Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
If we do not hit our goal we will be forced to close the site.

Current status: https://keepboardsalive.com/

Annual subs are best for most impact. If you are still undecided on going Ad Free - you can also donate using the Paypal Donate option. All contribution helps. Thank you.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.

cannabis and the martial arts

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭Kila


    To step slightly outside conjecture here - there have been numerous studies done on the use of various doping agents in sports, cannabis included.

    These studies have differed on a number of points, but one which has remained consistent across studies has been the assertion that cannabis is an ergolytic (rather than an ergogenic) drug - i.e. a drug which physically and/or mentally impairs a user.

    In addition to a number of studies demonstrating negative correlation between elite athletes and drug use in sport, there have also been studies where the effects of cannabis in athletes has been directly monitored. In a study of ten male cyclists, it was shown that their peak performance dropped after taking cannabis. In another study of 161 athletes who were given cannabis, a general decrement in standing steadiness, simple and complex reaction times, and psychomotor skills was observed.

    Cannabis makes the heart work harder and limits sports performance. It increases heart rate and decreases cardiac stroke volume. If you honestly think that this will improve your sports performance, then you must have a very poor understanding of how your body works, and how best to make your body work for your chosen sport.

    In particular, if you are doing martial arts, you're not just putting yourself at risk, but you're putting your partner at risk too - generally speaking, you don't pursue any martial art completely alone, which means that when you are training high, you're training with someone else. As a complete aside from quite possibly detracting from their training session by being a poor partner, you're also at risk of hurting them because you are physically and/or mentally impaired. Your fine joint manipulation skills will not function as well (exactly the same as if you were drunk, or if your body was dumping adrenaline), and your body will be under increased stress to perform every move.

    With all of the above considered, I can't see why anyone would think it's a good idea to get high before training, because it seems so very careless. You wouldn't train if you were sick, you wouldn't train if you were drunk, why train if you're high?



    Sources:
    * Ergolytic drugs in medicine and sport - Eichner ER ; AM J Med, 1993; 94 (2), 205-11
    * Marijuana as doping in sports - Campos D.R., Yonamine M, and de Moraes Moreau R.L. ; Sports Med 2003; 33 (6): 395-399
    * Sporting activity and drug use: alcohol, cigarette and cannabis use among elite student athletes - Peretti-Watel P., Guagliardo V., Verger P., Pruvost J., Mignon P., Obadia Y. ; Addiction, 98, 1249–1256


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭t-ha


    Nice post ^^^ but I don't think the argument is for peak work output or similar qualities - it's more about intent focus on a single task and being physically very relaxed and enhancing kinesthesia.

    Personally I can't stand the stuff - feeling sleepy? I can do that on my own! Also the craziness is a problem...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭Kila


    Some studies agree that it relaxes you, but not that it makes you focussed. It actively impairs your performance in a number of simple and non-simple tasks by impairing you both physically and mentally, neither of which will enhance your ability.

    I'm not just quoting those studies as an example of how it affects peak performance, but just about how it affects performance in general. If it affects fine motor control, psychomotor movements, balance, reaction times, etc., then it doesn't matter whether you're just training for the hell of it, or training for the Olympics, you're still kidding yourself if you think your getting more out of your training by getting high.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    Clive wrote: »
    Well I've trained both stoned and drunk and I can indeed confirm that neither particularly opened my mind. It's just like having sex - drunk you're happy to lash away until you quickly get tired, stoned you're happy to chill in poor positions as long as you're safe.

    Anyways, I can't believe that people actually buy into the Eddie Bravo/Joe Rogan foolishness - it's all a marketing ploy.
    That bottom bit was my point re: Rogan, and that top bit is not going to get you any from all the ladeez who don't read this forum.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,729 ✭✭✭Pride Fighter


    Kila wrote: »
    To step slightly outside conjecture here - there have been numerous studies done on the use of various doping agents in sports, cannabis included.

    These studies have differed on a number of points, but one which has remained consistent across studies has been the assertion that cannabis is an ergolytic (rather than an ergogenic) drug - i.e. a drug which physically and/or mentally impairs a user.

    In addition to a number of studies demonstrating negative correlation between elite athletes and drug use in sport, there have also been studies where the effects of cannabis in athletes has been directly monitored. In a study of ten male cyclists, it was shown that their peak performance dropped after taking cannabis. In another study of 161 athletes who were given cannabis, a general decrement in standing steadiness, simple and complex reaction times, and psychomotor skills was observed.

    Cannabis makes the heart work harder and limits sports performance. It increases heart rate and decreases cardiac stroke volume. If you honestly think that this will improve your sports performance, then you must have a very poor understanding of how your body works, and how best to make your body work for your chosen sport.

    In particular, if you are doing martial arts, you're not just putting yourself at risk, but you're putting your partner at risk too - generally speaking, you don't pursue any martial art completely alone, which means that when you are training high, you're training with someone else. As a complete aside from quite possibly detracting from their training session by being a poor partner, you're also at risk of hurting them because you are physically and/or mentally impaired. Your fine joint manipulation skills will not function as well (exactly the same as if you were drunk, or if your body was dumping adrenaline), and your body will be under increased stress to perform every move.

    With all of the above considered, I can't see why anyone would think it's a good idea to get high before training, because it seems so very careless. You wouldn't train if you were sick, you wouldn't train if you were drunk, why train if you're high?



    Sources:
    * Ergolytic drugs in medicine and sport - Eichner ER ; AM J Med, 1993; 94 (2), 205-11
    * Marijuana as doping in sports - Campos D.R., Yonamine M, and de Moraes Moreau R.L. ; Sports Med 2003; 33 (6): 395-399
    * Sporting activity and drug use: alcohol, cigarette and cannabis use among elite student athletes - Peretti-Watel P., Guagliardo V., Verger P., Pruvost J., Mignon P., Obadia Y. ; Addiction, 98, 1249–1256

    It does not explain Nick Diaz battering Takanori Gomi while shitfaced does it.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Nothingcompares


    You don't understand Pride_fighter. Surely it's more resonable to conclude that Diaz won that fight despite being under the influences of cannabis. Imagine how he would have ****ed him up while "sober"?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    Excellent well founded and backed up post kila


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,729 ✭✭✭Pride Fighter


    You don't understand Pride_fighter. Surely it's more resonable to conclude that Diaz won that fight despite being under the influences of cannabis. Imagine how he would have ****ed him up while "sober"?

    He would never have seen such a wild submission if we were to believe the likes of Bravo and Rogan. I think it was the first ever omoplata in MMA!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭jim o doom


    Roper wrote: »
    Whereas cannabis is... legal now?

    As a guy with a troublesome social conscience I can't in all honesty pay into an industry that promotes and pays for gangs, death and violence. Even if my money is paying for what is obviously a benign drug, it's also paying for heroin importation and supply.

    Maybe something to think about. Probably you'll ignore it though.

    I see this argument trotted out so often it totally sickens me. PLENTY of people grow their own; and use and share with friends, is that helping the importation of heroin or drug gangs? no. a friend of mine with MS grows his own, how does that help "crime"? I don't grow, but I would love to.. whenever I manage to get a house, eh?

    With regards to training, I have only done it high a few times, and it wasn't good for me - I was defo slower & doing loads of squats & pushups as part of a warm up is not fun at all (for me) when whacked! That being said, after a good work out, a shower, a nice meal & then a few smokes is great to chill out and relax :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    plenty don't grow their in Ireland. You need specialist equipment and knowledge. The vast majority is imported and sold by very nasty people. I couldn't care less what you do to yourself beyond that. If you like you can grow some opium poppies in your attic and have yourself a great time.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭PADRAIC.M


    just to point out it was a gogoplata not an omoplata, and its the second one successfully done in mma, first was 2 months earlier by shinya aoki on Joachim hansen at prides new years eve show.
    Now back on topic! :-)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,729 ✭✭✭Pride Fighter


    PADRAIC.M wrote: »
    just to point out it was a gogoplata not an omoplata, and its the second one successfully done in mma, first was 2 months earlier by shinya aoki on Joachim hansen at prides new years eve show.
    Now back on topic! :-)

    I was shitfaced while typing, I have no idea what I was typing:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    jim o doom wrote: »
    I see this argument trotted out so often it totally sickens me. PLENTY of people grow their own; and use and share with friends, is that helping the importation of heroin or drug gangs? no. a friend of mine with MS grows his own, how does that help "crime"? I don't grow, but I would love to.. whenever I manage to get a house, eh?
    I'm sure that every dealer you've ever bought off "only sells to his mates" too eh?

    My friend grows his own, has a greenhouse and everything and has them in between the tomatoes. He reckons he can just about support his own modest recreational habit with 2 large plants but he still has to go to dealers occasionally. Having seen the lengths he goes to to be self reliant, I don't believe in the "I grow my own" bollocks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3 Drederick tatum


    Cannabis is for losers, smoking in general is a joke and any lads that consider themselves athletes while smoking anything are muppets-:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    Cannabis is for losers, smoking in general is a joke and any lads that consider themselves athletes while smoking anything are muppets-:)

    And what about drinkers? Real science (unfettered by certain interests) would seem to suggest that recreational use of cannabis is far more healthy than alcohol use. Most people drink to some extent, athletes or otherwise. People point to effects on the lungs but alcohol effects blood sugar, the liver and on and on and on...

    I don't think it's so cut and dried. (badoom tis)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Roper wrote: »
    And what about drinkers?
    I don't think it's so cut and dried. (badoom tis)

    I agree.

    Drinking while been in season for an athlete is stupid too, or for a fighter in the time your preparing for a fight, off season is different imo. ps, i hate smoking at all, so cant stick up for it in anyway.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 204 ✭✭roo1981


    Boston wrote: »
    plenty don't grow their in Ireland. You need specialist equipment and knowledge. .

    Not really, its pretty easy to grow, just depends on how you want to go about it. Some of the biggest plants I've seen have been from seeds that were thrown out in the back yard at the right time of year
    Boston wrote: »
    The vast majority is imported and sold by very nasty people. .

    All the more reason to grow your own
    Boston wrote: »
    I couldn't care less what you do to yourself beyond that. If you like you can grow some opium poppies in your attic and have yourself a great time.

    Funny you should mention that-

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-468430/The-painkilling-fields-Englands-opium-poppies-tackle-NHS-morphine-crisis.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 375 ✭✭Maldini2706


    Clive wrote: »
    Well I've trained both stoned and drunk and I can indeed confirm that neither particularly opened my mind. It's just like having sex - drunk you're happy to lash away until you quickly get tired, stoned you're happy to chill in poor positions as long as you're safe.

    Anyways, I can't believe that people actually buy into the Eddie Bravo/Joe Rogan foolishness - it's all a marketing ploy.

    Marketing for what?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Nothingcompares


    I think we can safely say that Joe Rogan and Eddie Bravo are unofficial spokespeople for the spread of the legalisation of cannabis. So you could argue they are marketing a concept "legalise Hash/pot/weed"

    Obviously it's difficult to tie this topic back to martial arts but like every other reasonable person its easy to see the inconsistency with having alcohol and cigarettes as legal highs and cannabis as illegal highs.

    Maybe if cannabis was legalised in developed world for recreational use it would provide people in the developing world with a cash crop to invest in legitimately and without the hassles of dealing with drug dealers. Perhaps the associated revenue of taxation and the loss of earning for drug dealers would be a good thing for the governements.

    But then again, how can a society that is trying to wean its citizens off alcohol and cigarette (ab)use sanction another recreational drug? And why stop at cannabis, surely ecstasy and mushrooms should receive the same hypothetical treatment? (not sure what the current status is on magic mushrooms).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 375 ✭✭Maldini2706


    I think we can safely say that Joe Rogan and Eddie Bravo are unofficial spokespeople for the spread of the legalisation of cannabis. So you could argue they are marketing a concept "legalise Hash/pot/weed"

    Obviously it's difficult to tie this topic back to martial arts but like every other reasonable person its easy to see the inconsistency with having alcohol and cigarettes as legal highs and cannabis as illegal highs.

    Maybe if cannabis was legalised in developed world for recreational use it would provide people in the developing world with a cash crop to invest in legitimately and without the hassles of dealing with drug dealers. Perhaps the associated revenue of taxation and the loss of earning for drug dealers would be a good thing for the governements.

    But then again, how can a society that is trying to wean its citizens off alcohol and cigarette (ab)use sanction another recreational drug? And why stop at cannabis, surely ecstasy and mushrooms should receive the same hypothetical treatment? (not sure what the current status is on magic mushrooms).

    Weed more or less is legal in California where they live, anyone who suffers from "stress" or "insomnia" can get it on prescription. I know where you're coming from, but there are far more compelling arguments for legalisation than it improving someone's BJJ game, besides, marketing suggests they're selling something.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭HammerHeadGym


    The fact is people need to escape the crushing drudgery of their lives. Some turn to religion, others to sports and others still to drugs (legal and illegal). Anyone who wants to get anything, can. In this town at least. The government may as well be taxing it as giving it to the drug dealers. If it was legalised and government controlled everyone would win. The user would get quality drugs and not have to worry about health risks, as much. The government would be receiving tax from the millions of people who use recreational drugs. And the rest of society would be rewarded with a massive decrease in the crime related to drug addiction. (burgalries, robbery, mugging etc). Plus every drug user could then receve correct medical treatment and advice and regular counselling.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭roneythetube


    Weed more or less is legal in California where they live, anyone who suffers from "stress" or "insomnia" can get it on prescription. I know where you're coming from, but there are far more compelling arguments for legalisation than it improving someone's BJJ game, besides, marketing suggests they're selling something.


    i agree that there are more valid reasons for legalisation but be sure that cannabis will certainly not make you a better BJJ player. u may gain more enjoyment and work better while using cannabis when rolling but it will in no way make you improve yer game!

    some folk seem opposed to the idea of using cannabis alongside their martial art as the individual is deemed to be in an 'altered' state of consciousness therefore not fit to participate...
    so think about
    the hyper-stressed caffine dosed executive who arrives after a long exhausting stressful day. he is frazzled and stressed.
    is his consciousness 'normal'?

    or a father whose daughter has been assaulted. he arrives at the club with helpless rage and anger flowing through his system. then he steps into the ring with a young man who may have a similar appearance/background to his daughter attackers..is this man in the 'correct' state of mind?

    or a student who has been staying awake for days to complete a thesis. is his mind 'normal' after days of sleep deprivation?

    or a buddhist student arriving at the dojo after 24 hours meditation - is his mind altered?

    i aware these are extreme examples but just to highlight that different factors can create different states of mind. and that being 'high' (as people seem to want to put it) is not really any reason not to take part in ones chosen martial art.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 56 ✭✭HOBO 83


    I think its shocking how openly Joe Rogan and Eddie Bravo admit to using drugs, I'm not trying to preach to anybody, what people do is entirely there own business, but to come out on the net and openly promote it is a differant story.These people are in a certain role and need to realise that.
    I have a 14 year old brother who is starting out boxing and really enjoys the whole fight scene, he is a huge UFC fan and is also a big fan of the domestic MMA scene here, he goes to most of the shows that would be on in Ireland.
    It is hard enough for him and lots of kids like him to say no to the pier pressure of "smoking a joint" and the next thing they see is there role models sayin how great it is to smoke drugs and then take part in the sports that these kids love.
    There is nothin great about it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭Dave Joyce


    the next thing they see is there role models sayin how great it is to smoke drugs and then take part in the sports that these kids love.

    Great post HOBO. Laying my cards on the table, completely think drugs are for losers and don't fall for this pile of SHEET, that it really helps people to relax. If you're life is that bad, change your job/where you live rather than have a smoke, man:rolleyes:! Its amazing when in some previous discussions on this forum certain people advocated having a good healthy lifestyle rather than concentrating on certain forms of martial arts training and yet we have people espousing the benefits of smoking dope.

    Final couple of points, using dope for medicinal purposes by health professionals is by infusion NOT by having a smoke. Very few people have brought up the serious psychotic effects of long term dope use has on users. Then the EVEN more serious rubbish argument for legalisation. Do advocates REALLY think Amsterdam is all the better for legalisation OR that the criminal element have disappeared from the scene over there. Do you think that a black market could still NOT occur if drugs were legalised AND where exactly do you stop, just the so called "soft" (sic) drugs or all drugs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    Right, i'm getting very ****ing tired of the sheer superiority OOZING from some of these posts.

    Either keep the topic on Cannabis and Martial Arts or don't bother posting.

    If you want an indept discussion on the legal status of drugs, your opinions on people who use them or anything else go to any of the other forums where such conversation is suitable.

    Cheers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Dragan wrote: »
    Right, i'm getting very ****ing tired of the sheer superiority OOZING from some of these posts.

    Either keep the topic on Cannabis and Martial Arts or don't bother posting.

    If you want an indept discussion on the legal status of drugs, your opinions on people who use them or anything else go to any of the other forums where such conversation is suitable.

    Cheers.

    O'k im anti recreational illegal drugs but know enough about them to give a fair opinion on them and martial arts, Cannabis slows down mental alertness in the short and long term so has to be negative towards rolling etc..the fitness that you lose due to smoking hash is obvious in any sport requiring cardio..

    personally people i know that are into smoking it are like cabbages after a smoke and are very slow to react to things, this is part of the attraction for some reason, long term users i know give off the impression that there slow, this obviously has to affect performance.

    In my opinion they are not beneficial to martial arts and certainly should not be encouraged.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Dragan wrote: »
    Either keep the topic on Cannabis and Martial Arts or don't bother posting.


    What is there to duscuss, its bad for the sport (all sports). Its bad for the user, the user's family, friends, community and training partners. Its bad.

    Btw, I've smoked weed once in the last twenty years (on a recent visit to Amsterdam), jeeze I'd no controls over even my basic functions so I couldn't imagine how people can train after a smoke. But then I'm not a regular user, and would never intend to be either.

    I guess to each their own, but personally I'm with Roper, HOBO & Cowzer. It has no place in my life, any part of it. And I fail to see how weed could have a place in sport either.

    D, I'm not "OOZING" sheer superiority here, but I'm the father of a 16yr old who, like HOBO's brother loves Martial Arts, its my opinion and I'll continue to press it home to my children is that drugs are for losers.


  • Posts: 14,379 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ive never rolled high but Eddie Bravo swears by it. Nick diaz beat Gomi when high, I cant imagine its as bad as some are making it out to be from a performance point of view!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    Ive never rolled high but Eddie Bravo swears by it. Nick diaz beat Gomi when high, I cant imagine its as bad as some are making it out to be from a performance point of view!

    erm, you can't argue with kila's post. He/she posted up studies supporting the assertion that it impairs performance. What you can or can't imagine has no bearing.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭jim o doom


    Boston wrote: »
    erm, you can't argue with kila's post. He/she posted up studies supporting the assertion that it impairs performance. What you can or can't imagine has no bearing.

    Kila posted clear evidence that I more or less agree with - however, clearly the reason that he is having difficulty imagining it's bearing is due to the fact that a CHAMPION is extolling it's virtues; a champion who has won fights wasted, correct?
    That there is CLEAR PHYSICAL EVIDENCE that it must not impair you THAT much..
    do you really think he is such a better fighter that he wins whilst so severely impaired, or alterntatively; it must not impair him that much. I can play games better when ruined; I don't train like that because I don't have the energy levels I feel I need to train & find it hard to push myself / but my phsyiological reactions to a substance are clearly different to this champion. Different things affect people in different ways.
    yes I know in general it slows most people down somewhat, but to state that you can't argue with kila's post is totally wrong. The poster who was confused may not have used a well defined argument, but the fact that a champion is using it and still winning seems like pretty solid evidence in itself.
    And to posters who are surprised/disgusted at two well respected athletes/martial artists/celebrities/ROLE MODELS FOR KIDS honestly talking about their lifestyles and how they live, roll and (gods no) abuse drugs; maybe they should approach it like many other athletes and abuse drugs in quite and LIE about it to the public. Plenty of other sportsmen use performance enhancing drugs which have side effects, look at the amount of doping in the tour de france?
    I am not excusing that behaviour but at least the two athletes in question are being open and honest about how they act & if they feel that it's something which is acceptable, then they should be talking openly about it.
    There are far too many people unwilling to talk about issues like this, or get up on a high horse to "protect their little babies from the dangrous outside world full of horrible drug using scum". I mean clearly the parents who have posted feel justified in preaching to us against drugs, why should these sportsmen not have the same right with regards to preaching to us about what they see as the good side? Does life as a parent grant you the sole right to decide how society should behave?


Advertisement