5/11/2008 - What a great day for Fianna Fail

Unshelved

Remember this day - it's the day that Fianna Fail managed to hide behind the US Election result and conveniently cover up some really damaging stories -

Government gives up cervical cancer vaccination
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1105/1225523373382.html

TD's trial hears man held as friend beaten
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1105/1225523372117.html

Fine and ban for drink-driving TD
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1105/1225523372130.html

Makes you really proud, doesn't it? :mad:

brianthebard

Sickening that they would give up the vaccination plan, whatever about the rest of the problems, there should be a minimum amount of policies that they are prepared to back no matter what and those policies should be in health and education.

Fratton Fred

They have no shame do they?

In the assualt charge the TD should resign if found guilty, which i doubt he will. In the drink driving case, what's the chances the tax payer will now be forking out for extra expenses so he can get a taxi everywhere and as for the cervical cancer vaccination....well, lets just be cynical and say 12 year old girls don't vote, so they are an easy target.

stevoman

personally i hold every person who voted fianna fail responsible.

Mr.Micro

It just goes to show what the FF Government is made of, as if we did not know.
What a turnabout the great FF party showing its true colours and its priorities, now hitting on young girls and do not have any solution. It will be a tax on communion money next. I hope the electorate remember that next election as the US electorate did and put the disasterous Bush and the Republicans out of office.

I note that Lenihan was disappointed that the AIB does not see any upturn its fortunes until 2011, as it is saddled with massive debt from its property developer clientele, who will be carried until 2011 and the debts not called in. The AIB is an amazing bank, only I have other words for it, which I will refrain from stating.

leninbenjamin

for all those who constantly give out about Fianna Fail being re-elected, remind me what was Kenny's solution to the current woes of health system? oh, now i remember... more beds. yes, that would surely have solved every problem we face.

ninty9er

leninbenjamin wrote: »

for all those who constantly give out about Fianna Fail being re-elected, remind me what was Kenny's solution to the current woes of health system? oh, now i remember... more beds. yes, that would surely have solved every problem we face.

We have lots of empty beds....we don't have enough people to staff them, or rather we have an overly dispersed hospital network, whichhampers the staffing of wards lying empty where services could be more efficiently administered.

Fratton Fred

I would have no problem with the cuts they are making, if they managed to make some serious cutbacks in some of the NGOs that are soaking up large sums of cash.

mike65

A good day to bury bad news.

What is it with FF and day in court? You cant keep them out of the place.

Mike

Darragh29

I'll tell ye what I think of Fianna Fail, I'd sooner let Garry Glittter open a creche than vote for this government to run the country for one more day, if I had the opportunity to have my say in the morning.

The Green's now are the party that should suffer, they should come under pressure from those who voted for them to pull the plug and let us have our say. Ring them, e-mail them, harrass them, get in their faces until they pull down this government that is jumping up and down on the heads of the people...

leninbenjamin

ninty9er wrote: »

We have lots of empty beds....we don't have enough people to staff them, or rather we have an overly dispersed hospital network, whichhampers the staffing of wards lying empty where services could be more efficiently administered.

yeah, but Kenny didn't seem to know this. which is why i'd put as much faith in a FG led govt as our current one. i.e. i've no faith in either.

jmayo

ninty9er wrote: »

We have lots of empty beds....we don't have enough people to staff them, or rather we have an overly dispersed hospital network, whichhampers the staffing of wards lying empty where services could be more efficiently administered.

But yet the number employed in the health care sector jumped from 144,000 in Mar-May 01 to 223,000 in Mar-May 08 (according to basic CSO stats).
So bertie, biffo and harney employed loads more people in helath care but they just weren't attendants, nurses, doctors it seems.

Efficient administration and healthcare are oxymorons when it comes to Ireland

But sure the ff way would be to employ even more administrators to try :rolleyes:

old boy

the biggest mistake is the cutbacks in education, any countrys future is its children and youth, if we have the uneducated where will the foregin investment come from, every company that invests here speak of a highly educated work force, who will require an uneducated work force,

old boy

ninty9er wrote: »

We have lots of empty beds....we don't have enough people to staff them, or rather we have an overly dispersed hospital network, whichhampers the staffing of wards lying empty where services could be more efficiently administered.

we dont have enough people to staff them because we do not hire them, how many times have we been told that front line people are being dispersed with, for economic reasons

ninty9er

old boy wrote: »

the biggest mistake is the cutbacks in education, any countrys future is its children and youth, if we have the uneducated where will the foregin investment come from, every company that invests here speak of a highly educated work force, who will require an uneducated work force,

Nobody mentioned cutting the quality....just more kids in a classroom.

conceited

they should all be ****ed into jail the bastards are useless.

Boggle

Nobody mentioned cutting the quality....just more kids in a classroom.

Unfortunately, largerr classrooms are unsuitable to both the kids who need the extra attention AND the smart kids who need a faster pace to avoid boredom.
i don't know how a teacher can possibly strike a balance for such a large amount of people and, given that these smart kids are the future of our (knowledge!) economy, this is going to result in the country's return to poverty.

There are those however who say that we all had large classes and we were alright - although our population was too dumb to see the mess FF was making of the country so I don't really agree with them.

SeanW

ninty9er wrote: »

Nobody mentioned cutting the quality....just more kids in a classroom.

I see the FF Press Corps have trained you well ...

jmayo

ninty9er wrote: »

Nobody mentioned cutting the quality....just more kids in a classroom.

f***ing priceless.
Has to be quote of the day on this forum.

Quality of teaching each child experiences has nothing to do with numbers being taught ?

Here is an argument you forgot to use.
The more kids in a classroom, the more bodyheat and thus the less fuel bills :rolleyes:

eoinbn

leninbenjamin wrote: »

yeah, but Kenny didn't seem to know this. which is why i'd put as much faith in a FG led govt as our current one. i.e. i've no faith in either.

IIRC they wanted more "step down beds" to free up backlogs in certain departments, especially A&E. I don't know much about the health service, but it is something that it had been requesting for years, so lets not dumb it down as just buying beds to solve the problem.

the biggest mistake is the cutbacks in education, any countrys future is its children and youth, if we have the uneducated where will the foregin investment come from, every company that invests here speak of a highly educated work force, who will require an uneducated work force,

***The money just isn't there***. We are in a recession and we have a massive deficit. Spending needs to be cut and taxs need to be raised to combat it. Taxs were raised, so what about cuts?
Let me use an abstract example. Your a single mother that has fell on hard times. Money is short, there is no food in the home, your child is sick and needs a new school book. Where would you cut back?

Macha

eoinbh, are you aware of the millions and millions of €€ that have been handed to builders in this budget.

To use your own analogy, a single money that has fallen on hard times and has no food at home does not go out and give all the money she does have to her friend, bob the builder.

ninty9er

jmayo wrote: »

f***ing priceless.
Has to be quote of the day on this forum.

Quality of teaching each child experiences has nothing to do with numbers being taught ?

Here is an argument you forgot to use.
The more kids in a classroom, the more bodyheat and thus the less fuel bills :rolleyes:

Ah grow up...I always said, even with the governments planned reduction in class sizes that it wasn't necessary to have less than 30/32 kids in a classroom. Of course the building conditions will have a bearing on this too.

I've had this discussion with friends of mine training to be teachers.

The issue isn't the amount of kids, it's the motivation of the teacher to get to all of the kids so that they are all the smart kid.

This is an issue of commitment and control, rather than resources. The best teachers are the ones that actually do a full day's work (i.e stay until 5 [after all they do get a full day's pay] and work with the kids that need extra help). While this is not the norm, it is certainly becoming more predominant in maths and science subjects particularly.

eoinbn

taconnol wrote: »

eoinbh, are you aware of the millions and millions of €€ that have been handed to builders in this budget.

To use your own analogy, a single money that has fallen on hard times and has no food at home does not go out and give all the money she does have to her friend, bob the builder.

I know that they set aside ~€500m to help developers move some of their houses but without knowing more details it's hard to know reasons behind it. The developers have the banks by the balls and the banks are guaranteed by the government so maybe the government is just trying to bail itself out!

Anyway this is well OT!

jmayo

ninty9er wrote: »

Ah grow up...I always said, even with the governments planned reduction in class sizes that it wasn't necessary to have less than 30/32 kids in a classroom. Of course the building conditions will have a bearing on this too.

I've had this discussion with friends of mine training to be teachers.

The issue isn't the amount of kids, it's the motivation of the teacher to get to all of the kids so that they are all the smart kid.

This is an issue of commitment and control, rather than resources. The best teachers are the ones that actually do a full day's work (i.e stay until 5 [after all they do get a full day's pay] and work with the kids that need extra help). While this is not the norm, it is certainly becoming more predominant in maths and science subjects particularly.

No you grow up, becuase you are the one living in cloud cuckoo la la land if you think that an extra few kids in a class room will not make any difference.
Have you ever been a teacher, a lecturer, a TA or anything else bar a student who spends most of his time as a mouthpiece for ff ?

Yes in the great mythical world of ff education, all the kids will be smart because all the teachers will be wonderful and all the kids will be wonderful and well behaved.
FFS this sounds like some sh*** Dev came out with back in the 30s.

Wipee you have talked to friends who are training to be teachers. Would they be in Mary I or would that be Thomond? Would they be sweaties, wellies or chippies ?
What fu**ing experience have they, oh a few months work placement and of course they know it all.
It is all about motivation :rolleyes:

Why don't you talk to people that are teachers, particualrly in disadvantaged areas or people that were teachers all their bloody lives ?
Ask them and then come back to us.

PS when you are in charge of a bunch of 4 year olds and you add a few more then see what a difference it makes.

Macha

Wow.Training to be teachers. They must have so much experience in the field..oh wait.

Actual, credible research in the field, as opposed to random anecdotal evidence clearly shows that smaller class sizes increase academic achievement and the likelihood of the class members attending college(1) and improve teacher-pupil interaction which previous research has shown to be positively correlated with increased pupil achievement (2)

1. Finna, Jeremy et al. "Small Classes in the Early Grades, Academic Achievement, and Graduating From High School"

2. Hargreaves et al. "The effects of changes in class size on teacher–pupil interaction"

eoinbn-if you can't understand the reasons behind FF's builder bail out in the budget, I really don't know what to say..

ninty9er

taconnol wrote: »

Wow.Training to be teachers. They must have so much experience in the field..oh wait.

Do you enjoy being condescending?....actually....never mind:rolleyes:

Yes, Imagine, they've already spent more time teaching in classrooms and outside of them than Brian Lenihan has spent as Minister for Finance

I'm all for research, but are any of those people teachers. If not I have no time for their opinions.

Macha

ninty9er wrote: »

Do you enjoy being condescending?....actually....never mind:rolleyes:

Yes, Imagine, they've already spent more time teaching in classrooms and outside of them than Brian Lenihan has spent as Minister for Finance

I'm all for research, but are any of those people teachers. If not I have no time for their opinions.

sorry, been watching too much Daily show

In fairness, you are throwing all credibility away for choosing to believe the anecdotal opinions of some of your teacher-training friends over peer-reviewed, published research articles by people who may well by teachers. Sorry, there's just no arguing with people who refuse to believe things they don't want to believe.

SeanW

ninty9er wrote: »

Yes, Imagine, they've already spent more time teaching in classrooms and outside of them than Brian Lenihan has spent as Minister for Finance

I'm all for research, but are any of those people teachers. If not I have no time for their opinions.

[translation]I'm all for scientific examination and research, as long as the results don't show up the REAL experts[/translation]

ninty9er

Guillemette, Y "School Class Size:
Smaller Isn’t Better"

OECD "Education
at a Glance
OECD INDICATORS
C o u n t r y P r o f i l e f o r C a n a d a"

We could throw conflicting research around all day, but I'm not going to change your view and you're not going to change mine.

Macha

No the difference is, I accept that teacher quality is a factor but you won't accept that class size is also a factor. As the great Bertrand Russell said:

"If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way."

I don't know why I took this off my sig. I have cause to use it every time I come on here

xOxSinéadxOx

plus we have a ridiculous amount of crap teachers so it's not as if we have the quality

ninty9er

taconnol wrote: »

No the difference is, I accept that teacher quality is a factor but you won't accept that class size is also a factor. As the great Bertrand Russell said:

"If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way."

I don't know why I took this off my sig. I have cause to use it every time I come on here

If there's 50 kids in a class it's too big...40 is pushing it, but just because the internatioanl average is lower than ours doesn't mean we have too many kids in our classrooms, or if you want me to put it more plainly in a manner which every Irish person understands.

If our personal tax burden is much lower than the international average, is our tax burden too low? (the answer is yes, but not to the extent that the extreme scaremongers would have you believe)

I don't believe 30 kids in a class is too many.

However if there are 15 kids over 3 yeargroups in a class with one teacher, then that IS too many.

Macha

I don't compare it to general international levels. I compare it to European levels and we have among the largest class sizes in Europe.

I'm glad you feel qualified enough to decide what an acceptable class size is and what isn't. Can I ask what exactly you are using to find those figures, or are you just pulling them out of the air like I suspect?

Like it or not, many governments, including this one, use class size as one indicator (among others) of a good quality education system. They are not arguing that class size doesn't matter because it would be completely hypocritical of them.

ninty9er

taconnol wrote: »

I don't compare it to general international levels. I compare it to European levels and we have among the largest class sizes in Europe.

I'm glad you feel qualified enough to decide what an acceptable class size is and what isn't. Can I ask what exactly you are using to find those figures, or are you just pulling them out of the air like I suspect?

Like it or not, many governments, including this one, use class size as one indicator (among others) of a good quality education system. They are not arguing that class size doesn't matter because it would be completely hypocritical of them.

Size however, much like essay length, has nothing to do with quality.

Macha

That's not entirely true.

Heinrich

In the "Good Old Days" there were indeed large classes. But then again there was far more discipline, what with the teachers and their canes, leather straps and sundry sticks to maintain order. Then if a comment came home to the parents there was more retribution for not working in class.

Today we have a severe lack of discipline and fat, lazy square eyed brats to contend with. Beside, we were promised smaller classes and buzz words suck as "best practice", "World class", "state of the art" etc. were floating around the chamber like a snowstorm! Now it's outside influences and the global downturn when the dogs in the street know damn well that the money was squandered. 166 TDs, junior ministers, advisors, quangos and the like to produce this current train wreck. They never saw it coming but that is what they are being overpaid to do.