So have the greens proved themselves as true politicians

zig

Check out their "50 steps to a better education system"

http://www.greenparty.ie/en/policies/education__1

All of the above will be looked at in due course. However I personally believe that funding the existing education system is the single most important task. Even without any new curricula or programmes, the relative lack of funding in key areas of our education system had led to major inequalities in our society. These inequalities don't just affect those who have been forgotten by the system, they also have a knock on effect on all aspects of Irish life. Whether it is through higher taxes, an increased crime rate or a reduction in our economic potential, everyone suffers.

And of course number 1 is more funding!!!!


The day I heard they were joining up with fianna fail was the day I lost interest in them. Their decision to back the government on this latest saga leaves me with no choice but to spoil my vote at this stage.

Mr.Micro

The day I heard they were joining up with fianna fail was the day I lost interest in them. Their decision to back the government on this latest saga leaves me with no choice but to spoil my vote at this stage.

Thats a waste of a vote, better to vote against them then at least it will count.

Victor

Tell me, for a politician, is it better to be in or out of government?

I think the answer is that it is better to be in government. Being in government says that, not only do you have policies, but those policies are also backed by the state. The amount of implemented legislation and policy that comes from the opposition benches is quite low. Now, sometimes, you don't get to implement all you policies from the start, but you gradually work on it.

the Greens had one condition for a voting pact with FG and Labour, that the voting pact would extend to the local elections. They were snubbed.

Liam Byrne

Depends on your definition of a "true politician"....

1) Someone who makes promises and works towards those = No
2) Someone who dupes people into voting for them based on false promises and then covers their ass enough to stay in power regardless of who they sell out = Yes

is_that_so

Victor wrote: »

Tell me, for a politician, is it better to be in or out of government?

I think the answer is that it is better to be in government. Being in government says that, not only do you have policies, but those policies are also backed by the state. The amount of implemented legislation and policy that comes from the opposition benches is quite low. Now, sometimes, you don't get to implement all you policies from the start, but you gradually work on it.

the Greens had one condition for a voting pact with FG and Labour, that the voting pact would extend to the local elections. They were snubbed.

Seeing as how the Greens have rolled over on pretty much everything since they went into government that price might have been one they should have looked harder at.

The Greens are not a party of Government. They, like the PDs before them are a niche party and are only really interested in their policies and their policies alone. Unlike the PDs however, beyond their green credentials they have absolutely nothing that might be trusted. They run on a platform that can easily be subsumed by any of the larger parties and make them irrelevant.

One can see why they have opted to do so and on that basis have proved themselves politicians of sort. Recently however the only shade of green on show has been an ersatz FF. The present difficulty allows them to wave a fig leaf over their various capitulations.

Aside from the ire that some have towards them , so far they have got away without being excessively blamed. They also seem to be deluded in believing that all that matters is what their very small party thinks and thinking that two sides of the mouth commentary on topics will wash in the long term. Without an election for some time it is probably safe to do so for now.

Green seats have regularly come in the latter stages of an election count long after their the Green member No 1s have gone.

Politically they may have been right but the longer things go on and the worse it gets the more risk they are exposed to. Given the dismal decision making ability of the current government they will be marked sooner rather than later. IMO that will have an effect on the local elections and may make them wonder whether this sojourn in the sun was worth it. As for the next election I see a decline in their seats although PD meltdown territory depends on what happens in the meantime.

jmayo

Victor wrote: »

Tell me, for a politician, is it better to be in or out of government?

At the moment you are better if you are not in government because you will have to make very unpopular decisions if you want to do the right thing for the long term benefit of the country.
Problem is the crowd (FF) that are in just want to be popular and doing the right thing is down the list.

Victor wrote: »

I think the answer is that it is better to be in government. Being in government says that, not only do you have policies, but those policies are also backed by the state. The amount of implemented legislation and policy that comes from the opposition benches is quite low. Now, sometimes, you don't get to implement all you policies from the start, but you gradually work on it.

Ah spoken like a true GP supporter/member.
So the question I will ask is, is going into government worth dumping your policies and selling out the people who voted for you ?
What policies will the greens get to implement eventually, not forgetting they have dumped most of them in the first place to get into bed with FF ?

Perhaps a carbon tax, which will be implemented not becuase it may help the environment but as another means of getting much needed revenue and FF will lay the blame at GP's door.
Was tax relief on bicycles one of their policies :rolleyes:

Victor wrote: »

the Greens had one condition for a voting pact with FG and Labour, that the voting pact would extend to the local elections. They were snubbed.

It appears it was one more condiftion than they demanded of FF :rolleyes:

The more I see of Emaon Ryan the more I think is on a power trip. He thinks he is great and important now.
As someone stated it is all a bit like the intro to the Simpsons.
The child has their own little steering wheel, they thnk they are great becuase they are helping to steer the car, but in reality it is still just a toy and the car is controlled by the adult.

zig

Depends on your definition of a "true politician"....

My definition of a true politician is a politician who has more interest in his own job than the reasons he wanted the job in the first place.

I guess you'll rarely come across the opposite but I really thought the greens were closest to that.

nesf

zig wrote: »

I guess you'll rarely come across the opposite but I really thought the greens were closest to that.

Never, ever, think that a party is going to be different to any of the others until you've seen them in Government. Sure give them a chance to show it by voting for them or whatever but the only way a politician proves their talent is by actually doing the job. It's extremely easy to look competent in Opposition where your policies never actually have to be implemented and it's even easier to "stick to your core values" when proposing policies when you don't have to balance the books in the budget or deal with the unions etc et al. It seems to be the same in every country if you follow foreign politics.


The Greens are towing the party line in exchange for getting some of their policies implemented. It would have been no different in a FG/Lab/Green government. Junior coalition partners don't (and shouldn't!) get their way with the majority of policy areas. They are, at the moment, caught between a rock and a hard place in that, a lot of FG and Lab voters seem to be quite annoyed with the Greens entering into Government with FF and the Greens walking out on the coalition might not actually be enough to get their transfers again while walking out would ensure less FF transfers. Sticking it out means they get a bit more time in Government to implement a few more policies with the possibility of picking up FF transfers in the next election, it will however seriously hurt them with many FG and Lab voters. The party relies on transfer votes from people who have a different party as their first preference thus making life for them very difficult whenever they go into Government with one side or the other.

Biggins

Being a "politician" is not the bee end of all things.
You don't have just to be a "politician" to make a difference.

As for the Green Party themselves, I like many, thought that once they got some power and/or influence in the way things are done at government level, we hoped changes were at last possibly forth coming even slightly to the old ways of Irish politics.

What we got was more of the same old, same old crap.

The Green Party under their now present leadership have made their party into a joke.
Like it or not, that is just the way it is and the way they are appearing under the present course they are on.
The ground membership is wholly disgusted at their leaders actions and find themselves powerless or too cowardly or too lazy to do anything about those that have sold them out. In fact they definitely sound like Fianna Fail!

Message to The Green Party leaders - Make the most of it while you can because come the next election, your asses are going to be kicked in the counting of votes.

Its one thing to enforce changes and harsh measures on adults but when you attack or do the same to one's children, we, parents and those of a caring nature, do not forget.
We will not forgive, we will not forget! :mad:

The Green Party have become yet another Irish disgrace and a dirty word.
Yes, they must be politicians! True one's? ...No. Same as the lying, backstabbing ones? ...Yes!

Nodin

zig wrote: »

So have the greens proved themselves as true politicians

In the sense that what they said they'd do and what they did differed by margins best measured in miles, yes. In that when they had power dangled in front of them their principles were dropped quicker than a brassers khaks, yes.

Go in talking about 'Troops out of Shannon', re-emerge a while later mumbling about a tax on chewing gum.....

jmayo

nesf wrote: »

Never, ever, think that a party is going to be different to any of the others until you've seen them in Government. Sure give them a chance to show it by voting for them or whatever but the only way a politician proves their talent is by actually doing the job. It's extremely easy to look competent in Opposition where your policies never actually have to be implemented and it's even easier to "stick to your core values" when proposing policies when you don't have to balance the books in the budget or deal with the unions etc et al. It seems to be the same in every country if you follow foreign politics.


The Greens are towing the party line in exchange for getting some of their policies implemented. It would have been no different in a FG/Lab/Green government. Junior coalition partners don't (and shouldn't!) get their way with the majority of policy areas. They are, at the moment, caught between a rock and a hard place in that, a lot of FG and Lab voters seem to be quite annoyed with the Greens entering into Government with FF and the Greens walking out on the coalition might not actually be enough to get their transfers again while walking out would ensure less FF transfers. Sticking it out means they get a bit more time in Government to implement a few more policies with the possibility of picking up FF transfers in the next election, it will however seriously hurt them with many FG and Lab voters. The party relies on transfer votes from people who have a different party as their first preference thus making life for them very difficult whenever they go into Government with one side or the other.

nesf I think you are being pretty generous to their entry into government.
They forgot about their objections to Shannon military flights, the road through Tara and the fact that their leader who resigned but yet accepted ministerial post accepted Bertie as leader, to name a few of their pre elections stances.
What about the incinerator in Ringsend in their leaders own constituency ?

FF have given them two departments that they would have believed could allow them make changes on green issues, but they will be hamstrung by the dept. of finance.
They will probably only get their wishses for some sort of carbon tax, any new increased taxes will be welcome at the moment, and consequently they will be the fall guys for this at next election.
Speaking of smaller coalition parties, the PDs boxed well above their weight and in affect many would say they got their way in a large number of very important policy areas, taxation and health being the primary two.

nesf

jmayo wrote: »

nesf I think you are being pretty generous to their entry into government.
They forgot about their objections to Shannon military flights, the road through Tara and the fact that their leader who resigned but yet accepted ministerial post accepted Bertie as leader, to name a few of their pre elections stances.
What about the incinerator in Ringsend in their leaders own constituency ?

FF have given them two departments that they would have believed could allow them make changes on green issues, but they will be hamstrung by the dept. of finance.
They will probably only get their wishses for some sort of carbon tax, any new increased taxes will be welcome at the moment, and consequently they will be the fall guys for this at next election.
Speaking of smaller coalition parties, the PDs boxed well above their weight and in affect many would say they got their way in a large number of very important policy areas, taxation and health being the primary two.

They were a minor coalition partner who could walk out without bringing down the Government. They were always going to have very little leverage. Plus, none of them have any experience in Government making it even worse. We'll see now if things will change if the Government shrinks to a level where their walking out would bring it down. If it doesn't then we're definitely looking at a party best left to languish in opposition tbh. The PDs only punched above their weight because a) they had a lot of experienced politicians for such a small party and b) the majority was small enough to make keeping them on side a necessity. Also, they only got their hands on health in the later years after it proving a poisoned chalice for many senior FF TDs and the taxation issues were a relative easy sell to the public in a boom time meaning they didn't cost that much political capital. The PD's entering into government with FF originally were in a very different position to the Greens entering Government, direct comparisons between them is misleading.

Húrin

The Greens were right to go into Government, but they would be wrong to continue to stay in government after everything that has happened. It would be suicide.

Biggins

Húrin wrote: »

The Greens were right to go into Government, but they would be wrong to continue to stay in government after everything that has happened. It would be suicide.

Well it looks like they have decided to commit it!
They have only to blame themselves - can't say they weren't told or heeded the warning before they went too far with the Fianna Fail gang.

grahamo

Trevor Sargeant makes a big show of getting the train to work with his fold up bike. The rumours around the train in the morning is that his paperwork is transported by taxi to the Dail.Very Green! That's a true politician for you ::rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

what? you mean the greens are in government, I'd never have noticed

They have achieved exactly the purpose they were put there by FF to achieve, they have made up the numbers.

I've lost a lot of faith in the greens, i think they have prostituted themselves to get some form of power. They are much more effective as a pressure groups outside the government than in it.

Sorry, but i don't think they have proven to be any good at all.

Bob the Builder

They've proven themselves more as cyclists than anything else to be honest.

cyclopath2001

nevf wrote:

They've proven themselves more as cyclists than anything else to be honest.

They've done nothing for cyclists.

simu

They're becoming irrelevant fast anyway as environmental issues have hit the mainstream.

paconnors

<p>the greens are in for a massacre in the next local elections I can see a few there councillors resignating before the election and trying to win a seat on the independent vote.</p>

sdanseo

Victor wrote: »

Tell me, for a politician, is it better to be in or out of government?

I think the answer is that it is better to be in government. Being in government says that, not only do you have policies, but those policies are also backed by the state. The amount of implemented legislation and policy that comes from the opposition benches is quite low. Now, sometimes, you don't get to implement all you policies from the start, but you gradually work on it.

the Greens had one condition for a voting pact with FG and Labour, that the voting pact would extend to the local elections. They were snubbed.

Of course it's better to be in government. But they promised they wouldn't do it, and people voted for them based on that. That makes them liars and cheats.

I believe the Greens probably originally wanted to go into coalition to get things done,but they broke one of their promises and core principles to do it, which makes it tantamount to selling out. They wanted the power more than the carbon emission I reckon.

Completely OT: Nearly ran over Trevor Sargent in the car a few weeks back on Schoolhouse lane. :pac:

Seth Brundle

What with Trevor's "I won't go into government with FF" shíte and since then the various policy U-turns, I would never ever trust a word from a green party member. Its one thing having to toe the line but to lose several of ones principals in doing so - they really should ask themselves whether its worth it.
However we probably should have known that the likes of Gormless would love being in power oer all else ever since he let his missus 'borrow' the mayoral car way back!