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M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning approved]

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,161 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    The issues it creates can be solved later, like everything in this world..

    True, but then that has always the case until very recently



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 32,336 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Seth Brundle


    Anyway, I'm fully supportive of 'just building the damn thing'. The issues it creates can be solved later, like everything in this world..

    So before long you'll hear people saying how another road needs to be built because traffic somehow has gotten so bad.

    However, we'll have wasted the guts of a billion quid and Galway still won't be attractive place to take a bus or cycle within.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,822 ✭✭✭ SeanW


    Who said it has to be either/or?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,161 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    Because funding

    Did you happen to review the GTS documents by any chance?

    It's basically the GCRR and a handful of very basic bus, bike and walking measures. It works out to be about 600 mil for the GCRR and about 25 million for everything else. It should also be noted that not all of the "everything else" will be done either.

    Building the GCRR means crumbs from the table for everything else.

    Whereas spend 100 million on the everything else would free up far more capacity on the city roads than the GCRR ever will and see the city being a far better place to live in.

    What Galway got in the GTS is basically the absolute bare minimum they could feasibly get away with.....and a ring road.

    In a nutshell Galway will not see serious levels of investment in any form of sustainable transport for the next 10-20 years as long as the GCRR is on the table.

    The GTS is scheduled for review this year but as the GCRR was approved by ABP, any modifications to it will be minimal.

    Only when the ring road becomes a fustercluck with traffic jams will they look at resolving that by which time the population will be 50% larger and dispersed over a far larger area which will mean the likes of walking and cycling will not be a convenient option for a lot of people and it'll be a nightmare to try implement bus infrastructure.

    The next few weeks will see who is bringing JR's and what they will entail and personally I really hope they succeed in getting it canned as that's the best hope to transform Galway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,049 ✭✭✭ SeaSlacker


    I’m seeing a lot of “because”es that are nothing more than prejudice. “Because funding”. “Because in 10 years time they’ll be calling for another road”


    ”We know it will…” no you don’t. No one “knows”. You believe.

    who’s asking for a second M50? I’m not, nor is anyone I’ve heard. And the majority would oppose.

    Why isn’t funding for able body powered transport tagged into the motorised funding? Fairly easy especially with Greens in power to anchor road funding into ablebody transport alongside. The cost is what it is, we do both. Just like the Children’s Hospital.


    and to those who say “do nothing, because we’ll only have to do another one later”. The answer to that is population number control. Which is what happens with road restriction. Why is population control never in the conversation?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 777 ✭✭✭ Green Peter


    It's needed, let's get on with it. If it had been built when first proposed it would have been a fraction of the cost. It's ironic that objectors are raising cost as an issue when it's their fault.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,113 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatInABox


    If you haven't heard of the new M50, then you haven't been reading the news over the past 30 years. Once the M50 first became congested (very soon after it opened), people began complaining about the fact that its utility as a bypass was nullified by the amount of people using it for local trips, so they began calling for improvements, which took two forms: Road widening and the outer orbital road.

    The Leinster Outer Orbital Route, also known as the M45, the Dublin Outer ring road, and various others, was official government policy up until 2015 or so, when it was pushed back until "after 2035". Various Taoisigh, transport ministers, TDs from all around the country, Transport Infrastructure Ireland and hundreds of lobbying groups, along with most of the media commentators have all been calling for this for years. A cursory glance at google will show you all of this.

    The road widening of the M50 went ahead of course, and it's blown past the congestion projections years ahead of schedule. So of course, people are again calling for the new road. At least this time around, official Ireland don't really seem to be biting down on it, they're saying that there's no funding for it, and that it won't solve the problem. These were the same reasons that the M50 extension just got cancelled as well, the Eastern Bypass, so when you talk of people "believing", you're right, it's just a belief, but there's far more evidence on their side of the column than yours.

    Also, the greens got a massive yearly increase in funding for active transport projects, but the effects of this will take years to filter in. This is primarily a pipeline issue, as LAs and road authorities didn't have any projects ready to go. This has resulted in those authorities using that extra money to resurface and realign roads for cars, with them pointing to the fact that the cycle lane was also resurfaced as the "active travel" excuse for using those funds. The money has been used to recruit loads of extra active transport planers though, so as I said, those projects will come in future.

    Presumably, "population number control" doesn't enter the conversation because there's zero evidence for it? I mean, Galway doesn't have the ring road right now, and is still growing at a good rate. As are most cities and large towns Ireland, in fact. Even if roads do affect population numbers (again, zero evidence), wouldn't an increase in public transport and active travel have the same effect?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,049 ✭✭✭ SeaSlacker


    Where’s the M45 thread on here? Did I miss it?

    Also re the link between population & infrastructure: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0974930619879573

    literally the second Google result



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,685 ✭✭✭ markpb


    Here: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2055416009/dublin-outer-orbital-route-door

    Presumably you also missed the M50 thread which mostly consists is people complaining about the levels of congestion. First it was the toll - that was removed at massive cost. Then it was the junctions and most of those were improved when the extra lane was added. A billion euro spent only a few years after the M50 was finished.

    At the same time, the city of LA spent a billion dollars adding an extra lane to the 101. And now they’re in the same position as us, the extra lane is congested and average speeds are back where they were. At least they spent extra money building mass transit at the same time.

    But go on, tell us how Galway is different.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,109 ✭✭✭ xckjoo


    Good article. Hopefully the government will take it on board and start paving our roads soon. I'm sick of all these dirt roads....

    They mention road density being a bigger factor. Easy way to improve that is to shift people from cars to buses. Road throughput will skyrocket.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 32,336 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Seth Brundle


    Have you a link to research on population & congested infrastructure or a paper on how employment is affected by congestion or even something on population health and traffic congestion?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,685 ✭✭✭ markpb


    Did you read the paper you shared: there’s a crucial line in the summary.

    ”we find positive effects of road density and road paved on total factor productivity (TFP) in countries with middle low and low income (using parametric and non-parametric estimations”

    Is Ireland a middle or low income country?



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,113 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatInABox


    As I said, it's gone under many names, Markpb has given you just one of the threads on here about it.

    Thanks for the study, it wasn't that long of a read, and while I don't claim to understand all of it, I do understand that it mainly relates to low income agrarian economies with unpaved roads, and the upgrades of those roads. Galway is far, far past the point at which this study would apply. It also only studies road density and percentage paved, as proxies, but has nothing on road usage, i.e. public transport, BRTs, etc. I'd also question what it has to do with "population number control", as it doesn't seem to say anything on population growth at all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭ KrisW1001


    Citing the M50 as something “that wasn’t a problem” shows an incredible lack of memory. We are now about to enter the third iteration of the M50: first was 2x2 lanes each way with at-grade junctions; the second was an enormously expensive scheme to grade-separate those junctions and add additional running lanes; the third is a managed motorway with variable speed-limits and the potential for per-kilometre usage charging in future.

    It is demand for transportation that is linked to population, not demand for roads. Road space is only one mechanism for satisfying demand for transportation. It is, however, the cheapest in terms of capital spending. The alternatives (light rail, integrated bus network, etc) require ongoing operating expenditure, which is something that our government has always been very reluctant to approve. You would have thought that the lesson of Luas (which operates at a surplus) would have convinced the government that public transport can be something other than a drain on the exchequer, but old habits die very hard: fire-and-forget solutions like roadbuilding look like easy wins.

    (I am fully aware that not all who would use the M6 could use a light rail system instead, but the key is to take the very many who could go by public transport out of private cars, thus freeing space on the existing roads for commercial users and those who have no other option but to drive)



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,049 ✭✭✭ SeaSlacker


    That thread started the same year as this one (2008), but has a total of 4 pages of replies, the last of which was in 2017. Not really a comprison to this one, current since 2008 and 144 pages in. We’re going to do one of two things. Demand the ring road or leave. I’m leaving.

    not a fan of wielding a stick to those who “can but won’t”. We “can but won’t” pay for healthcare. We “can but won’t” work. Bang of libertarian “f*ck those scum” off of it. No good politics comes from those that target those who “can but won’t”, because those who “can but won’t” are usually considered utter scum by the speaker.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 32,336 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Seth Brundle


    We’re going to do one of two things. Demand the ring road or leave. I’m leaving.

    Close the door on your way out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,648 ✭✭✭ ben.schlomo


    You do you. But trying to back up your position by claiming, without any evidence, that there are many more in the same situation and there are people not starting families due to the lack of a road tells its own tale.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,362 ✭✭✭✭ jmayo


    I notice you lads have no solution for those in say Barna, Spiddal, Moycullen, etc, etc or do you suggest they also get ebikes. 🙄

    And as someone who had to cycle across Galway city for a couple of years many moons ago, I can't say I enjoyed all those days of p***ing rain.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,049 ✭✭✭ SeaSlacker


    Uh, Housing Crisis where the options for homebuilding are severely limited even to those willing to live in a cookie cutter or shoebox?

    proving my point about people being driven out of their homelands like evicted tenants there….



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 32,336 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Seth Brundle


    proving my point about people being driven out of their homes like evicted tenants there….

    I haven't driven [sic] you anywhere nor have I done anything to drive other people out of their homes (you're being seriously melodramatic hre!). You made a decision to leave and I then posted a glib remark. Don't blame others for the decisions that you make!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,041 ✭✭✭ correct horse battery staple


    Part of this bypass is the removal of a stupid roundabout at an end to a motorway



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,041 ✭✭✭ correct horse battery staple


    What that have to do with this bypass? People live in rural Co Galway for centuries in a dispersed pattern since half the country was told to go to hell or to Connaught.

    People also live in county Galway and commute into city because if you take a minute to check daft or look around you find barely any new housing being build in last dozen plus years while population continues to increase (unlike Europe)

    The same build nothing anywhere de growth crowd object to houses too, not just roads. People can’t live on bikes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,161 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    Nobody ever asked about specific locations but here ya go.

    Barna is on the cards for a greenway/segregated lanes from there to the city. The first part of this is the trial bike lanes going into the prom this year.

    Moycullen is on the Clifden to Galway greenway route. Several sections are at various stages of design, planning, funding etc.

    Spiddal, I know they are looking to promote the WAW as a cycling tour but I've no idea if that includes segregated infrastructure or just paint or nothing at all. There's not a lot of detail on this yet as it's very early days.

    As for ebikes, that's an entirely personal choice. Personally I wouldn't get one for Barna - Galway but would for Spiddal - Galway. I did Spiddal hundreds of times when I was a young sprat (young love ahh) and I hated the stretch between Barna and Spiddal. It seemed like the wind was against you in both directions.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,382 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    I think that roundabout could be remove without building the GRR. For some reason the motorways always appear to end in a roundabout. M17 ends in Tuam in a roundabout - why?

    The Moneenageisha traffic lights were replaced with a roundabout and then the roundabout was replaced with traffic lights. Neither solved the traffic problems. Great bit of planning that.

    When they were working on the railway bridge on Lough Atalia Rd, they put in a one-way system that improved the traffic flow, and once the work finished they put back the poor traffic system. Great bit of planning that.

    I hope that if the GRR goes ahead, it does not turn out to be another example of Galway's great road planning.



  • Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭ KrisW1001


    @Sam Russell I think this shows that the problems in Galway are not caused by road capacity: each change to Moneenageisha increased the capacity of that junction, but very quickly the traffic overcame it.

    I see Galway’s primary problem being that people have no option except to commute by car. Public transport provision in Galway is tiny, and the dispersed population west of the city makes it hard to service with buses (plus, buses have to fight with other traffic, making them less attractive than sitting in the same traffic in your own car). If you gave me the budget, I’d run an fast light-rail along the coast here, with P+R parks at every stop: drive to the station, park for free, get the tram into town. It’ll be a better option for enough people that it would free up road space for those for whom driving is still the best (or only) option.

    As for the roundabouts, TII design guidelines suggest using roundabout junctions where the road standard changes (it’s explicitly part of the design standard for going from 2+2 to single-carriageway): I imagine a simple merge or tapering would result in traffic where drivers who were not paying attention to the end-of-motorway markers, and so are still travelling at 120km/h, mixing with those who were, and have slowed down. Sometimes, like at M9, the roundabout is a relic of a plan that has not happened. (I believe that M9 was to have continued seamlessly onto an updgraded N24, with that roundabout being the exit for N25)


    @SeaSlacker I have no idea what part of my post you’re referring to with the below. Care to elaborate?

    not a fan of wielding a stick to those who “can but won’t”. We “can but won’t” pay for healthcare. We “can but won’t” work. Bang of libertarian “f*ck those scum” off of it. No good politics comes from those that target those who “can but won’t”, because those who “can but won’t” are usually considered utter scum by the speaker.




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,049 ✭✭✭ SeaSlacker


    It’s the whole thing of focusing on those who “can but won’t” take a bus.


    When you focus on those who “can but won’t” work, you get “welfare cheats cheat us all”


    When you focus on those who “can but won’t” pay for their own healthcare, you get people denied healthcare who need it but can’t prove it to the accountant.


    What happens when we focus on those who “can but won’t” take public transport?


    Far better to have access to all, and then charge for the extravagances. Far easier to tell a car driver to pay for the privilege of driving a road than tell an ambulance to drive through a field & riverbed…



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,885 ✭✭✭ timmyntc


    Building better PT will mean that those who can't do anything but drive will hit less traffic - while the rest who can take advantage of mass transit, will, because its quicker/easier.

    Building a 600million euro road around the city to distribute traffic will not make things better, it will be overcome with traffic within 5 years and then the car drivers will be begging for another road!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,049 ✭✭✭ SeaSlacker


    Like how the papers are filled to the brim with “drivers” screaming blue murder about the DOOR M45 to replace the M50? Pull the other one…



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,885 ✭✭✭ timmyntc


    The papers were - how short is your memory?

    There was plenty of demand for an outer M50, but eventually it died off as more people realised the problem is distributor traffic. Exact same as Galway - problem is distributor traffic not bypass traffic. Its people trying to get into the city, or go from 1 part of the city to the other. Public transport should facilitate that, not more roads.



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