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Marriage

  • 04-11-2008 6:17pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭


    Hi
    I'm just wondering what people's views are on marriage.

    I've found the person I want to spend my life with but I don't want to get married. I don't see the need for it or point of it. I am willing to commit myself to this person but I don't need a piece of paper or a priest to make me promise or to make it legal. I hope that I will always love this person but I can't read the future, if something drastic happens and things don't work out I don't want to feel stressed by legal/ money/ religious issues. The heart and love in general are not very rational things and I don't think anyone can promise to love someone forever.
    Some advantages of getting married would be tax breaks and the splitting of assets in the case of divorce, custody issues etc. These things don't really matter to me, I'd prefer to remain as an individual who chooses to live and stay with another person on my own terms. Could anyone give me any other good reasons for getting married: both in the religious way or just the legal way.
    Thanks


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    I am not pro or anti marriage but I am going to give you a plus side to marriage since that is what you are asking for.

    A marriage ceremony is a community celebration and acknowledgement of two people, coming together to begin a life together as a family. A marriage should, also, therefore imo, gives to the community.

    The piece of paper does not make you do anything, it articulates what you have chosen to do.

    Adult love is a choice. The buzz, the rosy lenses, that will all end, but the remainder is choice, and that yes, you can promise to do. And so can she.

    If you want to stay with someone on your own terms, then no you should not get married, but then you probably shouldnt be with that person either. It's all about how you can negotiate change. Because you will change, she will change, the marriage will change, and so will the world around you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,456 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    Have you talked to your partner about this? If not, do it first before convincing yourself of this or that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 726 ✭✭✭abi2007


    I agree, your partner might have strong reasons to get married.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭pretty-in-pink


    Being officially married (be it in a Church wedding or a reg office, or whatever really) gives you more protection and rights in teh eyes of the law as you are legaly bound.

    I'm pro-marriage personally, for the romantic reasons, but those aside its a very practical choice, to have security for you, your potential spouse and any children you might have. If you have made the decision to spend the rest of your life together, then why not do the marriage thing? It will make very little day to day practical difference, it will only add an extra layer of security for you both (should something bad happen). Weddings don't have to be madly expensive, and you've already done the hard part- finding the one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,846 ✭✭✭barbiegirl


    Marriage is about making a committment to work through and support one another no matter what life might throw at you. It seems to make people work harder at getting over the bad times.
    Whilst I'm unsure whether you're male or female, in the event of a split it gives the father rights that he won't have if unmarried. That is important.
    Also it gives your partner the right to make medical decisions for you in the event that you can't and also protects them in terms of your assets should one of you die.
    Remember no relationship is about staying on your terms, that doesn't work, it's about compromise, hard work, trust, reliance on one another and yes, love, though that changes as time goes along from the hot and heavy to the calmer and deeper.
    Please make sure you talk to your partner because for some people a refusal to get married is a deal breaker.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Crea


    The practical side of marriage:

    You don't have to pay inheritance tax on anything your partner leaves you on their death which you do have to pay if you aren't married including the value of their share of any property jointly owned.
    You have automatic rights of inheritance if one or other dies.
    The man has automatic guardianship rights to children in the relationship which unmarried fathers don't have

    If you don't marry but buy a house and have kids you are looking at alot of legal wrangling anyway regarding division of assets and custody. It's not as easy as just walking away when things don't work out. I think marriage gives some rights which are important if things go tits up.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    marriage - as someone who is separated - I never really believed in marriage, didn't think it was necessary - had children and got married after having them both, as a statement of love for my partner and my children - shortly after marriage my (ex) wife decided to have an affair - Am very glad now that we got married for the protection it gives me as regards access rights to my children - yes it means I have maintenance responsibilities - But I think those aspects are important - For a relationship between two adults solely I do not think marriage has any relevance as an expression of love - It and commitment to each other can be expressed in so many other ways.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    I am not pro or anti marriage but I am going to give you a plus side to marriage since that is what you are asking for.

    A marriage ceremony is a community celebration and acknowledgement of two people, coming together to begin a life together as a family. A marriage should, also, therefore imo, gives to the community.

    The piece of paper does not make you do anything, it articulates what you have chosen to do.

    Adult love is a choice. The buzz, the rosy lenses, that will all end, but the remainder is choice, and that yes, you can promise to do. And so can she.

    If you want to stay with someone on your own terms, then no you should not get married, but then you probably shouldnt be with that person either. It's all about how you can negotiate change. Because you will change, she will change, the marriage will change, and so will the world around you.
    I don't see how any of this is a 'plus' side to marriage, they're are plus to the person who actually wants marriage, but not of the marriage itself.

    The real plus are the legal ones, as in rights as a parent and partner and taxes. That's about it, the rest is just wishy washy crap.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    "A marriage ceremony is a community celebration and acknowledgement of two people, coming together to begin a life together as a family. A marriage should, also, therefore imo, gives to the community."

    I like the celebration part, I don't really see two people as a family, I'd prefer to see them as two individuals.

    "Adult love is a choice. The buzz, the rosy lenses, that will all end, but the remainder is choice, and that yes, you can promise to do. And so can she."

    I'm a girl and I don't see the point of agreeing/ promising definitively. Will I stay with a person for better or worse? No I won't if we drift apart or he doesn't treat me the way I wanted to be treated etc. I don't see these things happening but I think its a bit hypocritical and naive to assume or promise that they definitely won't.

    "If you want to stay with someone on your own terms, then no you should not get married, but then you probably shouldnt be with that person either."

    I meant in terms of being viewed by the law or religion or other people. I didn't mean everything has to be my way.I just meant its our relationship, the law, the state, the church or community have no say in it and should have nothing to do with it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Confab wrote: »
    Have you talked to your partner about this? If not, do it first before convincing yourself of this or that.

    I have talked to him about it a good deal and made my views very clear. He isn't happy about it. he thinks that not getting married means theres no goal, we'd just be going out forever. He goes on about the legal and financial benefits, but they really don't mean anything to me. I suggested a commitment ceremony but he said that was hippie-ish and that no one does that.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    I undestand all your arguments about the need to not get married, but why are you acting so scared of it?

    I apologise if this sounds critical, but I generally find that when people trot out a whole range of reasons not to do something, then it means that they are scared of it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    If you feel that way then you probably shouldn't get married. But don't expect your bf to stick around.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,106 ✭✭✭turbot


    In our entertainment - stimulation society, I think that people need to be committed to the good and bad times. That way you have a high likelyhood of getting through them.

    Chances are in a long term relationship, you'll encounter both.

    If you are not sure enough about this person to commit yourself to them, then maybe you're not as commited as you state?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 707 ✭✭✭deevey


    I WAS YOU !!!

    And my Fiancee was the same ...that was until about errr.... 3 months ago, when i randomly started "thinking".. looking at rings etc ... I tell you it was autopilot.

    A week ago while we talking, saying all the usual lovey dovey stuff .. the words just came out and she said "YES !" ...followed by.... "you took your time" :p

    So far, I'm giddy as a pig in sh1te, oh and i swear she's suddenly got better looking :eek: .. ok that bits' not so true, simply isn't possible(before I get a slap).

    We had both talked about it yonks back and agreed that we would never "need" a piece of paper to express our love and were against marriage etc.....it turns out that she had wanted it for the past few months too and just didnt know how to say it too me!

    But seriously the commitment can bring things to a whole new level...its a scary prospect too in lots of ways but worth every exciting second.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,658 ✭✭✭✭The Sweeper


    I've found the person I want to spend my life with but I don't want to get married. I don't see the need for it or point of it. I am willing to commit myself to this person but I don't need a piece of paper or a priest to make me promise or to make it legal. I hope that I will always love this person...

    So you think you're in love with the person you want to spend your life with...
    but I can't read the future, if something drastic happens and things don't work out I don't want to feel stressed by legal/ money/ religious issues. The heart and love in general are not very rational things and I don't think anyone can promise to love someone forever.

    ...but you're really not sure?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭allybhoy


    dudara wrote: »
    I undestand all your arguments about the need to not get married, but why are you acting so scared of it?

    I apologise if this sounds critical, but I generally find that when people trot out a whole range of reasons not to do something, then it means that they are scared of it.

    Agreed.
    Its pretty clear from reading your posts that he is very keen on getting hitched. You say you love this guy, do you though? Do you love him so much that you would grant him his wish to take you up the aisle? Seeing as though you dont "see the need or the point" to get married would you not do this for him as a sign of how much you love him? If its not a big deal for you but it is for him than there is no reason not to do it as you know how happy it would make him.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,736 ✭✭✭Gannicus


    Yeah I'm not mad about the idea of all that money for one day. I am open to the idea but don't know If I'd do it. If I met someone i wanted to spend the rest of me days with that'd be fine with me. I'd have no problem spending the rest of my days with someone and telling them that but. Not the wedding kinda guy. If fairness I know a couple of girls like that too. It seems to be a growing trend from the looks of things


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭mickoneill30


    Big Steve wrote: »
    Yeah I'm not mad about the idea of all that money for one day.

    I got married in a registry office in the North. It was small and didn't cost a fortune (i.e. no debt after it). You are in trouble though if one of the couple wants a big white wedding.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 686 ✭✭✭bangersandmash


    dudara wrote: »
    I undestand all your arguments about the need to not get married, but why are you acting so scared of it?

    I apologise if this sounds critical, but I generally find that when people trot out a whole range of reasons not to do something, then it means that they are scared of it.
    That's a big assumption. Surely the onus and emphasis should be on why do something, rather than why not to do something. It's not unreasonable of the OP to ask what the benefit of marriage is for people who aren't of a religious persuasion.

    OP people will have different notions of what commitment means and various romantic notions about celebration, community etc. I think the only common ground that everyone would agree on is that marriage is beneficial for tax purposes and for protection in matters concerning children and inheritance. Everything after that is personal belief and preference.

    Unfortunately it seems your other half may have different beliefs from you. Obviously a compromise would be ideal. But the idea that's been suggested of basically going through the motions to placate your other half doesn't seem like a good road to take.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭neuro-praxis


    Adult, committed love is a decision, not a feeling.

    And amazingly, the feelings usually tend to flow from the decision.

    The trick to staying together forever is for both of you to put the other first. It doesn't sound to me like you'd be willing to do that. Maybe marriage isn't for you.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭Grawns


    We decided to start a family so getting married became important then. Had a fabulous untiarian wedding in March and expecting baby in February. If we weren't having a baby we wouldn't have bothered maybe. It was more important to him than me but I think it's important to children and for the legal situation re. inheritance etc. after you start a family. Our solicitor is already on to us about appointing guardians and making wills...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,846 ✭✭✭barbiegirl


    I like the celebration part, I don't really see two people as a family, I'd prefer to see them as two individuals.

    My parents, now married 38 years have taught me that a happy marriage and family starts with a couple who are united but individual. A family always starts with 2. Would you consider a childless couple to not be a family?
    Plus lets not confuse the wedding day with marriage they are two very different things.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 146 ✭✭bionic.laura


    I hope that I will always love this person but I can't read the future, if something drastic happens and things don't work out I don't want to feel stressed by legal/ money/ religious issues.

    I think maybe you need to look at why you don't want to get married. I think perhaps you are afraid that if you are married you won't be able to escape the relationship. Nobody knows when they get married what will happen in the future but usually they are sure enough of their love for the other person that they will be able to work through any bad times. Your status as an individual seems to be very important to you. It's not a sign of weakness to rely on another person you know. You can still be an individual within a family.


  • Subscribers Posts: 19,425 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    I don't need a piece of paper or a priest to make me promise or to make it legal.
    I too see fear in this statement. I recognise that it is a big assumption to make from a small bit of information, but I also want to ask the OP about it.
    I hope that I will always love this person but I can't read the future, if something drastic happens and things don't work out I don't want to feel stressed by legal/ money/ religious issues.
    If you are committed in whatever way to a person, be it marriage or not, you will not escape legal/money issues. Im not religious in the conventional sense so would not have that sense of religious doom hanging over me because of a failed marriage. Have a civil marriage if thats the issue.
    The heart and love in general are not very rational things and I don't think anyone can promise to love someone forever.
    No, you dont. You promise to do your best, today. And you do that, everyday. Some marriages work brilliantly. Lots dont. Its a chance, but everything is. But your sentence there is not about marriage per se, its about muddling along in any kind of long term relationship. Dont see it as a life sentence. Its more like a wish that you will enjoy each other in all kinds of changing ways, for a long time. Its not pressure, its hope.
    Some advantages of getting married would be tax breaks and the splitting of assets in the case of divorce, custody issues etc. These things don't really matter to me
    They should, tbh. Im all for autonomy, but security is important too if you are intending to make all kinds of financial and other commitments to someone.
    I'd prefer to remain as an individual who chooses to live and stay with another person on my own terms.
    Marriage is not a ball and chain. It does not nail one foot to the floor and make you stay anywhere. In this present, liberal day anyone can simply walk away from a marriage with few repercussions. None that cant be dealt with anyway. So you would still be there on your own terms. Why would you choose to be with someone any other way?

    Im not here to promote religious or civil marriage. But I do think some of your reasoning for being against it seems to be a panic reaction to something you view as a one way, no way out decision. Its not. Its a choice you make. Its not to be feared. If its just something you find unneccesary, fine. But you and your partner will have to work hard to find middle ground here, you seem to be on opposing sides when it comes to your views on commitment. And both of you need to find out why you are so entrenched in that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 375 ✭✭Curlypinkie


    I think that you are in the wrong society for this sort of thinking.
    I am exactly the same. I don't like the whole commit-to-one-person rigmarole.
    I simply don't believe it works for everyone. Yes, some people's parents are still happy, kisses and kuddles all around, but I also know a horrible amount of dysfunctional families, where if the possibility of a quick out and away existed, it would have been the best solution for everyone involved.

    A couple, if they decide so, will be a family if they're not married and don't have kids. It's a mindset, it's not tradition IMO.
    I think that you are up for tough times ahead, especially on the back of your comment where you say your partner doesn't believe in all that "hippy-crap".
    I've been in a relationship where I almost married and we came to an agreement where there would be no church, we would just invite the closest family (about 10 ppl) to be our witnesses and the ceremony would not be held by a priest. I won a battle I tell ya.
    We broke off our engagement and the wedding never happened. In retrospect I'm happy we didn't go through with it beacuse I would only have felt like a liar. Going through all that and then the realtionship would have ended anyway.

    The general belief in society is that if you don't get married you will not work on your relationship to the same extent as if you would have been married.
    I think you can only work on relationships to a certain degree. And if two people love each other they will fight.
    If one person stops loving the other or they will both stop loving each other no bond, paper or even chain for that matter will stop them for separating.

    I say discuss this more with your partner. You might come to an agreement and you might not. The tradition to get married in this country is very deeply rooted, especially in men, which more than women regard it as holy.
    Women, sorry for maybe upsetting some, usually just focus on the shiny stuff, the dress and the whole "I will look LOVELY in front of everybody" malarkey. Fun times to be had for many if your inclined that way but annoying for the likes of me and you for the sole reason we are in minority.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 375 ✭✭Curlypinkie


    Oryx wrote: »

    Marriage is not a ball and chain. It does not nail one foot to the floor and make you stay anywhere. In this present, liberal day anyone can simply walk away from a marriage with few repercussions. None that cant be dealt with anyway. So you would still be there on your own terms. Why would you choose to be with someone any other way?

    And this is exactly why I don't see a reason in marrying in today's society at all.
    Apart from the legal reasons obviously but that can be solved in other ways, just ask your friendly solicitor.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,731 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    So you think you're in love with the person you want to spend your life with...



    ...but you're really not sure?

    She's just being honest - she feels this way now, but can't predict the future.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    I'm pro-marriage personally, for the romantic reasons, but those aside its a very practical choice, to have security for you, your potential spouse and any children you might have.
    Boys and girls this is what it comes down to; security - and when we say security we mean financial security.

    When you marry you make a financial commitment to bankroll the other party in this is needed. So, before doing so you need to ask yourself if you are willing to do this - even if you are no longer together - or that you may gain from this as the other party will have to financially support you, if this is needed - again, even if you are no longer together.
    Am very glad now that we got married for the protection it gives me as regards access rights to my children
    The only thing marriage gives you in this regard is automatic guardianship which would almost certainly be granted if sought in court. Access rights and child maintenance are dealt with exactly in the same way. So the rights that fathers get from marriage are actually pretty overrated as they are hardly different to those of unmarried fathers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    A good reason to get married is because it is obviously important for your partner. My boyfriend was completly against it, and this really upset me. I was going to leave him because he seemed so scared of it and to me that said that he wasnt sure he wanted to be with me.
    But are you anti marriage, or just indifferent?If anti marriage, then dont get married. But if indifferent, why dont you just make your man happy? Everyone has different beliefs and different reasons for getting married. He obviously had his. So just do it for him!
    My boyfriend suprised me by telling me that he felt this way, and then he proposed. I know it wasnt the most romantic thing, but it said a lot. He said he knew what it meant to me? and wanted to prove he was sure he wanted to be with me. I was just scared he didnt want to be with me but this put my mind at ease. Into the engagement a bit, he told me how much he wwas looking forward to the wedding day and that he realied that he had evey reason to get married to me. His vew totally changed on it!

    You can tell someone all you want to be with them forever and promise yourself to them, but as we know, actions speak louder than words.
    I think marriage is showing that you have no fear.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Me again,
    Just wondering if anyone has had a registry office wedding or a civil partnership. What does it say on the thing you sign? What does it mean exactly?

    I think my main problem with the marriage thing is the vows. I can't imagine being asked " Do you take this man for better or for worse " and saying " On the condition that I'm happy" or " Do you promise to love and cherish him etc etc" and answering " How should I know? I can't read the future". I'm not trying to be facetious, I would feel a bit of a liar if I had to say I do to everything as if it was all set in stone.

    a few comments:
    I think there is a certain element of fear about it, feeling trapped, feeling like the state or the 'community' would be keeping tabs, being seen as 'a wife'.

    I do enjoy my sense of individuality and the marriage thing makes me feel like I'll be seen as part of a pair and nothing else. It probably is a bit extreme but it would be worse to agree to it and end up resenting it later. We've always split everything half and half, I don't see why this has to be legally enforced, we seem pretty capable of doing it now. Would a joint account not suffice?

    People are saying that if couples want to separate they will, regardless of whether they are married etc, but I get the feeling that it can take a few years and involves lawyers and court dates. I feel that staying in a relationship but not getting married would eliminate any of this legal crap. I think its basically bureaucracy which is kinda depressing.

    I think knowing that you can leave the relationship whenever you want is empowering, it makes you think about what you have and appreciate it more. People have said if you don't get married you are less likely to work at your relationship, that may mean you have to work at it because you are married,i.e. you have less choice in the matter. I think people will work at their relationships if they feel it is worth it and if they don't want to lose the person. I don't see avoiding marriage as a cop out.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    We've always split everything half and half, I don't see why this has to be legally enforced, we seem pretty capable of doing it now.
    Actually, that's not what the financial responsibility of marriage means. It means that you become one financial unit, so that if one spouse were to become permanently unable to work, the other would have to financially support them for life. That is obviously not half and half.

    There are naturally limits to this responsibility in divorce / separation, but it is important to understand what marriage legally means. It's not two people splitting the bills equally, it's the undertaking that each will cover the other as a combined unit - For better, or worse...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭BroomBurner


    I had a civil marriage and they don't ask you to say any vows if you don't want to. It's entirely up to yourself. They also don't allow anything religious, as it is meant to be a civil union, not a religious union. I can't remember the exact words, but I think the first thing we had to say yes to was that we understood there was no legal reason for us not to marry (as in being related, etc.). Actually, it's a great way to be both married and keep it individualistic.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,883 ✭✭✭shellyboo


    Me again,
    Just wondering if anyone has had a registry office wedding or a civil partnership. What does it say on the thing you sign? What does it mean exactly?

    I think my main problem with the marriage thing is the vows. I can't imagine being asked " Do you take this man for better or for worse " and saying " On the condition that I'm happy" or " Do you promise to love and cherish him etc etc" and answering " How should I know? I can't read the future". I'm not trying to be facetious, I would feel a bit of a liar if I had to say I do to everything as if it was all set in stone.


    There's no such thing as a civil partnership in Ireland as of yet. It will be introduced in coming years, but since it's a constitutional amendment, I think it will have to be voted in by referendum - but I stand to be corrected on that.

    A registry office wedding is just a wedding without the holy stuff. I'm not sure there's a huge difference in the vows involved, but I presume there's more flexibilty in what you can promise to do.

    In one way, it's good that you're taking the insistution of marriage so seriously - but maybe a little too seriously? No-one expects you to stay in a marriage you're not happy in. If your only concern is that it's going to be easier to get out of the relationship if you're not married, then perhaps you're not ready. You're obviously not sure you're going to be with your partner forever.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭BroomBurner



    I think knowing that you can leave the relationship whenever you want is empowering, it makes you think about what you have and appreciate it more.


    This statement makes me feel very sad for your other half :( Kind of like that you like living on tenderhooks, but he might not.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,186 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    I have talked to him about it a good deal and made my views very clear. He isn't happy about it. he thinks that not getting married means theres no goal, we'd just be going out forever. He goes on about the legal and financial benefits, but they really don't mean anything to me. I suggested a commitment ceremony but he said that was hippie-ish and that no one does that.
    Well if you ever want kids he is absolutely right to insist on a marriage before having them. Otherwise he will have no rights to his children unless other procedures are gone through (and you never no what might happen before that can be done). Also, if one you dies suddenly without a will neither of you will get anything under intestacy. So, your half the house doesn't go to him but your 'next of kin'.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    I understand where you are coming from OP, in terms of individuality. I think it's the way I see other friends of ours being treated. It's all so and so and his wife, yet our "single" friends who are in a relationship actually get names when they are being referred to!

    There seems to be a strange attitude to getting permission from wives as well, which I find repulsive. A married friend of my boyfriend's might go for beers "if he's allowed" or can go off for a round of golf "if she lets him". The way they talk it's like once you are married you don't have any say-so about anything without consulting the wife. That may be the case, but there's less respect or something involved and I hate that attitude.

    I love the fact that we are both still treated individually, as a couple. I know myself that if we get married that won't change for us, but people change in their attitude to married couples in my experience and it it makes me a bit phobic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Sangre wrote: »
    Well if you ever want kids he is absolutely right to insist on a marriage before having them. Otherwise he will have no rights to his children unless other procedures are gone through (and you never no what might happen before that can be done).
    This is a red herring, TBH. The only thing that marraige affords to a man in this regard is automatic guardianship. That's all. He may still apply for guardianship either with the cooperation of the mother (in which case it is a minor formality) or without (in which case he would need to be a danger to the child not to be awarded it).

    All other parental rights and responsibilities are unaffected by his marital status.
    Also, if one you dies suddenly without a will neither of you will get anything under intestacy. So, your half the house doesn't go to him but your 'next of kin'.
    Then write a will. It's not that difficult, FFS.

    All of these points can be remedied with a few separate documents that, combined, are still less hassle than a marriage certificate, let alone a divorce.
    Malari wrote: »
    There seems to be a strange attitude to getting permission from wives as well, which I find repulsive. A married friend of my boyfriend's might go for beers "if he's allowed" or can go off for a round of golf "if she lets him". The way they talk it's like once you are married you don't have any say-so about anything without consulting the wife. That may be the case, but there's less respect or something involved and I hate that attitude.
    In fairness, if you live with someone you do have a responsibility to them, even if not married, so you can't really just go off for beers at the drop of a hat without coordinating with them (they might be expecting you for dinner, for example).

    Additionally, a lot of people in settled relationships (married or not) will use the "I'll have to check with the boss" line as a diplomatic way of getting out of engagements that you're not really arsed to go to.

    So, it's really got more to do with being in a settled relationship, rather than being married.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    In fairness, if you live with someone you do have a responsibility to them, even if not married, so you can't really just go off for beers at the drop of a hat without coordinating with them (they might be expecting you for dinner, for example).

    Additionally, a lot of people in settled relationships (married or not) will use the "I'll have to check with the boss" line as a diplomatic way of getting out of engagements that you're not really arsed to go to.

    So, it's really got more to do with being in a settled relationship, rather than being married.

    Yes, I agree with what you're saying. I am in a settled relationship, and I kow that you can't do anything you want, but it is the "I'll have to check with the boss" attitude I really don't like. It has a mysogynistic, resentful tone that I hate. I know my boyfriend says "I'll have to check with Malari" which is just more respectful. Maybe it's not just married poeple who do this, but in my circle of friends it is.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,560 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    I hope that I will always love this person but I can't read the future, if something drastic happens and things don't work out I don't want to feel stressed by legal/ money/ religious issues.
    Sounds to me like you're basically saying "The value of your shares can go up or down, me plc is not governed by any regulatory body".

    I think maybe that you're a little unsure of your present circumstance than anything to do with the institution of marriage in general.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,186 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    This is a red herring, TBH. The only thing that marraige affords to a man in this regard is automatic guardianship. That's all. He may still apply for guardianship either with the cooperation of the mother (in which case it is a minor formality) or without (in which case he would need to be a danger to the child not to be awarded it).

    All other parental rights and responsibilities are unaffected by his marital status.

    I'm more than aware of this, however automatic guardianship can be an very important thing. As I alluded to, you never know what might happen between the child being born and actually getting the guardianship order. He will have severely leverage if seeking access for a child as an unmarried father in a contested custody battle.
    Then write a will. It's not that difficult, FFS.

    Again very true but its shocking how many people don't have a will. A new one should be made every time a large financial transaction is made (e.g house bought) or a child is born. Even if you do have a will you won't be able to avail of the huge financial benefits of receiving something under a will as a spouse beneficiary. We're talking in the region of half a million as opposed to about €26000.

    Tbh, I'm not sure if I will go down the marriage route ever but thats only because I know exactly what I need to do in other departments, for most people thats not the case.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Sangre wrote: »
    I'm more than aware of this, however automatic guardianship can be an very important thing. As I alluded to, you never know what might happen between the child being born and actually getting the guardianship order. He will have severely leverage if seeking access for a child as an unmarried father in a contested custody battle.
    Guardianship may be sought at any stage, so your point is not terribly valid.
    Again very true but its shocking how many people don't have a will. A new one should be made every time a large financial transaction is made (e.g house bought) or a child is born.
    Perhaps, but if people can get the shîts together to get married, they certainly can get a will made out.

    You don't need to write a will every time your financial situation changes, a will can be written to account for this. Additionally, children do not need a to be included will to inherit - indeed, a will is only necessary so that they don't inherit.
    Even if you do have a will you won't be able to avail of the huge financial benefits of receiving something under a will as a spouse beneficiary. We're talking in the region of half a million as opposed to about €26000.
    The tax breaks (inheritance, income, etc.) are a good point, and ultimately all that marriage really affords people that they can't get otherwise. So, the only real difference is financial, TBH.

    My own feeling though is that unless you are absolutely certain that it's for life, the opportunity cost of marital tax breaks is a fraction of the cost of spousal maintenance.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,186 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    Guardianship may be sought at any stage, so your point is not terribly valid.

    Can it be sought before birth? (Genuine question) If not you've got 9+ months for a potential break-up, not to mention no one wants to go near a lawyer just after having their first born. A father will nearly always get guardianship, I'm talking more about access rights and custody agreements where the mother disputes them.
    Perhaps, but if people can get the shîts together to get married, they certainly can get a will made out.
    You'd be surprised. Of course this is what people should do, I'm referring more to the practical reality of most people's day to day lives.
    You don't need to write a will every time your financial situation changes, a will can be written to account for this.
    It really should be updated with a significant financial change to prevent real assets like a house being split up among a number of people under a residuary clause.
    Additionally, children do not need a to be included will to inherit - indeed, a will is only necessary so that they don't inherit.
    A child can challenge a will that has excluded him unless it is something a reasonable and prudent parent would have done. Also, children inheriting under a will will get everything in equal shares, which may not account for special circumstances or needs.
    The tax breaks (inheritance, income, etc.) are a good point, and ultimately all that marriage really affords people that they can't get otherwise. So, the only real difference is financial, TBH.

    My own feeling though is that unless you are absolutely certain that it's for life, the opportunity cost of marital tax breaks is a fraction of the cost of spousal maintenance.

    Honestly, despite the above I'd agree with you on both the above points. I'm just making some potential pro-marriage arguments that the bf might make so that the OP can appreciate their point of view.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 28 **magnolia**


    "People are saying that if couples want to separate they will, regardless of whether they are married etc, but I get the feeling that it can take a few years and involves lawyers and court dates. I feel that staying in a relationship but not getting married would eliminate any of this legal crap. I think its basically bureaucracy which is kinda depressing." Quote

    I disagree with the above, my friend who ended a long term relationship had the exact same bureacracy as another friend who was married and separated. In both instances there may be a house, assets, custody of children, access etc to be sorted out and they are generally, in my experience, sorted out the exact same way for a co-habiting couple as a married couple. The only difference is that one can marry a new partner, the other cant for 4 years.
    Also the clincher for me would be thirty years down the line and you have never married your OH but you have no say in what happens them if they become ill etc because you are not next of kin even though you might be the only one that knows exactly what they want

    Just my opinion


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Sangre wrote: »
    Can it be sought before birth? (Genuine question) If not you've got 9+ months for a potential break-up, not to mention no one wants to go near a lawyer just after having their first born. A father will nearly always get guardianship, I'm talking more about access rights and custody agreements where the mother disputes them.

    Don't think it can be got pre birth but then again, that would probably apply equally to marriage break ups.

    If the mother disputes access and custody, again, it really is irrelevant if married or not! Having said all that, it maybe easier to get more access is some cases because you are a joint custodian when married.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    There is also the issue of acknowledgement by family. For example, my uncle who had been living with his girlfriend for 7 years. My grandmother refused to meet her or let her into the family home. They then had a baby. She still refused to meet her or let her into the family home. Then they got married and that was when she met her and welcomed her into the family home.

    Imo, the financial security and tax incentives are not enough to get married. If that is why you are doing it you shouldn't do it. And you should only do it if both people go into it agreeing that divorce is not an option, which also means looking at the main causes of divorce and making sure they are not an option either.

    Saying that, I don't know how great living with someone is either without being married.

    I suspect OP will be afraid that having the legal ceremony will make her feel like she is being forced to be with someone. Some people can feel like that, or you could look at it like you have chosen to be responsible to this person and they to you , through thick and thin. OP with all the skepticism you have about marriage, you should not do it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 363 ✭✭SparkyLarks


    1) inheritance, if one of you dies the other can be left with a big tax bill on your house. A lot of people in this situation have to sell their house to pay the bill. Not something to I would like to put someone I love through

    2) Kids. As a man, the Irish laws can make it very difficult for access if the mother is against it. this is not good for the kids long term. Even if the father isn't a danger to the kids some of men;s exes do lie to give the kids less access.

    3) ilness. As said before your not the next of kin. You may have no say in treatment, or even access in certain situations

    4) If you do break up and your other half does get married, you and any children could be put at a disadvantage.

    But more importantly I do feel that it is an important statement of intent, i.e I love this person and want to live with them. I'm glad that it isn't easy to get out of marriage as it makes it a serious step.

    If you don't share a mortgadge or have kids then a lot of the issues might not be big ones to you. most of the benifits of marriage come into play when things are tough, ilness death etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Sangre wrote: »
    Can it be sought before birth? (Genuine question) If not you've got 9+ months for a potential break-up, not to mention no one wants to go near a lawyer just after having their first born. A father will nearly always get guardianship, I'm talking more about access rights and custody agreements where the mother disputes them.
    Guardianship does not exist for either parent until birth. At that point the mother receives it automatically and the father automatically if married to the mother, otherwise he needs to apply for it. He may do so the moment the birth is registered. Guardianship makes no difference to access. Custodz is a more complex matter and guardianship is only one of the factors involved.
    You'd be surprised. Of course this is what people should do, I'm referring more to the practical reality of most people's day to day lives.
    I wouldn't confuse practical reality with people not being able to get their shìts together.
    It really should be updated with a significant financial change to prevent real assets like a house being split up among a number of people under a residuary clause.
    Most wills are not that complicated and can be structured to reflect the same inheritance arrangement as is afforded by marriage. Updates are not necessary.
    A child can challenge a will that has excluded him unless it is something a reasonable and prudent parent would have done. Also, children inheriting under a will will get everything in equal shares, which may not account for special circumstances or needs.
    Children have no absolute right to inherit their parent's estate if the deceased parent has made a valid will. Given this, it's actually OT, as disinheriting children is the same regardless of marital status - as are their inheritance rights.
    Honestly, despite the above I'd agree with you on both the above points. I'm just making some potential pro-marriage arguments that the bf might make so that the OP can appreciate their point of view.
    I understand where you're coming from and I would have to say that I'm not against marriage (not terribly for it either). However, too many see it as an end in itself and don't consider the very real implications of it.
    I disagree with the above, my friend who ended a long term relationship had the exact same bureacracy as another friend who was married and separated. In both instances there may be a house, assets, custody of children, access etc to be sorted out and they are generally, in my experience, sorted out the exact same way for a co-habiting couple as a married couple. The only difference is that one can marry a new partner, the other cant for 4 years.
    The bureacracy man not be dissimilar, but the cost often is. I've seen other cases where one of the spouses got taken to the cleaner too, so I would disagree that the only difference is that one can marry a new partner, the other cant for 4 years.

    Ultimately, marriage is a commitment of union - social and financial - for life, and this is reflected in law. As such it will always be far more complex to extricate yourself from it than from co-habitation - at least until pre-nups are recognised in Ireland.
    Also the clincher for me would be thirty years down the line and you have never married your OH but you have no say in what happens them if they become ill etc because you are not next of kin even though you might be the only one that knows exactly what they want
    There's a legal document you can sign for that too, as an alternative to marriage.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    1) inheritance, if one of you dies the other can be left with a big tax bill on your house. A lot of people in this situation have to sell their house to pay the bill. Not something to I would like to put someone I love through
    Tax breaks are definitely an advantage of marriage. That is not to to say there are not ways around the issue, such as a dwelling house tax exemption.
    2) Kids. As a man, the Irish laws can make it very difficult for access if the mother is against it. this is not good for the kids long term. Even if the father isn't a danger to the kids some of men;s exes do lie to give the kids less access.
    False - for the third time: Marital status or even guardianship do not affect access whatsoever.
    3) ilness. As said before your not the next of kin. You may have no say in treatment, or even access in certain situations
    You will if you if this is drawn up.
    4) If you do break up and your other half does get married, you and any children could be put at a disadvantage.
    Complete bollox. It makes absolutely no difference.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Malari wrote: »
    "I understand where you are coming from OP, in terms of individuality. I think it's the way I see other friends of ours being treated. It's all so and so and his wife, yet our "single" friends who are in a relationship actually get names when they are being referred to! "

    Thanks, for a bit of reassurance.

    I think a civil marriage might be the best thing for me.It seems I won't have to sign anything that I'm not comfortable with. Even though I still don't see the real need for marriage. I'll try to broach the subject again with my bf, I'm a bit afraid to though as it might start a big argument, it usually does. I don't think he'd like me saying 'I'm willing to do a civil marriage if you want to, for security and financial reasons", it suggests that I have divorced it completely from any sense of love or romance, which I have.

    Also I didn't want to get into all the crap about kids. I haven't even decided if I want them, I'm leaning towards no, but things might change. However he did bring up this aspect so it must be important to him. I still think its strange though, the kids would obviously be both of ours and hence even if our marriage split up we would hardly be so cruel as to keep each other from seeing them.

    Thanks for all the comments everyone


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    you sound very young and immature??
    if you know you don't want to marry this guy and he is talking about marriage and kids i think you should end this and let him find someone with similar goals in life.


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