Commercial Law Firm Applications - Help!

dee8839

I hope this isn't the wrong forum for this, and that this is an acceptable topic. I'm a final year law student and its time to fill out job applications. I'm terrified! My academic record is average at best so I really need to knock their socks off with the other parts of my application, such as "Why do you want to be a solicitor" and "Give an example of teamwork"...

Any general advice on these applications would be so appreciated. Are there any "buzzwords" I would be well advised to use? What is the best way of phrasing things so as to stand out from the masses?

Thank you in advance.

_JOE_

Personally, I think that you need to focus on the experiences you have gained either through employment, sports or voluntary work, that's what I did and had no problems...as for questions like why do you want to become a solicitor, i believe it must come from the heart, and not some fanciful paragraph that you'll need to learn off...if you don't want to focus on academics, you need to project your other experiences, show them that you posess qualities that other candidates don't have...

nuac

The large commercial firms are interested in contacts amongst the business and financial community.

Stress your rugby as opposed to GAA or soccer record

Emphasise hockey rather than hurling

Know something about some of the more fashionable ski resorts

Your degrees would need to be from TCD or UCD

Sailing - be a member of one of the two posh ones at Dun Laoire ( better still call it Kingstown ) or the Royal Cork.

Hope you get my drift.

McCrack

I wouldnt agree with Nuac above, an old-boys club certainly did exist in the past, it's negligable now.
I would say that if you try to bull**** your interests/experience to what you think they would like you will be spotted very easily.
Try telling an interviewer your a private pilot, rugby fanatic, hockey player or whatever to fit into the alleged click, all it's takes is a knowledgeable interviewer to ask one Q on the hobby and your thrown looking both dishonest and silly.

Amazotheamazing

Ask yourself if you actually want to work for them and if so, put that answer down on the Application.

The above about rugby etc is nonsense, imo.

Working for the bigger firms isn't easy money, are you willing to put in long days reading commercial contracts and being a general dogsbody for example?

I'm sure it's great for some people, but you have to ask yourself if it would be great for you personally?

TheVan

nuac wrote:

The large commercial firms are interested in contacts amongst the business and financial community.

Stress your rugby as opposed to GAA or soccer record

Emphasise hockey rather than hurling

Know something about some of the more fashionable ski resorts

Your degrees would need to be from TCD or UCD

Sailing - be a member of one of the two posh ones at Dun Laoire ( better still call it Kingstown ) or the Royal Cork.

Hope you get my drift.

That's a load of crap. Please don't listen to that. Its unhelpful and in no way true.

Sports etc are only interesting as far as determining if you are a rounded person and do more than just study.

Skills to emphasise are things like ability to work in teams, initiative, coping with pressure and stress etc.

But remember, you have to be able to back everything up so don't lie. At best, stretch the truth, but no more than that.

skyhighflyer

nuac wrote: »

The large commercial firms are interested in contacts amongst the business and financial community.

Stress your rugby as opposed to GAA or soccer record

Emphasise hockey rather than hurling

Know something about some of the more fashionable ski resorts

Your degrees would need to be from TCD or UCD

Sailing - be a member of one of the two posh ones at Dun Laoire ( better still call it Kingstown ) or the Royal Cork.

Hope you get my drift.

Not true.

This post reminded me of a group interview with a Top 5 firm last year. The managing partner happened to be present at the group interview. One of the questions given to the group was "What's your favourite website?" The managing partner volunteered munster-rugby.com.

The next question was about the impact of sport in society. A lot of people obviously tried to talk about how great rugby was, given the managing partner's previous answer, even though it was clear how little some of them knew about the topic. I stated how I disliked rugby (and competitive sport in general) and that the only good thing about the rugby world cup was that it gave me an excuse to head to the pub. The partners got a good laugh about it.

Another person in the group then tried to take me to task saying how I underestimated the importance of sport in society. I just smiled at their blatant attempt to play the hard-nosed solicitor type and basically said how it was just my opinion and I'm sure everyone else would have their own.

I ended up getting a call back and ultimately an offer. So I'd say independent thought is more important than trying to fit into some rugger / yachtsman stereotype. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that you're lest likely to encounter nepotism in the big firms, compared to, say, a high street solicitor.

Gangu

nuac wrote: »

The large commercial firms are interested in contacts amongst the business and financial community.

Stress your rugby as opposed to GAA or soccer record

Emphasise hockey rather than hurling

Know something about some of the more fashionable ski resorts

Your degrees would need to be from TCD or UCD

Sailing - be a member of one of the two posh ones at Dun Laoire ( better still call it Kingstown ) or the Royal Cork.

Hope you get my drift.

Rubbish. As a solicitor hired by one of the big 5 I can say there were no more people falling into this sterotype there than there are on average in the general solicitor population. Do not listen to this. However, sorting through trainee applications last year it was clear that the competition is fierce and especially if you dont have a decent academic you do need to sell whatever edge you have. Buzzwords do nothing, but if you can show that you've got some relevant work experience or additional useful skills then upsell those.

Johnny Utah

Good man nuac, at least you're not afraid to say it how it is. I was going to post a similar comment but you beat me to it.
And it looks like he's hit a nerve with some people! Well, lads, the truth hurts.


Of course it's mostly about connections in these firms- don't be so ****ing naive. I know someone (think Tim-nice-but-dim) who gave a pair of tickets for a very important rugby match in Croke Park to someone in one of the big 5. I can't remember exactly what the connection was (it wasn't family, could have been golf club or something like that), but anyway in return yer man organised, not just one, but a couple of interviews with the big 5. That's how these firms work- connections.


I know that they recruit some very intelligent people too, but a lot of who they take in are there because of who they know, not what they now. And, yet the big 5 will claim to have "the best people", well that's just not true.


Furthermore, you should bear in mind that the work they undertake is more akin to that of an accountant or a salesman, not a lawyer.

skyhighflyer wrote: »

Not true.

This post reminded me of a group interview with a Top 5 firm last year. The managing partner happened to be present at the group interview. One of the questions given to the group was "What's your favourite website?" The managing partner volunteered munster-rugby.com.

The next question was about the impact of sport in society. A lot of people obviously tried to talk about how great rugby was, given the managing partner's previous answer, even though it was clear how little some of them knew about the topic. I stated how I disliked rugby (and competitive sport in general) and that the only good thing about the rugby world cup was that it gave me an excuse to head to the pub. The partners got a good laugh about it.

Another person in the group then tried to take me to task saying how I underestimated the importance of sport in society. I just smiled at their blatant attempt to play the hard-nosed solicitor type and basically said how it was just my opinion and I'm sure everyone else would have their own.

I ended up getting a call back and ultimately an offer. So I'd say independent thought is more important than trying to fit into some rugger / yachtsman stereotype. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that you're lest likely to encounter nepotism in the big firms, compared to, say, a high street solicitor.

1) I'd say they picked you because the others were obviously brown-noses and bull$hitters.

2) I wouldn't agree with the second statement (in bold). And I'm speaking from personal experience.

TheVan

Of my friends in my graduating class in BBLS in UCD, most of us have jobs in large commercial firms. We all got the traineeships in different ways. I got mine having done an internship, others had gotten them in the first round of interviews they did, some had to wait two years before they were successful.

But not one person I know used their contacts and/or their social background to nab a job.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, and unfortunately the odd person is successful in that way but the majority of people are not and if you focus on the one person who got away with it as opposed to the multitude of people who didn't even try it then you'll just view yourself as a victim and a martyr for life.

Go out there, apply, be clever (ie don't say drinking is your favorite activity outside of college) but don't lie. Be yourself and screw the naysayers.

nuac

Sorry to offend some who have got into or aspire to get into these firms, but I stand by my remarks.

I would add that your secondary school should be Blackrock, CLongowes, ( or similar for the ladies ) Kings Hospital etc rather than some lesser known CBS.

Nepotism is alive and well amongst those firms - If ( as I have ) you had been in practice for 30+ years you would see the family connections.

btw to the Van - while conversing with the exalted beings in those firms do not indicate your disagreement with a suggestion by saying "that's a load of crap". The senior partner may quietly check your personal file to see what school you attended. If a senior partner hears that kind of language you may not get the invitation to go yachting on race nights, nor to Mount Juliet for the golf.

Far better and wiser to say something like " I am not altogether convinced that that is so". Acquire a DORT accent.

Johnny Utah - we seem to be a minority on this topic on this board, but I think our views are widely shared with ample justification by solicitors outside the big 5 or big 8.

Cadet?

I have to disagree with this 'old boys club' picture that is being painted.

Of course some people get into firms because of connections etc., but that happens in EVERY walk of life. I'm gonna tell you right now that if my Da worked for a law firm I would have asked him to see if he could pull a few strings. Likewise if I ever have a son or daughter who wants to follow in my footsteps I'll do the same.

But to propagate the image that you have to be a certain 'type' to get into some of the big firms is just, in my experience, untrue. No doubt I'll be derided for my little knowledge and experience of what it is 'really' like....

But let me put it like this to all who are applying/have applied to the Big 5;

I have a traineeship with a Big 5 firm,
I'm a northsider with an accent,
I'm a GAA head and bigged this up at the interview,
I don't play golf/tennis/hockey/rugby or row,
I went to a community school.
I don't have a law degree or any FE1's,
I don't have any connections whatsoever in the legal world.
I have met a number of my intake (15 out of 18 I think). 11 are from outside Dublin. I think only 5 of us went to either UCD or Trinity. Only 2 of the guys played rugby...........

All I'm trying to point out is that for every person who gets a traineeship with a big firm through mummy or daddy or because they're of a certain 'type', there are at least 5 others who get it based on merit. Hey, it ain't perfect, but as I said, I know if I had had any connections you could be damn sure I would have used them.

Also, from my experience, it is more likely for connections to get you into a smaller solicitors office. e.g smaller offices down the country- where the local solicitors is a family business akin to a pub, butchers, or bakers etc.

I really don't understand why some people are trying to paint all these firms as being one big cosy club- what is the motive? Is it to try and warn others (if it is, you're misleading people- even if you have 20/30/40 years experience) or is there a bit of a chip on the shoulder?.

Law firms are businesses- they want to get the best trainees, because their future success depends on it.

My advice to everyone who is oing to interviews over the next few months is to be yourself and don't try and guess what they want to hear. Now, by being yourself you still mightn't get the job....sure you could be a complete gob****e for all I know!

But, as outlined, from my experience of my future firm and the trainees who got in with me, the certain 'type' of person described by other posters is no more or less represented than the Cork man who plays hurling, went to UL, studied Science and goes to Coppers every weekend.

Sangre

Every business in the world relys on connections, law firms are no exception. If you have a client who gives you €10m million in fees a year obviously you'll interview their son, similarily you'll also interview the guy who came in the top 5 of his year.

Player_86

There's no point in denying that connections can help some people get to interview stage etc. I think it's a very small minority, however. I interned in a Big 5 firm over the summer. Of the 20 interns, 1 had been selected for the internship based on a contact. She did not subsequently receive an offer of a Training Contract.

If you're good enough, you will get the offer from the Big 5 firms. People who moan that it's all based on contacts are only kidding themselves, in my opinion. But they're entitled to their opinions, fair enough.

I currently have offers from 3 of the Big 5, having interned there over the summer. I know absolutely nobody in law. I have no connections. I met some unbelievably talented people during the summer, none of whom had made it into the firm using contacts.

To offer advice to the OP, based on my experiences of interviewing in the Big 5 (albeit for internships) - they will focus on team sports, voluntary work, part-time jobs you may have held, travelling (J1 is a big talking point), your involvement in college societies.

They also want to see an application form that doesn't look like it could have been sent to all the firms, just by copying and pasting your answers into the various forms. Tailor your answers to each individual firm. For example, one firm bigs up the fact that over two-thirds of the partners trained at the firm - mention that kind of thing, they love that.

Best of luck with it.

dee8839

OP here.

Thanks for the replies. Just to give my personal view, I really think that it is more likely that contacts count for something in a smaller solicitors than in the large commercial firms. I know people in two of the Big 5 but to be honest, except for getting advice on applications, they aren't of any major benefit to me.

Academics just seem to be the first thing that is looked at. I have a 2:1, barely, with the potential to really improve that this year, but the applications are due now, so thats not much use. I have plenty of work experience, including 8 months in a commercial law department, I'm well travelled including a J1, and I have some interesting hobbies (although current involvement will be exaggerated since 4th year doesn't leave much spare time!!).

But I'm afraid that these parts of the application will only be looked at after my academics, in which case I lose. Because sure, if I get an interview I think I'd possibly do a better job than some people I know with 1:1 degrees but the personality of a box of staples, but the problem is I can't see myself even getting an interview.

Do you think a bare 2:1 is just too low? I guess I just want to prepare myself for the responses. Foolish really but hey, I'm human.

On another note - several of you question whether a commercial firm, where you are the dogsbody and the work is long and boring at times, is right for me. I doubt it, being honest. My priority is my Law Society exams. It seems to me that outside of the top few firms, fees aren't paid for you and thats a big issue for me. I think its worth the hard slog for a few years to get the benefits and pay afforded to you by the top firms. After that I think I'll be legging it into a small practice as fast as my legs will carry me!

johnnyskeleton

nuac wrote: »

The senior partner may quietly check your personal file to see what school you attended. If a senior partner hears that kind of language you may not get the invitation to go yachting on race nights, nor to Mount Juliet for the golf.

Why would a senior partner give a personal invitation to a trainee unless he was recently divorced and she was exceptionally good looking?

I think the reality is more that the senior partners in a big firm don't really care to fraternise with the new entrants and they are only concerned with how good a job you can do. From what I hear there can be a very large gulf between the top and the bottom in these firms (same with any other big organisation though).

Dan133269

Cadet? wrote: »

I have a traineeship with a Big 5 firm,
I don't have a law degree or any FE1's,

Think that goes a long way to dispell a lot of myths involved with getting a contract. Care to tell us what degree you have or what area you worked in before?

Player_86 wrote: »

There's no point in denying that connections can help some people get to interview stage etc. I think it's a very small minority, however. I interned in a Big 5 firm over the summer. Of the 20 interns, 1 had been selected for the internship based on a contact. She did not subsequently receive an offer of a Training Contract.

If you're good enough, you will get the offer from the Big 5 firms. People who moan that it's all based on contacts are only kidding themselves, in my opinion. But they're entitled to their opinions, fair enough.

I currently have offers from 3 of the Big 5, having interned there over the summer. I know absolutely nobody in law. I have no connections. I met some unbelievably talented people during the summer, none of whom had made it into the firm using contacts.

To offer advice to the OP, based on my experiences of interviewing in the Big 5 (albeit for internships) - they will focus on team sports, voluntary work, part-time jobs you may have held, travelling (J1 is a big talking point), your involvement in college societies.

They also want to see an application form that doesn't look like it could have been sent to all the firms, just by copying and pasting your answers into the various forms. Tailor your answers to each individual firm. For example, one firm bigs up the fact that over two-thirds of the partners trained at the firm - mention that kind of thing, they love that.

Best of luck with it.

Some good points there! Does anyone know how many training contracts are given out every year? Also what are the wages like? Think I read somewhere that they are around 30k although this would seem a bit generous

Sangre

afaik all the top 5 are paying above 30k, some more than others. There are other bonuses to consider though like fees paid, book allowances, time off once qualified, holidays.

maidhc

Sangre wrote: »

afaik all the top 5 are paying above 30k, some more than others. There are other bonuses to consider though like fees paid, book allowances, time off once qualified, holidays.

Meh. I did my apprenticship in a small firm (I got the contract by Nepotism!), I had to pay my own fees, but got the most fantastic training. I was treated like a solicitor, and even given my own dictaphone and allowed deal with "my own" files. I also got the keep account of my own holidays

It seems from what I hear some in the big 5 (and others in the "2nd tier") are not being all that nice to some of their recent graduates in these times of woe.

Amazotheamazing

maidhc wrote: »

Meh. I did my apprenticship in a small firm (I got the contract by Nepotism!), I had to pay my own fees, but got the most fantastic training. I was treated like a solicitor, and even given my own dictaphone and allowed deal with "my own" files. I also got the keep account of my own holidays

It seems from what I hear some in the big 5 (and others in the "2nd tier") are not being all that nice to some of their recent graduates in these times of woe.

Heard LK Shields, BCM, McCann Fitz, Mason Hayes and Curran, and O'Donnelly sweeney have really cut back on the trainees they are keeping on. Just a bad time to qualify.

Cadet?

Dan133269 wrote: »

Think that goes a long way to dispell a lot of myths involved with getting a contract. Care to tell us what degree you have or what area you worked in before?

Essentially my degree is Arts from Trinity- fairly popular course but I chose subjects that wouldn't be that popular....And just to give people an extra bit of confidence...I was an average 2.2 student when I applied to the firms.....in other words, they took my other experiences into account.

Best of luck to everyone.

Sangre

maidhc wrote: »

Meh. I did my apprenticship in a small firm (I got the contract by Nepotism!), I had to pay my own fees, but got the most fantastic training. I was treated like a solicitor, and even given my own dictaphone and allowed deal with "my own" files. I also got the keep account of my own holidays

It seems from what I hear some in the big 5 (and others in the "2nd tier") are not being all that nice to some of their recent graduates in these times of woe.

I didn't actually make any comment on whether he should pick a big five. Its hard to make many comments on training, you only do it once so you can never experience it again and contrast it.

amazo wrote:

Heard LK Shields, BCM, McCann Fitz, Mason Hayes and Curran, and O'Donnelly sweeney have really cut back on the trainees they are keeping on. Just a bad time to qualify.

I've heard so many rumours/stories at this stage, the majority of them contradicting each other I've just started to ignore them.

Although its true in this climate, its the NQ and those applying who are probably worst off. Those with 2/3 years to go might be able to wait out the recession, a lot of firms will just keep them as cheap labour.

maidhc

Sangre wrote: »

I've heard so many rumours/stories at this stage, the majority of them contradicting each other I've just started to ignore them.

There are a lot of redundancies in solicitors firms across the country. That much is more fact than rumour.

TheDemiurge

maidhc wrote: »

There are a lot of redundancies in solicitors firms across the country. That much is more fact than rumour.

I've also heard from extremely reliable sources close to me that solicitors in the bigger firms are being given double and treble the work and across practice areas in which they have no experience. One firm in particular apparently has quietly planned to keep the practice lean and mean for the next five years!