Protest Traffic

pretty-in-pink

Took me over an hour this morning, and this evening on the bus. Walking tomorrow. Still lots of people over at leainster house, street still closed.

Its craziness, and will the governmant back down? My sources say....no.

Has anyone else here been affected by the mad traffic jams today?

Mark200

What are the protests about now?


I get the train into Pearse every morning so I wasn't even aware of the goings on that you're talking about

Hogzy

Yes but in cork. Some road collapsed into the sea and it was quite an important road. one that leads out of the city and serves the east side of the city oh ya it goes to Dublin aswell. the bloody N8 collapsed in cork...GRIDLOCK

Quazzie

Dublin forum is thatta way >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Someone there might care!!!

FlutterinBantam

Govt. won't back down, to answer your question.

Very few have too much sympathy for the teachers.

Overpaid underworked privileged shower who, in reality couldn't care less about the children, just using them for their own advantage.

If they were so concerned, forego their 2 and a half % rise .

That would deliver the same savings.

Dose of reality needed folks.

mumhaabu

tbh

randylonghorn

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Very few have too much sympathy for the teachers.

Overpaid underworked privileged shower who, in reality couldn't care less about the children, just using them for their own advantage.

Generalisations ftw. :rolleyes:

Here's a couple of equally valid ones:

"All Dubliners are scumbags"

"All culchies shag sheep"

"All Limerick people carry knives"

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

If they were so concerned, forego their 2 and a half % rise.

Now, you see, this is actually a valid point, and what do you know? ... I agree with you!

Dyr

Didnt see the old teachers hitting the streets when the govt was diverting education funds into teaching the fordiner kids to speaky english proper.

Cynical agenda pushers to a man, send in the gardai sez I

randylonghorn

Bambi wrote: »

Didnt see the old teachers hitting the streets when the govt was diverting education funds into teaching the fordiner kids to speaky english proper.

Probably because most of them are intelligent enough to realise that trying to deal with classes where some children didn't have good English meant both the "fordiners" and the local kids were losing out.

Oh, shit, wait ... this is AH!

I mean ... yeah, right!!! They should have volunteered to learn to speak five languages simultaneously, and taken a pay-cut, and lined up to give Bambi head as well!! :cool:

Dyr

The local kids were losing out one way or the other but the oul teachers werent too upset. :pac:

Dinter

Frankly I'd agree with Fluts that people have no sympathy with teachers and their cushy hols and short hours. It's very hard to take their motivations seriously especially when they made my commute an hour longer. :eek:

I'd allow class sizes to increase but have classes run for an hour longer. Surely that'll be the best way to ensure that the extra kids will get a modicum of education as they play musical chairs for desk space?

That will also cut down on parents after school fees which in this time of dwindling pay can only be good.

seamus

Dinter wrote: »

Frankly I'd agree with Fluts that people have no sympathy with teachers and their cushy hols and short hours. It's very hard to take their motivations seriously especially when they made my commute an hour longer. :eek:

No, people don't care all that much about the teachers. However, they do care about the kids.

The best point I've heard made in this whole debate is that if you cut funding and reduce the standards/quality of a child's education, they can't get that back. You can't go back and repeat your primary or secondary school education later on when the economy improves. So for the sake of a few pennies which could easily be saved elsewhere, you're giving 100,000 or so kids a poorer education for life.

Even when times were good, our Government were spending well below the OECD average on education as a function of GDP. They can't justify any further cuts.

I also don't care about your commute. Get off your lazy arse and cycle or walk.

Dinter

seamus wrote: »

No, people don't care all that much about the teachers. However, they do care about the kids.

Really. Care enough that we should swing in wholeheartedly behind an education system that's already failing them and that's led by an unscrupulous gang of special interests. Oh yeah, that's going to get things sorted out.

seamus wrote: »

The best point I've heard made in this whole debate is that if you cut funding and reduce the standards/quality of a child's education, they can't get that back. You can't go back and repeat your primary or secondary school education later on when the economy improves. So for the sake of a few pennies which could easily be saved elsewhere, you're giving 100,000 or so kids a poorer education for life.

You can cut funding by increasing workload. Class sizes may swell but so too would the opportunities for education.

seamus wrote: »

Even when times were good, our Government were spending well below the OECD average on education as a function of GDP. They can't justify any further cuts..

No they can't but there again my point, if you bothered to read it, was that you don't cut service in fact you increase it. Teachers could work longer or take less holidays. Perhaps our risible school year which seems to be on par with the Dail these days could be increased? Allow them the funding they require but look for an increase on productivity.

Oh I forgot it's all the government's fault.

seamus wrote: »

I also don't care about your commute. Get off your lazy arse and cycle or walk.

I don't think I asked for your opinion actually but as a matter of interest I found the timing of this protest interesting. In the middle of a mid term break at the minute. No wonder teachers could turn out.

Trampas

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Govt. won't back down, to answer your question.

Very few have too much sympathy for the teachers.

Overpaid underworked privileged shower who, in reality couldn't care less about the children, just using them for their own advantage.

If they were so concerned, forego their 2 and a half % rise .

That would deliver the same savings.

Dose of reality needed folks.

Guess you know nothing what is going on and what teachers do.

The teachers are offering to defer their pay rise which is due to them.

They are pushing class sizes up.

Some schools have a lot of foreign nationals who can hardly speak a word of English so these kids are taking up a lot of time from kids.

What will happen is the good kids will not improve and stand still as teacher will not have time to give them extra work. The worse kids will get worse because of the same situation.

You know teachers have to do work outside school which they don't get paid for.

They don't get days off during the school term unless they do some courses which they pay for it themselves.

smallBiscuit

Cut the funding so class sizes increase and the teachers protest, cut their pay though (or rather don't give them a rise) ......... Mass riots

But tbh it is a bad idea anyway, what the government are doing is cutting funding for the future, while all the overpaid, under worked civil servants still get their raises. I read in the paper that one of the gov departments are going to cut overtime but will be giving all the staff a 30k bonus instead.
My OT was cut a couple of months ago, costing me 15k a year, what did I get???
Make your best guess

Dinter

Trampas wrote: »

They don't get days off during the school term unless they do some courses which they pay for it themselves.

God, how on earth do they manage? I never knew they had it so rough.

seamus

Dinter wrote: »

Really. Care enough that we should swing in wholeheartedly behind an education system that's already failing them and that's led by an unscrupulous gang of special interests. Oh yeah, that's going to get things sorted out.

What special interests? The teachers? Yeah, imagine people wanting to keep their jobs. Shocking.

You can cut funding by increasing workload. Class sizes may swell but so too would the opportunities for education.

Increasing class sizes will improve education? Is that actually what you're saying?

No they can't but there again my point, if you bothered to read it, was that you don't cut service in fact you increase it. Teachers could work longer or take less holidays. Perhaps our risible school year which seems to be on par with the Dail these days could be increased? Allow them the funding they require but look for an increase on productivity.

How do you propose you increase productivity? The hours that teachers work are dictated by the hours that we have kids in school. I don't know about you, but there's no way I'd ask a ten year old to be in school from 9am to 6pm 5 days a week and with only 4 weeks holidays per year. Children's education is about more than sitting them in a classroom. You need to include ample time outside of the classroom.
I hated school as it was. I probably would have dropped out in 3rd year if I was spending 9 hours a day in the bloody place for 12 years.

So despite your jealous rantings and ravings about teachers having tonnes of time off (and no I'm not a teacher nor am I related to one), your only suggestion is to "increase productivity", without any proposals on how we would do that without making the quality of education suffer. Wow, how long did it take you dream that one up?

At best we could/should introduce a strict grading system for teachers that put them at a very real risk of losing their jobs for underperforming, but that doesn't address the issue of under funding.

We could require them to participate in extracurricular activities during the breaks, but that would require more government funding, not less.

In the middle of a mid term break at the minute. No wonder teachers could turn out.

You would prefer that they striked during the school term?

Trampas

Dinter wrote: »

In the middle of a mid term break at the minute. No wonder teachers could turn out.

So it is not ok to protest outside work days.

If they protested during a school day you would be giving out that they should be school and not protesting and it is harming the students

Geology

They should all shaddup. When I was in national school, there were 37 kids in my class. Despite this, we all managed to emerge from school able to read and write. To add to the sheer amazingness of it all, a lot of us even managed to get our Leaving Certs and go on to third level education.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dinter wrote: »

You can cut funding by increasing workload. Class sizes may swell but so too would the opportunities for education.

How does swollen class size help kids? And how does this increase "oppertunities" in education...? [/QUOTE]

Oh I forgot it's all the government's fault.

Exactly. Why didn't they make the nessecary moves when the country had the money?

I don't think I asked for your opinion actually but as a matter of interest I found the timing of this protest interesting. In the middle of a mid term break at the minute. No wonder teachers could turn out.

Would you have prefered that they went on strike during term time? Dear God, how moany would you have been then??!

Dinter

seamus wrote: »

What special interests? The teachers? Yeah, imagine people wanting to keep their jobs. Shocking.

Yeah imagine people wanting to keep their jobs while ensuring that there is no change to the status quo that might impact on them being held responsible for their failings.

seamus wrote: »

Increasing class sizes will improve education? Is that actually what you're saying?

Hmmm, no, that's your furious need to reply without reading the post clouding your ability to understand. What I said was as an alternative to unilatterally slashing funding. A better option if you will, though obviously not perfect.

seamus wrote: »

How do you propose you increase productivity? The hours that teachers work are dictated by the hours that we have kids in school. I don't know about you, but there's no way I'd ask a ten year old to be in school from 9am to 6pm 5 days a week and with only 4 weeks holidays per year. Children's education is about more than sitting them in a classroom. You need to include ample time outside of the classroom.

Well I don't know what fairytale kingdom you live in but everyone I know is forced to send their children to afterschool so it's not as if they arrive home to be cuddled, fed and put to bed by loving parents who unfortunately, in reality, are still in work. You're damn right they should be kept in education for longer as frankly it makes no odds to them what time they finish.

seamus wrote: »

So despite your jealous rantings and ravings about teachers having tonnes of time off (and no I'm not a teacher nor am I related to one), your only suggestion is to "increase productivity", without any proposals on how we would do that without making the quality of education suffer. Wow, how long did it take you dream that one up?

You do realise that their huge holidays are a fact. I'm beginning to wonder just how much exposure to the education system you've had. Have you ever met a teacher?

Basic economics and also the new multicultural state of the country for example, ensure that education is going to suffer. My way at least gives a slight chance of maintaining our position which is more than budget cuts would.

seamus wrote: »

At best we could/should introduce a strict grading system for teachers that put them at a very real risk of losing their jobs for underperforming, but that doesn't address the issue of under funding.

Good idea. Tbh this does address the issues of under funding in some way as the teachers we are getting would be forced to work harder for the money they get.

seamus wrote: »

We could require them to participate in extracurricular activities during the breaks, but that would require more government funding, not less.

Yes but instead you force them to do it within the budget allocated. That's how all other state bodies are being forced to operate.

seamus wrote: »

You would prefer that they striked during the school term?

You know what time the protest started at?

smallBiscuit

Geology wrote: »

They should all shaddup. When I was in national school, there were 37 kids in my class. Despite this, we all managed to emerge from school able to read and write. To add to the sheer amazingness of it all, a lot of us even managed to get our Leaving Certs and go on to third level education.

Actually, when I went to school, there was 15/16 in my class and the same in they year ahead, but one teacher took both years. So one teacher for 1st and 2nd, one for 3rd and 4th and 1 for 5th and 6th and yet I'm still a fecking genius!

lostinnappies

Larger class sizes imho wouldnt benefit the children... however its that or a very very drastic pay cut in this current economic climate. With larger class sizes its probably a case of teachers being made redundant. So what makes them more special then all the rest of the poor feckers who will be made redundant over the coming years. If thats the case we should all strike:p

Dinter

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

How does swollen class size help kids? And how does this increase "oppertunities" in education...?
Exactly. Why didn't they make the nessecary moves when the country had the money?Would you have prefered that they went on strike during term time? Dear God, how moany would you have been then??!

Hmmm so somehow I'm advocating increasing class sizes now? Sheesh. What I'm trying to do is show an option that is available if the current economic clime prevails and cuts do go through. Everyone talks about these better places to get money from but tbh all you're doing is shying away from reality. There's fook all cash about.

Also I'm no fan of the government. Bunch of useless pricks. Don't think I've ever posted with support for them.

Of course it's a lot easier to jump on the bandwagon and starting crying rather than try and debate solutions. Still tbh there's no better man than yourself for that.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dinter wrote: »

Well I don't know what fairytale kingdom you live in but everyone I know is forced to send their children to afterschool so it's not as if they arrive home to be cuddled, fed and put to bed by loving parents who unfortunately, in reality, are still in work. You're damn right they should be kept in education for longer as frankly it makes no odds to them what time they finish.

So you're in favour of laws promoting families being kept apart then? I'll remember that the next time I see you posting conservative sh1te in scumbag threads. Family begins apart.

You do realise that their huge holidays are a fact. I'm beginning to wonder just how much exposure to the education system you've had. Have you ever met a teacher?

I'm beginning to wonder abotu yours. Whatever you think of teachers, I don't think you give a flying fvck about kids.

Good idea. Tbh this does address the issues of under funding in some way as the teachers we are getting would be forced to work harder for the money they get.

Out if interest, what do you do for a living?

Yes but instead you force them to do it within the budget allocated. That's how all other state bodies are being forced to operate.

In Ireland, yes. In modern European countries, no. Children are respected.

lostinnappies wrote: »

Larger class sizes imho wouldnt benefit the children... however its that or a very very drastic pay cut in this current economic climate. With larger class sizes its probably a case of teachers being made redundent. So what makes them more special then all the rest of the poor feckers who will be made redundent over the coming years. If thats the case we should all strike:p

If I'm ever lucky enough to have kids, I hope they have better teachers than yours do.

Dinter again wrote:

Hmmm so somehow I'm advocating increasing class sizes now? Sheesh. What I'm trying to do is show an option that is available if the current economic clime prevails and cuts do go through. Everyone talks about these better places to get money from but tbh all you're doing is shying away from reality. There's fook all cash about.

Also I'm no fan of the government. Bunch of useless pricks. Don't think I've ever posted with support for them.

Of course it's a lot easier to jump on the bandwagon and starting crying rather than try and debate solutions. Still tbh there's no better man than yourself for that

I believe you said it would increse oppertunity and would be in favour of it if it gave teachers more work, so yes.

Bandwagon? Now you're just guessing. I've been saying that the government should be sorting out infrastructure for years now. And I knew they wouldn't, which is why I spent two years saving up to leave the country. Hardly a 'bandwagon' jump.

lostinnappies

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

If I'm ever lucky enough to have kids, I hope they have better teachers than yours do.

.

Firstly you know nothing of me or my kids so dont get arsey with me. Secondly i have no idea why you would get your knickers in a twist over what i posted. All i ment was yes larger class sizes do not benefit the child but what can you do. In the current economic climate there isnt enough financial reasources or confidence available to make teachers a priority. They should just be thankful the ones that have a job still have a job.

gazzer

smallBiscuit wrote: »

I read in the paper that one of the gov departments are going to cut overtime but will be giving all the staff a 30k bonus instead.

What paper did you read that in? There isnt a sniff of Overtime in most government departments. I have worked in 5 different government departments and only every got OT in one of them. Id love to know what department was giving staff a 30K bonus.. Never going to happen

Dinter

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

So you're in favour of laws promoting families being kept apart then? I'll remember that the next time I see you posting conservative sh1te in scumbag threads. Family begins apart.

Oh get over yourself. With your tears rolling down your cheeks as you sob quietly and wring your hands while wailing "won't someone think of the children". Real martyr to any cause. Ffs I'm in favour of providing children with the best upbringing they can have and unfortunately these days it means working every hour you can. What I'm saying is children could be taught for longer rather than languishing in after hours care.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I'm beginning to wonder abotu yours. Whatever you think of teachers, I don't think you give a flying fvck about kids.

Can't be sure I'm understanding your point over the sound of your hiccuping and upset sniffs but I believe you think it best to lend your support to a system that already underperforms rather than look for a new direction. Good thinking.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Out if interest, what do you do for a living?

Minister for Finance.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

In Ireland, yes. In modern European countries, no. Children are respected.

You reckon. Tell me what's the length of the school year in Germany?

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I believe you said it would increse oppertunity and would be in favour of it if it gave teachers more work, so yes.

Rather than just endless cuts? Of course it would. How is that so hard to understand?

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Bandwagon? Now you're just guessing. I've been saying that the government should be sorting out infrastructure for years now. And I knew they wouldn't, which is why I spent two years saving up to leave the country. Hardly a 'bandwagon' jump.

Well hindsight is always 20:20. Anyway I don't deal with the past. Beyond continuing my policy of not voting FF there's not a whole lot can be done by me personally.

When faced with the realities of our economic situation now people seem to think the government is just joking or having a laugh and the huge rollercoaster of the Celtic Tiger is just paused or something. Times change and while I'll be the first to bemoan the lack of progress that happended I'm mature enough to realise there's little point.

seamus

Dinter wrote: »

Hmmm, no, that's your furious need to reply without reading the post clouding your ability to understand. What I said was as an alternative to unilatterally slashing funding. A better option if you will, though obviously not perfect.

The issue is not necessarily that funding is being slashed. It's the impact of that on the quality of education. Increasing class sizes reduces the quality of education, so as an "alternative" it's not much better.

You do realise that their huge holidays are a fact. I'm beginning to wonder just how much exposure to the education system you've had. Have you ever met a teacher?

Indeed their huge holidays are a fact. But most of them work harder than most of us when they do work. A teacher's job doesn't involve going to school in the morning and returning home in the early afternoon. Much of their free time during the week is spent correcting homework, preparing class plans, and surprise surprise volunteering with extracurricular sports and other activites. I work 9 to 5.30 Monday to Friday and that's it. The same is true for most of the rest of us.

I'm not saying that it offsets their holidays, but you seem to have some fairytale idea that teachers go into work, put their feet on the desk all day and then toddle off home to watch daytime TV, whistling while they go. Personally, you couldn't pay me any amount of money to stand in front of 30 screaming brats (some of whom aren't even toilet-trained in the younger grades) all day then spend half my evening correcting homework and planning classes. Even if I did get 4 months off per year.

Have you ever met a teacher?

Yes but instead you force them to do it within the budget allocated. That's how all other state bodies are being forced to operate.

You can't spend money you don't have. If the budget is already stretched, then "forcing" them to add extra costs within budget is exactly the same as cutting it.

You know what time the protest started at?

How is that relevant? If it was during term time, it would have been a strike. Teachers don't all work 5 minutes from Dail Eireann.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dinter wrote: »

Oh get over yourself. With your tears rolling down your cheeks as you sob quietly and wring your hands while wailing "won't someone think of the children". Real martyr to any cause. Ffs I'm in favour of providing children with the best upbringing they can have and unfortunately these days it means working every hour you can. What I'm saying is children could be taught for longer rather than languishing in after hours care.



Can't be sure I'm understanding your point over the sound of your hiccuping and upset sniffs but I believe you think it best to lend your support to a system that already underperforms rather than look for a new direction. Good thinking.



Minister for Finance.



You reckon. Tell me what's the length of the school year in Germany?



Rather than just endless cuts? Of course it would. How is that so hard to understand?



Well hindsight is always 20:20. Anyway I don't deal with the past. Beyond continuing my policy of not voting FF there's not a whole lot can be done by me personally.

When faced with the realities of our economic situation now people seem to think the government is just joking or having a laugh and the huge rollercoaster of the Celtic Tiger is just paused or something. Times change and while I'll be the first to bemoan the lack of progress that happended I'm mature enough to realise there's little point.

Are you going to hide behind insanely wild assumptions or answer the points maturely? Average term-time in Germany varies from district to district. And hindsight wasn't nessecary - any idiot could have seen this coming.

Dinter

seamus wrote: »

snip

Tbh this is all blowing out of proportion. The Government have to take cuts from somewhere and it is an established policy elsewhere in the civil service to increase productivity with no reward. See staff embargos or ot embargos etc.

This is of course the equivalent of a cut but on the same hand it softens the impact that children will suffer by increasing, as far as possible, the opportunities to educate them. Sure it's not perfect but we're in a hard place and something has to be done at least to tide us over.

I do believe that money should be found but it's all very easy to say that, it's not so easy to find it. Teachers holidays are a reality that people pay for, first by direct taxation and secondly by having to pay child minders etc. If the school year was increased that would save everyone money which could be used to improve a family's quality of life day to day.

Just think you're paying around 650 nett a week to someone to mind your child because you can't. Even an extra 3 weeks in school would be the guts of two grand that could be spent on summer camps or school activities.

Dinter

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Are you going to hide behind insanely wild assumptions or answer the points maturely? Average term-time in Germany varies from district to district. And hindsight wasn't nessecary - any idiot could have seen this coming.

As usual you're contributing nothing and just piggy backing on points other people are making far more eloquently and concisely than you can so it's hard to be bothered replying to your hysterical wailings.

smallBiscuit

gazzer wrote: »

What paper did you read that in? There isnt a sniff of Overtime in most government departments. I have worked in 5 different government departments and only every got OT in one of them. Id love to know what department was giving staff a 30K bonus.. Never going to happen

Yesterdays Indo, page 22 "Public servants get €30,000 each to give up overtime"
Effects Customs and Laboratory Tech's

deadwood

It's amazing how many people complain about how easy teachers have it - massive holidays. Huge Salary. Easy Hours. Coffee all day. Free school tours.

If this was the case, why doesn't every right thinking qualified person become a teacher?

We'll gladly fork out a few hundred quid a week to some unqualified person to mind our kids in a makeshift creche so they can watch cbeebies all day, but when it comes to the people who are trained and qualified to do so all week (i'm not suggesting teachers are there to mind our kids) - we want their educational, spiritual, physical educational, disciplinary needs looked after and complain when they protest for better pay and conditions?

Bat O Keeffe whinged that the teachers unions were only looking out for the interests of the teachers. Imagine that. As if the Government ministers had ever done anything in their own interests.

Captain Darling

Eduaction Fail Thread!

JaneyMc

I was in at the protest last night and very little was said about the teachers, the main points were all about how the children will suffer because of the cuts.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dinter wrote: »

As usual you're contributing nothing and just piggy backing on points other people are making far more eloquently and concisely than you can so it's hard to be bothered replying to your hysterical wailings.

Brilliant! This from the man who decided to totally ignore my post and pretend I was crying over chlidren...?

Dinter, if you're going to make stuff up, at least make it believeable!!