Mary rides again, on our long suffering backs.

Hagar

Why is Mary Harney still Minister for Health?

RTE News wrote:

A HSE review of mistakes in two hospitals in the northeast shows that some patients had their lung cancer diagnosis delayed by up to 14 months.
Of the nine patients affected, eight have since died.
In one tragic case, a significant chance of a cure through surgery was missed due to the mistake.

Problems were first notified to the local HSE in September last year.
Eight months later, the executive announced a full look back and notified the families concerned.
That review involved thousands of x-rays and other scans taken at Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, Drogheda, and Our Lady's Hospital in Navan between August 2006 and August 2008.
The review says that the delays had 'varying impacts on these patient's care and treatment options'.
This includes lost opportunities to provide cures, additional life span and earlier palliative care.
The delays also led to worry, uncertainty and distress for the families and reduced time for them to come to terms with the impending death of their loved ones.
Consultant 'devastated'

In today's 60-page report, released by the HSE on its website, the temporary consultant radiologist concerned said he was devastated by the findings and wished to apologise to the families for the anguish and sorrow caused.
Following the publication of the report today, the HSE said they were going to enhance clinical governance in the radiology in the five hospitals in the northeast.
The review of 5,835 x-rays and 67 CT scans found that the majority of patients did not require further treatment.
A total of 4,628 patients need no action while 270 had a problem that should have been reported but the fact that it was not does not have any clinical significance.
A total of 29 patients could not be retrieved and were the subject of a separate follow up.
Today's report of the review also reveals that 179 letters were sent to patients who had died, causing distress to their families and relatives.
The HSE had engaged a mailing company to undertake the postal communications given the logistical challenge.

I'm intrigued how they couldn't cope with the mail.. A logistical challenge they claim. Then they send them to the dead. So some outside firm got a nice little earner to send out a few letters. Who I wonder?

Sweet Jesus how long will this go on?

What would have to go wrong in the Health Services for a Minister to resign?
Answers on a postcard to...

jmayo

Hagar wrote: »

Why is Mary Harney still Minister for Health?


I'm intrigued how they couldn't cope with the mail.. A logistical challenge they claim. Then they send them to the dead. So some outside firm got a nice little earner to send out a few letters. Who I wonder?

Sweet Jesus how long will this go on?

What would have to go wrong in the Health Services for a Minister to resign?
Answers on a postcard to...

Hey Hagar do you mind if we come and stay with you if we get sick ?
At least you live somewhere that appears to give a sh** about people's health.
Vive la France.
Speaking of France, didn't they use a guillotine to get rid of leeching useless overloards ?
It has become impossible for anyone to seek the removal of a minister however incompetent, actually the more incompetent the better your chances of remaining in office.
Also there are rumours they are changing the constitution so that they are now elected for life.

It might be funny if it wasn't for the fact that people are dying because of the incompetence and ineptitude of the people that work in our health service.

ednwireland

i thought she was the wrong person for the job from day one. all this backhanded dismantling of the health service bringing in more and more top heavy organistaions i really dont beleive its all due to incompetance. i really think ff wanted to privatise all health but knew they wouldnt get away with it so make it so bad its done by default.
she doesnt seem to nave an ounce of compassion or care

god i'm a cynic

Bob Z

i think they gave her the job because its so unpopular so people will blame the PDs when things wrong. (although i think she did ask for it too)

I wonder what will happen now that they are finished..?

seamus

She seemed to be doing OK during her first term and I could understand why FF were eager to let her "finish the job" so to speak. But since the government have gotten into power it's all just fallen apart.

The continued unwillingness to break the consultants and actually require the HSE to account for itself has left everything in a shambles.

We badly need a government who's not afraid to crush the public sector into shape. Harney nor anyone else in Government at the moment have the competence to do that effectively, never mind the will.

Boggle

Seumas, with respect, she was crap in her previous post and she was crap in this - the only difference between her first term and now is the media's reporting of things (they don't like her anymore).

She took on a vested interest? Not really - she had a go at gagging consultants to prevent lawsuits and that as far as her interst lies. That and, in my opinion, eying up opportunities for the husband.
Jesus a retarded donkey with braces would make more sense than that woman.

seamus

Boggle wrote: »

Seumas, with respect, she was crap in her previous post and she was crap in this - the only difference between her first term and now is the media's reporting of things (they don't like her anymore).

Perhaps that's it. I didn't take much of an interest in politics during college, which would have been most of her time.

Permabear

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Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Villain

I posted here about 3 years ago how the PD's had far too much power for such a small mandate, at that time Harney had the Health portfolio and McDowell had the Justice portfolio and while Justice is back with FF Health remains with Harney who is soon to be an independent.

IMO the ONLY reason she is still Minister for Health is no-one in FF wants the job and the leadership of FF wants to leave Mary with the job so they can distance themselves from the mess of the health service.

PS there is a vote on the Cervical Cancer vaccine been withdrawn in the Dail today or Tomorrow.

oscarBravo

seamus wrote: »

The continued unwillingness to break the consultants and actually require the HSE to account for itself has left everything in a shambles.

Graphically illustrated here.

Macha

Jesus, oscarBravo - that post was horrible.

Mr.Micro

PS there is a vote on the Cervical Cancer vaccine been withdrawn in the Dail today or Tomorrow.

If any of the Government TD's have a conscience and the Independents then the withdrawal of the vaccine will be voted down, but that will not happen.


The HSE is entrenched and like all the state/semi state bodies or quangos in Ireland, they act or operate with little regulation or accountability. Mary Harney has a tough job, impossible even, and she will continue to take the blame for the incompetence of the HSE through all the areas of health care, all because she has failed to clear out all the excess and middle managers and incompetents medical and executive.

Mr.Micro

I just saw a snippet on the RTE news at one and Cowan looks rattled pointing the finger at Kenny, absolutely no decorum, it is like a bar room argument that is likely to descend into a brawl in the Dail. Cowan needs to wise up, he is not the smug Deputy leader he appeared under the leadership of of Bertie, that luxury has gone, and now he is in the firing line and he is struggling.

Villain

I heard a small bit on the radio and he sounded under pressure alright, he really isn't doing anything for the bully image. Must watch oireachtas report tonight.

seamus

Villain wrote: »

I heard a small bit on the radio and he sounded under pressure alright, he really isn't doing anything for the bully image. Must watch oireachtas report tonight.

I still feel sorry for the poor fecker. He's like the first mate who was asked to take the wheel while the Captain took a life raft and jumped overboard.

El Stuntman

seamus wrote: »

I still feel sorry for the poor fecker. He's like the first mate who was asked to take the wheel while the Captain took a life raft and jumped overboard.

feck that - he was Minister for Finance for four years while the writing was on the wall and he did nothing to correct the housing bubble that is the primary cause of our current travails. Also he didn't confront Bertie over his crookedness, instead defending him at every turn.

He deserves all he gets imo

bring on the next election and the demise of FF

SeanW

But the real mess was made by Charlie McCreevy. Decentralisation was his baby as was those brain dead SSIA accounts (most nicely timed to mature just before the 2007 election ... funny that), and his budgets were inflationary vote grabbers, with ever expanding expenses based on boom time financing, and multi-annual sales of state companies. During this time, very little investment was made in important things like public transportation, the school rebuilding scheme and so on. Our broadband infrastructure is one of the worst in Europe because it's held by a company that doesn't give a crap about our service standards (McCreevy's sell off) and we can't bring any experts in because of course the Dept of Communications is now in Cavan where no IT engineer wants to move (McCreevy's decentralisation).

While the "Celtic Tiger" was dying and handing over to a housing bubble, in the early 2000s, McCreevy etc did sod all to stop our costs running out of control, 15% per annum rises in property prices, young men paying €5,000 a year for car insurance, communications costs etc all went out of control and killed any advantages we had in the 1990s.

I always hated that dipstick and I hold him primarily responsible for this mess - I saw it coming as far back as 2002.

Biffo may be a useless clown, but he was handed a poison chalice, the two that REALLY made the mess (Ahern and McCreevy) have since F@#%ed off and left the new FFs to clean up their mess. There is little for Biffo etc to do now but take painful austerity measures, hopefully look to get some real efficiency from the public services and try to scare up some spare change to invest in things like schools and railways and communications infrastructure.

podge79

all the FF ministers are to blame... nobody said or did squat for fear of rocking the boat and horror of horrors losing their ministerial post.. they are more concerned with getting re-elected and their own prestige and what their historical biographies will say then serving the needs of the people and the nation

Mr.Micro

He stands up in the Dail and believes the screening system for women is good enough over the vaccination. So many other countries will introduce the vaccine, but Cowen, now a scientist, believes that smear screening is enough. Has he forgotten the debacle with HSE screening? What a plonker, he defending the indefensible in an area, science, that he has clearly no knowledge. Just say the Government cannot afford it and leave it at that, instead of trying to justify an already inadequate screening system. :rolleyes:

jmayo

SeanW wrote: »

But the real mess was made by Charlie McCreevy. Decentralisation was his baby as was those brain dead SSIA accounts (most nicely timed to mature just before the 2007 election ... funny that), and his budgets were inflationary vote grabbers, with ever expanding expenses based on boom time financing, and multi-annual sales of state companies. During this time, very little investment was made in important things like public transportation, the school rebuilding scheme and so on. Our broadband infrastructure is one of the worst in Europe because it's held by a company that doesn't give a crap about our service standards (McCreevy's sell off) and we can't bring any experts in because of course the Dept of Communications is now in Cavan where no IT engineer wants to move (McCreevy's decentralisation).

While the "Celtic Tiger" was dying and handing over to a housing bubble, in the early 2000s, McCreevy etc did sod all to stop our costs running out of control, 15% per annum rises in property prices, young men paying €5,000 a year for car insurance, communications costs etc all went out of control and killed any advantages we had in the 1990s.

I always hated that dipstick and I hold him primarily responsible for this mess - I saw it coming as far back as 2002.

Biffo may be a useless clown, but he was handed a poison chalice, the two that REALLY made the mess (Ahern and McCreevy) have since F@#%ed off and left the new FFs to clean up their mess. There is little for Biffo etc to do now but take painful austerity measures, hopefully look to get some real efficiency from the public services and try to scare up some spare change to invest in things like schools and railways and communications infrastructure.

Hang on now, stop laying all the blame at McCreevy's feet.
Was Biffo not responsible for continuing section 23s, section 50s etc which just kept the housing bubble going, if anything it gained further momentum under Biffo ?
Who the hell did they think would live in all these houses that were being built in small villages in Leitrim, Roscommon etc ?
Did he have no control over Central Bank and Financial Regulator ?
Why did they allow banks to become over involved in construction related lending ?

He was in charge and he kept spending going based on revenue returns from an industry that most sane people believed could not be sustained.

He didn't suddenly inherit a problem, he helped create it over the years upto 2006/2007.
It is funny how the current FFers would have you believe it was everything and anything that got us into this mess, but it had absolutely nothing to do with them :rolleyes:

It sounds like a kid who, when all the ice cream in the fridge was eaten blamed his baby sister, then the boy door and eventually blamed his imaginary friend. I can't wait to find out who Biffos imaginary friend is

nesf

jmayo wrote: »

Did he have no control over Central Bank and Financial Regulator ?

Just on this point, he should have no control over our Central Bank. Independence in the Central Bank, and to an extent the Financial Regulator is very important. Otherwise you're just opening it up to potential corruption and cronyism from the political establishment.

Villain

Just watched the debate on the private members bill Deputy O'Reilly made very good points, Barry Andrews wanted to have a go at a FG member rather than debate the issue,

The vote is now taking place.

Villain

The vote went 75-65 for the Vaccine to be withdrawn, get onto every Government TD you know and ask them to justify that decision!! A disgrace a total disgrace.

Macha

Villain wrote: »

The vote went 75-65 for the Vaccine to be withdrawn, get onto every Government TD you know and ask them to justify that decision!! A disgrace a total disgrace.

Is there a list of who voted which way? I want to make sure my anger is pointed in the right direction!

Villain

Credit to Jim McDaid he abstained: http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1112/politics.html

Villain

taconnol wrote: »

Is there a list of who voted which way? I want to make sure my anger is pointed in the right direction!

No but the monitor didn't show any Nil on the Government side, McDaid abstained all others voted to withdraw the vaccine.

The Ceann Comhairle just said it 76-65 so margin of 11

podge79

taconnol wrote: »

Is there a list of who voted which way? I want to make sure my anger is pointed in the right direction!

it should be up on the oireachtas website tomorrow... they normally put up all the debates and how the td's voted... though they might axe the IT guy to save a few bob...

Villain

Joe Behan voted with the Government on this one!!!

billy the squid

Villain wrote: »

Joe Behan voted with the Government on this one!!!

the ****er knows that come the next election the 12 year olds needing the vaccine will be only 17 and inelligable to vote. different story with the over 70s who he defended to the hilt.

ednwireland

Villain wrote: »

Credit to Jim McDaid he abstained: http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1112/politics.html

i give him more credit if he had voted against that would have taken real courage

grahamo

Villain wrote: »

The vote went 75-65 for the Vaccine to be withdrawn, get onto every Government TD you know and ask them to justify that decision!! A disgrace a total disgrace.

Totally agree! I hope the TD's that voted for the government have the balls to explain their actions to their constituents. A lot of these arrogant feckers still don't realise that they work for US! I hope everyone e-mails their local TD to ask about yesterday's voting.

The Insider

Have to say I would be going against the grain here and defending Harney. I think she has been the best health minister in my living memory. I think she was hindered when she couldn't get the person she wanted to head up the HSE, I don't think Drumm is up to the job.

Through my own personal experiences I have seen an improvement in the health services. Had no private health care and injured my knee, before the National Treatment Purchase Fund the waiting times though public health care for the operation I needed was anything between 18 - 24 months.

Was on the waiting list for 3 months which entitled me to go through the purchase fund, was seen by the top orthopedic surgeon in the country, had my operation in the Mater private all under my public health care and within 4 months of contacting the purchase fund. Its a fantastic scheme and is a major improvement.

I have also been in A&E(in both Beaumount and the Mater public) in relation to some health problems my family and I have had on numerous occasions in the past 2 years. There has been a continuous improvement in the waiting times, indeed the last time I was in there I was seen to (including a number of tests, x-ray etc) within 2 hours.

Change in the Health sector will take years as its being in a bad state for decades, I suspect history will look back favourably on Harney as the person who finally sorted out the health service mess.

Villain

The Insider wrote: »

Have to say I would be going against the grain here and defending Harney. I think she has been the best health minister in my living memory. I think she was hindered when she couldn't get the person she wanted to head up the HSE, I don't think Drumm is up to the job.

Through my own personal experiences I have seen an improvement in the health services. Had no private health care and injured my knee, before the National Treatment Purchase Fund the waiting times though public health care for the operation I needed was anything between 18 - 24 months.

Was on the waiting list for 3 months which entitled me to go through the purchase fund, was seen by the top orthopedic surgeon in the country, had my operation in the Mater private all under my public health care and within 4 months of contacting the purchase fund. Its a fantastic scheme and is a major improvement.

I have also been in A&E(in both Beaumount and the Mater public) in relation to some health problems my family and I have had on numerous occasions in the past 2 years. There has been a continuous improvement in the waiting times, indeed the last time I was in there I was seen to (including a number of tests, x-ray etc) within 2 hours.

Change in the Health sector will take years as its being in a bad state for decades, I suspect history will look back favourably on Harney as the person who finally sorted out the health service mess.

The problem Insider is she hasn't sorted it out and she wasn't abel to sort it during years of massize rises in GDP with surplus budgets so now that we have come to the downturn where spending has to be reduced I really can't see how she will be able to sort the system

Some in-roads have been made in some areas but many many issues still excist, an elderly family friend just spent 2 days on a trolley in A&E with a broken hip.

MRSA is still a huge problem along with many more problems, the vaccine is just one example and remember this Vaccine was announced just last August, what does it tell you that Harney could announce this then only 3 months later pull it back, they can't even manage their finances for that kind of time frame.

A little bit done a hell of a lot more to do imo

Macha

Sorry TheInsider, but factual and statistical analysis is more relevant than personal anecdotal evidence.

The Insider

taconnol wrote: »

Sorry TheInsider, but factual and statistical analysis is more relevant than personal anecdotal evidence.

Fair enough, have a read of this then whilst it shows there are huge areas to make improvement on, I think it shows that improvement is being made:

http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/general/14236769/?view=Standard

Irish healthcare system rated 15th in Europe

on Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:12:41

Ireland's healthcare system is now ranked as having the 15th most consumer-friendly healthcare system in Europe, up one place on last year, according to a new study.

The 2008 Euro Health Consumer Index (EHCI), which was launched today in Brussels, shows the Netherlands leading the ranking of 31 countries with a score of 839 points out of a possible 1,000. It is followed by Denmark, Austria, Luxemburg and Sweden.

In six categories, covering 34 performance indicators, Ireland scored 643 points out of a possible 1,000, placing it at 15th in the rankings. These six categories cover waiting times for treatment, e-health, outcomes, patient’s rights and information and the range and reach of services.

In 2006, there was public outcry when Ireland was ranked 25th out of 26th states for its healthcare system in the index.

Ireland was ranked bottom of the rankings last year when it came to waiting times for patients to access services.

According to the latest rankings, there have been significant improvements in waiting times over the last few years with Ireland scoring highly for waiting times for major not-acute operations in particular. However, Ireland scored poorly for direct access to specialists, cancer therapy and MRI scans.

"The Health Service Executive (HSE) reform seems to have started improving a historically dismal performance. The severe waiting list problems seem to be improving, and so are outcomes," the report said.

“We can notice some improvements with regards to outcomes, which is always considered the most vital area of the index,” added Dr Arne Bjornberg, research director for the EHCI.

Nonetheless, the report authors suggested that more should be done to cut waiting times for most treatments. It also recommended the introduction of a patient’s rights law and said that Ireland should make more inroads in terms of e-health.

First published in 2005, the EHCI is sourced from public statistics and independent research.

Permabear

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The Insider

Out of the 3 areas that we scored poorly in the above report (direct access to specialists, cancer therapy and MRI scans). Cancer therapy and direct access to specialists are the two things Harney is tackling now with the new consultants contracts and the new cancer specialist units.

Macha

The Insider wrote: »

Ireland's healthcare system is now ranked as having the 15th most consumer-friendly healthcare system in Europe, up one place on last year, according to a new study.

15th out of 31st means we're right in the middle - not very good, considering we're one of the richest nations on the list. I mean other countries on the list include Romania, Estonia, etc.

I accept things are improving-thanks for the report

The removal of the vaccine programme is a step backwards, not only because more women will contract HPV and go onto develop cancer but also because it is a sign of:
a) the lack of preventative medicine
b) the total stupidity and inability of this government to think 5-10 years ahead.

ALFIET

I am sorry. There is no justification for the situation that this country finds itself in in terms of health

Mary promised cervical cancer vaccines in August... 2008 not 2000.... She and the govt knew that the recession was taking hold... 6 weeks later they reverse their decision, go back on their word.

They have lost all sense of credibility. Do they understand or care about the common joe soap.

They can find 10 million no problem and have done when needed when the depts simply made a few small changes

Who is the Govt listening to in terms of advice.

This is NOT an Ireland I am proud of ...

jmayo

nesf wrote: »

Just on this point, he should have no control over our Central Bank. Independence in the Central Bank, and to an extent the Financial Regulator is very important. Otherwise you're just opening it up to potential corruption and cronyism from the political establishment.

I thought the Central Bank was meant to be an arm of Dept of Finance in that it could set rates etc at the behest of government ?
There has to be some interaction between government and Central Bank, otherwise how can government ever dictate any policy?

Well Mr Financial Regulator was supposedly independent, but to most people he just looked like a bank lackie.

Villain wrote: »

Joe Behan voted with the Government on this one!!!

Ah yes I can wait to see the reaction he gets next time he is campaigning in Bray.
He is just another f***er that still wants to be in the party.
Some conscience he has.
He didn't have a conscience previously about schools with poor buidling or water charges when he quiet happily ran on the FF ticket.
Then he suddenly found it reprehensible that pensioners and children were being tragetted in the budget, but low and behold he doesn't see anything wrong with allowing a few 12 year old girls get cervical cancer 20 years from now when it could be prevented :rolleyes:

Yeah real nice guy who stands by his principles :rolleyes:

ednwireland wrote: »

i give him more credit if he had voted against that would have taken real courage

Yeah if McDaid really wanted to show his true courage why not vote against the government's proposal.
Another show about making a stand.

nesf

jmayo wrote: »

I thought the Central Bank was meant to be an arm of Dept of Finance in that it could set rates etc at the behest of government ?
There has to be some interaction between government and Central Bank, otherwise how can government ever dictate any policy?

You're presuming that we would want the Government to be dictating Central Bank policy which isn't a given. There are sound economic reasons to favour independent central banks like the ECB and the Bundesbank of old. Google it, there's a broad and varied literature on the subject.