M6 - Galway City RR - ABP planning cancelled. Other solutions?

DaCor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770104#Comment_119770104

As I said, my situation has no bearing on the topic. Why you are aiming to make this about me is, well, just plain weird.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770104#Comment_119770104

You didn’t answer the question

I answered your questions. It is not my fault if you cannot comprehend the reply.

you’re diverting your points into closing roads and getting people to cycle, walk or take a bus into the city which is all fine if the infrastructure exists around it.

erm, I'm saying that the infrastructure needs to be put in place. There is no point spending a massive amount of taxpayers money on a road that their own data says will make things worse for the city.

Also, I did not say about "getting" people to cycle, walk or take a bus. That implies force. I said that the council need to provide options to the people who will make the choice on what means of travel to take. Up till now, that choice has been massively skewed towards private car travel.

In Galway’s case, it’s already 20 years too late.

So you're saying not to bother because the car is the dominant form now and there's no going back? If so, let me show you a photo of Amsterdam in the 1970s...

If you think transport patterns cannot change then you're wrong. History has shown us that they've already changed in Galway and all around the world!

I find it somewhat arrogant that you’re claiming the emergency services are ‘wrong’ re Salthill cycleway concerns.

How you find something is for you to deal with but whilst you may find my response arrogant, it is not wrong!

That is a life or death situation for many. Talk of them being able to charge down cycle lanes quickly and urgently with the plans I saw for Salthill doesn’t match reality.

So the emergency services across the world can manage to use cycle lanes to get to an emergency and in some cases it has allowed them to bypass traffic congestion but in Galway it wouldn't have worked? How so?

I support all the public transport and cycleway options if they’re based in reality - infrastructure.

Evidently!

But you’re in the minority of the views of people in Galway city and county I talk to on a daily basis.

Is it a popularity contest to see which transport solution for Galway should be built? Will they be taking Facebook likes into account also?

The anger is palpable at the latest decision. People have lost patience for this circus.

I'm angry at the constant desire to piss away money without even trying to do the basics first which would cost a tiny fraction of what the road would cost. However, my anger is directed towards the councils and TII who are hell bent on trying to bulldoze a feckin stupid plan through whilst admitting that it will make trasport in and around Galway worse whilst at the same time making air qualtiy worse and doing nothing to make it easier to make an alternative choice on how to travel.

Then you get the muppets (obviously not you!) who believe that the road should go ahead regardless of all else and ignore all of the evidence provided. Sure they've spoken to their angry neighbours who also think the road should be built despite all of the evidence which says that it would be a bad investment of taxpayers money.

The only people supporting no road are those who don’t want their mansions knocked down or those who want to restrict access to their locality such as certain areas to the west of Galway city close to the sea and surrounds.

Ah would you grow up!

xckjoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770112#Comment_119770112

We are bypassed. M17+M18. This is a ring road proposal. There's no major settlements further West of Galway so no need for a East-West bypass

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119769340#Comment_119769340

Fantastic comparison. Not open to x, y or z, not even for a second.

Ghent:

Galway:

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770236#Comment_119770236

Population of Galway city: 83,456

Population of Galway county: 276,451

Population excl. city: 192,996

But yeah no one lives in East or West Galway. Maybe that 192k live underground with the mole people and move around using an advanced system of tunnels.

xckjoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770368#Comment_119770368

Never said that nobody lives outside the city. I said there's no major population centre to the west of the city so a bypass serves no purpose. There isn't a bypass being proposed and never has been. Someone will come along in a minute to remind us of the percentage of trips that start and end outside the city that would necessitate a bypass.

Based on how badly you interpreted my post I'm not convinced you're posting in good faith so will leave it there.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770650#Comment_119770650

Okay but this goes to the very heart of the broader argument. Galway is a sprawling county - it's the WORST example in Ireland.

No big towns, mostly one off housing, and people absolutely dependent on cars. PT solutions within Galway City don't help these people with day to day living.

WAY MORE people should be commuting sustainably, no question. But if we continue to ignore the sprawled nature of county and compare to Ghent, then we're just going to keep arguing and go nowhere.

xckjoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770716#Comment_119770716

That's one of the main problems with the proposed ring road; it'll encourage more sprawl and one-off housing. Build transport hubs and the housing will naturally gravitate towards it.

DaCor

Seems like due to the recent quashing of the planning permission for the ring road, the Galway Advertiser has decided to run a number of transport related articles in this weeks edition

First up, Cllr Ollie Crowe almost getting it, but still maintaining the "let us build this then everything else will be fixed" without anything to back it up

"Those who oppose the ring road on ideological grounds fail to recognise that the ring road will enable much of what they wish to advance, by taking cars out of the city, there will be far more scope to promote bus lanes and cycle lanes."

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/132207/a-bus-stuck-in-a-traffic-is-no-better-than-a-car-says-ollie-crowe-after-ring-road-setback

Then we have IBEC, repeating the same mantra, yet everything they are referring to from the GTS is due for implementation ahead of the GCRR anyway so the GCRR has no bearing.

“The ring road will support improved mobility in the city. It will tackle the city’s congestion challenges by reducing the number of cars in the city, creating a city centre more conducive to walking and cycling, and more efficient for cross-city public transport journeys."

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/132206/decision-on-gcrr-a-major-setback-ibec

Next up we have the well known Ind TD (well known for his racist rants) Noel "I'm not a racist" Grealish who doesn't seem to understand the purpose of the ring road as it will not do anything of the sort that he is claiming. Well, to be fair, it might for like 15-20 months and thats about it

“Galway is suffering extreme congestion in the city centre and increased journey times, as I have experienced myself. The ring road has the potential to reroute traffic from the city and alleviate capacity constraints.”

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/132186/grealish-tells-dil-that-never-ending-ring-road-saga-shows-need-for-planning-laws-change

The ever motoring Sean Kyne gets his tupence in with the same claim that the GCRR is needed to make the city a better place. The last 3 words of this quote pretty much kill his whole argument as there has always been too many on the council claiming AT/PT measures are not feasible.

"It will make the inner core of our city more liveable and more able to accommodate the public transport measures in the strategy and future plans. The GCRR provides the space in the existing road network for more bus lanes, cycling and pedestrian projects and light rail, if deemed feasible."

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/132173/ring-road-an-integral-part-of-the-solution-to-get-galway-moving-again

On the other side of the coin we see Sen Pauline Reilly calling out populist politicians for their dishonesty

"I believe too many politicians have been using it for their own election platforms, instead of being honest with us all in Galway. The Ring Road was never going to solve the traffic problems. It was only ever going to lock us in to more car dependency."

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/132174/road-decision-ensures-better-future-for-our-children

Then you have an article about parents who have given up waiting and instead are having to create a protection detail, aka cycle bus, to allow their children to travel to school without fear of injury or death

Parents were concerned that the lack of segregated cycleways made it unsafe for children cycling to school. They decided that, until such infrastructure is in place, a cyclebus could provide protection for children and families who wish to cycle. The cyclebus operates like a moving cycle lane, with the children protected by a row of adults cycling on the outside.

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/132137/pedal-power-parents-form-school-cyclebus-for-salthill

Lastly, for the 2 time in as many months, we see another Doctor getting "doored". Again another lucky escape, but how long until we see someone killed. Its only a matter of time

Dr Vinny Griffith, was cycling back home from University College Hospital Galway (UCHG ) on the evening of Wednesday, September 28, when he was “doored” by a parked car.

This is the second time a healthcare worker has been “doored” on the streets of Galway while on their way home from work in the last few months. Dooring, a term which is used to describe the action of when a car door is opened into the path of an oncoming cyclist, and can cause extensive injuries to the cyclist.

In August, Dr Ciara Curran was cycling along The Prom in Salthill, when she was doored by a parked car. The “dooring” resulted in her handlebars being knocked which sent her flying off her bike and onto the next lane, where oncoming traffic was approaching, Dr Curran, a “seasoned cyclist” said on Galway Bay FM show, Galway Talks, that she was “lucky to be alive”.

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/132196/doored-doctor-calls-for-better-cycling-infrastructure

I'll let ye draw your own conclusions

Seth Brundle

Given @DaCor mentioned the profound wisdom of Cllr Ollie Crowe, architect Ciarán Ferrie disected his article's last paragraph (which DaCor has repeated above), this one tweet from Ferrie is a good representation of how Galway got to where it is now...

https://twitter.com/ccferrie/status/1583002885415395328?s=20&t=djG_Y4OUtkhwYGwFpWXYCg

I also saw this old skit in a response to his tweet - it seems quite apt...

https://twitter.com/LiorSteinberg/status/1536221889206669313

For those unfamiliar, I give you the death metal band Jevons paradox!

DaCor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119771229#Comment_119771229

That clip is from a much longer bit (5 mins). Its honestly quite funny regardless of your stance on the GCRR

https://youtu.be/pCzCJzwrB_c

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770823#Comment_119770823

You can't develop denser towns without a baseline road network to get materials, lorries, cranes, (wo)men in white vans in to actually build anything.

What's your suggestion?? Ban one off housing (fine, I agree), but then what??? Everyone needs to start praying that apartments grow out of the ground? It rains enough in Galway, maybe a fungus will evolve into high rise buildings which answers our prayers.

KrisW1001

A new low.

Do we have a way of muting or hiding a thread on Boards?

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119771667#Comment_119771667

The road network we already have didn't prevent Bonham Quay being built and the tall cranes currently in the University grounds seem to kept very busy. We also manage to get wind turbines through the city and out to Connemara using the current road network.

While there may be some reasons for a ring road that have some validity the idea that construction in the city is impossible without it is farcical.

Juran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770236#Comment_119770236

No major settlements west of Galway ?

West of Galway is: Largest gaeltacht in the country which almost doubles in the summer with gaelgoirí, one of the key fishing ports and ferry port to Aran, (and planned to be the main Galway commercial port), Connemara south (Spiddal, Cois fharraige, Ros a Mhíl, Casla, Cararoe, Na hOiléain, Rosmuc, Carna), Connemara north (Clifden, Roundstone, Ballyconneely), Fubro/Barna, Knocknacarra & Sathill.

<snip> Mod: Do not attack the poster.

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119771799#Comment_119771799

Saying there are no major settlements west of Galway is not the same thing as saying no one lives west of Galway. Like it or not the main settlements are all in the part of the county that is east of the city.

Juran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119771877#Comment_119771877

I don't disagree with your figures.

Tell me, how many tourists visit Gort, Oranmore, Tuam and Loughrea every year ?

This is the difference between East and West Galway.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119771877#Comment_119771877

This is HILARIOUS.

All the towns you list have motorway bypasses or a ring road. LOL

I'm estimating (so please correct me), but I estimate the following populations:

Galway city: 74k

Galway West (excl. City): 75k

Galway East: 117k

The one off housing across the county is appalling, particularly bad in Galway West. Improving road infrastructure won't lead to more one off housing if you ban one off housing, which GCC basically have?.....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119772132#Comment_119772132

You are overestimating the population west of the city.

When you say Galway West do you mean the Dáil constituency?

If so that number includes well populated areas such as Clarinbridge, Oranmore, Claregalway and Annaghdown.

The city was a double decker short of 80k in the 2016 census.

CruelSummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770148#Comment_119770148

Nothing personal meant, apologies if it appears that’ way. I am demonstrating that many posters on this thread who are vehemently against the road are not affected by the outcomes as they’re not commuting or living in Galway. Many of the posters also appear completely anti any roads being constructed and totally anti car.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119772240#Comment_119772240

Okay thanks for that. It was difficult to get this info, so yes I used constituency data (from 2011 before GE split with Roscommon).

It would be nice to see population separation East and West of the Corrib, if anyone can help ....

By the way, the articles linked above are farcical. I mean seriously - the lack of PT investment has resulted in traffic congestion but this is what they think......

......He said that Galway has been a victim of its own success as industrial growth has resulted in traffic congestion.

Seth Brundle

Many of the posters also appear completely anti any roads being constructed and totally anti car.

Whilst neither of those would reflect my views, people having an opinion different to yours does not mean that their opinion is any less valid than yours assuming that it is based on the facts and the evidence. Plus, as taxpayers they have a fiscal interest in whether or not the road is built! One could also argue that were the road to go ahead then the air quality in Galway will deteriorate (as per the TII/councils own studies) which has an effect on the health of all of us.

DaCor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119772331#Comment_119772331

No harm no foul :)

Just to be clear, I don't think all roads are evil, quite the contrary, there are some that are needed and urgently due to the way we've allowed planning and transportation to evolve. Same for cars, they serve a purpose and while I sold my own, I still have a license and still make use of GoCar when the rare occasion calls for it but mostly I walk, cycle, bus, train everywhere now and prefer it that way

marno21

MOD:

I am temporarily closing this thread and will discuss with the other mods how to proceed. It’s a complete train wreck at present

marno21

MOD:

This thread will remain closed until further developments on the project. If something happens related to the project please PM me and I will reopen for discussion.

At the minute it's like Groundhog Day in here and without something new to discuss it'll be the same old arguments that have gone on here for years.

Sam Russell

MOD

ABP has collapsed its defence of the HC action so the current planning is cancelled.

I will reopen this thread for discussion but include the PT aspects of solving the Galway traffic problem as the GCC will hardly be built within the next 5 to 10 years but the traffic problem cannot wait that long.

hans aus dtschl

I've just read an article on BreakingNews saying "Galway County Council’s planning application for a €600 million ring road around Galway will be remitted to An Bord Pleanála for fresh consideration." does this mean that they are going to try and resubmit it?

DaCor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120181514#Comment_120181514

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2023/01/30/application-for-600m-galway-ring-road-to-be-considered-afresh-by-bord-pleanala/

It means that ABP are going back to the point of the inspectors report in Jun 2021 and reassessing from that point.

This reassessment will take account of the Climate Action Plan and the project will have to meet the criteria of that.

Hard to see how it'll be granted permission with that in mind

It's estimated that this review will take 12 months which means its most likely to take about 18-24 months

Sam Russell

I think the whole set of mitigation of city centre traffic needs to be carried out and many mitigation measures implemented for PT and sustainable travel - bikes and walking.

It is unlikely that the GRR will be opened within a decade, and so many actions are needed before then. Why is there no PT crossing the QCB? Why can there not be a cycle lane in Salthill along the sea front? Oh, yes, the cars need to be parked there!

The alternative project that have been shelved pending the GCC need dusting down and reconsidered.

Edit: Galway Ring Road meant above.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120181534#Comment_120181534

Extremely difficult to see where an approval is going to come from on this. If ABP do somehow manage to convince themselves to ok a project that increases emissions while our climate plan says we must reduce emissions, then this will just end up back under judicial review. If, somehow, the courts decide that this project is ok, then it'll be taken all the way to the ECJ.