sideways move rather than an upward move might be worth looking at.

PK2008

Deleted User wrote: »

Let me tell you something, where I am working CURRENTLY, while it may look all fancy from the outside, they are a pack of clowns inside! National Accounts Manager? Don't make me laugh, talk about a ****ing farcical role. No management or leadership skills and terrible people handling situations.

Sorry for the rant, but why the hell is communication so hard for these idiots? Common Sense REALLY is not that common!!!!! Idiots!

My point is it doesn't take much to be a manager from what I have seen, you just need to be in the right place at the right time, consider your options, if you feel further education will help, go for it but please don't lose motivation, your break will come. I bet you are more skilled than the people managing in your place at the minute, sometimes it takes more than just skill to get the role, play the game of business and try your best. If you don't succeed in this company, you will in another one if you are determined and play your cards right.

I think there may be something in your point about different professions having different managerial paths. Im actually not too sure what an account manager is though the girl I live with painted it as a pretty interesting managerial role, though in hindsight she may have been overstating it as another person here has implied something similar to what you say.

I think Ive been lucky in that, for the most part, Ive worked with very good managers but I think there is certainly a bit of truth in what you say about playing "the game of business".

Bandara

PK2008 wrote: »

I think there may be something in your point about different professions having different managerial paths. Im actually not too sure what an account manager is though the girl I live with painted it as a pretty interesting managerial role, though in hindsight she may have been overstating it as another person here has implied something similar to what you say.

I think Ive been lucky in that, for the most part, Ive worked with very good managers but I think there is certainly a bit of truth in what you say about playing "the game of business".

I've been an a Shop Floor Salesperson, a Sales Excutive, an Account Manager, a Corporate Account Manager, a Sales Manager and a European Sales Manager.

Each job was progressively easier than the next, hit your targets and for the rest of the time you do sod all. Its not management at all, unless you consider managing your own little world to be managment.

Sales management is basically avoiding the sh!t coming your way, and when you get really high up placing others in the way of the sh!t.

PK, if you have genuine talent stick with it, you'll get your break. I'd imagine though that the first break will involve getting out of the job your doing now and going somewhere where people will invest in you and give you a chance to make it or fail. Thats all your asking for, a chance.

Good luck with it.

stepbar

PK2008 wrote: »

Funny you should mention the PM courses as I was going to apply for one for December- couldnt really make up my mind which would be better- Prince2 or PMI

Really depends what jobs you are looking for. But having did a bit of PMI, I would recommend it.

PK2008 wrote: »

I think there may be something in your point about different professions having different managerial paths. Im actually not too sure what an account manager is though the girl I live with painted it as a pretty interesting managerial role, though in hindsight she may have been overstating it as another person here has implied something similar to what you say.

I think Ive been lucky in that, for the most part, Ive worked with very good managers but I think there is certainly a bit of truth in what you say about playing "the game of business".

You can be sure that an account mgr is geared towards sales. If she thinks there's any real mgt skills involved then she's seriously deluded. A good head for bullsh1te should be enough to see her through. Anything else is a bonus.

PK2008

stepbar wrote: »

Really depends what jobs you are looking for. But having did a bit of PMI, I would recommend it.




You can be sure that an account mgr is geared towards sales. If she thinks there's any real mgt skills involved then she's seriously deluded. A good head for bullsh1te should be enough to see her through. Anything else is a bonus.

Yes, Im defintely going to look into the PMI course- Ive recently seen one that goes for 5 days and then you do the exam- do you recommend that type of course (seems very short)?

She is involved with sales but I always assumed that in order to be good in sales management you would need to have good people/communications skills, its interesting though a few other people here are saying the same things about sales mgmt. I have never really had much contact with sales mgmt- mainly marketing, finance and HR which would be, I suppose, more support dept's like IT rather than client facing depts

Darragh29

I'm surprised that nobody has yet asked you on this thread, why you want to be a manager??? On most occasions, wanting to be a manger ought to automaticallly disqualify a candidate who hasn't a management qualification... You would be amazed at the number of people in management in Ireland who haven't a single qualification relevant to their position.

PK2008

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'm surprised that nobody has yet asked you on this thread, why you want to be a manager??? On most occasions, wanting to be a manger ought to automaticallly disqualify a candidate who hasn't a management qualification... You would be amazed at the number of people in management in Ireland who haven't a single qualification relevant to their position.

Hahaha, you might be right about wanting to be a manager disqualifying you. The main reason I want to be a manager is really down to career progression/professional development. I have been a systems engineer for about 3 years now which in alot of ways is the day to day technical management of the IT systems, my boss is the IT manager and would deal with IT's strategic function within the org. Im interested in the strategy aspect and also the interdepartmental co-ordination that goes on for fulfilling the overall business strategies. Ive gotten some exposure to that from working on interdepartmental projects such as implementing CRM and knowledge management systems.
At the moment I feel that Im kind of at a crossroads, I can either continue developing my technical IT skills or I can move toward management (or I suppose I could stay where I am but its becoming less and less challenging and more and more repetitive). Personally management seems the most interesting route as I like the collaboration aspect with people from different business disciplines. Although my experience is technical my degree is a BA(Hons) in Business Studies which I feel gives me a little insight into the other business functions. I covered some management in the degree but Im not too sure if that would be considered an accepted management qualification- the only one I could think of was the MBA (Masters of Business Administration) but strangely you need to have management experience before you can get onto the course (a bit of a chicken and egg thing imo) and I was turned down for it aswell due to my lack mgmt experience

EDIT: Sorry I said I was a sys engineer for the last 3 years- I should have mentioned that I started out as tech support 8 years ago, then went into network admin, then IT trainer, now sys engineering (though at each stage Ive always done a bit of each- IT is kind of a mix of everything even my manager takes user support calls every now and then)

dudara

PK2008 wrote: »

Yes, Im defintely going to look into the PMI course- Ive recently seen one that goes for 5 days and then you do the exam- do you recommend that type of course (seems very short)?

All our practioners are PRINCE2 trained and it does take 5 days including an exam. So that sounds about right.

My definition of a manager would not include Sales/Account Managers - those jobs are really about selling. So don't judge yourself by that standard.

If you have project management experience, then that's something you need to highlight.

projectmayhem

stepbar wrote: »

Don't compare yourself to a sales goon like your flatmate. I doubt she was promoted because she had any special management skills. I can safely say that she was promoted because she was good at the sales. I've seen a good few folk in my profession being promoted simply because they were good sales people. Very little management skills TBH.

+1

And I say this who has been promoted into management because I was good at sales (or at least better then my colleagues )... Now I've taken to it like a duck to water, but it's hit-and-miss whether or not you develop a good manager from such promotion.

There's no point being promoted to management for no reason right now, because you won't progress beyond "middle management" that way. Keep your head down and focus on project management type stuff. Keep hammering away at your career and you'll get there in the end. Don't be in a mad rush.

Darragh29

I'll throw my 2 cents in here OP. I've found in the past that the most important factor with regard to getting a management job, is to be working in the right type of organisation. I used to work for a company that had a strange approach to workplace promotion. What used to happen was, instead of advertising vacancies or opportunities, they (management) would basically sit down amongst themselves and identify who they wanted to be the next manager or supervisor and approach that person, who would have indicated in a yearly appraisal that they wanted to move into management. It took me some time to work out that the reason this approach was being used, was because the people making the decisions on this approach, had no understanding of proper experience of effective management, and so the place suffered from a morale that could only be described as putrid and everyone hated management, except the people who were doing a side deal at review time, for promotion.

If you work in an environment like this, then no amount of academic preparation or course work or experience will ever deliver the ambition you have stated above. My best advice to you is to look a bit harder at the opportunities that are emerging where you work. Is the company a large company, and I ask this to establish if these opportunities are emerging often enough for you to be able to apply for a position. Also, if there are ample opportunities for you in this organisation, is the selection process in respect of an applicant, fair and objective, or are you dealing with something along the lines of what I have decribed above???

If you are getting consistent feedback from prospective employers saying "you're kind of in a grey area", then you possibly need to go through your CV and re-engineer it for submission to folks who will look at it in relation to a vacant management position, placing a much greater focus on your management experience, I see you have mentioned that you have project managed and been in a team lead role.

PK2008

Yes I think I may have to look at my CV again as, like you say, it might be highlighting this "grey area" rather than my strengths. I'll defintely have to move outside my company for a management position and I think the project management route is probably the route to go- I had been looking at IT management positions previously but it appears there is maybe a step missing in my work experience, maybe project management will fill that gap.

Darragh29

PK2008 wrote: »

Yes I think I may have to look at my CV again as, like you say, it might be highlighting this "grey area" rather than my strengths. I'll defintely have to move outside my company for a management position and I think the project management route is probably the route to go- I had been looking at IT management positions previously but it appears there is maybe a step missing in my work experience, maybe project management will fill that gap.

Where you work now, can you apply for positions as they become vacant or are you dealing with a "jobs for the boys" culture???

Also, is the company big enough for these positions to become vacant requently enough, or are you working somewhere that is smaller and you'll be waiting ages for the lad/girl who is currently holding the position that you want, to get off the pot?

PK2008

The company is too small (well the company itself is big but the IT dept is small comparitively), ie they have an IT manager and that would be my next step up. In terms of moving into management within their professional services side (which are mainly legal and financial) I would have to have a legal or finacial background

homeOwner

Darragh29 has hit the nail on the head. You need to be in the loop on these things.

As an IT manager myself, the person in my dept who has become the person I leave in charge when I am away and the person I consult with on most decisions (including hiring process and work distribution among the team) has been the person who is consistently stepping up and proving herself. If I were to leave or be promoted myself I would definitely recommend her to my boss as my replacement and my boss alreadys knows this.

To get promoted you need to let it be known you want to be promoted, then you also have to be seen to be able to do the job. If there are any extra tasks you can do on your team, do them. If your manager is out, step up and try to fill his shoes (not to your team mates, but to others outside your team looking for your manager).

Unless it really is about jobs for the boys where you work, it becomes obvious on a team who the reliable and capable person is. People will naturally look to that person when the manager is out.

Other than that, the only advise I have is if it isnt happening where you work, look around for a move outside the company.

PK2008

Some very good advice here, I have to thank everyone, its given me some great perspective on my circumstances. I think going forward I will look at moving into project management roles outside my current company which give a clearer career path toward senior management positions and maybe some more support systems for professional development. I think this will help me to bridge the people managment gap that I currently have and leverage my technical management skills.

Darragh29

Ill leave you with this OP. You will get that management job if you can take ownership of, and solve problems that are currently giving your manager a headache and particularly if you can do this by making people who work with you, feel positive about their participation with regard to how you have involved them in your strategy to solve the problem. You'd be surprised at how easy this can be, and how complicated some people will make it... Leadership is about inspiring, empowering, assisting, encouraging, persuading, helping, teaching and convincing your work colleagues, to focus on one goal.

Someone recently said to me, "Ya know, Michael O' Leary doesn't fly planes..." I wouldn't rate him as a leader, but the point still has to be taken, he doesn't fly planes...

Reesy

Deleted User wrote: »

Let me tell you something, where I am working CURRENTLY, while it may look all fancy from the outside, they are a pack of clowns inside! National Accounts Manager? Don't make me laugh, talk about a ****ing farcical role. No management or leadership skills and terrible people handling situations.

+0.5

Let's remember that there are different types of management job. OP, it sounds like you want to get into people management (as opposed to project management, account management, etc.). I'm not saying your 'account manager' flatmate is (or isn't) doing a valuable / interesting job - but I think it's not what you've expressed interest in. For example, I'm a 'Head of department'. Impressive, eh? Well, I don't manage anyone at the moment, because I'm in a v. small company. (still like the job tho'!)

Just an idea: if you have HR people in your place that you respect, could you have a chat with them & explore how you'd need to develop in order to be ready for management - in general? You might get some free consulting?

Either way, good luck mate.

Ellechim

PK, a few things here (and i'm speaking as a long in the tooth senior business person)

a) the market is completely dead right now so if you're looking for a job move employers can be more fussy than normal and less prepared to take risks - ie put someone in the role who can grow into it as opposed to putting someone in the role who has done a comparable role before).

b) look to yourself: I have been managing people since the early 90s and those that i have promoted or recommended for promotion are those that go beyond the day to day call of duty, those that can work totally unsupervised and take the lead, those with good people management skills and those that are very keen to develop: they ask what else they need to do to get promoted, not just from a point of view of delivery but also from a development point of view in terms of their skills. Take a long hard look at what your current manager does against what you do: identify your areas that you can and need to develop and then work on them

c) PMI or Prince2 are very valuable in the marketplace but only where you can show you have actually used them in 'real' life. They are relatively quick and easy qualifications to get and will give you an edge but what really gives you the edge is having the experience

d) having read thousands of CVs in my time have a long good hard look at your CV - make sure that it is as good as it possibly can be because it is your 'shop window'.......think about what you want to say about yourself and the skills you want to give evidence of to a future employer and make sure you show how you've used those skills and if you can give statements of where you've made a difference do: example: improved the reporting process by automating reducing reporting times from 2 days to 2 hours, or renegotiated the contract for X reducing the cost by 20% and saving €x......
this shows you're results focussed

e) if people management experience is what you need see if your manager will give you some direct reports - if not then see if s/he will give you a university intern for a period of time - many of the college courses require people to do a work placement and they cost relatively little to employ and it could be a very useful place to practice your people management skills and prove that you can get the best out of people.

f) get a mentor: in surveys of senior management they all state they have a mentor or mentors who have been crucial to their success: this can be your manager but most ideally someone much more senior than you with whom you get on in whom you can confide and who will listen and give you good advice and has enough insight into you and what makes you tick to help you. The trick is to work on this relationship: this person(s) can help open doors to you and give you very valuable guidance.

g) read books on leadership: there are tons of them out there: I'd recommend Stephen Covey.........

h) Know what some of the research into leadership says, especially know that successful leaders do the following four things:
1. build great teams
2. deliver what they say they will
3. grow with the role
4. build and maintain great relationships

i) set yourself some goals: envisage where you'd like to be in say 5 years time, then plot out how you get there: so you'd like job A, in order to get that you have to do job B, in order to get job B you have to be good at x and y.......to get good at x and y you have to do z.....etc etc

j) think about who can help you...........

These are just some ideas - having been around the block they are some of the things I wish I'd known earlier in my career.......