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Feminist Pop
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29-10-2008 8:42pm#1Ok, I've decided to create this thread because I really need a place to rant :mad: and trust me, this will be lengthy
. This whole "feminist pop" **** has just become ridiculous. Absolutley ****ing ridiculous... I'm talking about the likes of Katy Perry and now that Beyonce one as well. My reasons for doing this? Because I'm forced to listen to the ****ing things every single hour of the day in work...
Lets look at Katy Perry first. The first song was patethic ****, but my main gripe is that new one she has. From the lyrics I've been tortured with (about 100 times in the past week) I take it that she is saying something about her "bipolar" boyfriend being "no good for her"...and she's right. The only thing good enough for Katy Perry is a very hard ****in slap.. I haven't figured it all out yet, but its your average run of the mill bra burning attack on men - again. I'm hoping that she disapears up her own arse sooner rather than later.
And then the Beyonce song, "If I was a boy". If you were a boy beyonce, you wouldn't be called Beyonce and you'd have a set of balls. Thats what it would be like if you were a boy...but no, Ms Jay Z decides to psychologically profile every single man on the planet and delivers yet another "tar brush" track. I personally think if I wrote a song called "If I was a girl" in the same style there would be uproar. Its just a pity the male songwriters can only write ballads cooing about women, while the females just seem intent on creating this manish image for themselves.
So what is it?? Why has music been allowed to become a platform for this feminist bile? Have women nothing better to talk about these days, or are they going to continue spouting this superficial manbitch **** for the forseeable future?1
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Enough. I'm sure you can respect my views?
Let's not de-rail the thread.
Now now, don't dodge the question. Name the albums. I'm sure you wouldn't hate upon a whole genre of music without extensive listening of said genre.
Knowing DarkJager, I'm sure he'll want you to explain your problem with rap music.0 -
Now now, don't dodge the question. Name the albums. I'm sure you wouldn't hate upon a whole genre of music without extensive listening of said genre.
Knowing DarkJager, I'm sure he'll want you to explain your problem with rap music.
If I don't like a genre why would I give it extensive listening? My comment was off the cuff and should be considered as such. I seem to have touched a nerve with you Orizio. My 'problem' would be that I do not like it. Different people like different things and I'm entitled to air my views, whether rather bluntly or otherwise. That's that as far as I'm concerned.
As far as Anarchos post goes, I said: "I don't care especially about the sexist attitudes..." Sexist, not femenist so scratch that. I also said I didn't care especially about the issue the OP raised but that I understood what he was saying. Finally, yes I am complaining about over produced dross. Something wrong with that? Or complaining about a specific part of it? Talk about OTT.
I'm out of this thread. No problem with you Orizio, I would defend the music I like, sorry you took my comment to heart.0 -
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Don't see how 'I Kissed A Girl' is offensive, really.
It's an offence on music and my ears.
I think when some people hear 'bitch' uttered in hip hop they think it means every woman in the world.
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For example, there's a song that goes ''I Got Ho's in Different Area Codes''. I forget which rap song it was, but still I think it's a pretty strong indication that men can give as good as women in the old sexism stakes.
That's a song by a rapper called Ludacris, and is probably a bit more tounge in cheek than you take it for.. Also, if I recall correctly it wasn't rammed down anybodys throat on the radio, which means you'd only take offence to it if you saw the video or somehow heard it.About the female artists whinging- what, can people not sing about breaking up with their boyfriend now? What about all those emo bands for example going on about how a girl broke their heart and ruined thier lives? What about the (odious) Natasha Bedingfield's song 'I Want To Have Your Babies'- hardly a feminist call-to-arms , in fairness.
Of course they can sing about it but how many more times can it be done? There's already thousands of songs about the same ****..its a stale cliche at this stage.
As for emo bands, its a scene that seems to thrive on self pity (apologies to any emo fans reading but thats just how I see it). I also wouldn't think that those songs are on repeat every single day on the radio..A lot of the so-called 'feminist pop' is actually designed for men's consumption. Take the Pussycat Doll's 'I Don't Need a Man'- best example of pure hypocrisy. Sure they sing about 'not needing a man' ( I guess this is the type of lyrics you describe as 'whinging' about men') but in the Dolls are more or less glorified strippers, designed to be aesthetically pleasing to men.
I don't think its quite right to say its music for mens consumption. The only men I know of that would listen to that crap, are poor souls like myself who have no option to get away from listening to the ****, or hairdressers.Pop music is the furthest thing from 'feminist' that there is.
That depends what level of feminism you would like to categorise it as. IMO it is a type of feminism - I point you back to Beyonces new song which is just 4 minutes of condescending bull**** about men. She seems to be so high and mighty, she's figured out everything men think and do and decided to take a jab at it. However, those same 4 minutes could be loaded with everything thats wrong with women - but that of course would have a backlash wouldn't it? Its only equality as long you've got the bigger share...0 -
Hmmm I would have thought liking hip hop was the popular thing the do given its commercial success over the last decade or so.
Anyway, the problem I have with songs like that Katy Perry one is the message it portrays. I was watching an evening chat show here the other week and Perry was singing the song live. Now there were all sorts of young impressionable pre-adolescents in the crowd singing along to the latest bubblegum pop. All well and good.....until you see a close up of some 11 year gyrating while mouthing "I kissed a girl and I liked it". Surely that's not right.
No not at all. I suppose it depends on what type of music you listen to, your background and so on, but yes hating Hip-Hop out of pure ignorance has become an artform for many people, or maybe for certain 'types' of people.
Besides, the main people that like Hip-Hop because MTV Base tells them to are teenage girls...who in fact, as we all know, aren't really people. More like misguided little animals or something. 0 -
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That's a song by a rapper called Ludacris, and is probably a bit more tounge in cheek than you take it for.. Also, if I recall correctly it wasn't rammed down anybodys throat on the radio, which means you'd only take offence to it if you saw the video or somehow heard it.
Explain how it's tongue-in-cheek though. I don't have a problem with the song really ( I kind of like it actually!), I just gave it as an example of a ''possibly'' sexist rap song. Just the word 'ho's' even is fairly derogatory, you would agree?
So, what, it's only offensive if it's over-played?
Cop-out, my friend. Sure, it's annoying to hear a song, any song, over and over again, but if it's offensive, then that's it, doesn't matter how many times you hear it.
Of course they can sing about it but how many more times can it be done? There's already thousands of songs about the same ****..its a stale cliche at this stage.
As for emo bands, its a scene that seems to thrive on self pity (apologies to any emo fans reading but thats just how I see it). I also wouldn't think that those songs are on repeat every single day on the radio..
Of course, singing about break-ups, and how crummy men ( and women) are is a stale cliche, but it is the staple subject of the typical pop song, and has been since the dawn of popular music. What do you suggest women should sing about so?
RE emo- so when women complain about men treating them badly, it's condescending bull****, but when an emo band, for example, does then it's self-pity?
Again, the over-played argument. A lot of radio stations are given a list of songs to play, and they have to play these songs are certain amount of times every hour. Hence, why certain songs are every where for awhile, then disappear. In any case, how much they are played doesn't contribute to how offensive they are.
I don't think its quite right to say its music for mens consumption. The only men I know of that would listen to that crap, are poor souls like myself who have no option to get away from listening to the ****, or hairdressers.
Men may not go out and buy the CD's but they'll watch the videos, talk about how hot the girls are, etc ( Pussycat Dolls, Girls Aloud, etc). I would agree that it's mainly young girls who buy the music, because of the message it sends out- i.e. ''Listen to us, we're hot, men like us!". So perhaps it would be better to say it's produced for men's titillation and teenage girl's consumption. In any case, the emphasis is on the commodification of women's sexuality- which is not exactly a feminist ideal.
That depends what level of feminism you would like to categorise it as. IMO it is a type of feminism - I point you back to Beyonces new song which is just 4 minutes of condescending bull**** about men. She seems to be so high and mighty, she's figured out everything men think and do and decided to take a jab at it. However, those same 4 minutes could be loaded with everything thats wrong with women - but that of course would have a backlash wouldn't it? Its only equality as long you've got the bigger share...
Fair enough, you think it's a 'level of feminism'. I think it's a clever marketing gimmick- making women think they're empowered by listening to 'girl power lyrics', delivered by a scantily-clad chick. If you really think this is some sort of feminism, you need to brush up on your Simone De Beauvoir Feminism is not a about hating men, it's about equality. 0 -
Explain how it's tongue-in-cheek though. I don't have a problem with the song really ( I kind of like it actually!), I just gave it as an example of a ''possibly'' sexist rap song. Just the word 'ho's' even is fairly derogatory, you would agree?
I wouldn't agree its a derogatory term unless the person who takes offence to it is actually a prostitute (which is what the word ho's refers to, not women in general as is commonly mistaken).So, what, it's only offensive if it's over-played? Cop-out, my friend. Sure, it's annoying to hear a song, any song, over and over again, but if it's offensive, then that's it, doesn't matter how many times you hear it.
You have a good point there but...I don't think its just the over playing of the song thats offensive, its the fact thats it a "one rule for them and another for us" situation. Its just accepted and thats the real downer about it. I decided to listen to the Beyonce song again (well din't have a choice really
) and the more I hear it the angrier I get. Its so condescending on so many levels.. I don't care what she is trying to get across, the song is a patethic "girls know best" whinge. I actually cannot describe in words how much I actually hate even the existance of this song...Of course, singing about break-ups, and how crummy men ( and women) are is a stale cliche, but it is the staple subject of the typical pop song, and has been since the dawn of popular music. What do you suggest women should sing about so?
There are thousands of subjects to write about, and it wouldn't hurt them to say at least something meaningful in their songs at some stage. I'm not saying every song has to be really deep, its just that songs don't need to be so superficial either. Its creating this mindset in young girls that "we're better than men on every level, they're only puppets for us" and thats what pisses me off the most. Call it "girl power" or whatever you want, I see it as cheap sexism that is woefully misguided... I wouldn't go within 10 feet of any woman with such a mindset because they really should just grow the **** up.RE emo- so when women complain about men treating them badly, it's condescending bull****, but when an emo band, for example, does then it's self-pity?
From the emo bands I've heard, there is nothing there in the lyrics to suggest things like "I'm better than women". Emo is short for emotional, and most of the songs seem to lament on lost loves, rather than slating them and belittling an entire gender, which these female pop "artists" seem to excel at.I would agree that it's mainly young girls who buy the music, because of the message it sends out- i.e. ''Listen to us, we're hot, men like us!". In any case, the emphasis is on the commodification of women's sexuality- which is not exactly a feminist ideal.
Again, its not the right image to portray to that market regardless of what feminist ideals it does or does not fall under. Beauty isn't everything, but these songs are imprinting this exact superficial stereotype into the female psyche - that men are just shallow and obsessed with women. Thats why so many women are walking around like their **** doesn't stink or as I like to call it "the beyonce complex". And women wonder why they end up alone?Fair enough, you think it's a 'level of feminism'. I think it's a clever marketing gimmick- making women think they're empowered by listening to 'girl power lyrics', delivered by a scantily-clad chick. If you really think this is some sort of feminism, you need to brush up on your Simone De Beauvoir Feminism is not a about hating men, it's about equality.
I have no time for feminsim or chauvinism in any shape or form or for the people who subscribe to the mindset of either. Regardless of how you see one or the other, they are both futile exercises in oneupmanship. Which is exactly what these pop songs are doing, therefore they are at a base level at least, a part of feminism.0 -
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I wouldn't agree its a derogatory term unless the person who takes offence to it is actually a prostitute (which is what the word ho's refers to, not women in general as is commonly mistaken)
So if somebody referred to your mother, sister or girlfriend as a 'ho' you wouldn't care because it's only offensive to prostitutes?
And how exactly is the song tongue-in-cheek, by the way?
You have a good point there but...I don't think its just the over playing of the song thats offensive, its the fact thats it a "one rule for them and another for us" situation. Its just accepted and thats the real downer about it. I decided to listen to the Beyonce song again (well din't have a choice really) and the more I hear it the angrier I get. Its so condescending on so many levels.. I don't care what she is trying to get across, the song is a patethic "girls know best" whinge. I actually cannot describe in words how much I actually hate even the existance of this song...
Right, so we're now discounting the 'over-played' argument. Therefore, the Ludacris song could possibly be viewed as as sexist and offensive as the Beyoncé song?
I don't really see what's so offensive about the Beyoncé song- she's saying if she was a boy she would treat her girlfriend well because she would understand women because she's a woman herself ( okay, it's not award-winning song writing) but I don't see how it's anti-men really. If a guy wrote a song from a man's point of view i.e. 'If I Was a Girl' I don't think it would be particularly offensive either.There are thousands of subjects to write about, and it wouldn't hurt them to say at least something meaningful in their songs at some stage. I'm not saying every song has to be really deep, its just that songs don't need to be so superficial either. Its creating this mindset in young girls that "we're better than men on every level, they're only puppets for us" and thats what pisses me off the most. Call it "girl power" or whatever you want, I see it as cheap sexism that is woefully misguided... I wouldn't go within 10 feet of any woman with such a mindset because they really should just grow the **** up.
I actually agree with this point. And this is why I don't listen to pop music much myself, because most of the songs are shallow and superficial. However, like I said before, most 'radio hits' are written on the subject of love and heart break .
I would say it's actually creating a mindset in young girls that ''we need to look and act a certain way or men won't find us attractive''. If anybody is being treated like puppets it's eejits like the Pussycat Dolls , dancing like strippers for money.
It is cheap sexism- but I would say the sexism is largely directed at the female audience! :pac:
From the emo bands I've heard, there is nothing there in the lyrics to suggest things like "I'm better than women". Emo is short for emotional, and most of the songs seem to lament on lost loves, rather than slating them and belittling an entire gender, which these female pop "artists" seem to excel at.
But surely most female artists' songs don't belittle an entire gender either? If they're talking about breaking-up with somebody they're going to sound angry or sad at that person, though. Just because they're saying one man treated them badly, it doesn't mean they're saying all men are b@stards.
Again, its not the right image to portray to that market regardless of what feminist ideals it does or does not fall under. Beauty isn't everything, but these songs are imprinting this exact superficial stereotype into the female psyche - that men are just shallow and obsessed with women. Thats why so many women are walking around like their **** doesn't stink or as I like to call it "the beyonce complex". And women wonder why they end up alone?
I would also agree with this with some minor contentions. Firstly, the thing is is that it falls under no classification of feminism whatsoever. Feminism is not promoting a woman's sexuality as a commodity- that is the furthest thing from feminism!
I'd actually venture that because of the shallow stereotype that some of these songs promote-that men are shallow and obsessed with women's looks- that along with the 'beyoncé complex' women, there are several teenage girls growing up with the dangerous idea that men only like women for their looks / sluttiness.I have no time for feminsim or chauvinism in any shape or form or for the people who subscribe to the mindset of either. Regardless of how you see one or the other, they are both futile exercises in oneupmanship. Which is exactly what these pop songs are doing, therefore they are at a base level at least, a part of feminism.
Again, the songs of Beyoncé, Katy Perry or the Pussycat Dolls are in no way , shape or form embracing or are a part of feminism. Not being a smart-arse, but if you really want to understand what feminism actually is read the works of Simone De Beauvoir. Feminism has been made a dirty word in the media (largely due to the ''Let's call man-holes 'people-holes' " brigade). These songs are not feminist.0 -
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=293TjxqZ7rg
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