Cost of Administration of will?

opa01_2000

May be a silly question but does anybody know what we should be paying a solicitor for the completion of a will. Nothing contentious just a mother's estate being divided between her 2 daughters. We were expecting a quotation of time * rate per hour but have received a quote with a percentage of the value of the estate plus a fee.

Basically there is just a few bank accounts to be closed down and a small piece of land to be transferred which is not worth very much as it's out in the sticks and inaccessible.

How long should we expect this to take?

Any answers would be appreciated.

dats_right

opa01_2000 wrote: »

Basically there is just a few bank accounts to be closed down and a small piece of land to be transferred which is not worth very much as it's out in the sticks and inaccessible.

If that's all there is to it and it's so simple, why don't you do it yourself?

Maybe it's because you know well that there is an awful lot more work involved then you are letting on. A percentage fee is the norm for probate work, the transfer of the land doesn't form part of administering the estate and will most likely incur an additional fee.

How long will it take? Is impossible to answer unless one is fully aware of all the facts of the case, there are far too many factors to mention that could influence time frames.

opa01_2000

To be honest I wouldn't know where to start. I don't believe there would be a great deal of work but if you know more then I'd be happy to hear it.

What I can't understand is the percentage of the value of the estate. Surely the amount of work to be carried out would be the same if the value of the estate is low or high???

When we lived in England there was a flat rate for solicitor's fees for selling a house, much less than here in Ireland. I don't know about how fees for administration of a will is structured in England which is why I asked the question.

dats_right

opa01_2000 wrote: »

What I can't understand is the percentage of the value of the estate. Surely the amount of work to be carried out would be the same if the value of the estate is low or high???

Why not? Many professionals charge a percentage. Estate agents, architects, etc. Why not solicitors? Would you expect an architect to charge the same set amount for drafting drawings for a small domestic extension as for an office block, essentially the work is the same but obviously there is a lot more involved in the latter, or even an estate agent to charge the same for selling a €250k semi-d as a public house valued at €3m?

And also why should a solicitor charge the same amount for administering an estate valued at €30k as say one for €1m, when the solicitor is exposing himself to potentially a much bigger hit on his professional indemnity insurance if things go wrong!

Furthermore, no it wouldn't usually be the case that the amount of work is the same. If you think about it, it is common sense that if the estate is modest, all things being equal but with a very big proviso, it would usually mean less work. But, with bigger estates, the opposite is usually (again but not always) true i.e. bigger = more work. So it balances out.

In my opinion, administering an estate is an important professional service so you shouldn't be looking to do it on the cheap. But, if you feel professional fees are too high, there is nothing to prevent you doing it yourself!

opa01_2000

dats_right wrote: »

Why not? Many professionals charge a percentage. Estate agents, architects, etc. Why not solicitors? Would you expect an architect to charge the same set amount for drafting drawings for a small domestic extension as for an office block, essentially the work is the same but obviously there is a lot more involved in the latter, or even an estate agent to charge the same for selling a €250k semi-d as a public house valued at €3m?

I'd expect any experienced professional to be able to estimate what work is involved (time) and multiply this by a daily/hourly rate to come up with a price. Obviously an architect will take much more time to draft plans for an office block than for a small domestic extension. Estate Agents should also be able to price what they require to sell a house - for a €3m property they may suggest additional advertising, viewings etc which will cost more but I don't see how this is tied into the value of the property, more the amount of work needed to sell the property.

dats_right wrote: »

And also why should a solicitor charge the same amount for administering an estate valued at €30k as say one for €1m, when the solicitor is exposing himself to potentially a much bigger hit on his professional indemnity insurance if things go wrong!

Agreed - I could see an additional charge on an estimate to insure the solicitor but this should be relatively small.

dats_right wrote: »

Furthermore, no it wouldn't usually be the case that the amount of work is the same. If you think about it, it is common sense that if the estate is modest, all things being equal but with a very big proviso, it would usually mean less work. But, with bigger estates, the opposite is usually (again but not always) true i.e. bigger = more work. So it balances out.

What I was saying is that the paperwork for a property worth €70k will take the same amount of time as a property woth €250k (all other things beingequal). Similiar with closing down a bank account and transferring the funds.

dats_right wrote: »

In my opinion, administering an estate is an important professional service so you shouldn't be looking to do it on the cheap. But, if you feel professional fees are too high, there is nothing to prevent you doing it yourself!

Agreed - what I'm trying to understand is what a typical cost for the administration of a will for somebody who had three bank accounts, a small amount of land worth €30k approx, no debts, no challenges to the will and how long, if everything goes smoothly, to complete the administration?

dats_right

If the Estate is as small as you say then the percentage will almost certainly be less than an hourly rate anyway. This way you know exactly how much it is going to cost and if there are any difficulties (such as having to deal with Probate Office Queries it is on your solicitors time). Yes, an experienced solicitor can estimate the amount of time involved, but notwithstanding that; the Probate Office can be very sticky, and there is often no uniformity in their queries. One week something is fine the next the exact same thing is queried, predicting the Probate Seat Office is therefore futile. It's a case of submit and hope you have covered all the possible angles.

The fact that the estate is small doesn't necessarily mean less work either, I know I'm dealing with a horrible Probate at the moment where a testator decided it would be a good idea to draft their own will and then tear it, scribble on it, draw on it, make various insertions and deletions and sellotape it, etc. I am charging a percentage of a very modest estate, if I was on an hourly rate, at this stage, the Executor would actually owe me money over and above the value of the estate given the amount of time that I've put into trying to sort the mess!

Ultimately the point is that many, many things are charged by reference to a percentage and I don't really see why you have such a problem with this.

Milk & Honey

opa01_2000 wrote: »

I'd expect any experienced professional to be able to estimate what work is involved (time) and multiply this by a daily/hourly rate to come up with a price.

Estate Agents should also be able to price what they require to sell a house - for a €3m property they may suggest additional advertising, viewings etc which will cost more but I don't see how this is tied into the value of the property, more the amount of work needed to sell the property.

Estate Agents do not have a crystal ball any more than other professionals. there is cross subsidisation involved in work done on a percentage basis. An estate agent does not know how many viewings it will take. the first person in the door may make an offer at full market value and that is the end of it. It might take hundreds of viewings to get an offer. Time may be spent negotiating with multiple offerors. Trouble may start up when contracts are issued. Architects do not know what problems migh arise on a project. The builder may be awkward and difficult to deal with. There could be trouble with materials. The percentage fee provides certainty. Hourly fees would provide a plodders charter.

opa01_2000

Dats_right - thanks for your responses. I can understand your point about the way some things drag on.

My real difficulty with percentages is that having lived in England for a number of years I'm not used to that way of charging. When we bought and sold our house in England we were given a flat rate by both solicitors with a rider that if the work took longer than the number of hours assumed we would be charged at a rate per hour for each hour but we would be informed of this with reasons before any costs would be incurred. Cost to us for selling was £650 including VAT.

Our purchase in Ireland incurred much greater fees and much less competence even though the house had less value. We also had an additional cost (€500 plus VAT) added to the bill at the end which came out of nowhere.

Although, in my understanding for the reasons I have explained, the will is relatively straightforward there is a tidy sum at stake. We have had a percentage quoted which looked like costing approx €7k plus VAT, is now close to 2.5 years on and still not complete and have just received a statement adding nearly €2k plus VAT for the probate on the little piece of land - this requirement was known to the solicitor right from the start and has not been included in any quote. During these 2.5 years we have constantly had to remind the solicitor to get his finger out. Recently we have written to him twice in a two month period without response, 6 months after he promised to complete and have just had a letter (with the statement) which ignored our requests for an explanation on what the delay is. We accepted the original quote expecting a reasonable service and expecting to have the administration completed within a year.

So really the reason why I'm asking these questions is whether this sounds reasonable professional behaviour and what we can do about it - sorry it's been a roundabout way to get to my point but I didn't want to get into too much detail.

opa01_2000

Dats_right - all gone quiet. Can I assume that you can see that the costs are a bit over the top?

coylemj

I did the probate for the estate of an aunt of mine in 2004, it was very straightforward and the web saved me an awful lot of foot slogging. The reason for doing it myself was as you say the solicitor wanted to charge me a percentage of the estate and as there was a substantial property involved, I figured that it was not justified so I did it myself.

The Probate Office is set up to handle this and they even have a leaflet about applying in person for probate, go to http://www.courts.ie/ and search for 'probate'.

dats_right

opa01_2000 wrote: »

Dats_right - all gone quiet. Can I assume that you can see that the costs are a bit over the top?

No. You merely state that you are being charged a percentage and an amount of about €7k plus VAT. You don't say whether the estate is valued at €20,000 or €20 million!? So it is impossible to say one way or the other. Anyway, I am not going to criticise a fee that was quoted by your solicitor at the outset and more importantly you agreed with your solicitor. It's a bit rich to come back now and try claim that the fees are excessive when you knew all along those fees.

Secondly, you state: "received a statement adding nearly €2k plus VAT for the probate on the little piece of land". Okay, transferring ownership of the land does not form part of administering the estate and is not part of probate, it is a seperate transaction and it is standard for a solicitor to charge a fee for this additional work.

opa01_2000

dats_right wrote: »

No. You merely state that you are being charged a percentage and an amount of about €7k plus VAT. You don't say whether the estate is valued at €20,000 or €20 million!? So it is impossible to say one way or the other.

My point was that the value of the estate shouldn't matter - it's the amount of work to be carried out by the solicitor i.e. number of hours * hourly rate. FYI the value of the estate is just over €300k and the amount agreed with the solicitor was €1k plus 1.5%. He then added some sundry charges which we have had no explanation for.

Anyway, I am not going to criticise a fee that was quoted by your solicitor at the outset and more importantly you agreed with your solicitor. It's a bit rich to come back now and try claim that the fees are excessive when you knew all along those fees.

Yes - was agreed 2.5 years ago expecting a top priority of service but it is now more than 2.5 years, we've had to remind him regularly to get his finger out and he hasn't completed yet. Our issue, in this instance, is not with the cost which we agreed (although we believed at the time it was excessive but went ahead expecting a top job done) but the amount of time he has taken to do anything.

Secondly, you state: "received a statement adding nearly €2k plus VAT for the probate on the little piece of land". Okay, transferring ownership of the land does not form part of administering the estate and is not part of probate, it is a seperate transaction and it is standard for a solicitor to charge a fee for this additional work.

My point on this was he knew all along the probate was required, didn't provide a seperate quote, hadn't got any agreement from us on this charge but added it to his bill. My understanding, from the Law Society website, is "When you instruct a solicitor to carry out some work for you, your solicitor is obliged by law to give you information in writing about the legal charges you will incur.
The information you will be given will be as follows: the solicitor’s actual charges, or, where this is not possible or practicable, an estimate of the solicitor’s charges, or, where this is not possible or practicable, the basis on which the solicitor’s charges are to be made."
This did not happen in this case or was neglected in his quote. I would expect, as a result, he cannot charge us this extra amount.

Wantobe

Firstly I think you are correct in saying that the value of the estate should not be the basis for charge. What SHOULD be the basis is the actual amount of work involved. How many beneficiaries, are any over seas, are tax clearances involved, are shares ( irish or foreign), cash assets, bank accounts ( how many), real property involved. Disclaimers/contests/ title problems/one or two grants/ irish grant only or foreign grants. All of these and many more issues can arise. So it is only knowing the complexity of the estate that one can assess the charge.

However I agree with dats right in that as you agreed the fee... Your point is that the estate is taking too long. This is something that people often complain about in relation to an estate. But the thing is, the solicitor doesnt get paid until they complete the estate so it is not in their interests to delay. Again what one often finds is that there is difficulty in moving things along due to complexities.

In relation to a seperate charge for conveyancing- this is standard. The fact that a s.68 letter wasn't sent to you does not mean that you don't have to pay. This is tried and tested with the Law Society- what will happen if you complain about not getting a quote in advance is that they will reprimand the solicitor but will NOT tell you that you do not have to pay!

If you are unhappy with the amount there is a different procedure whereby you can apply to have the bill taxed but I cannot imagine that the amount you mentioned ( does it include outlay- ie land registry fees) would be considered excessive.

EC1000

Wantobe wrote: »

If you are unhappy with the amount there is a different procedure whereby you can apply to have the bill taxed but I cannot imagine that the amount you mentioned ( does it include outlay- ie land registry fees) would be considered excessive.

Just to clear up - getting something "taxed" is solicitor speak for getting the charges reviewed, not actually taxed.

statss

Can anyone recommened a trust worthy solictor in the field of probates?

Thanks

opa01_2000

Wantobe - thanks for a very useful response.

In response to your queries 2 main beneficiaries with small amounts to 4 grandchildren. None overseas, tax clearance dealt with and paid for seperately by accountant. No shares, 3 bank accounts (one in UK), no cash assets, small piece of land valued at €30k. No disclaimers or contests, no grants.

The money was in the solicitor's client for the past 2.5 years - he has paid out the majority to the beneficiaries but has retained more than enough to cover his bill (gaining interest all the time). There doesn't seem to have been any complexities rather the Solicitor doing something only when reminded regularly - stock response has been "I must get that file out".

There was no mention of a seperate charge for conveyancing - just turned up on a statement received recently. We had understood that all charges were covered in the original quote - nothing had led us to believe otherwise.

All outlays are billed as extras plus some unexplained "sundry expenses".

If he doesn't provide a clear, justifiable explanation we would be happy to have the charges reviewed by the Law Society even if we end up paying the full amount - if it means he's shown up for the way he does business.